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Author Topic: Romerouk's Muller Replication  (Read 492884 times)

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I think there's a bit more going on with this flat area

Notice in this scope shot of Rom's theres noise or oscillation on his flat, his scope is not coping well with it, but just as the trace starts you can see 2 horizontal lines, and on each flat there is a haze?


Now when you look at my traces i have the start of a noise burst as well.

Could this be why each of his flat's has a different slope angle, it's just the scope capturing a moment in time and interpreting the noise/oscillation randomly.
   

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OK so it looks like switching transients my scope is not connected to any part of the drive circuit, although they connected to the same mains supply.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEhJkiOqOBw[/youtube]
   
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Duff,    that is not a quote, it is me sharing information with you that I received from romero in a PM over at overunity.com    I was asking him about the tilt of his waveform and I was thinking he may have forgoten to clip the probe ground clip and so I thought I was seeing the 50 Hz power grid interference, but he told me no that was not the case he had the probe and its ground clip connected, and he told me the conditions under which it was obtained like I stated.

@Peter,

good observation and question, however we should be aware that high frequency noise does not change the slope of the trace just makes the trace look wider.  I'm noticing on romero's waveform the second flat spot from the right looks realy fat, fatter than the others, so why would there be a larger noise burst there than the other segments?   could this tell us something about how his motor is firing?  Is it firing only once per revolution from the periffery magnets?   Do we know for sure he has perifery magnets for every rotor magnet?

EM
   

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Hi EM
Viewing the first Rom video on this thread 1:47-1:48 you can see 3 consecutive rotor magnets and each clearly has a periphery magnet, more can be seen, i cannot confirm everyone but most seem to have and i think therefore it's a good bet all have the magnets.

It would appear a source of noise is the coils themselves.
Yellow CH2 50mv/Div trace is connected straight across a coil
Red CH1 200mv/Div trace again is connected across a coil but with the probe tip connection of the coil also connected to one side of the bridge.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVHMnnWbnZo[/youtube]
   
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I think there's a bit more going on with this flat area

Could this be why each of his flat's has a different slope angle, it's just the scope capturing a moment in time and interpreting the noise/oscillation randomly.


Trying to catch up... (more problems than a barrel of monkeys here now)

I agree with more things going on elsewhere.

The interpreting done by scopes becomes a problem when looking this close. An analog scope will just swing the trace in reaction to signal change. This can have a displayed averaging effect, depending upon the scope and many other things. The thing to remember is an analog scope doesn't interpret anything any more than a D'Arsonval meter movement.

Digital scopes do much the same except they are more likely to display spikes where there may be none or where the signal is actually much wider - sampling rates, etc.

When looking as close as you have shown, I generally disregard the fine details displayed on a digital scope unless it can handle it.

Example: the noise you show on your video may also be from the diode junctions.

At the moment I'm looking into the coils becoming microphonic (that is, after I hitch-hike back home  :D ).
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
I fully believe the flat spot is between mags. One can simply see it.  ;] There is a very short time crossing tdc vs the in between. Especially if you know that 1 half of the wave is the field cutting one side of the coil, then the field cuts the other side of the coil causing the other half of the wave..

It could be slightly off center maybe due to coil,capacitance delay, but I cannot see far from it.  ;]

Mags

The flat spot seen in Romero's scope trace isn't caused by the weak spots between magnets. The flat spot seen in his trace occurs right after TDC.

.99


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The flat spot seen in Romero's scope trace isn't caused by the weak spots between magnets. The flat spot seen in his trace occurs right after TDC.

.99

Im listening. 

Mags
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Im listening.  

Mags

Know one yet knows what is causing the flat spot in Romero's scope trace (or at least no one has come out with an explanation), although there are a couple of theories. Note on the pic where "TDC Area" is labeled. Also, where I have labeled "sharp transition", is the point in-between the rotor magnets, and where the flat spot occurs, but there is something messing that up as well. The less space between rotor and stator, the more pronounced this "in-between magnets" flat spot appears with a "normal" setup.

.99



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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
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Know one yet knows what is causing the flat spot in Romero's scope trace (or at least no one has come out with an explanation), although there are a couple of theories. Note on the pic where "TDC Area" is labeled. Also, where I have labeled "sharp transition", is the point in-between the rotor magnets, and where the flat spot occurs, but there is something messing that up as well. The less space between rotor and stator, the more pronounced this "in-between magnets" flat spot appears with a "normal" setup.

.99
 

I am maybe speaking out of ignorance, but Bloch wall something comes to mind with this...that sharp transition, sort of as if a resistance or domain barrier gave way...then the flat spot, perhaps a balance of domains...the mythical 'tuning'?

