Through the years, we've performed experiments and we've seen a number of anomalies. It is my thought that if certain anomalies could be made reproducible AND freely available for the benefit of mankind, such "anomalies" could result in the breakthrough energy source that we seek.
Recently, Slider has corresponded with me about anomalies that he has seen in his experiments. I'm impressed!
LaserSaber and Groundloop mention anomalies seen in related circuits. There are other examples.
This thread is started to permit friendly discussion of "anomalous" results of Slider -- AND OTHERS. Join in the fun!
Thank you for starting the thread Steve.
Anomalous to myself could be common knowledge to others and indeed is why a thorough shake down and assessment is needed. I began down this Lasersaber SJR Looper/Akula road with the thinking that a 1K resistor over a cap with an LED was going to trump whatever circuit resistance would be 'in the way' from something built. But....
The running of a mains LED night light far better than a single white LED, an LED that jumps in brightness and recovers after flickering to what should be the end, a coil being enhanced by mains proximity and negatively being impacted by a 27MHz R/C controller are just a few of the reasons that my own thinking is changing.
To cut to the chase, my own 'best' with such a circuit is now a 3 minutes run, as shown in the video below:
Circuit details:
Core is from Nebraska Surplus, as kindly supplied by Steve and matches the one Lasersaber showed.
3300uF x 3 electrolytics on the front end (from the mid 90's so are what may be termed vintage)
3.6V ex cellphone li-ion battery as initial power source (measured and it's old too so never gets past 3.8V)
SMD '1P' 2N2222A.
The coil is an Akula wind, as determined by watching the video where Wesley translates the unravelling of a coil.
I'd like to know if i'm in the ball park ? - 160 winds of 24AWG first layer, 130 winds 24AWG second layer. Gapped copper pieces as per the video.
Then, a 3rd winding of 200 turns 34AWG, connected as per Lasersaber's red coil connections.
The rest of the circuit is per Lasersaber's SJR Looper and what would be the blue coil is connected to the bolt at the top...so it's a hybrid.
2 coils to LS's spec didn't run at all unfortunately and hence why the Akula type was tried. They did however run on my version of LS's circuit, which intends the ability to run any type of core that doesn't have a middle bolt through it.
Here's that video: http://youtu.be/nIcvbRzhdzo
Here is a list of the uploaded videos so far of relevance.
Bobbin Building - How I build the winding bobbins without owning a 3D printer - http://youtu.be/g3fZROqybcY
A good view of the present setup - http://youtu.be/KBYiKgFruGU
Ambient energies - the effects of a mains lamp being brought near to the coil and of the negative effects of a 27MHz R/C controller - http://youtu.be/OGoa21FKrtI
2min 40 sec run - this shows the sudden jumps upward in LED intensity that the circuit does all on it's own in the first minute of running. Then, the recovery back to stable light near the end, after it has faded and seemed to flicker out !
http://youtu.be/eZ7NCJgzFYA
Summaries and thoughts:
Transistors tried include C1815, MPSA14 (Darlington), C2236, but the '1P' SMD version of the 2N2222A that arrived in the mail today work best by a long way. 40 seconds was the record with a MPSA14, now it's up to 3 minutes.
Using this coil, the LED jumps in intensity in increments in the first minute of running.
At the rundown point where it flickers and should go out, it can recover to solid light output for several seconds again ?!?!
The circuit oscillates at 32kHz initially, falling to a plateau of 16kHz, then onward down til stopping. All is quite linear on the downward section, until near the end where it hunts all over the place around 2kHz.
The coil has an audible ring. It makes growling noises when no load is connected.
The circuit will natively run as a Joule Thief type on a 1.5V button cell.
A 9V battery doesn't make a whole heck of difference compared to 3.6V.
With no capacitors in place, the coil will sound just like an old camera flash circuit.
Run times appear unaffected by increases of mains night light capacitance above 4.1uF
The oscillation speed may be one factor, reducing it to about 40Hz would seem a good use of available energy for LED's.
Thanks, Mark, for providing a summary of the anomalies you are seeing with your SJR circuit and Akula-type transformer. Intriguing work! I see you have wound and tried three of the cores specified by LS. I'll send more cores just in case you need them; and are not burned out winding them...
QuoteThe coil has an audible ring. It makes growling noises when no load is connected.
The circuit will natively run as a Joule Thief type on a 1.5V button cell.
A 9V battery doesn't make a whole heck of difference compared to 3.6V.
With no capacitors in place, the coil will sound just like an old camera flash circuit.
Run times appear unaffected by increases of mains night light capacitance above 4.1uF
Questions:
Does your "mains night light" use an LED or an incandescent? I presume an LED. This would be rather like LS's mains' light he uses for a load.
The audible ringing of the coil must remove energy... Is there any way to quiet it? Did LS's coil make noise? (IIRC, it did not...)
What diodes are you using for your FWBR?
Can you sketch the circuit you are using to get the 3-minute run?
Thanks again.
Great idea for a thread guy's.
Mark-how do you think the old !cool joule! would stack up against LS latest setup?.
Well insted of soldering together or using bread board's for all these different circuit's,i remember as a child,having this 10 in 1 set. Well i found a 130 in 1 electronics set. Some may see this as just a kid's toy,but i see it as a very easy way to try many different circuit,without soldering or using messy bread board setup's. It is also very easy to add to, or change components on the board.
This is a very simply wqy to try many different circuit's-you just clip the wire under the spring's. Also had my two pot core's and 4 bobins turn up yesterday.
Good ideas, AquaTek.
Quote"Also had my two pot core's and 4 bobins turn up yesterday.
Where did you order the bobbins from? Does Nebraska surplus have them?
The 3 minute circuit is easy to describe and may not need a schematic.
It's the Lasersaber SJR Looper, but using the Akula type coil as shown in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lpx1SJdXnmo&feature=youtu.be&t=5m10s
Inner winding is LS's Green wire
Next winding is LS's Blue wire
An additional winding over the top (tertiary ?) of 34AWG 200 turns is LS's Red wire
So, it's intending to be the same construction as the Wesley voiced over video, but with a tertiary coil over the top.
The FWBR is of 1N34A germanium diodes.
Good point on the bobbins. If they're matched to the cores by being thin plastic and the correct height then that would save a lot of Dremmeling and be better for replicating if anything good happens along.
It would be fantastic to have more cores arrive, but I can certainly reuse the 3 here. The issue is probably wire, i'm using 24AWG from a TV degauss coil and have run out of 34AWG. But, I do have 30AWG on order and have a few previous coil builds to salvage from.
The 130-1 is not a bad idea at all. If you think how many times we wire up similar components to test out different circuits, then it seems a great idea to put such component pieces in one place. A sort of tailored breadboard, with often used elements in place.
The Cool Joule had high resistance as a main feature of the running, but does make the mind wander with a 'what if ?'.
I'll try 2 of this type of coil on a Cool Joule circuit. Perhaps center tapping or split winding a good Looper circuit coil would then require only 1 coil.
The mains night light is a Dollar Tree type. They use a blue LED.
The trickery is in the resistor and capacitor tank circuit, plus the diode. It seems to be a very regular method of running an LED from mains.
There is a lot of waste with the resistor, 1W being recommended because a 1/2W may burn up in regular mains use.
The resistor in the circuit I took apart has scorch marks ! So the method forward is to use a capacitor in series with the LED.
Some follow up links that are proving insightful regarding mains LED's:
http://www.bigclive.com/ledlmp.htm
http://www.marcspages.co.uk/tech/6103.htm
http://www.edaboard.com/thread30310.html
The TL494 of the Akula would allow for PWM frequency control, but there has to be a way of removing the loses that the chip will have. A different regulation, through turns of wire and capacitance is to be a focus of today - to stop it audibly ringing too.
@ PysicsProf
The bobbins and core's came from altronic's,but they are only 1" OD,so quite small-but should be ok for some testing.. The bobbins are suited to the core's,so will make winding easy.
I was given a nice large work bench yesterday,so will be rearanging the lab first up today.Then i need to try and fix my SG,as it will be needed for these test -along with many other thing's to come. But im hoping to have something up and running by day's end.
@ Slider
The only reason i asked about trying the cool joule circuit,was the anomalies that surrounded it. I could get mine to light an LED with just uA's of current,but it never occurred to me to try it with cap's at the time.
Anyway-off to get the lab up and running again,and start looking at some of these circuit's.
I would say that there are many routes for crossing bits of one circuit with another...the Cool Joule is certainly likely to feature !
It was so simple and so brilliant from our friend Brad.
Been a bit setback today, my soldering iron solder bit ran low and wouldn't come out of the middle. So I fixed up another.
In the interim, the use of a frequency generator on the power input appealed - perhaps linking with your SG thoughts and the need to fix it :).
My handheld scope seems to have messed up input ports on its 2 channels, but the freq gen output is fine.
The vid below explores using the frequency generator on its square wave setting.
In common with the way the circuit runs itself (on this coil and transistor), the best range is between 1kHz and 100kHz. Meter used for testing the frequency of the circuit is a Uni-T 136B.
I found it interesting how with a square wave coming in, rather than a DC voltage, the circuit runs very similarly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWezOm5OGN4
Duty cycles from 5% to 60% produce similar output, it then dropping off higher.
5% duty cycle gives pause for thought for efficiency.
As does the output voltage of the frequency generator at a measured 1.042V
Nice demo Mark.
