@ALL
I need some guidance [no kiddin Chet!! [MH]
I need to build a variable transformer that can put out 1-2 KW constant duty between 50 -120 hz needs very clean sine wave?
I have been told something like this can be built from available components from scrap heat pumps... or at least get real close with some custom Mods?
Is this possible ?
Plausible?
THX
Chet
Just go buy a transformer large enough to meet your power requirements.
Any progress with Lucky 7?
MH
Not sure I can buy one of these ,I'm probably not describing it properly?
I suppose a signal generator that put out 2kw at any frequency between 50HZ and 120 HZ would be a better description.Sorta Like a VFO in the ELF range ?
Why you gotta get all "Lucky 7" on me ?? [not sure? IpZee ItYeah............]
If I can build this transformer we can do it right here ! And I absolutely will test this out!
Ok, so you are talking about a high-power AC power source that can output a variable-frequency clean sine wave. It sounds like you are looking for something for Mr. COP 7 if I dare say so.
Perhaps a big fat variable-speed motor connected to a standard generator could do it, as a "hack." It's a super long shot.
The real thing from some company that makes stuff like this for industry would cost a small fortune.
I really don't see a solution for you Chet. Walk away or just throw the problem back at the person that is asking you for help. You are not technical, he is asking the wrong person. My advice is not not waste your time on this. You are a good person and you do good things, but this one is not for you.
The equipment that Does this already belongs to the inventor.
Doing this on the cheap is an idea to have others replicate ,And supposedly most of whats necessary lies in the belly of todays modern heat pumps ?[something about bridges, IGBT's and Chewin gum]?
There's no walking away in Baseball..............
And there is no way in Hades I am walking away from this!
I have some design ideas I want to try,But first I want to see "the Goods" !
THX
Chet
Chet these days you can find a car audio amp up to 10kw, sub amps mostly.
In the 1kw to 2kw you can find class D amps of decent quality for $500 and up. May find a deal on ebay. They are near 90% eff compared to bipolar amps. Some can run loads down to 1/2 and 1/4 ohm.
Then you can use your PC as a variable sig gen to the amp. Lots of sig gen software out there.
Why the need for so much input?
Mags
All of these are from reputable manufacturers
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rockford-Fosgate-P1000X1D-1000-Watts-Monoblock-Class-D-Punch-Series-Amplifier-/200698219946?pt=Car_Amplifiers&hash=item2eba8bcdaa
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NWT-350-Pioneer-GM-D8500M-1200-Watt-Class-D-Power-Amplifier-Best-/190628418403?pt=Car_Amplifiers&hash=item2c6256d363
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-KICKER-WX10000-1-AMPLIFIER-CLASS-D-MONO-AMP-10-000W-/330668118113?pt=Car_Amplifiers&vxp=mtr&hash=item4cfd5b1061 :D
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kicker-ZX2500-1-2500-Watt-RMS-Class-D-Mono-Block-Car-Amplifier-Amp-11ZX25001-/390349366540?pt=Car_Amplifiers&hash=item5ae2a2a50c
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nakamichi-PM-1400-1-Car-1-Chanel-Class-D-Power-Amplifier-1Ch-Mono-/120639970537?pt=Car_Audio_Video&vxp=mtr&hash=item1c16b3dce9 real nice ;]
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MTX-TE1501D-THUNDER-ELITE-SERIES-CLASS-D-MONO-AMPLIFIER-3000W-PEAK-POWER-/300609131606?pt=Car_Amplifiers&hash=item45fdb35456
http://www.ebay.com/itm/US-AMPS-MD3D-MERLIN-MONOBLOCK-4000-WATTS-CLASS-D-CAR-AUDIO-AMPLIFIER-/380402927249?pt=UK_In_Car_Technology&hash=item5891c80691
Mags
Quote from: ramset on 2012.01.18, 02:15:09
MH
Not sure I can buy one of these ,I'm probably not describing it properly?
I suppose a signal generator that put out 2kw at any frequency between 50HZ and 120 HZ would be a better description.Sorta Like a VFO in the ELF range ?
...
Use an audio amp (following a signal generator):
http://www.govgroup.com/pyle-audio-pea6000-power-amplifier-2390453-prd1.htm
Be careful about the power that is announced. Only RMS power is significant. Note also that these power amplifiers are designed for a low output impedance, so the output voltage is not very high. An 50 or 60hz ordinary transformer could also be needed to rise the voltage.
Thanks guys for mentioning car audio amplifiers. I had recommended that solution to PhysicsProf just a few months ago and it completely slipped my mind.
Car audio is mind-boggling.
1965: I just got my new all-transistor car radio and it's really boss! It has 10 watts of pure transistor power!
2012: My trunk is packed with audio gear. I am running 5 kilowatts total and 40% of my gas is used so I can listen to my MP3s!
QuoteI am running 5 kilowatts
Crikey i am surprised we don't need TO TYPE IN CAPITALS SO YOU CAN HERE US >:-)
Quote from: ramset on 2012.01.18, 02:15:09
I suppose a signal generator that put out 2kw at any frequency between 50HZ and 120 HZ
What quality do you need? For Davey type work, I would imagine low would do.
Could not someone design a simple sig-gen from a chip and then feed it into heavy
duty transistors?
In principle, it should be easy. Hefty heat sinks might be called for.
Keep your eyes open on ebay for a single phase variable frequency drive controller
Something like this is could be what you want
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Inverter-Delta-VFD-015M21A-1-5-kW-Spindle-Motor-NEW-/160715196710?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item256b5f4926
maybe this one although it talks about a carrier and i am not sure if this can be turned off or not
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VARIABLE-FREQUENCY-DRIVE-INVERTER-VFD-NEW-3HP-2-2KW-l7-/170636140761?pt=BI_Electrical_Equipment_Tools&hash=item27bab4e0d9
Thank you all for your contributions!
Everything is still in the works RE "Movies" plus a Transformer build thread! which is very good news for this project!!
{Big Sigh of relief From Chet}
@Mags Thanks............
Chet
Quote from: ramset on 2012.01.17, 23:57:33
@ALL
I need some guidance [no kiddin Chet!! [MH]
I need to build a variable transformer that can put out 1-2 KW constant duty between 50 -120 hz needs very clean sine wave?
I have been told something like this can be built from available components from scrap heat pumps... or at least get real close with some custom Mods?
Is this possible ?
Plausible?
THX
Chet
Well, for my 2 cents, I wired high voltage transformers onto soda bottles with inexpensive paper masking tape and popsicle stick shims(free!) to stiffen the whole affair. Four 1/2 liter Coke bottles taped with their tops together and then 2 sets with their bottoms together, shimmed in the middle were about 4' long (1 1/3 meters?). With 24 ga. speaker wire torn in half to double the length, the turns being spaced 1/2" apart, it took about 40 feet to wire the whole length. I lost them all when I moved this last time.
Now,
if you want, you can do something similar, and then take separate sections and use each junction between each individual tramsformer to tap off coils and vary the turns ratio that way.
Oh, you can't beat the cost factor, but I admit they're a real Kluge solution and time consuming to build as well. Money was an issue for me then, and still is now. These were for a special project.
--Lee
Initially it sounded like you wanted a Variac. Would that not work? Sometimes you can get deals on them for a very good price on fleabay. I got one new at a garage sale that can handle 3kw for $5 .... but then I tend to be lucky sometimes. Then again that second VFD Peterae posted seems like an amazingly good price if you can get by the sellers poor English.
Ok
A little history that will perhaps explain the "Need" better!
The Savic device is tuned to the mains [An amazingly hard thing to get right] no electronics of any kind required!
The Other device took a 180 approach............What ever frequency rings the can ....read it and send it back to make the can ring.
So it eliminates the whole Stradivarius Hand tuning deal and makes for a perfect match every time! The ability to dial up or down a nice clean sine wave and watch for results as opposed to sanding and guessing
Makes this the only viable approach.
I've been told [today]info on building this Transformer should be forthcoming . {somebody is doing much to much themselves]!
Chet
The best way to determine the self
resonant frequency of any object is
to "pluck" it or "strike" it as one would
a guitar string or a bell.
A very sharp impulse will enable the
object to "ring" with a damped oscillation.
Timing the impulses to sustain the oscillation
is then very easy.
Quote from: ramset on 2012.01.18, 18:37:06
Ok
A little history that will perhaps explain the "Need" better!
The Savic device is tuned to the mains [An amazingly hard thing to get right] no electronics of any kind required!
The Other device took a 180 approach............What ever frequency rings the can ....read it and send it back to make the can ring.
So it eliminates the whole Stradivarius Hand tuning deal and makes for a perfect match every time! The ability to dial up or down a nice clean sine wave and watch for results as opposed to sanding and guessing
Makes this the only viable approach.
I've been told [today]info on building this Transformer should be forthcoming . {somebody is doing much to much themselves]!
Chet
??? So I take it that the video is not going to happen... and that you have not taken on board a single word of what has been said about why tuning in air is meaningless if you intend to submerge the thing in water? C.C I officially throw in the towel... Now where's that wall for me to bang my head against!
Movie
Still Happening
Tuning ....That too!
A variable frequency drive transformer is supposed to be "Just what the Doctor ordered",And this whole approach sounds better given how things might go off a bit underwater?
I would imagine the frequency would still be the same to ring the can underwater ,it would be Dampened a bit !
I have decided to be patient and not pester the inventor .....
That's a no pester Chester approach.
THX
Chet
Quote from: ramset on 2012.01.18, 18:37:06
The Other device took a 180 approach............What ever frequency rings the can ....read it and send it back to make the can ring.
This was proposed at the 2008 UK Free Energy Conference. Particularly useful for using up bowls
which are tuned to each other but have been tuned too high for the mains. Also for an
application whcih needs to run off a battery rather than the mains.
But a big part of Davey is to use your mains "as is".
Quote from: ramset
...
A variable frequency drive transformer is supposed to be "Just what the Doctor ordered",And this whole approach sounds better given how things might go off a bit underwater?
I would imagine the frequency would still be the same to ring the can underwater ,it would be Dampened a bit !
I have decided to be patient and not pester the inventor .....
That's a no pester Chester approach.
THX
Chet
A sinusoidal electrical driver may not be
necessary for this application.
Building a bi-polar variable frequency pulsing
driver (with adjustable pulse width/duty cycle)
would be relatively easy.
Once resonance has been acquired the applied
driving waveshape is unimportant so long as the
pulse width is not excessive. Short pulses are quite
effective.
Pulsed input (Class C) will drive a resonant circuit
much more efficiently than a sinusoidal Class A or
Class AB Linear.
An output transformer would be unnecessary.
Quote from: Dumped on 2012.01.19, 02:05:50
A sinusoidal electrical driver may not be
necessary for this application.
Once resonance has been acquired the applied
driving waveshape is unimportant so long as the
pulse width is not excessive. Short pulses are quite
effective.
Pulsed input (Class C) will drive a resonant circuit
much more efficiently than a sinusoidal Class A or
Class AB Linear.
An output transformer would be unnecessary.
This seems correct and a very good point.
QuoteBuilding a bi-polar variable frequency pulsing
driver (with adjustable pulse width/duty cycle)
would be relatively easy.
I sure would like to see how you do this, if it is relatively easy!
Note the requirement still of high input power to get the device started... roughly around 400-500 W input power.
Another approach would be to modify a cheap inverter (e.g., square wave output) to allow for controllable frequency. Any ideas on that approach?
Quote from: PhysicsProf
I sure would like to see how you do this, if it is relatively easy!
Note the requirement still of high input power to get the device started... roughly around 400-500 W input power.
Another approach would be to modify a cheap inverter (e.g., square wave output) to allow for controllable frequency. Any ideas on that approach?
Yes, many of the inexpensive inverters do
have an "H Bridge" output which produces
the alternating modified sine wave (pulsed
alternations.) By modifying the pulse generator
which drives the H Bridge to the desired pulsing
frequency and pulse width it would be accomplished.
Or, an H Bridge (or a Half Bridge) could be built from
scratch with the necessary pulse generator chip to
drive it.
The bridge itself could be made with conventional
high voltage transistors or with IGBTs.
Some useful details...
This supposed to be a simple device based on two bike bells or a beer can, or two spoons, or whatever, powered by a mains supply? If it worked as claimed (and I don't for one minute believe it does) then the simplicity of the device was what made it attractive.
So why now has it become so technical and complicated if it works in its simple form - I mean what is all this about a transformer that varies the mains frequency. ??? The transformer would require far more time effort and technical skill to make than the bloody boiler... I'm totally baffled by all this, can somebody with half-a-brain please explain to me what the hell is going on! :(
Quote from: Farrah Day on 2012.01.19, 08:38:52
This supposed to be a simple device based on two bike bells or a beer can.
I think the problem is that there are three projects that are different and are getting
muddled up.
1. Davey's first patent does not even mention frequencies and tuning.
2. The bells. They hare tuned to ring at (usually) three octaves above
local mains frequency, either 400hz or 480hz.
3. The beer can or IKEA thermos flask. This is a radically different variant.
Also mixed in is the notion, expressed in 2008 at the UKFEC that two bells,
well tuned together, could simply be fed with the frequency that they ring
at.
Paul-R
@FarrahDay
QuoteThe transformer would require far more time effort and technical skill to make than the bloody boiler... I'm totally baffled by all this, can somebody with half-a-brain please explain to me what the hell is going on!
I believe what the hell is going on is called science, you see it is hard to dismiss the logic that if two beer cans can ring at X frequency and produce unusual phenomena then rather than tune the cans to a frequency we may tune the frequency to the cans, equal yet opposite. Rather than spend hours upon hours trying to tune the cans mechanically we simply tune them electrically giving us a great range of variability which is essential in the process of invention or when seeking answers to unknown questions which is science.
As well instead of spending endless hours trying to mechanically tune the cans we could spend all of $30 to buy two N channel 200v/50A and two P channel 200v/50A mosfets, a 200v/50A FWB, a 555 timer, two mosfet drivers and a few smoothing caps to build a 3Kw variable frequency AC/DC/pulsed DC supply -- add another $6 for variable output voltage. Now if a person wanted to get creative we could also use an Arduino usb microcontroller to simultaneously sweep one frequency range or multiple frequencies while monitoring a hall effect sensor which senses vibrations of the cans which are partially saturated by a permanent magnetic field. In which case we would simply program the microcontroller to automatically sweep through a massive number of frequency combinations and log the frequency(s) and the output from the hall effect sensor and possibly a temperature sensor in the serial monitor for number crunching in a spread sheet. All for less than $70 and which could also be used for many other experiments or projects as well, ain't science and technology wonderful.
I guess the first question we need to ask is what is our time worth?
Regards
AC
AC
Now that's a nice post !You are also in agreement with the Ikea Boiler inventor,This VFO or whatever you call it will be useful in other ares of experimentation![the tK device was mentioned].
I believe the inventor feels there is much room for advancing the COP of his boiler ,and this transformer will allow others to contribute towards that advancement.[the" little Red Hen" thing gets old]
THX
Chet
And the madness goes on, and on. Wall... head...banging!
Farrah
Quote:
goes on, and on. Wall... head...banging!
---------------------------------------------------
HHMMmmmmmmm
Would you like to apply for the Overunity Prize??
Is that CCW OR CW Head banging?
what Hemisphere are you in?
Are you using batter ies [MH loves Those]
Any Vids/Movies??
How can you prove t goes ON and ON and ON.............
?
:D
Chet
PS
I brought you a wesley movie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mn8TLBsR3r0
I find these really help maintain resonance with head bangers!!
A multileaved caduceus coil:
http://keelynet.com/time/cadsmith.htm (http://keelynet.com/time/cadsmith.htm)
GK
Nice movie..........
Somebody cut out the "Money Shot"??
Cosmolv Huh??
Giantkiller:
What was that? Coil soft porn?
Chet:
My feelings are that this project to make a variable-frequency high-powered high-voltage AC power source is a further descent into the theater of the absurd. I am betting that nobody you are associated with is remotely capable of doing this properly. I am also wondering about how you are going to measure the energy into the device under test. Perhaps a Kill-a-Watt meter expects 50 or 60 Hz and won't work at other frequencies. Then you are royally screwed. If you don't have a viable solution to measure the energy going into the device ahead of time then what the hell?
I seriously wonder if the Serbian guy is the free energy equivalent to a person that has an irrational compulsion to steal women's underwear off of clothes lines. And when they finally catch him he has panties and bras up to the ceiling in his apartment. How do you know this guy isn't a nutcase? I know that I am repeating myself here but look at what you are doing! This is a new development, another yanking of the marionette strings. The data and information that he has been providing to you from the beginning has been ridiculous. He has zero credibility.