Until I can get a scope on a build here, I'm lost as anyone, but I think this discussion about the scope shot is the most practical and realistic research about this device thus far. The semi-periodic cycling that seems to be going on, that slight wave in the mid peaks that has been pointed out is interesting as well. I did notice Romero's stator had a slight warp to it during the spin down in one of his videos, not sure if it was #1, or #2.

This is out on a limb, but why his stator was painted black has not been discussed much and since I've been cutting ferrite and generating plenty of dust, I've wondered if he added some ferrite 'pigment', on a lark. Might be more fantasy though.
   

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What if this is a "current" waveform, meaning a voltage measurement across a (1 Ohm) shunt resistor.
It surely looks like one.

Regards Itsu

   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
This I explained also..  When the rotor mag approaches the coil, only 1 half of the coil sees moving flux causing current in one direction in the coil as a whole.. The field is cutting the wires on 1/2 of the coil.. At tdc the flux is equal on both sides of the coil, same magnetic polarity, same direction. The currents cancel out at that time..  After tdc, the field cuts the other side of the coil reversing the currents.  the core is like a barrier to keep the flux from passing all the way through the core as it approaches and leaves, thus a + swing, then null, then a - swing. And the flat spot is no generation at all, err very very little, because the magnet is not near the coil.  Or we could say that 1 magnet is approaching and 1 is leaving, thus cancellation or null generation.   make sense?   ;]

mags
Magluvin, you may want to consider the following explanation:

From JLN:
Quote
During the approach phase of the North pole of the magnet (from the left to the coil axis), a North pole is created on the bottom surface of the coil (according to the Lenz law), this creates the negative voltage shown. When the North pole of the magnet leaves the axis of the coil, a South pole is created on the bottom surface of the coil (according to the Lenz law), this creates the positive voltage shown in the scope picture. The flux in the coil has been reversed in this case.

See the attached diagram (left) for which his description refers. I've added another diagram showing the side profile of the rotor magnet and core/coil.

.99


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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
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I dont get what your trying to tell me.. I see that tdc is the sharp transition in the gif above.  Is this not what I have stated?

Mags
   
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Also in the scope shot to the right in the gif, it shows only 1 hump. The field only cuts 1 side of the coil.

Do we know if the probe coil has a core?

Mags
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
I dont get what your trying to tell me.. I see that tdc is the sharp transition in the gif above.  Is this not what I have stated?

Mags
No. You see where I have labeled the scope shot "TDC AREA", yes?

What I'm trying to tell you is that you have TDC and "the space between magnets" areas reversed. The area labeled "SHARP TRANSITION" is actually the point in the trace where the coil is in-between magnets. It normally doesn't look like this, but something unknown at this time is causing that sharp transition.

.99


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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Also in the scope shot to the right in the gif, it shows only 1 hump. The field only cuts 1 side of the coil.

Do we know if the probe coil has a core?

Mags
It is an air-core.

I posted the link to JLN's web page for this, but here it is again:
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/mromexp.htm

The explanation for the right half of the diagram is there. To quote:
Quote
In the right case (orthogonal field (Mini-Romag Setup)), you may notice that the voltage induced is more positive than negative (asymmetrical) when the magnet crosses the middle of the tangent coil. During the approach phase of the North pole of the magnet (from the left to the middle of the coil), a North pole is created on the left surface of the coil (according to the Lenz law), this creates the negative voltage shown. During the exit phase of the North pole of the magnet (from the middle of the coil to the right), a South pole is created on the right surface of the coil (according to the Lenz law), this creates the negative voltage shown. The coil flux has never been reversed in this case. Now, look at the middle position (when the magnet crosses the middle of the coil). In this case, the orthogonal magnetic flux density drops to zero (this has been checked with a gauss meter). So the positive pulse induced in the coil is not due to the moving magnet, but it is generated by the collapse of the magnetic field (Back EMF)....In this case there is no magnetic coupling between the rotor (magnets) and the stator (coil) during the positive phase of the signal generated.

.99


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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
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Hey Point

Hmmm.  Well I guess things have changed. 

When I look a post 599   I read  "You can see in the video that TDC is dead in the linear side of my waveform and the flat in exactly in between magnets."

And in the vid on that post I see the trigger to show tdc is where?  Was there a mistake in the test in this post and it has been corrected since?

So a lot must have changed since

Also in jln's gif, the waveform on the left must not represent the tdc position of the mag n coil below it. And it is the left shot that represents the muller, no?    So his explanation may be different as to how it happens.  But I see tdc vs waveform in his gif that represents what I am in favor of, but you are representing as not.  Sorry if I am super stupid.

Or are we talking about different flat spots?  lol


Respectfully
Mags


Ps   the scope shot that you lay out that tdc is at the beginning of the flats, how are you determining those points?
   