I managed to get my SG up and going,so it will come in handy to check out different wave form's and frequencie's. New work bench is in and ready to go,so time to get cracking.
Brad
^ yes this friend Brad....I forgot you were AquaTek :-\
Good heavens that's funny, anyway, shows you that I like your work ! O0
I see all your posts changed over to TinMan, hmm, nifty forum feature.
Looking forward to your results and especially where a coil works best. Of course, it could be that most coils on this particular ferrite grade perform best at those frequencies.
Square wave has shown the best results, but it's basically an on/off trigger and cleanest of the signals.
What has also been interesting is that it outperforms the direct DC output, something to consider. Perhaps a frequency tuned chopper transistor could go on the front end to supply the main circuit....blocking oscillator type of thing, tuned to 1kHz with the regular tank section method to the Base.
Am winding an exact to ohm coil now of the 2 thicker gauge windings. 160+160 of the Akula bobbin layout. That will form a coil basis. Then will wind different amounts of finer gauge as the 3rd coil for run tests.
Ever been ecstatic and dejected at the same time ?
:o
The circuit now runs for 10 minutes plus !!!!
But, I started recording a video 3 minutes in to the run.
It looks like I have to change the feedback winding to trigger the Base of the transistor, because it's difficult to get started.
Needs more on the Base to keep the oscillations going.
It randomly started up when a finger was pressed on the negative rail and then, when the light had faded to a steady non decaying level...I ran for the camera to record something longer than previous runs.
All is explained in the video and I show the floral wire used, as the circuit plods along.
It lasted for 9 minutes 50 seconds in the video below.
But, as I say, I wished to start the thing properly with a few seconds of precharge and document a real run.
Will rewind tomorrow with more turns for the Base.
From the middle of the bobbin:
Gapped copper foil, connecting to
Inner coil 160 turns of 24AWG, then
Middle coil 160 turns of 24AWG
Gapped copper foil, not connected to anything
80 turns green floral wire
Each stage is protected from scratches with a turn of black electrical tape
http://youtu.be/5elv9037ZuE
(still uploading, 60% of 345mb, time for bed)
:)
Slider - great idea to run it with SG - and intriguing results. Hope you will keep going on this path also.
Over 9 minutes - very good!
"From the middle of the bobbin:
Gapped copper foil, connecting to
Inner coil 160 turns of 24AWG, then
Middle coil 160 turns of 24AWG
Gapped copper foil, not connected to anything
80 turns green floral wire "
This differs now quite a bit from LS's where the middle coil is several layers, perhaps a 10:1 ratio with respect to the inner coil.
But do you get better results really with 1:1 ratio?
I'll get it started up and do a frequencies run again...i'd like to see if this coil similarly runs at an average of 8kHz.
Then add to what is the red wire on LS's diagram, that translates as my outer winding.
Yep, the SG will now feature for all such low input coils and projects.
It does differ from LS's, but is the Akula winding method. When the 30AWG arrives i'll be able to retry with a middle fill up of the bobbin again. This route is also because the coils wound to LS's method didn't run at all on the circuit, but the other method does :)
This is a 2:1 ratio at the moment, being 160:80, the Primary being the green and the Base feed being the red. All that's really happened, is that the red middle coil of LS's has been shifted to the outside. In so doing, the coil ratio can be changed readily.
The floral wire will be ditched, as it filled up the space in the core at 80 turns.
An update:
It now has 200 winds of 30AWG, taken from an old project and starts up fine.
A timed run will be done and frequency measurements taken.
The '555-a-like' circuit from a couple of years ago will be tried on the front end, to give the square wave with variable duty cycle -
www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk63WijKZFc
The intention is a very low (uA) oscillator feeding in, to produce a stronger light output for a long duration. It drifts from the idea, but would satisfy a curiosity, based on the SG runs yesterday.
19 minutes !
:D
I called it The Paul Hardcastle Run (80's music reference).
The increase in Base trigger windings has made the difference. Also, it now sits around 1.070kHz and is very flat in that regard throughout. That video is to follow, where I will show frequency measurements.
The video below shows the full 19 minutes run.
The circuit runs for approximately half an hour in total, because it carries on oscillating long after the light extinguishes.
When down to the dregs of remaining capacitor charge and the light has gone out, the frequency bobbles around 1-2kHz and rapidly fluctuates, as though the coil is trying to regain the balance.
Here is the frequency testing video of this coil:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK5LhMD-tsk
Excellent again, Slider! 19 minutes is great progress...
As I'm still with family away from my home (Mo) but should be back end-of-the week. Looking forward to having fun with this circuit and coil design also;.... Slider has made some great suggestions on this thread.
Hi Slider
Fantastic, thanks for sharing your work O0
Cheers
Peter
Thanks chaps :)
A higher quality version of the 19 minute run will be within a video now being publicly uploaded. It has an intro piece at the front, to explain the video. Hopefully it spurs others on with their building of such circuits.
3hrs to upload ???
It may generate a little traffic to your forum here Peter too lol, having added this thread to the video description.
Oh, unless Steve you'd rather not have all and sundry viewing your area of the forum ?
I'm sure this can go a lot further for research. The 5% duty cycle square wave and 1V SG runnings being pointers to something extra.
Am building a replication of this circuit now...the other being sent on its travels to Steve after the weekend.
Thanks so much again, Slider! we encourage each other and help each other O0
I'm looking forward to that vid - and hope that more people come to this thread and are encouraged thereby.
Hi Mark
What value are the cap's your using to run the system?
I have been running a simple throw together circuit,with nothing more than an air core coil(one's used in the cool joule setup's).I can achieve a oscillation run time of a hour,with the LED lit for around 32 minute's,on nothing more than 1x 4700uf cap and 1x 470uf cap to capture the return(looped)energy. Start voltage at about 4.8 volt's. The SG is triggering the transistor,but i have 42k ohm of resistance between the SG and base,to eliminate any power being contrubuted by the SC. Base voltage from SG is only 1.5 volts anyway,so wouldnt add anything to the 4.8 volt run voltage. The video is uploading now-has about an hour to go(very slow today). Will post it here as soon as it's done.
P.S-you realy need to get one of these electronic lab kit's-so easy to build circuits with this kit.
Sounds great Slider, it's a good way to archive work for future research as well, you know i can set you up a bench as well if you wanted one. O0
Cheers
Peter
Here is my first test setup.
Next will be to try a coil with a core,and see how we go with that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wSPZxQXYR4
Yes but Mr. Tinman, your coils make it rain in Australia !
That's a very different circuit...looks superb for forwarding O0
And, I would really want to put a piano type keyboard in front of all that analogue componentry, just looks like a vintage 1970's synth. Something like this OSC Oscar: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/OSC_OSCar.jpg
Lasersaber used a 10,000uF. Mine have been 3x 3300uF. His run voltage was I think 9V, mine has been 3.6V.
Your SG throughput does need checking though, because the Lasersaber circuit will fire up with a 1.042V SG output. Change the DC to square wave and that same voltage brightens the load by a large margin. 5% duty cycle is as effective as 50% too.
Looking forward to your progress and i'm glad you are doing this !
@Peter - will think about the bench, cheers. A lot depends on a possible work move to Texas, but I won't be stopping working with this team here.
Hi Slider
The SG output is 1.5 volt's @ a 5% duty cycle. It will run the circuit at .8 volt's output.It's 3 volt's p to p,but with a 1.5 volt offset. At 50% duty cycle,the cap drain's in around 1 1/2 minute's,and LED will not light.
It's just the cool joule circuit,but using the sg insted of the second coil to fire the transistor.But insted of going from the LED to the second battery,we go straight back to the run battery(cap in this case).
Anyway,seems we have some catching up to do lol.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B79UJGoNJE
No Problem Slider, good luck with the move O0
LaserSaber is excited in this latest video (this morning, Mother's Day in the US) and for good reason:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B79UJGoNJE&feature=em-uploademail
Note that it runs long, and operates just fine inside an unplugged microwave oven (as a Faraday cage).
I consider that both LS and Slider have made breakthroughs this week, using similar xformers. Slider's SG demonstrations are significant, IMO.
Kudos to both!
It is critically important to REPLICATE the results, and if possible, to SCALE UP.
Thanks Steve, a lot of learning and a lot of fun with discoveries.
Something mixing with Brad's ideas is going to trip this stuff into a wider appeal I hope !
Speaking of SG's, here's an anomaly....
Short video, 1min 37sec, which shows something bizarre with the duty cycle output.
I'd like to know what is going on ?!
The circuit is an SJR Looper, converted back over from my version of the circuit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRJ2THmVC9c
Right - I appreciate Brad's input also. "many hands make "LIGHT" work" :)
That is a puzzle on your vid, Slider -- lighting brightly with 0% duty cycle. ???
Ongoing discussion at OU, too. Xee2 writes of a Joule Thief that he has run for 1.5 hours!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T9HQkDnIuU
Indeed and well worth pointing out Steve - because of Xee2's video upload date of June 28th 2011.
Lidmotor's 'Penny' circuit, Lasersabers micro joule ringer, my garden lights and probably many others are variants of the same thing. A highly efficient simple circuit that dates back to the 1960's and, if configured correctly, has its own anomalies.
However, with 2meg of resistance and a 0.1uF cap, that run time is as a flashing LED output, not continuous. Moving to a 0.01uF or 0.001uF, or decreasing the resistance to around 700 ohms and less will bring it to being a steady light to the eyes.