Anyway, I am hot going to stop you, just express my exasperation. This whole thing is going to implode.
MileHigh
See.............
Poorly informed [you]!
Its not your fault ...We the willing have an almost savant like ability to juggle several renderings at once!!
You will soon graduate to over unity headbanging unless I explain [it will probably sound like I'm speaking in Tongues to you..........]
----------------------------------------------------------
Here goes
In the beginning there was peter Davey thread ,,,We OOOo ed And AWWWED and got all excited...During this time Slovenia made a friend in Serbia whilst researching the Davey heater.
This Friend said "Hey I know all about that "" I built something much better " I heat my home for yrs now with it ,heres how you build one1
Slovenia starts a thread at Energetic ,Chet Joins in [of course] and we start scrounging for serbian beer cans [as per prof Savics instructions] there was a brief period where slovenia found out the info was for his ears only.[we'll skip that]
Any Hoo Weeks go by [a few] and somebody shows up from the shadows and says "hey You don't need to sand beer cans " [silly boyz]
We can run it the other way around Find the frequency of the can and send it back.
So you see this is nothing new at all ...It has been this way for 10-12 weeks .improving all the time ....With Much Much more room for improvement!!
Movies are coming so are Transformer threads...So is open source!!
Chet
Quote from: ramset on 2012.01.20, 00:49:07
During this time Slovenia made a friend in Serbia whilst researching the Davey heater.
This Friend said "Hey I know all about that "" I built something much better " I heat my home for yrs now with it ,heres how you build one
The Serbian guy has heated his home for years with beer cans... Really? And told you how to do it... Really? And yet none of you can do it? Why is that then?
So rather than build it the way it is known (claimed) to work, you guys are now talking about building complex frequency variable transformers ???
This has got to be the biggest joke on these forums since the Fast Freddy saga. You people are continually bouncing back and forth between the absurd and the ridiculous... the goalposts are forever moving, and not one of you seems the slightest bit bothered by this. It is like you are all blinkered and blind to the reality of this. This is a side of human nature that I cannot fathom. You people are clinging to this for dear life, yet not one of you has a working prototype that has proved the claims. You talk it up, hype it up, and shirk our comments responding with quips as if we are the insane ones here. It is all wearing a little thin now.
I Never found the Serbian Can mentioned in Savics PDF [absolutely can't get one over here]
I don't have 220 50 HZ Where I live.
So given just those two problems I would be off to a half assed replication , Chester don't play that game [no time for Games or the resources to waste].
I chose to replicate the device that solves these problems for me,And I will!
The Aborigines went 50 thousand years with out discovering the wheel ,They never did......
I'm sure they were all good with that!
Some of us are different we learn to improvise ..... and others pay attention to those improvisations!!
Chet
@FarrahDay
QuoteSo rather than build it the way it is known (claimed) to work, you guys are now talking about building complex frequency variable transformers
Variable frequency power supplies are actually very easy to build, perhaps the fact you have never tried to build one or do not know how is your problem.
QuoteThis has got to be the biggest joke on these forums since the Fast Freddy saga. You people are continually bouncing back and forth between the absurd and the ridiculous... the goalposts are forever moving, and not one of you seems the slightest bit bothered by this.
Oh I have seen much sillier things in the forums and in the science journals and the news, it's all relatively silly and absurd.
QuoteThis is a side of human nature that I cannot fathom
You mean innovation and creativity?, is that the part you cannot fathom?.
QuoteYou talk it up, hype it up, and shirk our comments responding with quips as if we are the insane ones here. It is all wearing a little thin now.
We are all a little insane Farrah, however the ones who are truely insane are the ones who think they ain't.
And what would you have all of them do? should they follow your personal flavor of pipe dream or sit around watching TV all day?, what exactly are you arguing against here Farrah?, is it the fact that some people are trying to make a difference and have decided not to dedicate their life to screwing their fellow man for a profit?. You seem to have little purpose here other than to tell people they are stupid and misguided and that they should just do nothing which in my books is insane.
Regards
AC
Well said, AC:
Quotewhat exactly are you arguing against here Farrah?, is it the fact that some people are trying to make a difference and have decided not to dedicate their life to screwing their fellow man for a profit?. You seem to have little purpose here other than to tell people they are stupid and misguided and that they should just do nothing which in my books is insane.
Regards
AC
@ALL
I ask for advice and help here all the time,I am a man of limited means and I have no formal education in Electronics beyond what I had to learn 40 yrs ago to repair aircraft.
A lot has changed since then...........
I need and welcome all the help I can get Including MH and Farrah ,they have helped me over the years to use what little smarts I have for vetting out things that might have otherwise wasted my time.
This Boiler is the culmination of that education..I have twisted and wrestled with many aspects of the device and chased down all manner of What ifs ,in regard to how it could be tricking meters and such.
It is the very first thing I have decided to build.
I have gained enough knowledge from the folks here vetting fakes as well as poor measuring techniques being responsible for most eureka claims.
Plus I have a ton of experience in test protocol and procedure.
That being said... IT works!!..... I know it ....the man that Designs and builds Heat pumps for a living knows it [Mr.ikea].
And hopefully all of you here and elsewhere will know it soon enough.
Please don't quibble ..this is going to be Fun!!
We need not self destruct our friendships ...or casual forum relationships .
All are here to learn ,Some are here to teach.
I am just happy to be here period.
Thank you all
Chet
Hoping to have some info tomorrow.
THX
Chet
He who succeeds has many friends...
Quote from: allcanadian on 2012.01.20, 14:06:18
@FarrahDay
...
We are all a little insane Farrah, however the ones who are truely insane are the ones who think they ain't.
...
You seem to have little purpose here other than to tell people they are stupid and misguided and that they should just do nothing which in my books is insane.
Are we here to kindly converse about chimera, to play with electronics stuff, or to build a machine that works and gives energy?
If the second point is our goal, then the physical reality put constraints against our imagination and we have to take it into account. We are all insane but there are differences in the level of insanity: accepting the constraints of Nature, or denying them. The second attitude never permits successful projects.
When we see a kid who builds a sand castel while hoping to stop the waves of the rising tide, we don't say him that he will fail. He will have fun, and we too by looking at his enthousiasm. And even if we said him that he will fail, he wants to do it anyway. Only later he will understand his mistake.
Now we are not kids. If someone said that planets attract one another with a 1/r
3 force law, and that using this 1/r
3 law could give free energy, and that we have no free energy because scientists won't accept that this law of 1/r
3 is the right one, we must inform him that it is not the case, all observations until now show that the law is in 1/r
2 and that if this law is false (and GR proved it is formally false), the falseness concerns only some far decimals. As well, if someone makes an experiment, shows us results and says it is free energy or the way to free energy, while obviously the results can be perfectly explained according to the current academic knowledge, he must be told that he discovered nothing and that he misinterpreted what is for a long time known by less ignorant people.
But when I said "we are not kids", I have doubts. Because in spite the fact that some are informed about their mistakes or their unfounded ideas, they don't want understand, they want absolutely build their sand castle to stop the rising tide while every one is expecting for them to invent the concrete tetrapod.
Sometimes this stuff makes me think of a Nature documentary I saw once showing a migration of moose and their young calves. It's late Spring and they come to a river crossing. The river is wide and fast because of the Spring runoff. The cows swim across with their calves. If they loose contact and the cows can't find their calves, they will swim back. Most of the herd gets across okay. At the end of the day you are left with cows swimming back and forth, back and forth, hoping to find their calves. As sad sight, a macabre dance of Nature with moose swimming back and forth and going nowhere.
This is not science, nor is it making a difference. Like Exnihiloest stated, this is people not accepting the constraints of Nature.
And I am continuously baffled that PhysicsProf can endorse these cockamamie schemes that have no possible rational basis for working when you look at the basic physics behind them.
This is a waste of human potential energy on something that can't possibly work because of statements of hearsay made by people, some of them with no technical credibility at all.
My perspective is to just sit back and watch the show. I have worries for the safety of people trying to build some kind of multi-kilowatt output device and for the possibility of being electrocuted. However, they are all adults and if that's what they want to do, that's what they will do.
It's going to be a "really big sheww."
MileHigh
Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012.01.21, 14:24:49
accepting the constraints of Nature, or denying them.
Your algorithm is limited by the variables defined.
Quote
The second attitude never permits successful projects.
Not always correct. In most cases it forbids success. In a very few cases, it is the only means of success. In a few more cases, it improves the chance of success.
We must admit the chances of having any success when not accepting the 'accepted' constraints of Nature are extremely limited.
Just remember that a few folks consider a forced reading from the science scripture no better than the local religious cult member repeatedly knocking on his door.
Such a repeat knocking requires yet another slamming door.
C.C
Various people know the "constraints" of Nature to varying degrees, and undertaking experiments to explore those constraints is what science is all about. In fact, the silliest experiments might reveal something previously unobserved.
For example, a few here are so sure that only a resistive type of power dissipation is occurring in these heaters, and not stopping to think that electricity facilitates chemical reactions that may or may not be exothermic, not stopping to think that perhaps rapid bubble formation is an impulse that can excite an acoustic resonant cavity, not stopping to think that varying pressures require various latent heats to vaporize water, not stopping to think that perhaps, etc...etc.. etc.. whatever else we never thought of...
For the sake of argument, let's say that nothing else is occurring, but simply resistive heating. There are still so many variables to be learned by a careful exploration of this type of heating. For example, I'm curious to know how electricity stops flowing when a bubble begins to form, because "obviously" vapor might not conduct electricity, so the varying resistance changes the current draw, and these changes could be impulsive, and thus not register on a typical watt meter which might expect a nice 60 Hz waveform. Do you see what you can come up with if you let your mind wonder and ask questions?
So don't be so closed minded, because that makes one look boring!
EM
PS, Regarding these forums, everyone should be thankful that others are willing to share the results of their experiments, no matter how silly, or how complicated. That's free stuff for you which has cost somebody time and money, so the proper response is THANK YOU, and not YOU STUPID IDIOT, DIDN'T YOU KNOW THAT ALREADY!
@exnihiloest
QuoteIf the second point is our goal, then the physical reality put constraints against our imagination and we have to take it into account. We are all insane but there are differences in the level of insanity: accepting the constraints of Nature, or denying them.
Here's a question, if the physical reality put's constraints against our imagination then why does our imagination remove them?. You see at one time it was physically impossible that a machine which was heavier than air could fly through the air then someone imagined an airplane, it was physically impossible that a person could fly in an airplane at high altitude then they imagined pressurized cabins, it was physically impossible that a craft could travel to the moon because there was no air for their propellers to beat against and then someone imagined a rocket. Our imagination has always changed the physical reality we believed to be true throughout our history and it seems comical that each and every generation believed that their generation was the one which had everything figured out, that they knew the truth and could not possibly be wrong about anything but they always are. Why should we be any different considering our history? You see we have overwhelming proof in our history that we have usually been wrong about damn near everything so why should we be any different?.
I think the confusion starts when someone proves something as a fact from their perspective and then tries to pretend they are detached from the situation and that there perspective does not matter. It goes like this --- I think I am 100% certain these are the proven facts and I think my thinking cannot effect the facts despite the fact my thinking determined them. It's denial and delusion in the same instance which is why throughout our history everyone has always said they were always correct about everything and in almost every case they have always been proven wrong. We are no exception ;D
Regards
AC
Quote from: ramset on 2012.01.20, 16:52:44
That being said... IT works!!..... I know it ....the man that Designs and builds Heat pumps for a living knows it [Mr.ikea].
But here's the thing Chet, and it's the key thing, the most important thing of all... and that is the fact that, YOU DON'T KNOW IT WORKS...do you? You are simply choosing not to believe that it won't work!
You have been told by total strangers that it works, but the REALITY of this is that neither you, or any of your buddies, actually have a working device. So why would you say that you KNOW it works? ???
I may seem like the harbinger of doom and gloom with all my negative comments, but give me something to be positive about and you may see a different side of me. It's just that we've heard it all before - so many times - and some of us get frustrated by ridiculous claims that are never backed up by anything other than foolishness and hot air. It just gets annoying. And irrespective of what the likes of AC, says with his fanciful posts, the reality is that none of you seem to exhibit even a modicum of science education or show any scientific or technical ability whatsoever. It's a bit like watching an extended episode of the Muppets!
What would make a bit of difference would be if one of you actually posted something even remotely related to real science for us to work with. But this never happens. What does happen is exactly the opposite: multiple unrelated frequencies depicted, with no explanation of why or what they relate to; the total dismissal of resistive heating; bells, spoons, beer cans, Ikea flasks; the fact that you are trying to tune something in air, that you are then going to bolt into a container submerged in water... huh! You are all totally oblivious to the issues and furthermore you all choose to ignore our posts that point out these issues. And of course there's the neutrinos! >:(
I say again Chet, you do not know this works... really, do you? You are relying solely on what people have told you, (I build heat pumps... so of course I have a working sonic boiler!) and you are trusting these people implicitly. However, the simple truth is this: although this device may work in 'Chet's World', in the 'Real World' it has not yet been proven to do so, and from what I've seen, I really don't see that changing in the near future.
@EM, strangely enough I'm not in disagreement with your post at all, even given the likelihood it was generally aimed at me.
In fact if Chet, or one of his buddies, gave a little more thought to what 'might' be happening with this device and 'why', and threw in some supporting science that may relate to the device, then things might just progress a little more agreeably. I myself have not dismissed the possibility of cavitation occurring, as I posted a good while back, but resistive heating clearly has to play a major role. But it is the Cloud-Cuckoo-Land brigade who seem to have no grasp on any kind of science whatsoever, and who have no intention of acknowledging any science whatsoever, and who serve only to muddy the waters with nonsense, that do the biggest injustice to such devices and their claims.
Hence the problem is not the device per se. The problem - for myself at least - is the fact that someone is claiming COP 12 and saying ithe device is being energised by neutrinos, whilst failing to provide any supporting science to back up these claims - and of course the fact that no one involved sees issues with these claims or even questions them. And it does not help the cause that the device itself appears to be in a continual state of flux with design parameters forever changing.
All I'm saying is that the uneducated ramblings and mindless postings all go to undermine the device, to a point whereby to my mind - whether it works or not - it has become a laughing stock.
Quote from: exnihiloest
...
When we see a kid who builds a sand castel while hoping to stop the waves of the rising tide, we don't say him that he will fail. He will have fun, and we too by looking at his enthousiasm. And even if we said him that he will fail, he wants to do it anyway. Only later he will understand his mistake.
...
But when I said "we are not kids", I have doubts. Because in spite the fact that some are informed about their mistakes or their unfounded ideas, they don't want understand, they want absolutely build their sand castle to stop the rising tide while every one is expecting for them to invent the concrete tetrapod.
Some of us built our castles of sand
on the beach just to see how the
tide and waves would tear it apart...
You know how boys are - we like to watch
things being demolished. Or to break things.
There are lessons there too.
Quote from: MileHigh
...
And I am continuously baffled that PhysicsProf can endorse these cockamamie schemes that have no possible rational basis for working when you look at the basic physics behind them.
This is a waste of human potential energy on something that can't possibly work because of statements of hearsay made by people, some of them with no technical credibility at all.
PhysicsProf is indeed encouraging an unbiased
scientific examination of the various claims.
This is what professors do. Encourage scientific
due process in order to ultimately discover the
truth in any matter.
While some may think of this as a waste of time
(in accordance with pre-judgment principles) is it
really? Thankfully someone is willing to expend the
necessary time and effort to set matters straight
and in the process develop documented proofs.
True Science is testing all things and reserving
judgment until all of the "facts" are established.
We must set aside prior experiences and prejudices
and foregone conclusions in order to be truly
scientific.
Quote from: MileHigh
My perspective is to just sit back and watch the show. I have worries for the safety of people trying to build some kind of multi-kilowatt output device and for the possibility of being electrocuted. However, they are all adults and if that's what they want to do, that's what they will do.
It's going to be a "really big sheww."
MileHigh
"Just sit back and watch the show" with a
large volume of sideline chatter. Of course,
there is nothing necessarily wrong with that;
and your worries which find expression as a
doting mother would harangue over an errant son
are truly well intentioned it seems.
But, the day that MileHigh "just sits back" will be
the day!
Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012.01.21, 14:24:49
When we see a kid who builds a sand castel while hoping to stop the waves of the rising tide, we don't say him that he will fail. He will have fun, and we too by looking at his enthousiasm. And even if we said him that he will fail, he wants to do it anyway. Only later he will understand his mistake.
Let's have the same scenario with a twist. This time you are being stuck in the sand with just the head sticking out. lol This is more resemble of the reality situation.