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Mags,

How do you see either of the JLN examples relate to this motor?

Since the orientation between coil and magnet are not the same, I don't see it.

------

I get it. You folks are talking about the output of the probe coils, not the motor coils.
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Hmmm.  Well I guess things have changed.
I'm not aware of any change.

Quote
When I look a post 599   I read  "You can see in the video that TDC is dead in the linear side of my waveform and the flat in exactly in between magnets."
This is correct. Peter's wave form is a bit different at the peaks, but other than that it represents the typical wave form picked up from a generator coil, or a pair of generator coils in series adding.

Quote
Also in jln's gif, the waveform on the left must not represent the tdc position of the mag n coil below it. And it is the left shot that represents the muller, no?    So his explanation may be different as to how it happens.
Correct, JLN's test was performed with a single coil, not two coils sandwiching the rotor magnet as per the Muller/Romero dynamo. However, the result is identical as shown with Peter's and EM's, scope shots, and they used two coils.

Quote
But I see tdc vs waveform in his gif that represents what I am in favor of, but you are representing as not.
I don't know what you mean, but let me try to explain what might be the confusion; We are looking at two distinct wave forms; 1) that of the typical response captured by both Peter and EM et al, and 2) that of the wave form produced by Romero's setup; they are distinctly different despite the similarity at first glance.

Quote
Ps   the scope shot that you lay out that tdc is at the beginning of the flats, how are you determining those points?
There are two distinct characteristics that are give-aways as to which part of the wave form pertains to which position on the rotor. I have already shown in the following diagram how things look when all goes as expected (i.e. a conventional output wave form) (which you seemed in agreement with):

The range between points 5 and 6 with the gently-decreasing then increasing slopes is clearly the transition from the end of magnet one, to the beginning of magnet two. The rate of change of flux in this range is relatively low, and results in the "flatish" looking part of the trace.

The range between points 2 and 4 clearly indicate where the coil crosses each edge of the rotor magnet, passing across TDC in the middle. This area is characterized by a quasi-linear slope from one polarity to the opposite polarity.

Now, examine Romero's scope trace again and look for these two characteristics; you'll find that the first (between points 5 and 6) is there but it is distorted or interrupted by a sharp transition, and the second (between points 2 and 4) is completely altered by transposing or seemingly delaying the negative excursion beginning at TDC.

Does it make sense to you now?

.99


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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
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Oh   Ar you saying that the tdc shown in the long trace in the previous post on this page, Is Romeros pic and his detail of tdc? Where as what you have just posted, yes, i agree with.

Could there be a phase thing going on if the rotor is near the resonance(or lower harmonic) of the coil, that the coil could be leading the magnet giving the speedup?

Mags
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Oh   Ar you saying that the tdc shown in the long trace in the previous post on this page, Is Romeros pic and his detail of tdc? Where as what you have just posted, yes, i agree with.
The scope trace picture in Reply#627 (above) is of Romero's dynamo that he posted. The annotation to that picture was done by me. Romero did not convey any information regarding TDC etc. in regards to that scope trace, as far as I know.

Quote
Could there be a phase thing going on if the rotor is near the resonance(or lower harmonic) of the coil, that the coil could be leading the magnet giving the speedup?

Mags
At this point there are many possibilities that could be causing these irregularities IMHO. For eg. I'm not even ruling out the possibility of backfeed from another generator coil through the FWBR's (assuming no output filter cap).

.99


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Are you thinking that it could get back through the fwbr to apply drive force?  I thought of different configurations of the additional diodes, but i think if any were in any other direction other than copying the fwbr there would be a drain issue for the storage cap.


I wonder if Romero had measured a different gen coil if the wave form would be different.  Like if he is showing the gen coil that is just before a drive coil, maybe we are seeing an effect in the wave form due to the motor drain.  I dont know if that would show up on the gen coil shots.

Mags
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Are you thinking that it could get back through the fwbr to apply drive force?  I thought of different configurations of the additional diodes, but i think if any were in any other direction other than copying the fwbr there would be a drain issue for the storage cap.
I'm thinking more along the possible idea of one gen coil pair affecting the output (and Lenz-effect) of another gen coil pair, via backfeed.

.99


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It would be good then to see some current traces.

mags
   
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New Info from Romero,  I asked about the tilt in his waveform and if his CRT Oscilloscope possibly has a tilt in the deflection coils or if other things are happening like an influence from the dynamo magnetic fields upon the electron beam.


His answer in a nutshell:  

It's possible the apparent tilt of the voltage waveform is due to some influence from the dynamo magnetic fields due to proximity or possibly something else  (but not missalignment of the CRT oscilloscope, it's working just fine)


EM
« Last Edit: 2011-07-06, 01:37:18 by EMdevices »
   
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