I discovered it with the 'Penny' and had a discussion with Lidmotor about the seeming negative uA on occasions, displayed on digital multimeters. It's likely an error of the meters, but shows how little juice that simple circuit style needs.
As an example, my 'Nephilim Penny' with 2 large pancake coils, has been running 24/7 since November 2011 on the same tub of water, same copper positive electrode and with just 3 replacements of the negative galvanized steel electrode.
Nephilim Penny responds to local storms, altering its flash rate. These circuits also will run in sync with another readily..the strongest of a pair dictating the run frequency of the other. I have 2x Eprom powered oscillators on our kitchen window that do that (solar energy comes in through the Eprom chip window). 1 flashes a blue LED and is a little stronger than the one that flashes the white. Bring their coils about an inch from each other and both flash at the blue ones rate.
If you replace Xee2's 10,000uF cap with 100uF, you'll strike that LED up into a flashing mode of about 2 or 3Hz just by holding a small piece of copper and galv steel in your hand.
Funnily enough, that's what I tried on the SJR Looper this afternoon. It used 2mA to light the night light with the extra circuit, 1mA without. So, it ended up lossy so far. It didn't work with just hand held electrodes, but would have made quite the party trick if it had :)
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2014.05.12, 01:38:48
Ongoing discussion at OU, too. Xee2 writes of a Joule Thief that he has run for 1.5 hours!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T9HQkDnIuU
The competition has begun in earnest!
Mark & Steve.
I found the video i was talking about,and i had forgotten actually how many odd thing's i had found with it.There was actually more to it than just an open coil driving the base. Check out the voltages i was getting from the AV plug's i had on all the terminal's. I will also find the first video on it,in the hope it will show how i had it all set up.
Please excuse me and my explination's,as i was very green back then lol-and to most,still am when it come's to electronic's.
I think i may go back and revisit this setup,and maybe try the copper rap on this one first,and let Mark continue with the pot core setup. This way we could compair setup's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-LAc52pOZ0
Peanut butter meant the 50/60Hz over the top of the DC output ? That fella had a lot of info and it's a shame he disappeared so quickly after showing his findings.
Your CRT neck ferrites at the end bring in the paper gapped core thoughts. Was it the same guys, Wesley and crew who did that ? What happens if we put paper between the core parts of the SJR Looper ferrite pieces ?
The HV reminds of this finding with a similar Joule Ringer circuit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zreTGaYYq5c
A wireless energy field output that we could pickup and send back around.
Solar garden lights do well with 3 LED's rather than 1. Amp draw goes down and the light from each is only slightly less than with just 1.
LaserSaber has now published his circuit from the Mother's Day device -- very simple: http://laserhacker.com/?p=406
Looks like he is using just two of the three coils...
Evidently he used the same coil as before, the coil described here http://laserhacker.com/?p=401
With the way he usually builds his SJR's, that means the left side coil will be the lower gauge, the right side a higher gauge.
The Green wire left side (Primary), Red wire right side (Secondary).
In fact though, join the top two points of the coil and make the coil a bifilar pancake and it's my SWES wireless system :)
OUBrads showed something similar to LS's yesterday, albeit connected to the AA battery all the time.
His use of a similar coil to those found in flash cameras is the interesting part.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wetNNe5XAyw
Brad mentioned that he found a regular common as muck 2N3904 to be best performing. It's not such a lowly part though, because along with the 2N4401 and 2N2222A is apparently a Negistor transistor. An explanation of that conclusion has always been elusive...anyone know the reasons ?
I'm going to build up an LS version, then see if I have one of those flash transformers and also try a 4kV trigger coil.
Quote from: Slider2732 on 2014.05.13, 18:05:21
With the way he usually builds his SJR's, that means the left side coil will be the lower gauge, the right side a higher gauge.
The Green wire left side (Primary), Red wire right side (Secondary).
In fact though, join the top two points of the coil and make the coil a bifilar pancake and it's my SWES wireless system :)
OUBrads showed something similar to LS's yesterday, albeit connected to the AA battery all the time.
His use of a similar coil to those found in flash cameras is the interesting part.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wetNNe5XAyw
Brad mentioned that he found a regular common as muck 2N3904 to be best performing. It's not such a lowly part though, because along with the 2N4401 and 2N2222A is apparently a Negistor transistor. An explanation of that conclusion has always been elusive...anyone know the reasons ?
I'm going to build up an LS version, then see if I have one of those flash transformers and also try a 4kV trigger coil.
Hi Slider,
could it be that the 2n2222 was used in severall "negistor" experiments like the one i did here:
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2.msg36020#msg36020
Regards Itsu
Yes and thank you Itsu
Don Smith, JL Naudin, there must be something to it :)
Dr. Stiffler also used to make use of the no Base connection with SEC circuits.
There is also that strange flasher on 12V with small signal transistors, where the Base isn't connected and the breakdown forces oscillation.
Similar to this, yet I know i've seen even simpler:
http://josephinnovations.blogspot.com/2013/04/damn-simple-led-flasher-circuit.html
Leo Esaki gained the Nobel Prize for his 1958 research into electron tunneling, which the circuit displays:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Esaki
A point to the wonderings is that could we trigger the Base of a 2N2222A/3904/4401 by an induction pickup off the top of a transformer ? The frequency could then be a push/pull and not strictly forced by the transistor frequency. Load dynamics changing through the run time may be influenced by the amount of wireless energy being picked up.
It brings in TinMan's circuit shown earlier, LS's new one and a point in the circuit that is not hard wired, so semi open for thoughts of looping.
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2014.05.13, 06:18:15
LaserSaber has now published his circuit from the Mother's Day device -- very simple: http://laserhacker.com/?p=406
Looks like he is using just two of the three coils...
Evidently he used the same coil as before, the coil described here http://laserhacker.com/?p=401
As i had allmost all components available, even an old germanium transistor AC127 a decided to build this ringer.
After some fiddling it started to work like seen in laser sabers video above.
Especially the screenshot of his scope was something i wanted to replicate, and i found i needed to swap the leds over
to get this specific signal, so anodes at the top, cathodes to the base (it works both sides by the way).
See screenshot of this signal and the voltage on the caps (blue trace).
Coil is constructed like Laser sable is showing, pot core (4.7cm) with first 1 layer copper tape with gap (2mm)
Then 1 coil single layer 0.3mm (AWG28) is about 54 turns CW.
Then 1 coil also 0.3mm (AWG28) about 300 turns CCW.
Then 1 layer copper tape again with gap (2mm).
Coil 1 = 10mH
Coil 2 = 335mH
Coil 2 is connected to the leds
No gap in the potcore, tightend together with a bold/nut.
This inductance and more important the interwinding capacitance seems to be to low, so best is to follow Laser Sabers instructions which
say AWG 20, first coil 2 layers, then second coil fill up the rest of the former (600?? turns).
Or add a cap from top of leds (anodes in my case) to ground.
I was trying to do some input power (input current/voltage) measurements, but signals are very small.
Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-_aWDt79fw&feature=youtu.be
Regards Itsu
Enjoyable replication to study, especially as you gained a similar trace and have a work around for the lower capacitance problem.
Do you think it's the same 3 negative ninnies who go around thumbing down everyones videos on this subject ?
If they'd just have the courage to post why they have such a dislike for us actual experimenters wishing to gain understandings then it would help us all out !
I had an idea for these circuits and the long videos.
Would it be an idea to use another low power device for the output, such as a digital watch ?
If a watch was running it would be known how long the circuit had been going. For those negative ninnies again it could be put in a clear box in the back yard and shown sealed.
1000uF at 1.5V runs one for approx 10 minutes before the screen begins to fade. If we found that the watch ran for an hour, it would show clear progress.
Bonus to the whole thing is that the same battery that would be taken out of the watch to solder to the terminals, is the same one that could be used to start up the system !
The one in this pic is from a dollar store. Flip the back off, take the circuit and battery out, solder to the terminals and off we go.
Quote from: Slider2732 on 2014.05.14, 02:34:10
Do you think it's the same 3 negative ninnies who go around thumbing down everyones videos on this subject ?
If they'd just have the courage to post why they have such a dislike for us actual experimenters wishing to gain understandings then it would help us all out !
As I'm sure you consider me as one of the three negative ninnies, I would like to explain that I have no problem with both yours and Lasersaber's videos showing long run times for a couple of LED's. O0 I say this because I have seen this effect myself and do not consider it unusual, given that LED's can be lit from extremely low current pulses. However, I'm of the opinion that Akula is almost certainly faking his self-running 30W LED job and certainly his garden contraption. So, no need for you to go to the trouble in boxing up your device and doing a garden video to convince me that its a genuine long runner.
Hoppy
Prior to the invention of the LED, street construction safety flasher lights used neon lamps which can be lit on microamps. These things ran for years on a dry cell battery and didn't even require an on / off switch.
With the advent of super high brightness LED's that can be lit on microwatts, people are fooling themselves if they think there is anything special about Lasersaber circuits. They are just oscillators that pulse leds with microwatts. Why is there no attempt to add a current shunt resistor and make meaningful measurements? Or take a real close look at the brightness vs. power input curve of the new LED's.
Notice how no one is doing a real scientific energy analysis of charge in Joules on the capacitor vs. charge dissipated per pulse into the LED's.
All the hoopla about run time is meaningless unless you know what the initial charge and dissipation per cycle is.
Now if it ran forever, that would be a different story, but it doesn't. Why does Lasersaber not scale his units up to deliver a few watts?