How about we give this one until June 30th? So by the end of the first half of 2012, will this be declared success or failure? If nothing comes of it there will be no victory to claim. It's just "normalness" happening again. Whichever way it turns out, all can speak up and address the issue. On some levels the world is really boring and for most living things Nature is short, brutal, and harsh. I suppose that you could throw in "normal" also.
Who is "imagining better?" It would be nice to hear the proponents and opponents chime in when the clock runs out.
Quotethe reality is that none of you seem to exhibit even a modicum of science education or show any scientific or technical ability whatsoever. It's a bit like watching an extended episode of the Muppets!
Farrah will you stop the insults, the above statement tags everyone and there is just no need for it.
What are you doing here on OUR really? Any useful research?
Quote from: allcanadian on 2012.01.21, 20:55:03
@exnihiloest
Here's a question, if the physical reality put's constraints against our imagination then why does our imagination remove them?. You see at one time it was physically impossible that a machine which was heavier than air could fly through the air
...
This is a common misinterpretation of what Lord Kelvin (and also J. W. Rayleigh) said, a falsification of the History.
People were not so idiot or naive, even at the time of Kelvin: every one knew that birds fly and that birds are heavier than air.
What Kelvin said, after having calculated the weight of flying machines, is that there was no way to make fly a machine heavier than air, with the heavy motors of his time.
But we perfectly know that the improvement of the technology can allow machines that were not possible in the past. The impossibilities of the past can be realities of the present. It is a triviality.
Now it is one thing to "imagine" that objects will be perhaps possible and another to build them at the time they are imagined.
Nobody prevent you to do science fiction or futurology. But we are not here for that. We are here to produce real machines buildable with the means of our time. For this goal, imagination is not enough if one refuses to deal with the present reality, the constraints of Nature and our technological means. It is obvious that "machines heavier than air" were impossible at Kelvin's time. At the Kelvin's time, you would have said "it's possible". I'm sorry to say that at the Kelvin's time, your assertion would have been as useless as almost all the today free energy announcements not supported by facts.
Quote from: Dumped on 2012.01.22, 00:56:00
...
This is what professors do. Encourage scientific due process in order to ultimately discover the truth in any matter.
While some may think of this as a waste of time (in accordance with pre-judgment principles) is it really?
...
It is not a waste of time if it is really scientific. Unfortunately, we see very big flaws:
http://tinyurl.com/4yuxtac
The "truth" never comes from premature annoucements with unfunded assertions, very questionnable measurement methods, and hypothetic facts not verified by third party.
Quote from: Peterae on 2012.01.22, 08:48:05
Farrah will you stop the insults, the above statement tags everyone and there is just no need for it.
What are you doing here on OUR really? Any useful research?
You consider that an insult? That is simply how it appears. And it doesn't tag everyone - the Muppets know who they are.
How about this; when Chet and the people playing about with this device actually start to talk some sense, I'll start to be nice.
Well it would appear that is has been found to be insulting to some as my response was a direct result from the mail i am getting about your post, and as you have just stated that you are not going to stop then that leaves me very little choice in how i can i deal with this.
Making Sense............
Water is very interesting ...It holds a charge which changes with temperature all by itself ...Its bonds are make and break at will ... Pressure greatly changes things too!
I propose a theory based on things others have shared with me .
A perfect storm!!
"Pressure" caused by resonance ,"Temperature" caused by movement and a flow of " E.L.F. Electricity"!!
We beat up the water 10 ways to Sunday ... With a bit of extra Heat gained in the process .
No "Hokus pokus"!
This is an experiment Farrah !!
Chet Draws another line in the sand.............
PS I see the post above from admin.
Let it be known ... I don't Like Bans or complain [PM] behind the scenes.............
Is Farrah Getting a "Time Out"??
PPS
I am going to start to build again [along with others] .
It is my hope we will get some help and guidance from the fellows who have done this! [Also some movies!;}
PPPS
I also have an offer from Prof Savic on Custom made "Tuned" Sonic boiler!!
Lets Dance.....................
Quote from: Farrah Day on 2012.01.22, 13:37:47
You consider that an insult? That is simply how it appears. And it doesn't tag everyone - the Muppets know who they are.
How about this; when Chet and the people playing about with this device actually start to talk some sense, I'll start to be nice.
Hi Farrah.
Please tone it down a wee bit. Also, it is difficult at times to know to whom the poster is referring, so please be cognizant of that in the future. For a while there, it seemed the whole forum was being spanked :-[
And a reminder to those
making or supporting bold claims; ensure your case is
rock solid before you do, or accept the fact that you may be entering into uncomfortable territory.
Cheers :)
.99
The only person who can make a free energy machine before it's even possible is Chuck Norris, but he has more important things to do than saving the world. ;D
I hereby Formally rescind all Bold Claims made by others concerning a certain "Sonic Boiler".
Heretofore all such claims shall be considered Hearsay and not hold any validity in this venue!
I will however be following their suggestions [the claimants]regarding said claims ,and evaluating the feasibility of said claims as it may or may not apply to certain claimed "extra Heating" anomalies !
Any Hot air being generated by these Forum squirmishes [not a real word] will also be taken into consideration in the final Calorimetry..........
With all respect,
Chet
PS
I would also consider any OU events attributed to "Chuck Norris"as Hearsay until proven otherwise by serious scientific Rigor........[whatever that means]
Quote from: poynt99 on 2012.01.22, 16:06:17
Hi Farrah.
Please tone it down a wee bit. Also, it is difficult at times to know to whom the poster is referring, so please be cognizant of that in the future. For a while there, it seemed the whole forum was being spanked :-[
And a reminder to those making or supporting bold claims; ensure your case is rock solid before you do, or accept the fact that you may be entering into uncomfortable territory.
Cheers :)
.99
Yea, there should be rules for no spanking, unless the spankee is found utterly guilty of some real offense. ;) And the spanker should have to prove, in full, that the spankee needs spanked, before the spanking begins. O0
And, it is a shame that there has to be an uncomfortable territory. But if we were only to post rock solid info, then these forums would be gone long ago. No? ;)
Mags
Mags
"Spankyou very much"
Chet
Quote from: Magluvin on 2012.01.22, 18:39:04
And, it is a shame that there has to be an uncomfortable territory. But if we were only to post rock solid info, then these forums would be gone long ago. No? ;)
Mags
You're only venturing into uncomfortable territory (possibly) if you don't have credible evidence at hand, and you are either making bold claims or supporting them just because you believe. Does that not make sense?
Outside of making bold claims, almost anything is game. Fair enough?
Examples of a bold claim:
1) I am getting 100W going back to my battery, even when I'm heating water to boil. I have COP = infinity!
2) I have a circuit that I've confirmed produces 100W more output power than input power.
3) I can light 600 LEDs forever with one 1.5V battery, and it surely is a new discovery.
Examples of interesting results that one might share:
1) I am measuring more output power than input power, and I'd like some feedback on my methods and circuit so that I may confirm my results.
2) I can resonate 50 tuning forks with just one tuning fork, am I getting OU?
3) Here is an idea for how the TPU might work. What do you think?
Get the picture? O0
.99
How about
I design and build heat pumps for a living , I have always had to maintain the highest levels of Scrutiny for my systems to be competitive in the market place.
My test equipment as well as techniques have got to be ultra sensitive to observe even the most miniscule gains in performance.
I am Mr. ikea Hear me roar...................
""Disclaimer""
The above is a ruff translation of the hearsay that lead me to make such "bold Claims"
Chet
Quote from: ramset on 2012.01.22, 19:30:02
How about
I design and build heat pumps for a living , I have always had to maintain the highest levels of Scrutiny for my systems to be competitive in the market place.
My test equipment as well as techniques have got to be ultra sensitive to observe even the most miniscule gains in performance.
I am Mr. ikea Hear me roar...................
""Disclaimer""
The above is a ruff translation of the hearsay that lead me to make such "bold Claims"
Chet
;)
As long as you have no credible evidence at hand Chet (which to date I don't believe we've seen), then it shall remain and be presented as hearsay.
.99
99
Yes I understand....
A fellah once told me if a smack my hand with a hammer it would hurt!! Based on all I know about those things {hammers and hands] I took his word for it!
I have spent my life dealing with all kinds of fellows in some pretty shady businesses in NYC ...It became necessary for me to become a very good Interpreter of people ,There were times my life depended on this!
Speaking as I have, at great lengths to the inventor of this ikea Boiler . Its like a hammer Smack to me now....This is what he does ,its not his hobby ,he cannot explain what he sees ,nor does he try ...But I tell you one thing .... He completely understands how to reproduce it ,and does so at will!
With the help and guidance of the men and woman here and elsewhere we will proceed to build and test ...........
THX
Chet
Cheers! O0
My post wasnt against you in any way. O0
I was just hoping that some may get the message that being nice to others is not so hard to do.
But for some, it seems that it is. Why is that?
What is the root cause? Just plain hatred of the hopes, happiness and excitement in Chet?
Something Ive noticed lately is there is a lot less bashing at OU than there used to be. Except in 1 thread. O0 :-X
And lets say that maybe the person in that thread really has nothing, and is just plain crazy, borderline retarded. What is the great value it putting them down any further that one might think they already are? Does it make ya feel good? Is it of utmost importance that you inform the "3 readers of the thread" that they may not falter into the sink hole? Save them! Their souls are at risk! AHHHH!
I picture some here that would make fun of someone in the street that walked funny from a disability, OPENLY AND OUT LOUD so that THEIR audience may notice their great victory over the crippled beast fool. How dare they show themselves in public, we must make it known that the freak walks funny and we must belittle them for all to see. A moral imperative. O0
Gimme a break
Mags
Mags:
There is another perspective on the issue of claims based on hearsay or other things that are suspect or just blatantly ridiculous. I think about two months ago a graph from "Mr. C," the alleged Serbian professor, that showed the performance of his device.
It was a graph with temperature on the vertical scale and current on the horizontal scale, and an associated curve.
Now, that graph makes no sense at all. Considering that this is data coming from someone that is allegedly working with a sonic boiler and pitching the concept it's twice as bad.
Now, you are reasonably astute. Could you yourself see how ridiculous and nonsensical that graph was? If you did, did you connect the dots back to the person that supplied the graph and conclude that this person was in all likelihood not credible?
Now it goes without saying that nothing would be said on OU. But here it is different.
If you did think the graph was nonsense then why didn't you speak up? It's more of a hypothetical question that is generic and applies across the board.
How come people that are reasonably astute see what they know is ridiculous nonsense on free energy forums and say nothing?
MileHigh
QuoteIt was a graph with temperature on the vertical scale and current on the horizontal scale, and an associated curve.
Now, that graph makes no sense at all.
I didn't see the graph what was wrong with it ?
Was he using a constant voltage source maybe mains supply so therefore power would be proportional to the current, so without looking into it i would imagine he was plotting the power required to raise temperature.
MH
I remember being perplexed by the graph [and saying so],I have since learned that the Cop event does not start to manifest until the temp gets to 90 C !
This is by no means a case of "don't confuse me with the facts my mind is made up"!!
THX
Chet
Here is the nonsensical graph. I remembered the axes incorrectly, but it doesn't matter:
(http://i42.tinypic.com/2rmsj5t.png)
TSk TSK TSK
Oh But How wrong you are !!
It Posolutely [new word] shows that the COP event starts to happen at [about]90 C
I do remember remarking that I felt critical info was missing ,however the intent of the graph is clear now
Things start to happen at 90 C
I will give you the fact that its a tad confusing but MR.ikea Has found that his device sees the same thing ,and this transformer is for the "Mr. ikea" device
THX
Chet
Quote from: Magluvin on 2012.01.22, 21:08:43
Something Ive noticed lately is there is a lot less bashing at OU than there used to be. Except in 1 thread. O0 :-X
That's because most of the folks who perpetrated the nonsense causing and participating in the "bashing" have not posted for a long time.
Quote
And lets say that maybe the person in that thread really has nothing, and is just plain crazy, borderline retarded. What is the great value it putting them down any further that one might think they already are? Does it make ya feel good? Is it of utmost importance that you inform the "3 readers of the thread" that they may not falter into the sink hole? Save them! Their souls are at risk! AHHHH!
In case you hadn't noticed, Rosemary is making
demands that we pay her the OU Award/Prize. Not only that, but she continues to spread lies about me and the analysis that I have performed. Am I to stand by and allow that to happen, and also not make it clear what the conditions are to apply for the Award? I'd rather be playing my guitar to be honest, but the BS she propagates is unacceptable, at least to me. What would you do if I was posting demands to you and sending you emails asking for money of which I do not deserve?
Quote
I picture some here that would make fun of someone in the street that walked funny from a disability, OPENLY AND OUT LOUD so that THEIR audience may notice their great victory over the crippled beast fool. How dare they show themselves in public, we must make it known that the freak walks funny and we must belittle them for all to see. A moral imperative. O0
Gimme a break
Mags
That's a sad picture you envision, and it is not me at all. I don't think anyone here is like that.
.99
Edit: Removed "have"
Fair enough
Mags
well
Glad thats out of the way!!
I'm gleaning other facts from the thread at present.
Also acquiring the necessary pieces for this replication.
It is my intent to stick very close to this outline from AllCanadian
Quote:
Now if a person wanted to get creative we could also use an Arduino usb microcontroller to simultaneously sweep one frequency range or multiple frequencies while monitoring a hall effect sensor which senses vibrations of the cans which are partially saturated by a permanent magnetic field. In which case we would simply program the microcontroller to automatically sweep through a massive number of frequency combinations and log the frequency(s) and the output from the hall effect sensor and possibly a temperature sensor in the serial monitor for number crunching in a spread sheet.
Quote from: exnihiloest
...
The "truth" never comes from premature annou[n]cements with unfunded assertions, very question[n]able measurement methods, and hypothetic[al] facts not verified by third party.
Absolutely correct.
Which is why teamwork is necessary.
All claims must be verified (or disproved)
by as many capable "volunteers" as possible.
Even the "establishment" claims must be
validated.
Chet:
From my perspective the 90 degrees Celsius business is just more hearsay. That graph remains just as nonsensical as it was before. It seems there is always some "new information" as things start to get stale. It also complicates the measurements quite a bit when you think about it.
With respect to the heap pump guy, I can't prejudge but I will tell you my thoughts: There is no reason to believe that a guy that knows heat pumps is going to be an expert on resistive heating. Likewise, I can't envision a commercial heat pump guy worrying about precise measuring methods with (presumably) smaller amounts of hot water.
I think that you slipped on your third or fourth promise for a movie. I assume that you are acting in good faith, and the real person doing the slipping is the heat pump guy.
I think June 30th is a reasonable proof or failure date, so no rush on the supposed movies.
Please don't spend a lot of your money on this.
MileHigh
MH
Money is no problem....
I have none!!
Time is something I hope to have at night for the foreseeable future .
I'm going to set up in one of the old furnace rooms at the facility, I'll be here away from home weeks at a time .
I'm actually looking forward to this ... I didn't realize how tuff it would be here,young people passing from this world wrapped in fear, the ones left behind trying to straighten out their lives!!
Mothers and fathers finding themselves powerless to help their kids....I just get a little numb sometimes ,confused??[I pray a lot]
I need something like this to help distract me, plus some of the kids here are into it,and that makes me happy!
MH I know how you feel about this .....
Thanks
Chet
@Chet,
Enjoy yourself in whatever you do. Just be safe in all manner.
Quote from: poynt99 on 2012.01.22, 22:47:10
...
Rosemary is making demands that we pay her the OU Award/Prize. Not only that, but she continues to spread lies about me and the analysis that I have performed. Am I to stand by and allow that to happen, and also not make it clear what the conditions are to apply for the Award? I'd rather be playing my guitar to be honest, but the BS she propagates is unacceptable, at least to me. What would you do if I was posting demands to you and sending you emails asking for money of which I do not deserve?
...
I also faced this kind of sick persons. They are outside of reason and not of good will. The only way that I found is to ignore their private messages, and on the forums to absolutely avoid long and healthy replies which are then used by them as new sources for falsifications and sophisms. I treat them by contempt, by replying only from time to time and with very short comments ("this is false", "lie", "calumny", "your are wrong, I have already explained why", "prove it"...). From my little experience, I retained it is important for the health not to worry, not to go into their game, and to stay above; to play guitar is surely a good way. Life is short, it would be a pity to waste precious hours with her. ;)
MH
You seem to be able to cut me some slack on things [scheduling] ?
I'm having a good morning as far as this project is concerned ,I believe this will be a very good week .
I have given one of the inventors this address....