In the free energy circus, come see the bearded lady in the tent next door.
Still it's all fun to play with, but no serious science here.
@Hoppy - Thank you for your post.
A question - how is it known that a device will not run as presented in a video, unless interested experimenters show their own findings ?
To visibly dismiss the attempts of others by association, can only deliver a passive aggressive stance. By being thumbed down by association, the video is not being appraised for the uploaders camera work, presenting style or content.
And that is the problem - people wish to discover whether circuits work as demonstrated by another and will wish to be socially inclusive while they do so.
@ION - Fascinating to hear of the safety flashers. I know that as a kid in the 1970's (in the UK) they used 6V filament bulbs and a large 6V battery...mainly because a cousin of mine rode down a street once on his bike and put 2 of them in a plastic bag, without even slowing down :o there he was, riding off mid evening through traffic, with yellow flashes sparkling over the handlebars !
In my opinion, Lasersaber's Stubblefield magnetics coil and the HV output SJR are excellent learning circuits. Bringing century old experimenters methods back to the fore for another look. His presentations are crisp and clear, he articulates well and is a true proponent of exploring the practicalities of low energy devices in a wasteful world. He may make errors, but presents what he knows and publishes everything.
Here's a very relevant case in point regarding LED run times.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5JKua41FEI
The white LED would run for an hour, from a 2200uF capacitor.
Explanations of dielectric absorption and LED resistance being the factors were delivered kindly, by a couple of people.
The video remains posted, albeit nowadays with 'Solved' in the title, for others who may find themselves with a similar situation.
Good points.
ION: "Now if it ran forever, that would be a different story..." right -- and THAT (I understand) is the goal that LS and others have in mind.
Quote from: Slider2732 on 2014.05.14, 17:27:41
@Hoppy - Thank you for your post.
A question - how is it known that a device will not run as presented in a video, unless interested experimenters show their own findings ?
To visibly dismiss the attempts of others by association, can only deliver a passive aggressive stance. By being thumbed down by association, the video is not being appraised for the uploaders camera work, presenting style or content.
And that is the problem - people wish to discover whether circuits work as demonstrated by another and will wish to be socially inclusive while they do so.
I'm only dismissing Akula's self running claims in this thread, as I detect visible evidence that his garden video is faked and because of this I strongly suspect that his LED devices are faked. As previously stated, I am not thumbing down yours or Lasersaber's presentations. I'm all for replication attempts and social interaction whist doing so and in both yours and Lasersaber's presentations, it has been possible for others, including myself, to replicate the effects demonstrated because sufficient detail has been presented. In contrast, Akula's presentations lack good quality detail for replication and worse, the information that is presented is confusing in respect of never knowing which of the many schematics presented applies to any particular device! Presentations like this do not deserve to be taken seriously and certainly deserve criticism in my opinion. I hope I have answered your question adequately.
Hoppy
I guess I'm one of those those ninnies, but you see, I was building flasher circuits in the early 50's and LED flashers in the late 60's.
Somewhere in my library I have a thick compendium of Neon, incandescent and LED pulser circuits collected over 50 years with hundreds of designs.
I don't really see anything novel going on except a lot of people getting very excited that are way down the learning curve of how to engineer a pwm led pulser and what goes with good engineering is the ability to make meaningful power measurements.
This includes quantitative measurements of light power output which is rarely mentioned.
My watch dissipates a few microwatts with each tick as does my battery operated clock on the wall, is anyone getting excited about that?
I encourage all the novice experimentation, I did it as a kid, and still do it. I am happy there are folks doing this. Just saying that if you want to get up the learning curve real fast its good to open a book and really try to understand what is happening with your circuits, scope waveforms, circuit changes and why it is happening.
Devoid of this, its all cut and try, stumble around.
But it's all good, no rain on anyone's parade, that's how some of us learn.
Right.
OK, another vid today from LS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EkXNRWAi1Y&feature=em-uploademail
In my opinion, we should be focusing heavily on Spherics' original tetrahedral design. It doesn't have to be pulsed much faster than a few kHz if you put an electromagnet around the whole assembly. This puts it in the reach of everyone. A serious alternative energy tech puts out serious amounts of power. Build it, you won't be disappointed!
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2014.05.14, 22:30:35
Right.
OK, another vid today from LS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EkXNRWAi1Y&feature=em-uploademail
If any one is interested I can explain LS's latest video and why nothing special is happening, although it looks
to the eye like there is a improvement.
I'm sure Hoppy and a few others can also explain it.
Quote from: ION on 2014.05.15, 01:23:11
If any one is interested I can explain LS's latest video and why nothing special is happening, although it looks to the eye like there is a improvement.
I'm sure Hoppy and a few others can also explain it.
A couple of thing's
1-The sjr LED's are flashing,although we cant see that.This mean's they are not alway's drawing power like the DC one's.
2-He is also burning up power within the resistor.
@Hoppy - Yes and thank you for the explanation O0
@ION - A negative ninnie would be someone who attacks passively aggressively, with no need felt to explain their stance. I've borrowed it as a paraphrase from Stanton Friedman.
Do you have an LED circuit that would raise the bar here ? Something we might in fact assist LS with, by replicating ?
It would cut the stumble, which is a very good point if we can build on and with that library :)
Apart from the pulsing aspect of the SJL, Lasersaber makes a fundamental error in assuming the current measurement for the high frequency / pulsating LED's is the same as for the LED's driven by continuous current, as measured by an analogue meter of this moving coil type, which is not designed to take AC / pulsating DC current measurements.
Hoppy
slider said:
QuoteDo you have an LED circuit that would raise the bar here ? Something we might in fact assist LS with, by replicating ?
It would cut the stumble, which is a very good point if we can build on and with that library.
Unfortunately there is no bar or standard goal except perhaps run time. Power output of the lights is not "standardized" or even measured as a goal.
Is the LED visible in a darkened room? in normal light? in outdoor sunlight? under a microscope? Is there a standard LED to be used by participants?
Nor is voltage and current input measured. If you are only looking at uA draw it is only a part the story. P=ExI
For a contest or to see if one is really making progress, it is necessary to nail down some of the parameters
e.g most optical power delivered for one hour by XXX type battery or xxx uf capacitor. Besides accurate measurement, you need to take lab notes to see if you are really making an improvement.
Be it a soap box or formula race, certain constraints are needed to be spelled out. If there are no constraints or no goals, then it is easy.
So I will ask slider and all few questions for starters. Right now the goal is nebulous. Define
exactly the goal.
Which of these would be a viable constraint or goal:
Power input
Run time
Amount of optical power delivered (How is the output measured eye or sensitive light meter, peak or average power?)
Number of active components allowed
Number of passive components allowed
Size of the assembly*
Weight of the assembly*
*(including power source)
It is well known in the art that pulsing an LED can be a large advantage in
apparent light output to the eye over steady DC current so LS's latest video and test is not a revelation.
That is one of the reasons multiplexed LED displays have been popular for the last 45 years or so.
Well reading from post 39 onward's,my first thought was-here we go again,the big gun's telling the small fries that there is nothing special with what were doing,but have no input as to how we could make thing's better. We see this all the time,on all of the forum's-EF more than most. But reading ION's last post,he dose have a good point. What exactly are we trying to achieve?
Quote ION: people are fooling themselves if they think there is anything special about Lasersaber circuits.
Looking back on many of my experiments,he is right-there is nothing out of the ordinary happening with LS JT circuit's.
Slider-look back at the work you done on the cool joule setup,and the variation's you made on it.I think that was right up there(if not better)than any of LS SJR circuit's.
Then there is my window motor i made ,with mag lev bearing's-have a look at how efficient that was-and this is spinning a good sized rotor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67R5ksfFF14
Quote from: TinMan on 2014.05.16, 08:45:08
Well reading from post 39 onward's,my first thought was-here we go again,the big gun's telling the small fries that there is nothing special with what were doing,but have no input as to how we could make thing's better.
That's a bit harsh on the ninnies IMO. :'( The big message to the small fry is make sure the measurements are fit for purpose before being swallowed by the sharks. In this respect much has been said on the subject and practical advice given by the ninnies. Remember the pre-occupation on the FE fora is debating whether this or that device being claimed as self-running, is in fact self-running. To do this we all need good quality documentation and measurement data for replication, which is very rarely available.
Hoppy
Quote from: Hoppy on 2014.05.16, 10:26:47
That's a bit harsh on the ninnies IMO. :'( The big message to the small fry is make sure the measurements are fit for purpose before being swallowed by the sharks. In this respect much has been said on the subject and practical advice given by the ninnies. Remember the pre-occupation on the FE fora is debating whether this or that device being claimed as self-running, is in fact self-running. To do this we all need good quality documentation and measurement data for replication, which is very rarely available.
Hoppy
Such a small statement to pull from a much larger post Hoppy-makes me look bad lol.
I believe there is a way to make a self running device,but the materials to do this,i just dont have. But will be getting in touch with slider-maybe he can get the required materials together.
Quote from: TinMan on 2014.05.16, 10:44:15
Such a small statement to pull from a much larger post Hoppy-makes me look bad lol.
I believe there is a way to make a self running device,but the materials to do this,i just dont have. But will be getting in touch with slider-maybe he can get the required materials together.
Have you thought about scaling-up your Window Motor and comparing efficiency with a conventional PM motor? I'm quite impressed with your WM demo. Would you share the circuitry with others on this forum?
Hoppy
Quote from: Hoppy on 2014.05.16, 10:58:43
Have you thought about scaling-up your Window Motor and comparing efficiency with a conventional PM motor? I'm quite impressed with your WM demo. Would you share the circuitry with others on this forum?
Hoppy
I would be happy to share the circuit Hoppy. But i must warn you,this circuit caused quite a bit of trouble over at TEEP(when i was a member there).How ever,this trouble led to a new forum being built by myself and a man called timber jack.That forum ofcourse is the IAEC.The circuit is on that forum,but at the moment,all forumco forum's seem to be down???. I will dig it up for you as soon as i can. But i would like you to watch the following video,and this may explain as to why i am a little critical of those that think they are above and beyond other experimenters.I was one of the !small fry!,that loved trying all sorts of different combinations of circuit's. the one the window motor is running,was by far the best one i came up with. But it seem'd that one of the moderator's of TEEP decided that my circuit was dangerous,and could explode at any time.This resulted in him stopping all my post-even though i had shown a video of the circuit running quite fine.All other member that came to my aid,and said the circuit was quite safe,were banned for 3 day's.
Anyway-this is the result from one of those member's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70T7NrYXM_4
@Tin Man,
Unfortunately, I get an error on the link you gave.
Hoppy
I've been thinking of writing up a primer on LED pulser circuits. This would include:
Capacitor discharge type
Inductive discharge type
Brute force from power source type,
It would include techniques for building regenerative switches, simple 2 transistor multivibrators SCR, PUT, unijunction, optimizing flyback converters, blocking oscillators (aka Joule Thief and many other methods, including a circuit description what is actually occuring in Lasersabers latest offering.
I talked about goals and constraints because I've worked as a designer in industry where the circuits I came up with were produced by the tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands. some went into millions of units sold.
When doing this the engineer must have a target goal for the end product, a set of specifications that he must shoot for, then explore every means to build the circuit.
In the final analysis he should use thrift in the design such that unnecessarily expensive or material wasting approaches are not used, yet the circuit must be robust and deliver uniform performance over a wide range of tolerances stack up in the components, temperature, humidity etc.
Where cost is no object, and these other factors are not considered, such as if you are producing a one- off for your own use with exotic or costly materials, then we are talking a whole new ball game.
But again I ask what is the goal? Any contest must have specific rules spelled out clearly.
Who can state the contest rules for the LED pulser?
Quote from: Hoppy on 2014.05.16, 11:49:32
@Tin Man,
Unfortunately, I get an error on the link you gave.
Hoppy
I just tried it Hoppy,and seems to work fine for me ???.
Quote from: TinMan on 2014.05.16, 11:57:28
I just tried it Hoppy,and seems to work fine for me ???.
OK, got it now, thanks.
Quote from: ION on 2014.05.16, 11:50:49
I've been thinking of writing up a primer on LED pulser circuits. This would include:
Capacitor discharge type
Inductive discharge type
Brute force from power source type,
It would include techniques for building regenerative switches, simple 2 transistor multivibrators SCR, PUT, unijunction, optimizing flyback converters, blocking oscillators (aka Joule Thief and many other methods, including a circuit description what is actually occuring in Lasersabers latest offering.
I talked about goals and constraints because I've worked as a designer in industry where the circuits I came up with were produced by the tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands. some went into millions of units sold.
When doing this the engineer must have a target goal for the end product, a set of specifications that he must shoot for, then explore every means to build the circuit.
In the final analysis he should use thrift in the design such that unnecessarily expensive or material wasting approaches are not used, yet the circuit must be robust and deliver uniform performance over a wide range of tolerances stack up in the components, temperature, humidity etc.
Where cost is no object, and these other factors are not considered, such as if you are producing a one- off for your own use with exotic or costly materials, then we are talking a whole new ball game.
But again I ask what is the goal? Any contest must have specific rules spelled out clearly.
Who can state the contest rules for the LED pulser?
I have always found that a friendly contest brings out the best in design's-like the pulse motor build off's myself and Russ have held.\
Maybe we pick a V/input amount,and then using one of the small solar garden light led's and solar pannel,we make a light box,and send the power from the solar pannel to a cap with a resistor(of say 100 ohms) across it,and see who can get the lowest P/in for the highest P/out. But as this is Sliders thread,maybe he could give the specific's of the test setup.
LaserSaber modifies circuit, adds diodes, reaches a 5-hr run on 3300 uF cap.
http://www.youtube.com/attribution_link?a=BnUoHNCcpdU&u=/watch%3Fv%3DFOUrRXINDqY%26feature%3Dem-uploademail
New circuit given (see link with vid).
He's talking about a flashlight device at this point.
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2014.05.16, 13:41:44
LaserSaber modifies circuit, adds diodes, reaches a 5-hr run on 3300 uF cap.
http://www.youtube.com/attribution_link?a=BnUoHNCcpdU&u=/watch%3Fv%3DFOUrRXINDqY%26feature%3Dem-uploademail
New circuit given (see link with vid).
He's talking about a flashlight device at this point.
Ah come on-are you kidding me???. OK-this is getting built tomorrow,and i do have the smaller pot core's he speak's of.
Yes, Five HOURS is pretty cool... Looking forward to your build, Tinman.
I'm jumping in as soon as I get back to my electronics bench (this weekend or Monday. visiting family today in Colo )
diagram shown below. Note that the direction of the LEDs "may need to be flipped" Interesting... So which way works the best?
Guess we'll find out.
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2014.05.16, 15:33:00
Yes, Five HOURS is pretty cool... Looking forward to your build, Tinman.
I'm jumping in as soon as I get back to my electronics bench (this weekend or Monday. visiting family today in Colo )
diagram shown below. Note that the direction of the LEDs "may need to be flipped" Interesting... So which way works the best?
Guess we'll find out.
[/quote:
I would say the LED's would have to be fliped depending on winding direction to battery polarity.Once up and running,i think i would like to try something a bit different-as pictured below.
That really is cool O0
I will have to try this, hopefully this weekend
regards
Mike 8)
My approach to building an efficient and practical low current LED torch would be to first ascertain its best frequency response using a FSG. In the case of my 3W LED chips, best response is when square wave driven at around 1.4Mhz. I would then decide on the most efficient driver, which may not necessarily be a coil based oscillator. This oscillator would be capable of frequency adjustment and low frequency modulation of the optimum frequency for lowest current working v acceptable light level.
Hoppy
It looks like the purpose to these experiments is becoming defined, as a flashlight.
I agree about that question...let's have a practical purpose to aim at.
Or, when it doesn't run forever in a microwave, what can we do with it ? lol
In the experiments with the earlier similar circuit, Itsu mentioned the use of a cap across 2 points to fire it up reliably. If using a pot core with a bolt, I found that connecting a wire between the *correction at 3.08pm* positive side of the LED and bolt also fired it up. Just another method if folks encounter a dead circuit. Perhaps a Piezo BBQ lighter would work, as shown by JonnyDavro years ago for coils.
Those SMD ceramics are very appealing. For recycling from say old laptop boards, press the soldering iron against 1 end and lift to 45 degrees, then gently do the same on the other side...or then take a flashlight and spend 20 minutes hunting around on the floor ;D
MPSA18 as a choice is interesting - http://www.redrok.com/NPN_MPSA18_45V_100mA_0.625W_Hfe400_TO-92.pdf
Darlington level current gain with tiny 50nA Collector cut off.
Quote from: TinMan on 2014.05.16, 11:41:20
I would be happy to share the circuit Hoppy. But i must warn you,this circuit caused quite a bit of trouble over at TEEP(when i was a member there).How ever,this trouble led to a new forum being built by myself and a man called timber jack.That forum ofcourse is the IAEC.The circuit is on that forum,but at the moment,all forumco forum's seem to be down???. I will dig it up for you as soon as i can.
Hi,
Would it be interesting to see what you did out of B-e-d-i-n-i stuff and others.
We are all in same jungle running on different circles around same stones.... ;)
P.S> For some reason B-e-d-i-n-i (######) got filtered in forum. Peterae, can you check if profanity filter works correctly?
@T-1000 Yeah, that happened a while back. As I understand it, Mr. Berdini apparently found something amiss with how his work was being discussed on this forum and that resulted in his name being a word for the profanity list !
Regarding the latest LS circuit:
The Lasersaber circuit is unique in that it uses the small interwinding capacitance of the first and second windings to couple the switch on / switch off current to the base of the transistor allowing for a fast charge / discharge of base current, hence efficient switching of the transistor. This is less dissipative and provides stiffer peak current base drive than most JT circuits which use just a resistor. The interwinding capacitance also effectively limits "on time" by discharging, thus preventing saturation, hence the high switching efficiency.
The XEE2 circuit adds a small capacitor across the bias resistor to effect fast switching. This is commonly called a speedup network in the art. There are even better ways to effect base drive, depends on the goal, which is never carefully or clearly defined.
The waveform is not unique, I can get the same waveform and duty cycle with a totally different circuit and with just one winding.
If you want to increase inter winding capacitance and get more of a kick into the base of the transistor, you could lightly twist the two wires and wind them as a pair instead of separate layers.
What LS circuit does is provide a very sharp pulse with very low duty cycle, hence the long run time. LED's put out a lot of light with very short high current pulses, but it also shortens their life if you exceed the peak current rating.
The pot core and circuit is not the only way to get this sharp pulse, there are numerous methods.