THX
Chet
Quote from: Magluvin on 2012.01.22, 18:39:04
Yea, there should be rules for no spanking, unless the spankee is found utterly guilty of some real offense. ;) And the spanker should have to prove, in full, that the spankee needs spanked, before the spanking begins. O0
And, it is a shame that there has to be an uncomfortable territory. But if we were only to post rock solid info, then these forums would be gone long ago. No? ;)
Mags
Ok boys, I apologise for my, let's say, 'bluntness'. I put it down simply to frustration... and the time of the month! I'll try to rein in my knee-jerk reactions to folk who post meaningless clap-trap. Afterall, you'd miss me if I was gone! ;)
It really is time that there was a little science and some real evidence to substantiate claims now. Just having Chet saying that he KNOWS it works will never quite work for me. And we still dont have the promised video... do we? C.C
A photo of the device that Savic has sent the Prof would be nice. It would also be nice if the Prof could also confirm the design, dimensions, etc for us, because what we have always been lacking is the precise details of a known working device.
@Milehigh
QuoteFrom my perspective the 90 degrees Celsius business is just more hearsay. That graph remains just as nonsensical as it was before. It seems there is always some "new information" as things start to get stale. It also complicates the measurements quite a bit when you think about it.
Actually the graph makes perfect sense if you think about it, I guess that is the problem, as the water approaches 100 Deg C which is it's boiling point any pressure variations can cause the water to instantly change state from liquid to gas ie ... bubbles. When a change in state occurs 2257 KJ/Kg is required for this change, now if the plates undergo mechanical oscillations we have a mechanism for a reduction in pressure at the surface of the plates which will cause the water to vaporize intermittently. As you may know a reduced pressure will cause water to boil at a lower temperature. When this occurs the gas bubbles will form an insulating barrier surrounding the plates so of course the current must fall as the resistance to the current has increased, thermodynamics 101.
QuoteThere is no reason to believe that a guy that knows heat pumps is going to be an expert on resistive heating. Likewise, I can't envision a commercial heat pump guy worrying about precise measuring methods with (presumably) smaller amounts of hot water.
But we don't know do we?, judging persons solely on their current occupation is pure speculation at best and for all we know he may have been a former employee of Nasa. For instance, Im just an engineer yet all the controls people come to me because they can't read the computer code in our systems, I am fluent in many programming languages and have been for 20 years. I also have the LAN tech's in my freaking office because they don't understand electronics yet none of this is supposedly related to my position.
I am not saying this technology works in any way I'm just your justification for it not working is weak at best.
Regards
AC
Farrah
I missed you and you weren't even gone!!
@AC
Sir
You contributions are wonderful, You have amazing insight and intuition !
I anticipate having a lot to talk about on this topic in the near future!!
Chet
AC:
QuoteActually the graph makes perfect sense if you think about it
Please be specific, because I don't see anything at all in that graph that makes sense to me. Please explain it to me.
If I recall correctly it takes about 40 calories of added heat to melt a gram of ice, and about 200 calories of added heat to boil a gram of water. I am not bothering to look it up, just relying on some ancient memory neurons. Even if pressure variations allow the water to turn into steam at a slightly lower temperature, you still need a massive amount of extra energy to create the steam. But then again, I don't think that this project is about boiling water and creating steam. I could be wrong, but I don't get that impression at all. It's just about an over unity water heater, and it is not specifically about steam production. Looking at the diagrams of the containment vessels makes it look like it's just about heating water where the effect is allegedly over unity. Steam production is a whole new ball game and nobody has seriously talked about that.
So where does this leave your discussion and why are you talking about steam?
QuoteBut we don't know do we?
Indeed, it's impossible to prejudge anyone by their profession. I am just speculating on a hunch, that's all. If you have made a career in selling and installing heat pumps for domestic and industrial uses, you know how to move massive amounts of heat from point A to point B and back using a network of pipes put into some sort a thermal mass (I assume usually the ground or bedrock) and how to install the electric or gas engine that does the mechanical work to compress the refrigerant gas to move the heat and all of that good stuff. It doesn't necessarily mean that if you know industrial heat pumps that you will be familiar with more of a laboratory environment.
Anyway, time will tell.
But I'll say it again, this business of "it starts working at 90 degrees Celsius and above," it simply doesn't smell right to me.
MileHigh
So I suppose a career in manufacturing heat pumps ,designing and testing new prototypes for performance levels would hold more weight?
Did you think we were talking about a plumber?
THx
Chet
Chet:
That holds more weight for sure. So is this the person that has been promising you a movie and has not delivered? I seem to recall that you stated that this person has been working on this heater project for a while. Like at least a month ago he had already confirmed good results.
I could be mixing up characters.
MileHigh
Chet:
About this:
QuoteMessage from Mr. "C"
Translation by Prop S
Dear friends and sonic boiler replicators.
You cannot publicly sell sonic boilers and make money out of it.
You will get arrested by police under charges of device not being patented and safe for use.
Sonic boiler didnt pass any safety checks and it is a type of device not recognized throughout the world, since it draws its energy from quantum field of vacuum ETRA which according to Einstein theory, officially does not exist.
According to "them", its a criminal act.
Any one of you can make sonic boiler for them selves or as a gift to relatives if they mastered the production process which is not easy.
I gave this to the world so anyone can make it for them selves and for that I bare no consequences.
At the time I patent the quantum heater COP =32 (should Einstein`s mafia allow me to) I will be able to sell it and everyone who wants to make it and knows how to, can make one for them selves.
For USA patent organization, sonic boiler and entire Tesla`s resonance technology are Perpetuum mobile and forbiden for production and sales and never to be recognized or put in production as long as there is oil, gas and nuclear power plants and MONEY.
Nuclear lobby struggles so people spend a lot of electricity and to pay high price for it, not cheap.
Energy is free and there is plenty of it in vacuum you just need to catch it with resonance. That my teacher Nikola Tesla
----
Translation is word by word so I know there are some sentences that you cannot understand but that is not my fault, savic expressions are to blame since some of his thoughts are incomplete but I translated them in such manner without adding anything on my own.
I am not copying and pasting this here to gratuitously bash this guy. I suppose in part it's just for posterity purposes.
This has a "Romerouk" feel about it. It just doesn't smell right.
Look at your reply:
QuoteSlovenia
The intent is quite clear ,The professor speaks the truth!
Thank you professor Savic ,I hope your gift to us helps to make this world a much better place!
I absolutely, positively believe it will ,Very shortly !!
Thank you
Chet
It's like you are playing into this guy, giving him what he wants. It's borderline unhealthy.
I suggest that you politely ask for results from your heat pump guy. Why not ask for some pictures of setups and data from the Serbian guy? It would be interesting to see how he reacts.
Please just try to keep a bit of a cool head here and take some of the emotionality out of it and start being more analytical. Pictures, test results, test data, whatever you can get, including from the Serbian guy.
I would not be surprised if the Serbian guy chokes if you ask him for pictures and data. If that happens his credibility will start to erode in your mind, which would be a good thing in the long run.
MileHigh
Quote from: Farrah Day on 2012.01.23, 12:45:26
Afterall, you'd miss me if I was gone! ;)
Not really... I am married. :D
MH
His device is at the doctor right know being tested [3rd party].
Professor Savic is directly involved with these tests .
What he said about "Patents" in this venue [perpetual motion] absolutely true!!
Me believing that the rendering that has evolved from Savics boiler will change the World ?
I completely believe this to be true ...And so does the Inventor of said rendering. [Mr. ikea]
THX
Chet
PS
MH
I know you don't believe this works ... That I'm emotionally caught up in this... to the point of turning a blind eye to "red Flags".
And I know you are sincere in this belief!
I completely respect that... It makes total sense ,you have the high ground of history Past........
This will be history Future!!
This time is different [you'll see]
MH Prepares a sandwich for Chet ..A word sandwich..
\-----------
You ain't gonna make me eat those words this time missta........ O0
QuoteThis will be history Future!!
This time is different [you'll see]
Chet, history shows that this is far from the first device (or person) that you have believed in 100% - I just wonder how many more times you will be saying, 'this time will be different (you'll see)'... ?
So anyway, if the Prof now has one of these devices, can't he at least take some pictures and provide some specifics for us to mull over whilst he conducts his tests... ? I see no problems in this as you, Chet, are continually banging on about it being 'open source', for the good of the planet, blah, blah, blah, and Savic himself talks about giving it to the world. So come Prof. let the dog see the bone, eh!
@Milehigh
QuotePlease be specific, because I don't see anything at all in that graph that makes sense to me. Please explain it to me.
I think the graph is pretty straightforward, the temperature rises in proportion to the current flow which suggest resistive heating. Then when the temperature nears 100 Deg C which is the boiling point of water the current falls off sharply. Why does the current fall near 100 Deg C? There must be a reason and the most logical reason is that steam bubbles have formed at or near the surface of the plates which has raised the resistance to the current flow. This is because bubbles of steam or another gas are not water, they are not the same thus the resistance cannot be the same which is most likely why the current falls.
Then we have the question of the temperature at which the current starts falling, the specific heat of water is roughly 4 KJ/Kg/Deg C and this is the energy required to raise the temperature of water, then once water is at 100 Deg C it takes another 2257 KJ/Kg to turn the water into steam and this is called Latent heat or "hidden" because heat is added but does not change the temperature. This works both ways, 2257 KJ/Kg is needed to turn water into steam and when steam condenses back into water it releases 2257 KJ/Kg.There is also an issue of pressure because if the pressure at any point or region is lower than ambient then the water will turn into steam at a lower temperature.
What the graph tells me is that near 100 Deg C the resistance to the flow of current rises causing the current flow to drop, the most likely cause is steam bubbles due to the fact that the bells or plates are in motion which may cause pressure variations. We cannot consider water near 100 Deg C without considering the formation of steam bubbles that is absurd, water boils at 100 Deg C.
It may help to understand my perspective on this, I don't really care whether any device works or not, I do not really care whether the inventor knows what they are talking about or not or there credibility. I look at any technology to learn, to find answers to any questions I may have concerning the technology and hopefully make improvements. As such I don't really care what anyone make think is occuring in any given device as I will determine that for myself because we have to, we cannot really understand or improve anything without taking all the logical steps for ourselves. Basically I ask two questions, what may be happening and why? then I run through every possible scenario regardless of how improbable it may be, this is not statistics it is science.
Regards
AC
AC:
A graph of current vs temperature doesn't make any sense. There is no correlation between the two. Any level of current will be able to produce any temperature and any level of current should eventually be able to boil water.
Don't forget, this is a "professor" we are supposed to be talking about.
Note also that the graph apparently shows the water going "above 100 degrees."
It's nonsensical idiocy and these kinds of things would be dismissed out of had if I had my own free energy evaluation fascist dictatorship. lol What I really mean is that I wish that the collective bar was raised so that the people promoting this stuff would think twice. Ironically enough, it's the opposite fascist dictatorship that reigns on the other forums.
QuoteIt may help to understand my perspective on this, I don't really care whether any device works or not, I do not really care whether the inventor knows what they are talking about or not or there credibility. I look at any technology to learn, to find answers to any questions I may have concerning the technology and hopefully make improvements. As such I don't really care what anyone make think is occuring in any given device as I will determine that for myself because we have to, we cannot really understand or improve anything without taking all the logical steps for ourselves.
You should care, don't you think? You are arguing for the "a million monkeys on typewriters" method for evaluating free energy claims. It's crazy and "all of the tea in China" is not enough to evaluate all of the claims if you think like this.
QuoteBasically I ask two questions, what may be happening and why? then I run through every possible scenario regardless of how improbable it may be, this is not statistics it is science.
It's not science, it's the million monkeys deal. Science has to advance faster than the brute force monkey approach. You just have to have a junk filter.
Anyway, this is just a rhetorical argument that has been covered before. I am sure another "wild and crazy" proposition will come along sometime in the future and you will endorse it while stating that you don't necessarily believe it to be true and I will say why it can't possibly work. Just agree to disagree.
All that I can ask is that both sides chime in on June 30th for the sake of closure. If it works, I will say that I was wrong and we can ring in the dawn of the Age of Aquarius. If it doesn't work, how about you stepping forward and saying something?
A closed-loop 2000 megawatt steam turbine electrical power plant running on an unlimited supply of Professor Savic's invisible Serbian Pixie Dust. It is a wonderful gift.
MileHigh
Farrah this is the link for the Davey /Savic boiler that is in for testing.[the pic]
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/8999-peter-daysh-davey-water-heater-query-53.html
Its not the sonic boiler, this one predates that ,its one of Savics early "Davey" renderings .
A Cop of 2.56 is claimed [Approx].
Not a very big bone ...........enjoy.
Chet
PS
HHMMM I see MH has made some comments above about going over 100c with water being nonsense? and others about steam]
TSK TSK ...........
I'm not allowed to talk about that yet {Rob {evolvingape made me promise]
I have to tell you MH when it comes to the things ""you"" know about water ,You sound like me with electronics....[OUCH]
You should study more.................
Are you talking about the one the kid is holding? That is the one in for testing? But that doesn't relate to the depiction in the following post, right? So are there any depictions of the internal configuration of this particular unit, or is it simply what-you-see-is-what-you-get?
Got to say, that picture makes me cringe... how dangerous is this!
Let's just hope that no one has forgot to disconnect it from the mains next time the kid decides to pick it up!
When you say it is not the sonic boiler, what do you mean? Does this one work differently? If so how could you elaborate?
Farrah
HHHMMMM
What are you doing up so late??
Any hoo ,No its not the sonic beer can boiler [I still laugh when I write that] with the Cop of 12
I am not sure if the Davey PDF that follows the Pic on the forum is a rendering of the Inside?
But ,That being said It will show just how accurate the professors Cop Numbers are?
THX
Chet
@Milehigh
QuoteA graph of current vs temperature doesn't make any sense. There is no correlation between the two. Any level of current will be able to produce any temperature and any level of current should eventually be able to boil water.
Hmm, your right, I made certain assumptions such as there must be a constant heat loss or load on the system so that the increased amperage correlated to an increasing temperature but the graph is pretty vague, yet another game of fill in the blanks.
QuoteYou should care, don't you think? You are arguing for the "a million monkeys on typewriters" method for evaluating free energy claims. It's crazy and "all of the tea in China" is not enough to evaluate all of the claims if you think like this.
I wouldn't say that and to be honest I still don't care and I still won't pick sides because there are no sides, just people trying to make a difference in whatever way they can and some will be right and some will be wrong. You see it's hard to pick a side one would call sane when the supposedly sane ones want to build nuclear reactors running at 5% total efficiency with no real solutions for long term storage, security, containment nor cleanup after the fact. As well the really sane one's apparently believe time can speed up and slow down, that there are strange multiple universes we can never prove and that things can just appear out of "virtually" nowhere, it begs the question who are the real monkeys here?.
QuoteAnyway, this is just a rhetorical argument that has been covered before. I am sure another "wild and crazy" proposition will come along sometime in the future and you will endorse it while stating that you don't necessarily believe it to be true and I will say why it can't possibly work. Just agree to disagree.
I would agree most everything is getting a little wild and crazy on both sides of the proverbial fence these days and I used to think that surely some people at the top levels knew what they were doing in regards to the future, but Im not so sure any more considering the facts. I guess time will tell, in the mean time we can agree to disagree which ain't so bad.
Regards
AC
@ramset
QuoteIt is my intent to stick very close to this outline from AllCanadian
Quote:
Now if a person wanted to get creative we could also use an Arduino usb microcontroller to simultaneously sweep one frequency range or multiple frequencies while monitoring a hall effect sensor which senses vibrations of the cans which are partially saturated by a permanent magnetic field. In which case we would simply program the microcontroller to automatically sweep through a massive number of frequency combinations and log the frequency(s) and the output from the hall effect sensor and possibly a temperature sensor in the serial monitor for number crunching in a spread sheet.
I think this would be a good plan, I usually practice what I call intelligent design which in this context means we have to do things smarter. I learned this lesson years ago when doing experiments and rather than spend months chasing some remote resonance point or point of equilimbium etc.... in a system we simply let it come to us through intelligent design. That is we use a computer to do all the repetative work for us and when it finds what we are looking for it notifies us. Lol, I remember programming my mighty Vic 20 with it's infernal tape drive eons ago to do this very thing, I would type up five or six thousand lines of code for a simulation and that damn tape drive would chew it up and spit it out, stupid computers :D.
This is kind of a cross between simulations which I seldom if ever trust and manually doing experiments, I have found that many times there are certain points in time when all the right conditions come into play in a system and unexpected things can happen. I cannot say whether this device works or not however if your going to test it faster and cheaper is better.
Regards
AC
Vic 20 ;] I had the RS CoCo.
Taught myself assmbly. I think it was the ASM+ cartidge. Soldered double stacked my bank of 16k ram to 32k :o, with pin 7 on the upper stack connected to a control IC for bank select :o lol The seniors in my VoTeck electronics class said it wouldnt work. BAAHAHAHAHAHA evil genius back then. Along with help from Hot CoCo magazine. O0
Did all kinds a stuff with that thang. :D
My brother had a Vic and, oh what was it, a tiny thing with the flat membrane keyboard. ZX81? lol it was slow compared to my .8mhz 6809e processor. I dont know how I remember that stuff
Those were the days memories ;)
Mags
QuoteThere must be a reason and the most logical reason is that steam bubbles have formed at or near the surface of the plates which has raised the resistance to the current flow. This is because bubbles of steam or another gas are not water, they are not the same thus the resistance cannot be the same which is most likely why the current falls.
I can see that pockets of water vapour may disrupt ion current flow throughout the liquid and hence effectively increase the resistance, but I don't particularly see any excessive build up of bubbles on or near the electrodes themselves. Compared to the water, the electrodes are very good conductors and will only be getting hot as a result of the water itself heating. Afterall, it is the water that offers the resistance. This is not like electrolysis where gases are formed at the electrodes.
Likewise if cavitation is occurring, then rarefaction and compression can take place anywhere in the liquid between the oscillating electrodes.
If scaled up and standing waves were set up then we would have distinct areas of compression and rarefaction, but these devices are far too small to set up standing waves.
Regarding the graph, I tend to agree with MH, in that it makes very little sense. It is simply too crude to make any sense of, and hardly something you would expect from a scientist - which is not in itself very encouraging.
I may be wrong, but I would not expect to see a linear graph. Sure the water resistance will decrease as the temperature rises due to more energy being absorbed by the water molecules and hence increased self-ionisation, but the initial current flow will mainly be determined by ionic impurities. If we take the graph as shown - a straight line – there is a lower point whereby no current will be flowing at all, and if no current flows to start with, the device won't work. Are we to assume that the graph starts with ice? And why would the current be shown to continually drop as is indicated once boiling? Obviously the water can only reach 100 deg.C (though Chet, would appear to think otherwise) and so I would have expected the current to simply drop for a while and then stabilise. We all know that when up to temperature we can reduce the power and set to simmer, but there is no indication from the graph of the current levelling off. I also think that the current range indicated is too great. I would expect quite a high initial current flow that rises to a peak and then drops after boiling to a point whereby we get equilibrium. All this being said, we may be looking too hard at such a slap-dash graph.
@FarrahDay
QuoteI can see that pockets of water vapour may disrupt ion current flow throughout the liquid and hence effectively increase the resistance, but I don't particularly see any excessive build up of bubbles on or near the electrodes themselves. Compared to the water, the electrodes are very good conductors and will only be getting hot as a result of the water itself heating. Afterall, it is the water that offers the resistance. This is not like electrolysis where gases are formed at the electrodes.
I think we need to separate cause and effect here, the bubbles would be due to a change in pressure due to the mechanical motion of the electrodes which is not directly related to either the current or the temperature. As well in electrolysis the gasses forming at the plates are due to conduction not a variation in pressure. Now we can ask the questions what is the primary cause of the bubbles? -- a variation in pressure, what is the primary cause of the variation in pressure? -- the change in velocity (an acceleration) of the electrodes themselves, what is the primary cause of this change in velocity of the electrodes? -- Is it electrical forces, magnetic forces or Electromagnetic forces?. If so we have a degree of separation in which the mechanical forces and a change in state have isolated the electromagnet forces at play in time and space (a distance).
QuoteLikewise if cavitation is occurring, then rarefaction and compression can take place anywhere in the liquid between the oscillating electrodes.
What is cavitation?, it is a change in the condition or physical state due to a pressure variation.
QuoteIf scaled up and standing waves were set up then we would have distinct areas of compression and rarefaction, but these devices are far too small to set up standing waves.
That would depend on the distance between the electrodes relative to the wavelength of the waves however we cannot discount indirect effects. What is the frequency of the collapsing bubbles? You see when a steam bubble forms then collapses in on itself rapidly the pressure acts inward to a singular point then reflects outward due to the pressure at that point, this could produce waves not directly related to the pressure variation which created the bubbles in the first place. Just as the collapsing magnetic field can produce an inductive discharge in a coil which produces harmonics completely unrelated to the field which charged the coil in the first place. Are you sure this is just simple cause and effect? if we consider that effects similar to Sonoluminescence may be happening then it would definitely put a new spin on things.
I do not think we can get to the bottom of this by generalizing and simplifying everything if in fact something out of the ordinary may be happening.
Here is an analogy, A long time ago I was tuning Helmholtz resonators in my research of pulse jet and pulse detonation combustion. Now if too much material was taken away the frequency changed and if any material was added the frequency changed. I tuned the resonator perfectly then added a support and it was off, I re-tuned it then added my fuel/air connectors and again the frequency was off. I found the only actual way to produce a pure fundamental frequency which integrates both the gas pulse frequency and the harmonics of the pipe itself was if the pipe was floating freely in mid-air. Even then a change in temperature would change the relationship -- tuning anything is not easy, tuning things with variables which continually effect the variables is damn near impossible.
As such if you think this device is just a couple of electrodes making bubbles I believe you are mistaken.
Regards
AC
AC
You are one of the Few people I have read that puts This into perspective,It is not one field of science at play here....
It is almost "ALL" that could be in play.
To make broad sweeps with the Doubt brush from just one perspective or frame of reference is at best Poor judgement!
You sir are a breath of fresh air .I can't wait till we can all dig in on this !!
THX
Chet
While I agree that there may well be more than one thing going on with the device, I don't really agree with anything else you've said in your last post AC. I think maybe you are getting things confused here.
A pocket of water vapour within the liquid created by heat, is not the same as a pocket of water vapour created due to rarefaction. The pocket of water vapour created by heat will not rapidly collapse in on itself like the pocket of water vapour created as in cavitation.
These great big bubbles and bubbling effect are due to the water boiling, not due solely - if at all - to cavitation. We know this from Savics crude graph. Cavitation bubbles in this device would likely be microscopic.
You talk about pressure variations creating the bubbles, and yes, sure in cavitation, but gas is also formed when too much energy (heat) is absorbed by the liquid and it changes state, and these bubbles won't collapse until the surrounding liquid cools, and if it is being continually heated the bubbles will simple rise to the surface. These are two completely different things.
It could well be that any movement of the electrodes is simply due to the energetic bubbling off of the water vapour, and hence an effect rather than a cause.
If the electrodes do vibrate with respect to each other due to interacting magnetic fields, then it has to be at mains frequency, ie. 50 - 60Hz, so that rules out standing waves. Also, if the current drops off as indicated by Savic's graph, then the amplitude of the vibrating electrodes will also decrease proportionally... so what does that tell us?
@FarrahDay
QuoteA pocket of water vapour within the liquid created by heat, is not the same as a pocket of water vapour created due to rarefaction. The pocket of water vapour created by heat will not rapidly collapse in on itself like the pocket of water vapour created as in cavitation.
Hmm, I was never speaking of "A pocket of water vapour" formed by heat, I was speaking of perfectly spherical bubbles formed due to pressure variations, I thought I was quite clear about this.
QuoteThese great big bubbles and bubbling effect are due to the water boiling, not due solely - if at all - to cavitation. We know this from Savics crude graph. Cavitation bubbles in this device would likely be microscopic.
I think you are making pointless generalizations again, First I am not and never was speaking of "great big bubbles" nor a " pocket of water vapour" and the term "Boiling" is relative as water can boil due to heat being absorbed (2257 KJ/Kg to be exact) OR boil due to a drop in pressure and in both cases the water is considered as boiling.
QuoteYou talk about pressure variations creating the bubbles, and yes, sure in cavitation, but gas is also formed when too much energy (heat) is absorbed by the liquid and it changes state, and these bubbles won't collapse until the surrounding liquid cools, and if it is being continually heated the bubbles will simple rise to the surface. These are two completely different things.
This statement tells me a great deal, In the graph the effect occurs near 100 Deg C, not at 100 Deg C, near 100 Deg C and water will not boil at less than 100 Deg C unless the pressure is lower than atmospheric and this only applies to the exact space where the pressure is lower. As well the change in state is dependent on two factors which are temperature and pressure and these two factors are dependent on one another, they are not different things as you have suggested.
Water can boil producing steam bubbles due to heat being absorbed then instantly condense if the pressure is raised just as water can instantly boil at a temperature lower than 100 Deg C if the pressure is lowered because the change in state is dependent on both temperature AND pressure. The graph below may clarify things, as they say a picture is worth a thousand words.
QuoteIt could well be that any movement of the electrodes is simply due to the energetic bubbling off of the water vapour, and hence an effect rather than a cause.
This could be the case however I do not think it would explain a rise in heat output, which is why we are here --- aren't we?.
QuoteIf the electrodes do vibrate with respect to each other due to interacting magnetic fields, then it has to be at mains frequency, ie. 50 - 60Hz, so that rules out standing waves. Also, if the current drops off as indicated by Savic's graph, then the amplitude of the vibrating electrodes will also decrease proportionally... so what does that tell us?
Well no it does not, if I strike a bell at 50Hz does this mean the bell must "ring" at 50Hz, well no that is just silly and the bell will ring at it's natural frequency between each strike.
As well if the current drops this could effect the vibrating electrodes however this is only if the current is solely responsible for the motion of the electrodes, is it? we do not know and that is the only point I would make.
It's funny that your posts always have the same old theme and you seem bound and determined to assume no device could ever produce excess energy from somewhere we have yet to understand. I don't mean to be overly critical of your doom and gloom outlook however just once I would like to hear a reason from you why or how something could work in reality. To my knowledge I have never seen a single post from you in which you have given reasons why or how something could work only generalized reasons why it cannot, do you find that a little odd?, I do.
Let's do a little thought experiment Farrah, if this device was hypothetically producing excess energy in the form of heat then where do you think the energy might come from and why?.
Regards
AC
That's it, I'm done with you AC. Conversing is pointless as clearly we have totally different outlooks when it comes to science, pseudoscience and sheer fantasy.
I really think that you too easily lose touch with reality in a vain attempt to support these people and their wild claims. You are like Chet's right-hand man - he sources these devices while you clumsily attempt to add credibility to these things. You obviously have a thing for the under-dog, no matter how crazy. I mean come on, only you would encourage these folk to build a 'Special Transformer'... why would you do that? The rest of us know that if they haven't got the skills to build this simple boiler, then in what universe are they going to be building a Special Transformer! And, who in their right mind - even if capable - would go to so much time and trouble to build something that can operate at something other than mains frequency, when the boiler's key attribute is the very fact that it operates at mains frequency??? It simply makes no sense... are you building a 'special transformer'?
The sad reality of it all, is that there is not one single piece of actual evidence to suggest any of these claims even hold water. Do you trust Savic's graph? Do you trust Savic? What about Savic's Neutrino explanation... are you going to try to slot that into the equation somewhere? C.C
I wouldn't trust Savic as far as I can throw him. Nothing about his posts even suggest he is particularly highly educated, let alone a professor... and a professor of what exactly?
@FarrahDay
QuoteI really think that you too easily lose touch with reality in a vain attempt to support these people and their wild claims. You are like Chet's right-hand man - he sources these devices while you clumsily attempt to add credibility to these things.
Speaking of wild claims, lol, first I'm not supporting anyone and my purpose here is to explore all the options of how any device could theoretically be made to work while you seem to be in some manic form of denial that everything cannot ever work in any way and nobody should even try.
QuoteYou obviously have a thing for the under-dog, no matter how crazy. I mean come on, only you would encourage these folk to build a 'Special Transformer'... why would you do that?
No I have a thing for people saying something cannot work without justification, you see it just does not sit well with my idea of science. As well why would I not encourage others to build a variable frequency power supply (your special transformer)?, I have built more than I would care to admit and it has always been a valuable learning experience and no matter how many I build they can always be made better in some way.
QuoteThe sad reality of it all, is that there is not one single piece of actual evidence to suggest any of these claims even hold water. Do you trust Savic's graph? Do you trust Savic? What about Savic's Neutrino explanation... are you going to try to slot that into the equation somewhere?
The sad reality is that some people like to judge a book by it's cover and belittle others to make themselves feel superior, that's just not my thing Farrah and I choose to judge any technology on it's merits and hypothetical potential. I do not know if it works in any way, I do not know how it could work but that should not stop me from exploring ways in which it could -- is that such a crime Farrah? Is this what all the fuss is about? I believe this is what science is all about, we form a hypothesis in which we believe it could possibly work and then test it.
To be honest I find it absolutely mind-boggling why you are so intent on killing this topic, why you are so determined to squash all debate in reference to it and attack the credibility of everyone involved. If you have mental issues and cannot stand to see others debate the theoretical operation of this device then please just stop posting.
I take it you are not going to answer my question?
QuoteLet's do a little thought experiment Farrah, if this device was hypothetically producing excess energy in the form of heat then where do you think the energy might come from and why?.
I'll just let it sit here a while then :)
Regards
AC
Lets see...
There are those that dream up ideas regardless of the promise or futility.
And there are those that stop everything because there are not enough proof or rules.
Hmm...
What is a person to do?
This reality is created by those that dream. There has been nothing created by the rule makers except more rules.
You will not fly, ride a bike, parachute, talk on the phone, go to the movies because these things are too fast and one will definately get whiplash should one stick their nose too far out the window.
Now things are instituted for the masses by the rule makers when things are deemed safe.
Now guess what?
The dreamers should not and never consult the rule makers and vice versa.
The rule makers are always the ones to start fights. Fights, I tellya. The dreamers get beat up all the time when they tell others the prospects of non futility. The bullies alway throw the first punch. It is the only defense they have when their world is being shook. Shook, I tellya!
So who is doing the fighting and who is doing the shaking.? Effiin' rabid monkeys....
Go herd cats, juggle crabs or something...
Well I guess that we are hoping for Chet or PhysicsProf to save the day. You know how threads always start with a lot of enthusiasm and eventually peter out. We had a smidgen of credible data from the EF thread that showed under unity but it appears that the thread has ground to a halt. Nobody knows what to say anymore.
So let's hope Chet's contact or PhysicsProf does some good testing.
The real disconnect is the following and I recognize the the fact that it's unresolvable: People present data that is sloppy, amateurish, incomplete and has no credibility. You read between the lines and all the signals are stating that the person presenting the data barely knows what they are doing and they are not credible. It's a fiasco. Camp A is incredulous that anybody can even take the proposal seriously. Camp B thinks that it is something worth investigating an it is "science" in action.
Now, of course what I just wrote above was from the "Camp A" perspective. It could also be rewritten from the "Camp B" perspective, no doubt.
The ultimate thing is that there is only one truth about the qualifications of the presenter and one truth about whether the proposal is true or not.
For me, Rosemary Ainslie, RomeroUK, and all flavours of the water heater experiment are not to be taken seriously for the reasons outlined above. For this water heater experiment, it's screaming in my ears at 120 decibels.
Camp B disagrees. So we wait for the inevitable, how all of these threads end. They just fade away and nothing comes from it.
Camp B says "You never know, line up the monkeys."
MileHigh
Permit me to play Devil's Advocate relative to my previous posting also. Supposing that someone came along with a free energy proposition where they presented their data in a credible way, their measurements looked solid, they appeared to be knowledgeable about the subject matter that they were discussing, etc. Well then that would be really interesting and much more fun to follow and discuss. That's the kind of person that I wish would come along, I really do. That would be a challenge and open up some really interesting debate.
The problem is those cases are so few and far between that it's like finding a needle in a haystack. Look at the recent featured clip on OU, "SELF CHARGING and ACCELERATING potential free energy motor generator." I watched that clip and a couple of other clips by the same guy. Guess what? The guy has no clue.... again! Foiled again in the quest for finding a challenging free energy proposition. There are a few clues in the main clip but I would have to watch it again to tell you exactly what they are. I watched another one of his clips and he makes reference to putting three big batteries in parallel, and they look like they might be lead-acid batteries. Some of you might not realize it but that statement shows how little he knows, he may as well have a Post-It note on his forehead that says, "Clueless." So he can't be taken seriously.
I will repeat it again, it would be great if something credible looking and really juicy came along. It's all Slim Pickens!
MileHigh
Good job AC, I'm proud of you! I'll engage this topic soon and we'll theorize the how and why in more detail.
MH, I sympathize, the pickings are slim indeed, that's why we theorize to keep this fun.