Quote from: ION on 2014.05.16, 22:05:36
Regarding the latest LS circuit:
The Lasersaber circuit is unique in that it uses the small interwinding capacitance of the first and second windings to couple the switch on / switch off current to the base of the transistor allowing for a fast charge / discharge of base current, hence efficient switching of the transistor. This is less dissipative and provides stiffer peak current base drive than most JT circuits which use just a resistor. The interwinding capacitance also effectively limits "on time" by discharging, thus preventing saturation, hence the high switching efficiency.
Well not unique,as i posted in reply 31 on this thread.This is one of his earlier versions that i found ran in the same way-quite by mistake. I knocked the emitter wire of the globe by mistake,only to find it kept running.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-LAc52pOZ0
PWM LED driver buck: http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=14&ved=0CJYBEBYwDQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.servoflo.com%2Fproduct-guide-downloads%2Fled-driver-download%2Fdownload%2F394%2F845%2F17.html&ei=vy93U6brH4XkOuXWgMgJ&usg=AFQjCNHqJvxZo2zv1TiEsHR8mGJKvhK5XA&bvm=bv.66917471,d.ZWU.
Boost: http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1789735.pdf (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1789735.pdf)
Hoppy
I'm too old school (and cheap) to buy expensive chips to light LED's when I can do a good job with a two transistor multivibrator circuit, although those parts are nice all in one solutions and very efficient. I've got tens of thousands of transistors in stock.
Also, I'm not really interested in entering any contest where the light output is so dim as to be unusable just to get the extended run time as the goal. In the end, you've got to expend some power if you want a usable flashlight, and it all boils down to the efficiency of the LED's and the driving circuit. I haven't seen any magic here.
I also would encourage folks to read the data sheets of LED's carefully such that they limit peak currents and not prematurely degrade the LED's light output.
Tinman: I was just giving LS a small kudo. The use of interwinding capacitance to help along a blocking oscillator is certainly not new.
Ok,here is my first go at the SJR looper using the smaller core's.Im not using the specified diode's or transistor,but it's in the low uA draw,and work's. Not sure the 3 diode's between the base and collector are needed,but LED direction is very important. But shortly after the video,while trying different diode's,i dropped the pot on the concrete,and it broke into 4 pieces-good thing i have another.
But once again,i got side tracked after finding my MOT coil i used on my window motor. The video you will see next here (from me) ,will open some eye's i think.
Chet-it started raining as soon as i cranked up the camera-what have you done to me lol.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLGWVaBvncg
Well after a couple of hour's and one broken pot core later,i put the SJR looper aside,and tried my luck at a modified cool joule setup.Next is to build a light box,and run some test on light output power between the MEG_GA JOULE,and straight DC of the same P/in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frLw8lA6lxM
This picture was taken at 1h 45m run time.As you can see,the 9 LED's are still clearly lit. What i would like to know is-is there any way that the 50 HTz main's could be feeding in power to the system without the scope seeing it? I did turn of the power to the work shop from the isolation switch in the meter box for about 10 minute's,and seen no change in voltage drop rate in the cap. But i would like to eliminate the possibility completely. Do i just do an L.S ,and put it in the microwave oven?.
O0
The light output is very nice indeed.
So it's a Cool Joule standard circuit, but joined windings and both batteries become the cap ?
I'm going to go the other way for coil size and use 2x dancing flower tiny ones. They worked great on your original circuit.
Chuck it in the microwave outside at dusk or with cardboard or something over the oven so the light can be seen, that will remove thoughts ?
I know you used to have half a forest at the other place, so maybe there's an area well away from wiring.
TinMan
Quote
Chet-it started raining as soon as i cranked up the camera-what have you done to me lol.
--------------------------------------
now thats Funny............
Told you It Should be " Rain Man " not TinMan...........
those who may not have followed some of TinMan's more Aggressive and exotic experiments [lightning in a bottle and others ]
More times than not it would start to rain as soon as he fired up the Device under test [DUT]
actually I do believe it is no coincidence ...............
thx
Chet
Quote from: TinMan on 2014.05.17, 16:43:12
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frLw8lA6lxM
;)
@Chet - Post #21 of this very thread ;)
Reputation, legend, quirk or a sign of OU who knows lol
@ Slider
It would seem that there is a magnetic attraction to those 3 down thumber's to pulse lighting circuit's-as they now have joined my video's. I guess those that cant do-dont like.
Although i use a much larger cap than that of L.S setup,and my run time is much shorter,i get a much better light output-but looks can be deceiving.Taking the setup out side in the dark to use it as a torch,i cant see sh-t with it. So no good as a torch yet. you can read a book under the light,but with a bit of eye strain to go with it. So although it looks bright when looking straight into it,and it shine's nice on the work bench,i wouldnt yet really call it usable light.
Now the strange thing to me is,there is no ringing across the coil-the wave is nice and square.I would have thought there would be ringing,as the LED is directly across the run coil,which would normally cause a feedback loop into the run coil when coupled to the trigger coil like it is.
Below is the simple schematic for the circuit. May try a pot on the base to see if we can tune it a bit better.
Quote from: Slider2732 on 2014.05.17, 19:05:31
@Chet - Post #21 of this very thread ;)
Reputation, legend, quirk or a sign of OU who knows lol
Reputation-dont want one.
Legend-well hopefully to my children,when im gone.
Quirk-been many of them in my time.
OU-one can only wish.
Nothing more than shear coincidence,as most of my time in the work shop is when it's to crappy out side to work.
@TinMan - Ha fair enough...it is a seemingly odd phenomenon to us viewers though. Bit of fun and mild ribbing :)
Thanks for the schematic.
I put together one of the Cool Joule circuits from last year. 2x 'dancing flower' coils, C1815 GR transistor. Removed the charging battery and used a 2200uF cap to run it. It did 'ring' along for 2 min 30 sec, but needs a lot of changes. It does the LS brightening by touching the Base with a finger, increasing run time of visible light and brightness with how much pressure is applied.
Also found one of those 9 LED lights and might similarly hacksaw it. Being as solar garden lights run better on 3 LED's than 1 (for current draw) then it may be beneficial to run with whatever is the most efficient number of parallel LED's.
I'll replace the 1N4004 with a 1N914A, but also look at maybe a germanium bridge rectifier to make use of that original 2nd battery placement and send it back into the run cap.
(btw, bit of a laugh. I originally wrote 'germanium bride rectifier' by mistake.
"Listen honey, i'm just not happy with how you are after we got married".
That's maybe why some guys buy their ladies flowers - germaniums = geraniums
Give her flowers as a geranium bride rectifier !)
Quote from: Slider2732 on 2014.05.18, 03:28:51
@TinMan - Ha fair enough...it is a seemingly odd phenomenon to us viewers though. Bit of fun and mild ribbing :)
Thanks for the schematic.
I put together one of the Cool Joule circuits from last year. 2x 'dancing flower' coils, C1815 GR transistor. Removed the charging battery and used a 2200uF cap to run it. It did 'ring' along for 2 min 30 sec, but needs a lot of changes. It does the LS brightening by touching the Base with a finger, increasing run time of visible light and brightness with how much pressure is applied.
Also found one of those 9 LED lights and might similarly hacksaw it. Being as solar garden lights run better on 3 LED's than 1 (for current draw) then it may be beneficial to run with whatever is the most efficient number of parallel LED's.
I'll replace the 1N4004 with a 1N914A, but also look at maybe a germanium bridge rectifier to make use of that original 2nd battery placement and send it back into the run cap.
(btw, bit of a laugh. I originally wrote 'germanium bride rectifier' by mistake.
"Listen honey, i'm just not happy with how you are after we got married".
That's maybe why some guys buy their ladies flowers - germaniums = geraniums
Give her flowers as a geranium bride rectifier !)
I found one of them bride rectifier's Slider.
The next video on the MEG-GA JOULE.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVVBF91sd6o
Lithium button cell was originally under top hat, then moved into LED metal housing and not inverted for inspection in second video.
Edit:-
I completely missed where TinMan inverts the LED housing to reveal no battery - thanks Groundloop for posting a clip of this. So, I'm a little happier now that TinMan's device is genuine.
Hoppy
Quote from: TinMan on 2014.05.18, 01:28:47
@ Slider
It would seem that there is a magnetic attraction to those 3 down thumber's to pulse lighting circuit's-as they now have joined my video's. I guess those that cant do-dont like.
Although i use a much larger cap than that of L.S setup,and my run time is much shorter,i get a much better light output-but looks can be deceiving.Taking the setup out side in the dark to use it as a torch,i cant see sh-t with it. So no good as a torch yet. you can read a book under the light,but with a bit of eye strain to go with it. So although it looks bright when looking straight into it,and it shine's nice on the work bench,i wouldnt yet really call it usable light.
Now the strange thing to me is,there is no ringing across the coil-the wave is nice and square.I would have thought there would be ringing,as the LED is directly across the run coil,which would normally cause a feedback loop into the run coil when coupled to the trigger coil like it is.
Below is the simple schematic for the circuit. May try a pot on the base to see if we can tune it a bit better.
TinMan,
Can you check you circuit drawing one more time. 2N3055 is a NPN transistor and you have connected the
emitter of the transistor to the plus side of your capacitor. Did you draw the electrolytic capacitor upside down?
Also, can you check your LED lamp to see how the LEDs are connected together? Are all the LEDs in parallel?
Added: Now I can see from the video that all 9 LEDs are in parallel.
Added: By looking at the video I get the attached circuit diagram. TinMan can you confirm that I got the drawing right?