Farrah, water boiling phenomena is more complicated then you realize, it involves geometry and heat flow dynamics through solids, liquids, and gases, as in conduction and convection, it involves fluid dynamics, material phase change dynamics and latent heat, partial pressures, law of gasses, and God knows what else, and in this particular design discussed here it involves electricity and chemistry as well, but humans have boiled water for thousands of years so it must be a boring well known phenomenon, right? Wrong!
My advice, go get a f@&!? education on this topic! Sorry, but I had to say it, cause you are annoying me! Please leave Chet alone. Either keep an open mind and make positive contributions to the OU effort or go debate elsewhere. Here you seem to be playing the role of I'm smart and you're all dumb and foolish. I hope I'm mistaken, but you sure left a trail of negative discouraging postings towards this technology.
EM
Quote from: EMdevices on 2012.01.27, 13:10:12
Here you seem to be playing the role of I'm smart and you're all dumb and foolish. EM
Not really very hard to do given the nonsense people are continually posting, the lack of any real science and the unscientific approach people are taking to this device.
Very tired of the same old unsubstantiated claims from clueless folk, along with the mind-numbing rhetoric from others. So you'll be happy to know that I'm out of here - I'll simply watch things unfold from the sidelines and keep quiet. I should add, my expectations are not very high. :)
@EmDevices
Quotewater boiling phenomena is more complicated then you realize, it involves geometry and heat flow dynamics through solids, liquids, and gases, as in conduction and convection, it involves fluid dynamics, material phase change dynamics and latent heat, partial pressures, law of gasses, and God knows what else, and in this particular design discussed here it involves electricity and chemistry as well, but humans have boiled water for thousands of years so it must be a boring well known phenomenon, right? Wrong!
Maybe this is why power engineers make upwards of $100K or more a year and I'm sure my friends would find Farrah's posts quite amusing. You see it is one thing to say Oh this is just simple boiling water and quite another to operate a 260MW power generation facility where this simple boiling water/steam would seem to be trying to destroy tens of millions of dollars of equipment on a daily basis. For example I have a steam generator online, a 400 foot run of 14" pipe to a steam turbine then I bring a second generator online. Someone forgets to check the rate control on my auto-valve and it slams open, the line pressure rises and some steam instantly condenses in the line and now I have a ton of water screaming down the line like a freight train at which point Mr.Newtons 1st law comes into play, things in motion tend to stay in motion. The high velocity slug of water hits a 90 Deg elbow or the regulator to the turbine and this generates massive forces and massive pressures and the equipment is instantly destroyed and now Farrah is sitting in the dark wondering why in the hell the lights don't work.
The issue here is that water boiling in a kettle cannot be compared to other systems with many variables involved because they are not the same and it should be obvious the dynamics are not the same.
Here is an excellent article I read on a regular basis concerning the dynamics involved in water and it also makes direct analogies to electrical phenomena --- http://www.rexresearch.com/bellocq/bellocq.htm
It's also kind of interesting that the patents to this were initially denied due to the fact they seemed to contradict most natural and scientific law at that time when in reality Mr.Bellocq is the only one who actually understood the laws to any extent, lol, priceless. It also shows that we can have effects in any given volume which only apply to one singular region of the volume and that it is not "all the same" as some might suggest.
Regards
AC
Farrah, trust me I totally understand the frustration, if you're "tired"," watching from the sidelines" should help you recover your strength, but I hope when you return with renewed strength and rejuvenation you wont start "beating up" the playing "children" again. In this mad digital world in which we all express ourselves, one can encounter a gamet of people from all walks of life, and if you want to impress or make a point or even teach anybody anything, leading by example is the best and most effective way, based on what I've seen in almost 20 years following free energy discussions online. In other words BUILD SOMETHING and then do a "show and tell" (if you dare and can handle the public scrutiny.)
Anyway, how are your hydroxy experiments going? (let's discuss elsewhere not here)
AC, nice post, big responsibility too, let's keep the lights on eh? Lol
EM
Quote from: allcanadian on 2012.01.26, 21:04:23
...
No I have a thing for people saying something cannot work without justification
...
We don't need justification: "What is asserted without proof can be denied without proof". Euclid.
The (possible) inventor has the burden of proof. A free energy machine must be considered to not work until the experimental evidence is shown and is strong enough for third party duplications.
@exnihiloest
QuoteWe don't need justification: "What is asserted without proof can be denied without proof". Euclid.
Sweet :D, if we want to apply this thought in another context then I deny your existence exnihiloest because I have no proof you do exist and for all I know you are simply an automated machine sitting in some dark basement somewhere thus I must assume you do not exist and dismiss all your statements until such time that you can offer me absolute proof that you do exist in reality, you see the burden of proof is with you.
let's play a word game.
You said -----
QuoteThe (possible) inventor has the burden of proof. A free energy machine must be considered to not work until the experimental evidence is shown and is strong enough for third party duplications.
And I say -----
QuoteThe (possible) person has the burden of proof. A possible person must be considered to not exist until absolute proof is shown and this proof is strong enough for third party validation.
I hope you can appreciate how absurd this sounds yet this is what you are implying and only the context has changed, I have a theory and you can quote me on this----"If it sounds absurd it probably is".
On another note here just how silly this absurdness-ness really is , if you do not exist until such time as you can offer me absolute proof you do and I must discount all your statements until that time then you cannot offer me any proof can you?. Kind of like a cat chasing it's tail which is equally absurd.
Regards
AC
Quote from: allcanadian on 2012.01.27, 17:29:33
@exnihiloest
Sweet :D, if we want to apply this thought in another context then I deny your existence exnihiloest because I have no proof you do exist
...
"What is asserted without proof can be denied without proof" means that we have not to accept anything that is affirmed for the only reason that it is affirmed.
My existence is not affirmed, so denying what is not affirmed is completely outside of this Euclid's thought.
I hope it is only from you a lack of understanding of Euclid's thought, and not because you take Euclid for a twit...
@exnihiloest
Quote"What is asserted without proof can be denied without proof" means that we have not to accept anything that is affirmed for the only reason that it is affirmed.
My existence is not affirmed, so denying what is not affirmed is completely outside of this Euclid's thought.
I hope it is only from you a lack of understanding of Euclid's thought, and not because you take Euclid for a twit...
Sweet :D, not only do I deny your existence but also the interpretation of Euclid's thought's posted here because logically this assertion of Euclid's thoughts can be denied without proof as none has been given. That is unless the person posting here believed that they could read Euclid's mind or thoughts in some way which seems quite absurd but still it is not proof of anything.
You see this is the problem with using circular logic where one frame of thought builds on another, not unlike a cat chasing it's tail, because it must always come full circle. Which leads to my next thought, you seem like a smart enough person but apparently not smart enough to know your playing a game that cannot be won because you have one perspective which is yours and you assume it must be correct only because it is yours, you may want to refer to your textbooks to understand why this is so whacked. A psychology textbook may be a good start, I would suggest a book called The Crowd: A Study of the Popular Mind by Gustave Le Bon.
Regards
AC
AC,
I declare that Ex exists!
There is no proof, no theory and no hypothesis.
Take it from there ;D
I am wondering if he is actually a #BASH script running on some forgotten Linux box ???
Perhaps he is only the result of attempting to verify 'The Fifth Postulate'?
That would be too bad as anyone with a brain knows that Euclidean space only exists on paper and within an operating algorithm.
Quote from: allcanadian on 2012.01.30, 10:28:40
@exnihiloest
Sweet :D, not only do I deny your existence but also the interpretation of Euclid's thought's posted here because logically this assertion of Euclid's thoughts can be denied without proof as none has been given.
It is your right. In that matter, you will not be alone. There are hundred millions people denying the existence of Krishna because they believe in Jeovah, and vice versa. You can affirm anything until you understand that we are not here on a religious forum outside of logic and reality.
Science concerns only what can be observed (directly or indirectly). There must be objective facts, then we theorize from the observations and build from the facts.
If something is affirmed without proof, without elements of reality, without logical arguments from facts, then this "something" is outside of our reality and observations. So it is "irrefutable", meaning that it contains nothing that could be rationally challenged. As it is out of our reality, it is not the object of science because it can't be discussed with objective and logical arguments, and therefore it can be denied in the same way as it has been affirmed, simply, without proof for the reason that proofs are impossible. Euclid is a genious and the quotation is a great help to eliminate the jargon of pseudo-scientists without wasting time.
You should learn what is science and what is required by the scientific method. Then you will understand that there is absolutely no circular argument in Euclid's sentence, and that the circular argument is just an idea emerging in your mind from an incomplete view of a general question of logic in which Euclid's sentence is embedded.
Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2012.01.30, 10:47:02
AC,
I declare that Ex exists!
There is no proof, no theory and no hypothesis.
...
Therefore it is the same as for the existence of overunity.
I'm disappointed that my chance to exist would be so low.
:)
I will strive to produce an acceptable hypothesis, then a testable theory and an experiment to prove his existence.
Until then, everything I say about him may be easily denied and complaints of illogical statements brought forward.
After all, everything I say is a lie, including this statement.
Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012.01.27, 16:34:05
"What is asserted without proof can be denied without proof". Euclid.
There always limitation to everything. If you work in an airport as security and someone call in "there is a bomb in your airport", you can deny them but you won't.
We should make exception for the free energy community that " What is asserted without proof can be reinforced with proof" just because we can.
Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2012.01.30, 14:15:03
...
We should make exception for the free energy community that "What is asserted without proof can be reinforced with proof" just because we can.
"What is asserted without proof could be reinforced with proof", yes, but only sometimes when what is asserted is at least somewhere linked to observations, facts and reality. It is not a generality.
A typical example is the hoax of the "gravity wave detector" from Groundloop (the thread is now censored, the posts from several members emphasizing the flaws and asking the good questions have been removed).
There is not one logical argument that could link this detector and gravity waves. When I ironically asserted that his detector could as well detect the farts of the invisible Pink Unicorn feeling an earthquake and scared, do you really believe that this can be "reinforced with proof"? Certainly not and as well for the gravity waves, because both assertions are completely unfounded, not one argument being given in favor of a causal relation between GW or Unicorn's farts and the signal from the detector.
So what do we want? Do we want to dream extravagant laws of an imaginary Nature that is not ours and so, never be able to build a single machine that works, or do we want to confront with reality and unravel mysteries of Nature in order to use it at our convenience? If the second point is our goal, then we have not to try to prove that anything we could imagine is real, but we have to imagine what could be the reality by deducing it directly and logically from what we observe.
exnihiloest,
I think your point about the gravity wave detector has been driven home.
The first post of that thread has been edited to account for and to qualify the title. Whether it is detecting gravity waves or not is yet to be proven, but I think it's time to move on from there. Certainly GL is not trying to perpetuate a hoax...it's simply a name based on a theory.
GL is a valued contributing member here and he should be commended for that. Your posts also serve a purpose, but let's be sure things don't get out of hand, ok?
Cheers.
.99
Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2012.01.30, 13:38:52
I will strive to produce an acceptable hypothesis, then a testable theory and an experiment to prove his existence.
...
The hypothesis also must be testable, and the first to be tested. It would be totally inefficient to build big theories on unfounded hypotheses.
@Poynt99
"Certainly GL is not trying to perpetuate a hoax..." but "the road to hell is paved with good intention". I don't judge anyone on alleged intent, but I challenge what he really says when there are good reasons.
Still maintaining that GW waves could be related to this kind of detector, without making a consistent hypothesis about a causal relation and when it is not even proved that gravity waves are generated by earthquakes, is a lie. Maybe I'm as proud as William of Baskerville in "The Name of the Rose" but I maintain without worrying about the consequences, that it is a lie.
GL is a valued contributing member, perhaps in electronics, but his pseudo-"gw detector" is a disservice to the community. The truth and the reality, or the pleasure of the wishful thinking, we have to choose. As I know that the second way is the easiest and the nicest for a personal satisfaction, I have no doubt that it attracts many people, especially the less skilled, and that GL will have followers for animating the forum with a funny entertainment and a personal pleasant infatuation but certainly not to get the austere goal that was set.
Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012.01.31, 08:55:39
"What is asserted without proof could be reinforced with proof", yes, but only sometimes when what is asserted is at least somewhere linked to observations, facts and reality. It is not a generality.
A typical example is the hoax of the "gravity wave detector" from Groundloop (the thread is now censored, the posts from several members emphasizing the flaws and asking the good questions have been removed).
There is not one logical argument that could link this detector and gravity waves. When I ironically asserted that his detector could as well detect the farts of the invisible Pink Unicorn feeling an earthquake and scared, do you really believe that this can be "reinforced with proof"? Certainly not and as well for the gravity waves, because both assertions are completely unfounded, not one argument being given in favor of a causal relation between GW or Unicorn's farts and the signal from the detector.
So what do we want? Do we want to dream extravagant laws of an imaginary Nature that is not ours and so, never be able to build a single machine that works, or do we want to confront with reality and unravel mysteries of Nature in order to use it at our convenience? If the second point is our goal, then we have not to try to prove that anything we could imagine is real, but we have to imagine what could be the reality by deducing it directly and logically from what we observe.
What I see is that one can lack in recognizing genuine in others. Sometimes small things in life can make you happy if you can recognize it. I don't agree that the GW machine doesn't work. It shows something relating to earthquakes. He doesn't have an explanation just be cause he doesn't, he's a builder. Actually it's your job to explain what is happening, but because you can't agree that it shows anything interesting, you dismissed it.
The bottom line is an anomly happens and it is picked up. What the hell is wrong with that?
It is what WaveWatcher's signature says. Paraphrase [Get out of my I am doing work...]
I believe Ex exists...Some how he always has and he always will........Super EX...
Just like perpetual motion being unusual?? Everything is always moving... we just don't notice [perspective].
Oh and Immortality....Everything on the planet comes with a free update [seed] ...Everything with out exception!! for some reason the update gets canceled [no renewals] after one use...........
A design feature [for now]!
Very Cool place we have here !!
Thats my theory
Chet
PS
And as far as my friend Groundloop ....
Our world is a much better place with Groundloop in it!
Much better................
Wasn't the trigger for all of these expensive gravity wave detection systems based upon a single individual with massive aluminum cylinders and piezoelectric sensors? His results were determined to be false or falsified?
If that is true then why do we spend huge amounts of money for elaborate systems and absolutely no evidence any of them may work?
I'll tell you all something that may explain why I don't elaborate on my basis for my interest in GroundLoop's project.....
More than enough preliminary work and discussion has already taken place in a far more formal atmosphere than here. I do not and probably never will feel the need to start the normal fiasco of post bombing, name calling, insults and attempted degradation by the usual sources here and on other 'less professional' forums.
As we can see, for a few Science is more a philosophy than the tool it should be. For others, it is simply a religion and woe be the blasphemers!
To me, laying out a multibillion dollar set of lasers and mirrors with the beams along the same plane and none normal to the Earth's surface is just plain stupid. The height of the stupidity is the gargantuan size of these practical jokes. Why can't these fools understand that the laser beam is nothing more than an adjunct to the real gravity wave sensor - The Earth.
Don't get me wrong. I don't disagree with the purpose and expectations of the laser beams. Neither do the people performing the same tests with equipment that would fit in a small garage.
Don't expect them to publish their work very soon. The last attempt collected nothing but denial without cause from the likes of some here.
The so-called 'real scientists' can continue with trying to build massive sensors capable of tuning into the upper terahertz region when the wave isn't even transverse. I'm sure these bastards are pocketing plenty of money in the process. What difference does it make if some small group of 'ignorants' look to some like they are trying to take money or the real thieves rip enough money to feed most of the third world with ridiculously idiotic projects when they have already been shown such is not required.
You want to know the real reason why the latest satellite gravity wave project stopped in its tracks?
Investigate yourselves. I doubt any text or link I provide would be considered trustworthy by some. I'm just an ignorant ;D
Oh! I forgot....
I haven't seen enough data to continue the effort of building a proof for the animate existence of one thought to be an individual. My 'best guess' is it is nothing but a later version of 'Elisa' from the TRS-80 days. It was fun talking to her too.... for about 10 seconds. ;)
@Wavewatcher
QuoteThe so-called 'real scientists' can continue with trying to build massive sensors capable of tuning into the upper terahertz region when the wave isn't even transverse. I'm sure these bastards are pocketing plenty of money in the process. What difference does it make if some small group of 'ignorants' look to some like they are trying to take money or the real thieves rip enough money to feed most of the third world with ridiculously idiotic projects when they have already been shown such is not required.
It's kind of funny that many of the critics here seemed so very concerned that some may intentionally send a small amount of money to something they consider a hoax and yet nobody blinks an eye at the frequent billion dollar boondoggles we see in the supposed name of science. It kind of puts a whole new spin on the word hoax when the taxpayers fighting just to make ends meet are FORCED to pay for complete and utter f@#king nonsense. That is we know it is a farce and we know there is no way in hell this kind of stupidity is going to work and yet we are forced to pay for it against our will. If the critics here really have our best interests at heart then maybe they should go criticize these assholes into submission and leave the experimenters here alone.