GL.
Here are some numbers you can use to qualify your designs.
They are continuous mode operation rather than pulse mode.
Also these tests are far below the actual Lumens the LED's are capable of, I'm just measuring at the threshold or lower subjective level of light since no one seems to be quantifying and integrating actual light power delivered vs. power usage.
A single bright white LED (old one I had laying around):
3 uA 3V 0.009 mW Just Visible
10uA 3.3V 0.033 mW Definitely Visible
100 uA 3.8V 0.38 mW Bright
1000uA 4.12V 4.12 mW Very Bright
A cluster LED array like Tinmans latest video:
2uA 3.27V 0.0065mW Just Visible
10uA 3.42V 0.0342mW Definitely Visible
100uA 3.53V 0.353mW Bright but not evenly lit
1000uA 3.69V 3.69mW Very Bright and fairly even distribution
You can calculate the energy in a 1000 uF or 3300 uF capacitor charged to a given voltage and divide it by the required power
to see if you are exceeding expected run time and tapping any unknown source.
The problem is that in pulse mode e.g with a duty cycle of 10% on time a LED operated at 100 uA peak will look bright yet only be drawing 10uA average so this must be factored in when computing run times.
I have already done the calculations and run times seem to be right in the same order of magnitude that people are getting e.g. Lasersaber.
E=1/2CV^2
Let's apply a little simple math and see if anything unusual is happening.
I'm going to rerun these numbers using pulse mode, 10% duty cycle.
Can someone else verify the numbers?
Quote from: Hoppy on 2014.05.18, 14:12:28
Lithium button cell was originally under top hat, then moved into LED metal housing and not inverted for inspection in second video.
Edit:-
I completely missed where TinMan inverts the LED housing to reveal no battery - thanks Groundloop for posting a clip of this. So, I'm a little happier now that TinMan's device is genuine.
Hoppy
No-there was no button cell-no batteries at all.
Quote: I'm a little happier now that TinMan's device is genuine.
No no no-TinMans device is NOT genuine-and that was the whole purpose of the video's.
The thing is,people put so much trust in video's they see on youtube-as i mentioned in the second video.Then what follows is hour's of replicating at who knows what cost.There is simply no way that LED could be lit that bright from a 1000uf cap for that long.The scope shot from the first video showing the voltage/time on the LED should have made this evident-well that was my hope.
Yes GL,the cap is upsidedown-my mistake
Quote from: TinMan on 2014.05.18, 20:30:12
No-there was no button cell-no batteries at all.
Quote: I'm a little happier now that TinMan's device is genuine.
No no no-TinMans device is NOT genuine-and that was the whole purpose of the video's.
The thing is,people put so much trust in video's they see on youtube-as i mentioned in the second video.Then what follows is hour's of replicating at who knows what cost.There is simply no way that LED could be lit that bright from a 1000uf cap for that long.The scope shot from the first video showing the voltage/time on the LED should have made this evident-well that was my hope.
Yes GL,the cap is upsidedown-my mistake
Good job there TinMan! Akula has much to learn from the Master O0
Who's to say the large caps aren't drilled out then a battery inserted?
ION:
QuoteI have already done the calculations and run times seem to be right in the same order of magnitude that people are getting e.g. Lasersaber.
E=1/2CV^2
Let's apply a little simple math and see if anything unusual is happening.
I'm going to rerun these numbers using pulse mode, 10% duty cycle.
Can someone else verify the numbers?
Wait -- where are your numbers/calculations for LaserSaber's 5 HOUR run with TWO LED's running from a 1000 uF cap? I don't see these.
NOTE: He just taps the cap with a 9-V battery, so less than 9V in the cap at the start is likely... But conservatively, we can take 9V in the cap, then the stored energy is:
E=1/2CV^2 = 1/2 1000uF (81) = 40.5 mJ , if I'm not mistaken. So the two LED's are run for 5 hours on that, or roughly
40.5 mJ/ 5*3600s = 2.3 uW (average)
Would this even be visible?
Also, since the initial voltage is squared, it would be very helpful if LS would measure the starting voltage, so we can accurately determine E(initial) stored in the cap. For example, if Vin is 7 volts after the battery-tap, then I get:
E=1/2CV^2 = 1/2 1000uF (49) = 24500 uJ So the two LED's are run for 5 hours on that, or roughly
40.5 mJ/ 5*3600s = 1.4 uW (average).
LIGHT CALORIMETER
Some of you will recall the light calorimeter that I (and a few others) built years ago, to measure light output as a way to measure power output, assuming other losses (such as heat in the transistor) were minimal or could be neglected. This could be done in this case, too, but is a bit tricky with the pulsed output of the LED's. I have a light meter and could build another reflective light-box... Would 10% duty cycle on an LED show 1/10th the output brightness as 100% duty cycle -- as measured by the light meter?
From Physics Professor:
QuoteWait -- where are your numbers/calculations for LaserSaber's 5 HOUR run with TWO LED's running from a 1000 uF cap? I don't see these.
Yes that's because I did not include them (though I did the math).
I just did a little groundwork hoping the guys would also make some additional measurements besides just runtime.
I thought LS used a 3300 uF and 9 volt battery (which can be over 10 volts fresh) Maybe I didn't see his latest.
This would give around 165 mJ.
QuoteNOTE: He just taps the cap with a 9-V battery, so less than 9V in the cap at the start is likely... But conservatively, we can take 9V in the cap, then the stored energy is:
The capacitor will charge very rapidly considering the low internal resistance of the (Alkaline) cell, 150 to 300 milliohms.
With the higher value and using a 3300uF cap, you can estimate approximately one time constant (63.2%) per millisecond. It would be very hard to guess how long he taps it, best to try it yourself, but a 4 mS tap gets you 98% of voltage.
Currently I am doing some light measurements using a very sensitive Photodyne light power meter to quantify actual light power output.
One test I did reduced the duty cycle to about 1%, measured power input was kept at 0.009 mW yet the LED looked to the eye as if it were being driven with the higher 0.033 mW level. Note that this is far below the 0.1 Watt rating of the LED
The LED's at the threshold of visibility can be driven with a very sharp narrow pulse where the average power is extremely low, but the peak power is much higher.
The problem is it may shorten the LED life and rapidly degrade it's light output.
Quote from: TinMan on 2014.05.18, 20:30:12
No-there was no button cell-no batteries at all.
Quote: I'm a little happier now that TinMan's device is genuine.
No no no-TinMans device is NOT genuine-and that was the whole purpose of the video's.
The thing is,people put so much trust in video's they see on youtube-as i mentioned in the second video.Then what follows is hour's of replicating at who knows what cost.There is simply no way that LED could be lit that bright from a 1000uf cap for that long.The scope shot from the first video showing the voltage/time on the LED should have made this evident-well that was my hope.
Yes GL,the cap is upsidedown-my mistake
If it's not; then why purport that it is?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsorE1JD7HM 1000uf; only several seconds though...
your scheme doesn't work nearly so well...
But I guess then it doesn't matter what the inductance of your coils are.
Quote from: TinMan on 2014.05.18, 20:30:12
No-there was no button cell-no batteries at all.
Quote: I'm a little happier now that TinMan's device is genuine.
No no no-TinMans device is NOT genuine-and that was the whole purpose of the video's.
The thing is,people put so much trust in video's they see on youtube-as i mentioned in the second video.Then what follows is hour's of replicating at who knows what cost.There is simply no way that LED could be lit that bright from a 1000uf cap for that long.The scope shot from the first video showing the voltage/time on the LED should have made this evident-well that was my hope.
Yes GL,the cap is upsidedown-my mistake
Its interesting that everything was telling me your device was a fake, especially the square waveform. However, you coming over as an honest type of guy must have clouded my judgement to give you the benefit of my doubt. As you so rightly say, it should have been obvious to us all that 9 LED's could not possibly have stayed illuminated at that level or a lot less for so long on a 1000uF cap. There is so much crap on the internet and we all get exposed to it, with some getting sucked into believing it big time, like small fry into the sharks mouth!
Do you intend to tell us how you did it with no batteries?
Hoppy
A little role reversal:
Have you ever been really frustrated trying to decipher and replicate a device in a video, spending time away from your family or friends because you were being deceived.
Have you ever felt the anger for the wasted time when you found out it was a fake?
The video in question was picked up on the featured video page on Stefan's site OU.com. This will be viewed by tens of thousands, maybe a few hundred will spend the time trying to decipher the video and build it.
They may never see the disclaimer over here, and spend valuable time trying to replicate, only to be frustrated and angry at the end of the day.
Who bears the Karmic responsibility for such acts?
There are ripples in life, be careful what ripples you make.
Deceit is like casting a bag of feathers to the wind, will you be able to gather them all up again?.
"Oh what a tangled web you weave when first you practice to deceive"
I would caution anyone entertaining it to refrain from this type of activity.
My intent was never to decieve,it was to show that what you see ,isnt always what you get-like the Akula device that this device was to simulate. If my intent was to decieve,then i wouldnt be here now telling you all it dose not work with the part's depicted in the device.All parts are correct,and the square wave is exactly what the device put's out. Everything is as is except the cap-which is a 5f 2.7 volt cap,with a 1000uf cover.I told many people what i was up to ,and why.The 3rd video will show everything as it is-but as i work 14 hours a day,i havnt had time to make that video yet.