Regards
AC
AC:
QuoteThat is we know it is a farce and we know there is no way in hell this kind of stupidity is going to work
Famous words from you considering that you just contradicted yourself with respect to about 90% of the postings that you have made on this site.
MileHigh
@Milehigh
QuoteFamous words from you considering that you just contradicted yourself with respect to about 90% of the postings that you have made on this site.
It is one thing to explore the realm of science and quite another to be forced against our will to fund drivel, I did not ask for it, I did not approve it and I was never given a choice. If someone wants to fund experiments for themselves then that's great or if they want to seek private funding from those willing even better however giving away billions of taxpayers dollars to any half-wit with a degree spouting gibberish is not acceptable in my books.
Regards
AC
ha ha Who is a half-wit and who is spouting gibberish? Who decides? YOU? lol
@Milehigh where do you stand on a free energy device, in your opinion is it even possible.
Most people here I can figure out where there coming from,concerning free energy,you I have trouble with,so I have to ask
you.At times you go in both ways ,a believer that its possible but you need to do better measurements to be sure and a skeptic that its not possible at all.
Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2012.01.31, 14:46:25
...
Actually it's your job to explain what is happening, but because you can't agree that it shows anything interesting, you dismissed it.
This is false.
I don't say that it is not interesting, because we can't yet know if there is something interesting or not.
I don't dismiss the detector, I dismiss only the possibility it detects gw and the method consisting to suppose a priori that it detects gw when there is not one evidence, instead of making an analysis keeping open all possibilities, including even possible measurement artefacts.
Quote from: cheappower2012 on 2012.02.01, 06:17:12
@Milehigh where do you stand on a free energy device, in your opinion is it even possible.
Most people here I can figure out where there coming from,concerning free energy,you I have trouble with,so I have to ask
you.At times you go in both ways ,a believer that its possible but you need to do better measurements to be sure and a skeptic that its not possible at all.
A skeptic is not someone who denies everything, it is someone who has an intellectual requirement: to get reasonable proofs of everything that is asserted.
It is clear that science succeeded in convincing skeptics. Science affirms that there are electromagnetic waves or planets in extrasolar systems that the skeptics can't see, and nevertheless all skeptics agree. Why do they agree? Because both experimental evidences and logical reasoning are presented to support these affirmations, with an enough level of confidence.
The level of confidence comes from the fact that those who make science are also skeptics. So they have to convince themselves and for that, they have explored each alternative explanation for their observations, dismissed errors or internal inconsistencies, and finally they present only a very solid matter which is generally the right hypothesis beyond any doubt.
Free energy will be science and therefore reality when free energy will operate in this way and will convince skeptics. As long as contributors to free energy research will remain in a believing attitude, not challenging free energy claims, not exploring alternative but more conventional explanations, accepting arguments only going in their direction, refusing to carefully analyze the objections because they make them upset, and discarding the skeptics in the same way that Christian believers discarded the "witches" or the free thinkers in the past, they will be unable to invent a real machine that works and they will remain perpetual losers as today.
We hear about free energy mainly from the 80's. Does someone here has a free energy machine? Is there someone here who doesn't pay his electricity? So you see, faith is by far not enough to heat your house or to power your washer machine. Think differently: we don't search the holy grail, no need to believe, we are curious, we explore the unknown, and we take what we find and that could be useful!
Quote from: allcanadian on 2012.02.01, 02:31:42
...to any half-wit with a degree spouting gibberish is not acceptable in my books.
Regards
AC
What... Now you are sounding just like me - and you openly slam me every time I speak of half-wits and gibberish! As I've alluded to on numerous occasions now, it is quite clear that you simply find pleasure in posting for arguments sake, with the underlying issues themselves being of no real concern to you.
At least I'm consistent. What a hypocrite you are. >:(
Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012.02.01, 07:34:13
This is false.
I don't say that it is not interesting, because we can't yet know if there is something interesting or not.
I don't dismiss the detector, I dismiss only the possibility it detects gw and the method consisting to suppose a priori that it detects gw when there is not one evidence, instead of making an analysis keeping open all possibilities, including even possible measurement artefacts.
That is good. You seems to know the theory behinds good science, just need to put it in practice. My suggestion is that every time you make an argument, find its counter argument. Every argument has a counter argument. This way, you'll never want to argue again unless it is necessary.
@Farrahday
QuoteWhat... Now you are sounding just like me - and you openly slam me every time I speak of half-wits and gibberish! As I've alluded to on numerous occasions now, it is quite clear that you simply find pleasure in posting for arguments sake, with the underlying issues themselves being of no real concern to you.
It sounds pretty silly doesn't it ?,and I would agree completely that it does however sometimes one has to see themselves in others to understand the error in their ways. As far as the underlying issues are concerned I believe they are very important however my message is as abstract as my thoughts generally are. You see my point is that some are judging the validity of science not on actual facts but the credibility of the messenger, should we judge the credibility of our mail based solely on how well spoken the mailman is?, Well no that's silly. I believe the fact of the matter is and has always been that some seem to have no issue with giving millions to anyone with a degree to chase some imaginary hocus pocus but would not give a dime to another even if the science had credibility. So we are left with notion that it is not so much science but stereotyping and I knew full well the critics here would jump on the bandwagon to harshly criticize my post and they did , thank you.
@Milehigh
Quoteha ha Who is a half-wit and who is spouting gibberish? Who decides? YOU? lol
If you can continually do it then why not me?, I am not and never was above or below you Milehigh I am not for or against, we stand together, we all do and we always have. I think you and the others know full well what I do here, I stir the pot and see what comes to the surface, usually it is the truth with a sprinkle of understanding sometimes not. To know one's self is just as important to me as understanding others as in many cases I am them I just do not realize it.
Regards
AC
QuoteI stir the pot
Soups on...
Quote from: Farrah Day on 2012.02.01, 11:42:40
What... Now you are sounding just like me - and you openly slam me every time I speak of half-wits and gibberish! As I've alluded to on numerous occasions now, it is quite clear that you simply find pleasure in posting for arguments sake, with the underlying issues themselves being of no real concern to you.
At least I'm consistent. What a hypocrite you are. >:(
The above is a poignant example of why it is so
impossibly difficult to dislike this woman - she is very
perceptive and RIGHT about many things!
AC:
QuoteIf you can continually do it then why not me?
Exactly, and that's the point. I have no problem with you doing it.
Cheappower2012:
I would believe it if I ever saw it, that's as far as I can go. The harmony and symmetry in science and Nature makes over unity look like an extremely unlikely proposition. The next time you see someone with an electronic circuit that they claim is over unity I suggest that you ask them to explain how the circuit works and to make a timing diagram. Ask them to show you precisely where on the timing diagram the over unity is manifesting itself.
MileHigh
Overt power from a nexus of smaller units is a law of physics.
Can you say rogue wave? Cuts through steel like butter.
Dumped
Quote:
The above is a poignant example of why it is so
impossibly difficult to dislike this woman - she is very
perceptive and RIGHT about many things!
---------------------------------------
SSSSOOooo
If I didn't know better I'd say you two's were Married??
A bit hen pecked even!!
At the very least it sounds like you have a crunch on Farrah??
AHHHh Forum romance ...........
Giantkiller:
QuoteOvert power from a nexus of smaller units is a law of physics.
Can you say rogue wave? Cuts through steel like butter.
You have some serious competition:
You walk into the room
With your pencil in your hand
You see somebody naked
And you say, "Who is that man?"
You try so hard
But you don't understand
Just what you'll say
When you get home.
Because something is happening here
But you don't know what it is
Do you, Mister Jones?
You raise up your head
And you ask, "Is this where it is?"
And somebody points to you and says
"It's his"
And you say, "What's mine?"
And somebody else says, "Where what is?"
And you say, "Oh my God
Am I here all alone?"
But something is happening here
But you don't know what it is
Do you, Mister Jones?
@MH,
You totally lost me on this one...
Did you google: rogue wave?
GK,
I'll assist. I speak 'MH' ;D
I think he is saying you may have previously experienced a Peregrine Soliton near the nexus between your ears :D
You do realize that most current 'scientists?' still don't believe a freak wave or 'three sisters' actually exists?
Ah yes,
Obiwan. The force is now with me.
I keep getting the acknowledgement I am talking to a single threaded male version of LISA hosted on a Commodore 64.
http://www.commodoreusa.net/CUSA_C64.aspx
@MH,
I got your special transformer, right here. >:-)
Giantkiller:
They were the first two verses of "Ballad of a Thin Man" by Bob Dylan.
I just Googled "rogue wave." Fascinating stuff. There are clips of surfers on YouTube where the surfer looks like an ant on the wave.
QuoteThe Peregrine soliton presents a double spatio-temporal localization. Therefore, starting from a weak oscillation on a continuous background, the Peregrine soliton develops undergoing a progressive increase of its amplitude and a narrowing of its temporal duration.
OMG that sounds like "free energy speak" but it's legit! lol
Also, you must know about that female engineer that put an entire C64 on a single chip and added 30 games and put the entire thing inside a joystick! I think that's hilarious, the entire computer plus games is
inside the joystick! Like the computer imploded.
QuoteYou hand in your ticket
And you go watch the geek
Who immediately walks up to you
When he hears you speak
And says, "How does it feel
To be such a freak?"
And you say, "Impossible"
As he hands you a bone.
And something is happening here
But you don't know what it is
Do you, Mister Jones?
MileHigh
MH
Quote
And something is happening here
But you don't know what it is
Do you, M H ??
------------
Catchy tune.....
I hope to be Singing you that tune shortly!![I'm practicing humming it Now ;!)
THX
Chet
If your humming resonates with your coils...
You'll feel the choir singing in your temple...
Kablooie!
Kinda like a reverse Daniel Pomerleau.
Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2012.02.01, 14:42:35
...My suggestion is that every time you make an argument, find its counter argument. Every argument has a counter argument. This way, you'll never want to argue again unless it is necessary.
"Every argument has a counter argument": when we deal with facts, observations, measurements, math and logic, it's possible. Nevertheless the goal is to get a right argument, the best one that fits our observations. The goal is neither to make a collection of arguments nor to challenge a solid argument with a weak counter argument. We must have operational results so we must be able to reject bad arguments. The arguments are not all of even relevance. When I propose an argument, it is the result of a choice among several different or opposed arguments. If someone has a better one, he can give it, we can change our mind.
When we deal with faith, beliefs, and opinions, it's false: there is no possible counter argument, but other faith, beliefs, and opinions, just to be affirmed outside of the reason. Normally this second point should never happen here :).
Quote from: ramset on 2012.01.31, 21:19:30
I believe Ex exists...Some how he always has and he always will........Super EX...
Just like perpetual motion being unusual?? Everything is always moving...
...
"Everything is always moving", yes, for example electrons around the nucleus.
I suppose that each of us know this, and also that the question is to extract energy from motion without stopping the moving object: this is the real concept under "perpetual motion".
Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012.02.03, 13:06:29
"Every argument has a counter argument": when we deal with facts, observations, measurements, math and logic, it's possible. Nevertheless the goal is to get a right argument, the best one that fits our observations. The goal is neither to make a collection of arguments nor to challenge a solid argument with a weak counter argument. We must have operational results so we must be able to reject bad arguments. The arguments are not all of even relevance. When I propose an argument, it is the result of a choice among several different or opposed arguments. If someone has a better one, he can give it, we can change our mind.
When we deal with faith, beliefs, and opinions, it's false: there is no possible counter argument, but other faith, beliefs, and opinions, just to be affirmed outside of the reason. Normally this second point should never happen here :).
The problem is that those who judge arguments are audiences, not the the people who argues.
Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2012.02.03, 13:43:30
The problem is that those who judge arguments are audiences, not the the people who argues.
In science, an argument is logically related to the observations.
If only faith, beliefs, and opinions are expressed in a thread, there is nothing to argue.
Unnecessary dribble removed.
Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012.02.09, 09:14:46
In science, an argument is logically related to the observations.
If only faith, beliefs, and opinions are expressed in a thread, there is nothing to argue.
The thing is when experimenters made some observation and report it, men of knowledge said you see things wrong. Knowledge has override observations. Some of us merely give alternative theory to better fit observation, if current science able to give better logic then the audience would feel it.
I'm not unreasonable. I give credit when I see you have a point. I don't fight to win, I fight to open people's heart. Right now we're lack of free energy, but what we lack more is love. It seems like I'm creating oppositions, but I hope more people would understand my feeling.
Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012.02.09, 09:14:46
In science, an argument is logically related to the observations.
If only faith, beliefs, and opinions are expressed in a thread, there is nothing to argue.
I've learned from experience that even opinions on anything can be argued. People used to believe that, scientifically, the world was flat---and possibly arguably so. Also, religion can be argued to the point of martyrdom.
However,
Traditional Native Americans don't argue about their God, the Great Spirit, whatever it's called in their own language.
--Lee
@exnihiloest
QuoteIn science, an argument is logically related to the observations.
If only faith, beliefs, and opinions are expressed in a thread, there is nothing to argue.
I think you forgot to mention the part where mainstream science believes that basically all the fundamental forces relate directly to some magical virtual particles popping in and out of existence from some other magical universes and none of this has ever been observed let alone proven in any way, is this the kind of logic your referring to?. To err is human.
Regards
AC
So what percentage is calculation compared to belief when Orville's feet left the ground for the first time.
You can not measure the exhileration of the OMG moment when reality bends to your will regardless of the calculations.
This is only known to those who make an adventure an not simply follow a rote path.
Giantkiller:
I've got some insight for you on the often abused Wright Brothers story. They followed a rote path. Enlightened scientific minds in the latter part of the 19th century already knew that powered flight was possible and some of them made thousands of flights with gliders with a human pilot. They did the calculations and they knew ahead of time that they needed a power source with a certain minimum power to weight ratio to make powered flight possible. Then the internal combustion engine came along at the Wright Brothers adapted a disciplined engineering-style approach (a.k.a. "by rote") to create their flying machine.
It kind of turns the whole "look at the Wright Brothers as an inspiration for free energy" argument on its head, doesn't it? It was the enlightened scientific minds that knew ahead of time that powered flight was possible, they were not the ones that were dismissing the concept.
MileHigh
@Milehigh
QuoteIt kind of turns the whole "look at the Wright Brothers as an inspiration for free energy" argument on its head, doesn't it? It was the enlightened scientific minds that knew ahead of time that powered flight was possible, they were not the ones that were dismissing the concept.
Actually no it does not and in fact it verifies the concept of free energy. You see the Wright brothers knew powered flight was possible dispite the fact that 99% of the population believed it was not ---- just as we know as a proven fact that we are swimming in a sea of energy dispite the fact 99% of the population believes we are not, science is not a popularity contest.
Now the Wright brothers knew powered flight was possible in fact it was relatively straightforward what was required however is they needed certain technologies to come into play before they could achieve success. We know we are swimming in a sea of energy that is inherently free and this is not a subject which needs debate, we know it as a fact, however we are in the same predicament as the Wright brothers in that we know it is possible but we need certain technologies to be developed before we will be successful. As it turns one technology is already here, Nano-technology, whereby specifically engineered materials may absorb or reflect electromagnetic energy and convert it directly into usable quanities of electrical energy. As well there is a great deal of research into something I predicted damn near two decades ago, it will not be one singular region of the EM spectrum but very large portions of it. Consider a panel or laminate which transforms light, heat, all man-made RF signals as well as other natural sources of radiated EM energy directly into electrical energy and you may start to understand the magnitude of what I'm speaking of. As well these engineered materials have peculiar know properties, one is that almost no energy is reflected back outward which means the material is a natural energy sink which is exactly what one Nikola Tesla described in detail 112 years ago ("The Problem of Increasing Human Energy" June 1900). A singular region into which external energy flows and is then transformed into another form of energy in which case nothing is reflected, it is a one way transformation acting inward -- welcome to the future.
Now one can sit on their ass and pretend all space is devoid of energy and live in a world of make-believe or we can accept the proven fact that we are surrounded by all the energy we could ever need we just don't know how to convert it effeciently at this point in time. To be honest most days I have no idea what in the hell you could possibly be thinking nor why --- really, we know as a fact we are swimming in a sea of energy which is inherently free and every day new technologies get closer and closer to economically extracting this energy and to say it will never happen is just as absurd as the people who said man will never fly.
Regards
AC
AC:
QuoteActually no it does not and in fact it verifies the concept of free energy. You see the Wright brothers knew powered flight was possible dispite the fact that 99% of the population believed it was not ---- just as we know as a proven fact that we are swimming in a sea of energy dispite the fact 99% of the population believes we are not, science is not a popularity contest.
So you are sort of implying that in both cases we are dealing with an uninformed public and therefore they are the same? That's nonsense. Where you are correct is that the two premises are supposed to be based on a realizable application of science.
The science behind powered flight is an established reality.
For free energy, let's look at some science angles.
1. Science clearly states that you can't get something from nothing. It's also common sense.
However, let's look at the "sea of energy" argument.
2. If you are talking about the sun, for sure we can get energy from the sun. However, that's not "free energy" and please let's not get into the whole "renewable vs. free" definition debate.
3. If you are talking about the fact that we are in a sea of thermal energy, that's true. That comes from the sun and from the core of the Earth. There must be a temperature differential to exploit this as an energy source. It can be exploited in limited amounts. But just the fact that we live in a "sea of thermal energy" at more or less the same 293 degrees Kelvin temperature is not exploitable.
4. Then there is the "Dirac Sea" of energy. The property of space itself represents energy. In one cubic centimeter of space there are gigawatts of possible power, bla bla bla. People that play with coils fantasize that their coils are "entry points" for this energy.
As far as I am aware, there are no technologies around that can tap into the "Dirac Sea" "Wheel-work of Nature" energy. There are a lot of free energy cons that claim they do but they are never true.
Continued in part 2.....
Part 2......
You talk about nanotechnology absorbing EM energy and converting it into electricity. It sounds exciting but my suspicion is that will result in more efficient solar cells and not much more than that. There will never be a "black-body brick" that you can keep in the basement of your home that just "sucks up energy" and turns it into an unlimited supply of electrical power, that's just a fantasy.
Quotereally, we know as a fact we are swimming in a sea of energy which is inherently free and every day new technologies get closer and closer to economically extracting this energy and to say it will never happen is just as absurd as the people who said man will never fly.
I don't buy it. We can work on extracting renewable energy and the sun is the biggie. In 100 years it's possible to envision almost all of our electrical energy needs coming from solar. But your "sea of energy" business outside of the solar aspect will likely never come to fruition. It's just too pie-in-the-sky.
So I am not ruling it out completely but I view it as extremely unlikely. Both types of fusion reactor will come online way before any "sea of energy" speculation comes true.
So when you look at it, you have solar and other renewable sources, and two different possible types of fusion reactor to replace fossil fuels and fission reactors. What you are talking about is in the realm of Star Trek and is extremely unlikely.
In that sense the way of looking at the Wright Brothers as I stated it holds true. The Wright Brothers built something that has a rational scientific basis for it to work. The conventional notion of "free energy" in the parlance of the forums has no rational scientific basis for it to work. Your "sea of energy" idea is intriguing but for the foreseeable future there is no tangible way to realize it. In that sense it's not much different from the idea of "free energy" we see discussed on a daily basis in the forums.
Anyway, that's my take on it. There is no connection whatsoever between something like a RomeroUK motor that is "supposed to create energy out of nothingness without any kind of rational explanation" and what the Wright Brothers did. There are real limits to what we can do in the real world. RomeroUK was a con that cheated.
Again, I am not saying that some amazing new technologies won't be coming along in our lifetimes. Look at the world of semiconductors as compared to life before semiconductors. However, semiconductors have a rational basis for working, they are no different from tubes. You can talk to an iPhone 4s and it will do amazing things for you, it certainly would seem to be magic to someone from the 1930s. But if you told a scientist from the 1930s that it was just a giant football-field-sized bunch of vacuum tubes hooked together doing the work they might be able to get it.
So there will be amazing things coming out in the future but they will have some kind of (as yet unknown) rational basis for them working.
MileHigh
@Milehigh
QuoteSo you are sort of implying that in both cases we are dealing with an uninformed public and therefore they are the same? That's nonsense. Where you are correct is that the two premises are supposed to be based on a realizable application of science.
I would say the general population did not understand the nature of the problem which is a reaccuring theme throughout history.
QuoteThe science behind powered flight is an established reality.
That would depend on your understanding of it I guess, did you know that the first successful powered flight with flapping wings and full manuverability like that of a bird is in fact a very recent event. Imagine that, it was only in the last 10 years that anybody really had a clue how to engineer a powered craft that could fly just like a bird --- now tell me about all this supposed understanding we have of flight. It's funny that its' always the people who generally do not have a clue about a field of science that say all is understood while the real scientists all admit we still have a very long way to go.
Quote1. Science clearly states that you can't get something from nothing. It's also common sense.
However, let's look at the "sea of energy" argument.
Hmm, and this would probably explain why science clearly states the three fundamental fields relate to magical particles popping in and out of "existence" from some other magical universes we have never observed or proven to exist in any way, it would seem you are clearly wrong.
Quote2. If you are talking about the sun, for sure we can get energy from the sun. However, that's not "free energy" and please let's not get into the whole "renewable vs. free" definition debate.
It would seem you are the only one who does not seem to understand that free and renewable can be the same thing and it is an accepted definition by most professionals but apparently not by you, which is your problem not ours.
Quote3. If you are talking about the fact that we are in a sea of thermal energy, that's true. That comes from the sun and from the core of the Earth. There must be a temperature differential to exploit this as an energy source. It can be exploited in limited amounts. But just the fact that we live in a "sea of thermal energy" at more or less the same 293 degrees Kelvin temperature is not exploitable.
Please do not drag the concept of energy down to the primate level of heat as it is insulting to most intelligent people, I am speaking of Electro-Magnetic Energy that is the EM spectrum.
Quote4. Then there is the "Dirac Sea" of energy. The property of space itself represents energy. In one cubic centimeter of space there are gigawatts of possible power, bla bla bla. People that play with coils fantasize that their coils are "entry points" for this energy.
Nobel Prize winners with particles accelerators and billion dollar budgets would seem to have the same fantasy so I guess they are in good company :).
Part 2
QuoteYou talk about nanotechnology absorbing EM energy and converting it into electricity. It sounds exciting but my suspicion is that will result in more efficient solar cells and not much more than that. There will never be a "black-body brick" that you can keep in the basement of your home that just "sucks up energy" and turns it into an unlimited supply of electrical power, that's just a fantasy.
It seems obvious you do not have a clue what I'm talking about, go research nano-technology (not the wiki-BS the science journals) then come back when you think you can have something resembling an intelligent conversation.
Regards
AC
AC
Always the bad boy AC. Let's just hope the whole world doesn't accidentally get turned into grey goop by those self-replicating nano-robots!
The earth is flat.
Jesus was a fake.
They called Lister an idiot when he stated to wash your hands before touching wounds.
@mh,
We now have enough statements from you to prove you are not a creative thinker.
Your proofs do not represent the possibilities.
The world is a very dark place forever, isn't it?
Anybody that steps outside the box gets slapped, don't they?
Invent something and then tell us how much you know.
Help someone lesser than you then tell how big you [were].
You condemn Rosie and yourself in the same breath.
Giantkiller:
I don't know why you would say that I am not a creative thinker. You can still be creative while understanding that there are physical constraints that we have to live within. You seem to be implying the opposite.
You do profess the possibilities. I can offer a thought experiment though. Imagine if you did your bench experiments in conjunction with a colleague like Poynt or Ion or myself. Imagine a one-week session together. I think that you would benefit from that experience and gain more respect for the "classical" approach. You would learn what is happening when you "smack" coils and perhaps afterwards adopt a different terminology. Perhaps the most profound thing for you would to be able to "see through" your experiments and clearly master them.
Take the example of that Min2oly clip. I can see right through it. Min2oly is lost and is seeing things that aren't there. He thinks he is doing a teaching clip about "radiant energy" when in reality he is showing how he has bought into a story that is not true. He has been led astray by other people. That can be a dangerous thing as history has taught us.
It's a mistake Giantkiller to just say, "Let Rosie explore her theories." That's a slippery slope. This is definitely not a domain where it's "I'm OK - You're OK." It just doesn't work like that. Rosie is belligerently pushing for two over unity awards and as a result she got a push back. It's just another version of the Min2oly clip.
Ultimately you want the truth to be in line with the possibilities. You simply can't have the possibilities without factoring in the truth.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on 2012.02.12, 22:56:34
Always the bad boy AC. Let's just hope the whole world doesn't accidentally get turned into grey goop by those self-replicating nano-robots!
Not just hope. Pray.
These ideas began decades ago. Like the laser before one was made.
Years ago they already made nano motors, and Im sure the development since is greatly advanced.
Powering them can be like rfid's. And at the scale that they might be, they can most likely run on ambient rf, cell, broadcast, etc.
Its not just fantasy my friend.
Mags
Quote from: giantkiller on 2012.02.12, 23:03:51
Help someone lesser than you then tell how big you [were].
You condemn Rosie and yourself in the same breath.
What I find interesting, puzzling, and disturbing at times, is when people stand up for folks LIKE Rosemary by teaching what they feel is proper conduct. I often wonder why these people don't apply their "teachings" to ALL parties involved wherever reasonable?
hmmm ???
Quote from: MileHigh
...
Take the example of that Min2oly clip. I can see right through it. Min2oly is lost and is seeing things that aren't there. He thinks he is doing a teaching clip about "radiant energy" when in reality he is showing how he has bought into a story that is not true. He has been led astray by other people. That can be a dangerous thing as history has taught us.
...
I'd say that Min2Oly is misinterpreting what he's
observing on his instrumentation.
Confusing "Inductive Kickback" with "Radiant Energy"
is a very common mistake made by those who've
just begun their education.
Calling a capacitor a "Ten Joule" capacitor is somewhat
more puzzling.
He has much to learn; and yes, his "experiment" is
the most basic implementation of a "boost converter."
While the circuit does indeed produce a "radiant"
output (radio frequency energy) he's unfortunately
chosen the wrong instruments to demonstrate its
presence.
Possibly he has been "led astray" by the influences
of others. Incomplete understanding makes one
much more vulnerable to that sort of error.
Given time and continued study rectification may
yet occur. He's at the beginning of what may turn
out to be a long and productive journey.
@.99 and MH,
I wasn't sticking up for rosie. I am just curious why she is getting so much airplay here when nobody else seems to care about her. I surely don't. I can smell a farce really quick, whether they do too much or nothing at all.
She cant' claim a prize for running the wrong race. Can she? Prize? The amount is not worth it. The outcome is far more valuable than the small stipend offered. Besides, to get the check one would have to pop up out of the hole to claim it. This is not the sort of thing one wants to get famous for.
On my bench I have this low inductance coil with a compwave generation going on. The perplexing part is I can produce this small artifact without any trouble but have trouble tapping off of it.
Yes, the classics would be good. But I don't see anybody else producing this. So how could anybody offer help? It couples out at 90 degrees. I am in the place of putting diodes, caps, lc and rc filters and traps in place to sustain the coupled output. It is tough.
My spidey senses tells this process is important. Maybe I am alone in this because it doesn't matter. I would also like to hear from anybody else about this. Grumpy posted a couple of things to try which is what I am doing. Is everybody here working on this or do we stay in the basics when the process on my bench seems promising? I just want to know. Because if there is any other process then offer it up before class begins. Steven Mark offered all he could. That leaves involvement by the others in the videos. Are they here and do they know? The TPU is not a common place thing nor advertised correctly. If nobody can talk about it then that could get me or any else in trouble for doing this. Else it just another resonating transformer that goes into overload.
In the current coil I have run an iron wire loop between the collectors for a bias and a reader loop. The compwave generation started with 2 50ns second pulses at 100ns apart with a frequency of 14khz at 12volts into bifilar speaker cable wrap(22 turns) around a paper towel tube. The rest now is all a matter of configurations.
The iron wire loops exit the coil and then run parallel with an iron wire bundle under the copper and steel reader/bias coil. Not saying this is right. It is just another configuration to try.
Or when does class begin?
Quote from: giantkiller
...
Steven Mark offered all he could. That leaves involvement by the others in the videos. Are they here and do they know? The TPU is not a common place thing nor advertised correctly. If nobody can talk about it then that could get me or any else in trouble for doing this. Else it just another resonating transformer that goes into overload.
...
Steven Mark either did not truly know or
could not bring himself to admit the real
source of output energy from the TPU.
The true source is indeed external to the
circuitry.
There are several deep underground projects
which exploit that source. Certain of the
"Flying Objects" also rely upon that source.
Why is it so elusive? Tesla wrestled with this also.
It is not given to everyone... Only a few.
The obvious basics would be to use a molecular level device to communicate at an atomic level. The effect of the atomic manipulation is then absorbed by a molecular reader.
Even at an atomic level objects have a barrier or resistance to motion at some speed of impact. This barrier is what I believe is seen as the aether, like an alignment that is outside the normal range of standard electronic instruments.
Giantkiller:
Poynt and I have a history with Rosemary going back a couple of years. So it comes back periodically but it feels like we are at the end of a session. It may be the last session.
I have heard you mention "compwave generation" before but I am not sure exactly what you mean. If you want some feedback about what you are doing it's best if it's broken up into manageable chunks. That's up to you and I realize it takes work. You have to draw schematics and stuff like that.
As you know coils don't normally couple at 90 degrees. So chances are you are observing vestigial coupling.
Even if your observations seem to be out of the ordinary the assumption is that if you look at things step by step it will all make sense.
MileHigh
Giantkiller:
OK, if compwave generation is your 2 50ns second pulses at 100ns apart with a frequency of 14khz at 12volts into bifilar speaker cable then you have to show the circuit. Verbal is too limited and too taxing on the brain of the recipient of the information. Knowing the circuitry connected around the coil itself is critical.
MileHigh
It is an incredibly simple protocol. Just takes special hardware to do it.
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=834.msg14025#msg14025 (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=834.msg14025#msg14025)
Or
A bifilar coil with a iron wire resistance on one input to achieve the delay. The very thin pulses can be attained by one of Earl's cmos circuits.
And if you scroll down to the mini Tesla coil:
I got this exact same waveform again same scope setting of 500ns.
The ringing subsides into a slower wave form which equals 800khz.
(http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=834.0;attach=5122;image)
Giantkiller:
From what I can see you have a coil that is connected to the HV source + resistor on one end and some MOSFET switches on the other end. The MOSFET switches are mostly off and are switched on with your narrow pulses. Is that roughly it?
MileHigh
You are exactly correct. Low side switching is necessary.
I have run this on a number of low inductance coils and achieved the same results.
There are other pics that show a secondary bump. I believe this bump starts the lower frequency after the ringing subsides.
My thinking is to get the slower wave to resonate.
Well the way I would approach this would be to observe much longer pulses, say a millisecond, and then slowly reduce the width of the pulses and observe the trends.
From what I can see the basic thing that is going on is that when the MOSFET switches off the coil ends up open-ended so it will resonate with it's self-capacitance.
So perhaps with a longer pulse you will observe a standard high-frequency ringing when the MOSFET switches off. However, as the pulse gets shorter and shorter its width approaches the period of the ringing and it's like the pulse is overlapped with the ringing and you get the scope traces that you posted.
That's just a first guess.
MileHigh
Quote from: Lynn Picknett and Clive Prince...But in our view, there is another even more unsettling reason: they want us to think UFOs are extraterrestrial nuts-and-bolts machines and the aliens are flesh-and-blood in order to divert attention from the reality that the real 'aliens' co-exist invisibly with us on the Earth – and are the source of all cases of high strangeness.
Excerpted from the
Full Article.Pointing to the true source.
@MH,
If the pulse widths or delay is altered the event disappears.
The frequency of the protocol can be altered, that is the time between the pulse pair generation.
Giantkiller,
Please read the other posting that I just made to Mags and Groundloop. Your pulses are quite short and microwave transmission line effects may be coming into play. The voltage wavefront travels along the wire and then gets reflected back when it reaches the open-circuited end of the coil. Same as I said in the other posting, it may be more appropriate to call it a length of wire that acts like a transmission line than a coil when the pulses get very very short in duration.
So what you might really be looking at is voltage wavefronts bouncing back and forth along the length of wire that forms the coil, and any inductance effects are secondary or non-existent. You can see in some of your traces it looks roughly like two superimposed waveforms that are interfering with each other. If you tried a similar coil but with a longer total length of wire, you might start to recognize that the superimposed wavefronts are changing in their relative timing because of the longer transmission line length before the reflections takes place.
The bottom line Giantkiller, is that you are observing exactly what is supposed to be happening, nothing more and nothing less. An analogy is the whole pulse motor "speed up under load" or "delayed Lenz effect" business. In those cases nobody has achieved anything or has done something special, even though they think they have.
MileHigh