I told two people here what i was up to,and many more else where so no deceit was my intention. I will be doing these sort's of video's with every new so called OU device that come's out now,simply to show people how easly these true deciever's could be doing it.
I too have spent many hour's,and a whole lot of money chasing my tail on these so called OU devices,and now my goal is the show just how easy the result's can be had,and how easy it is to hide thing's.
I know a lot of people wont like the way i went about it,but thats the way it's going to be-but i will always show how it was done,and let you all know that it is a moke up-a fake. I also stated very clearly on the video-you seen it on you tube,it must be real.I have also made clear on the OU forum what it was all about,and not to waste your time on it.
My intention was never to decieve,and it never will be.But i had to make it sound and look as real as i could-just like Akula did.
Quote from: ION on 2014.05.19, 12:00:55
A little role reversal:
Have you ever been really frustrated trying to decipher and replicate a device in a video, spending time away from your family or friends because you were being deceived.
Have you ever felt the anger for the wasted time when you found out it was a fake?
The video in question was picked up on the featured video page on Stefan's site OU.com. This will be viewed by tens of thousands, maybe a few hundred will spend the time trying to decipher the video and build it.
They may never see the disclaimer over here, and spend valuable time trying to replicate, only to be frustrated and angry at the end of the day.
...
"The video in question" -- are you referring to TinMan's vid, or whose?
@all: I'm interested primarily here in the vid by LaserSaber, the 5 HOUR run with two LEDs glowing, running on a 1000 uF cap.
Are you (ION or TinMan or others) suggesting that LS is deceiving us in this 5-hour run?
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2014.05.19, 13:54:29
"The video in question" -- are you referring to TinMan's vid, or whose?
@all: I'm interested primarily here in the vid by LaserSaber, the 5 HOUR run with two LEDs glowing, running on a 1000 uF cap.
Are you (ION or TinMan or others) suggesting that LS is deceiving us in this 5-hour run?
No Steve-they are refering to mine.LaserSaber's devices always seem to work as shown.
Please see my last post just befor your's.
Got it, thanks, TinMan.
I've had some long run times with Joule-thief type circuits... but FIVE HOURS is truly remarkable! O0
TinMan,
We all share your frustration at so much crap and deception on the fora. However, joining- in is akin to running with the devil, no matter how well intentioned. Just my opinion.
Hoppy
Prof:
Quote"The video in question" -- are you referring to TinMan's vid, or whose?
I was referring to the Tinman's video that was later admitted to be a fake.
It's hard to pull a faked video back in, you lose control once you post it and it goes viral, people believe it as truth, they download it and re-post it on their channel or link it to their channel.
Only a handful know the original posters intentions or whether it was real or a spoof. Most believe it as a working device and it spreads like fire. Can you put out the flames?
I still see the faked TPU videos by Marco and Dave Clark being re-posted now and again as true working devices by unsuspecting but well meaning newbies. This is still happening over six years later.
Personally I don't want that kind of Karma even if my intentions were good, as it has large, long term negative repurcussions.
Everyone can do as they please, but there are consequences.
RomerUK was another one.
On the contrary, I've never been able to find the video that spherics alluded to of a working device.
What many don't seem to realize these days is that if someone posts a device and it's turns out to be a fake and was posted as working then they stand a very good chance of being billed for everyones wasted time, especially if they are easily tracked down, it nearly happened to Romerouk and i am sure it's only time before a case comes up, especially big investors in time and money. O0
Meanwhile, "back at the ranch", LS has posted another vid. This time, the run is for TWELVE hours. He reduced the number of diodes from 6 to 3 and says this helps. Yes, I think this is exciting stuff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5EXisVd9Xs&feature=em-uploademail
It's funny how LS's diagram already showed only 3 diodes.
I'm wondering how reducing the number affected the run, but am glad it worked as i'm low on Germanium's lol
Quote from: Slider2732 on 2014.05.19, 20:00:57
It's funny how LS's diagram already showed only 3 diodes.
Its also funny how it stays lit for 12 hours.
Hoppy said:
QuoteIts also funny how it stays lit for 12 hours.
Never believe what you see in videos as if it were truth, regardless of the banner ads.
I have been simulating the LS circuit in LTSpice and my waveforms look fairly identical to the ones he has shown, and as expected the circuit produces a very sharp narrow pulse of about 400uA through the LED's.
Once you understand what is going on, it is not so mysterious. The LED's are being hit with a high peak current pulse to get those photons moving, once they are shocked out of the nest, there is no bringing them back. Of course, they are fairly dim in reality, despite the theatrics at the beginning of the latest video. Note that LS charges the cap, then puts his fingers on the board to add some bias from body resistance, which puts a lot of current through the LED's for the "bright shine on the wall" part of the show, but the cap is quickly discharged. He then charges it again, repeats some more theatrics before the final charge for the long run. Now the LEDs are fairly dim compared to earlier.
It is the capacitance coupling between the windings that is not shown on his schematics, but it completes the circuit of what would be a normal blocking oscillator with very weak coupling to the base of the transistor. This produces the narrow pulse.
There are more stable means of generating such a pulse without having to rely on the hit or miss properties of the inter-winding capacitance. The leakage in the diodes help to get the transistor biased up a bit, but they are not really needed, you could just add a high value resistor to the plus supply to add some bias.
Green trace is current through the LEDs, blue trace is base of the transistor.
It appears that for the 12-hour run, he is still using one 1000uF cap (not sure?) and two LED's (green this time). So I get:
E=1/2CV^2 = 1/2 1000uF (81) = 40.5 mJ
The two LED's are run for 12 hours on that, or roughly
40.5 mJ/ 12*3600s = 0.94 micro-watts (average) for both LED's
I've suggested to LS a few tests.
Lasersabers video title:
12 hour run on 3500uF - SJR Looper V2 LED Driver
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5EXisVd9Xs
Everyone should watch this video very carefully. Note how dim the LEDs are until he puts his thumb on the back of the board to "bias up" the transistor. After all the playing with bright light on the wall he takes his thumb off the circuit and then it goes back to very dim. Those LEDs are at the threshold, I estimate 3uA to 6uA average current.
Quote from: ION on 2014.05.19, 22:57:39
Lasersabers video title:
12 hour run on 3500uF - SJR Looper V2 LED Driver
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5EXisVd9Xs
Everyone should watch this video very carefully. Note how dim the LEDs are until he puts his thumb on the back of the board to "bias up" the transistor. After all the playing with bright light on the wall he takes his thumb off the circuit and then it goes back to very dim. Those LEDs are at the threshold, I estimate 3uA to 6uA average current.
Also carefully watch and note how when the LED's extinguish, he reconnects the cap to re-charge the device. Is he using the TinMan trick??
Quote from: Hoppy on 2014.05.20, 06:32:00
Also carefully watch and note how when the LED's extinguish, he reconnects the cap to re-charge the device. Is he using the TinMan trick??
Please explain what you mean. How does the "trick" work?
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2014.05.20, 06:42:15
Please explain what you mean. How does the "trick" work?
By using a super-cap disguised by sheath as a standard cap. In the LS device another perhaps smaller super-cap would be needed concealed in the pot core, which is re-charged by the external cap. Unlikely but possible thus my ??
Hoppy
I don't think LS is faking his device, it is real with a lot of theatrics to mislead the watcher. The numbers seem to be in the right order of magnitude for LED's at the threshold of lighting. (3500 uF and a 10 volt fresh battery)
I am very wary when scientific presentations begin to resemble carnival acts, banners and all. Shades of Joe Newman and Dennis Lee.
If you are not familiar with their stories, watch their original presentations in the mid 1980's compared to those much later in their life and you will see what I mean.
Why is it that the spotlight and attention is so alluring that people abandon good science in favor of a "wow" presentation?
Human Nature?
Quote from: ION on 2014.05.20, 13:20:16
I don't think LS is faking his device, it is real with a lot of theatrics to mislead the watcher. The numbers seem to be in the right order of magnitude for LED's at the threshold of lighting. (3500 uF and a 10 volt fresh battery)
I am very wary when scientific presentations begin to resemble carnival acts, banners and all. Shades of Joe Newman and Dennis Lee.
If you are not familiar with their stories, watch their original presentations in the mid 1980's compared to those much later in their life and you will see what I mean.
Why is it that the spotlight and attention is so alluring that people abandon good science in favor of a "wow" presentation?
Human Nature?
I don't find it to "abandon good science in favor of a "wow" presentation" ; LS says he wishes to develop a flashlight; nothing wrong with that.
But what types of measurements would you like to see?
Quote Hoppy: Its interesting that everything was telling me your device was a fake, especially the square waveform.
The wave form was real Hoppy-nice and clean as you seen it. The pic below show's a current trace aswell-blue trace. This is across a 1.5 ohm resistor-seems to have some inductance there as well-bad resistor?.
Quote from: ION on 2014.05.20, 13:20:16
I don't think LS is faking his device, it is real with a lot of theatrics to mislead the watcher. The numbers seem to be in the right order of magnitude for LED's at the threshold of lighting. (3500 uF and a 10 volt fresh battery)
Its this one with the tiny SMD ceramic cap that really gets me wondering: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOUrRXINDqY&feature=em-uploademail (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOUrRXINDqY&feature=em-uploademail)
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2014.05.20, 13:36:24
I don't find it to "abandon good science in favor of a "wow" presentation" ; LS says he wishes to develop a flashlight; nothing wrong with that.
But what types of measurements would you like to see?
Agreed, nothing wrong a wow presentation if it's real and not just showmanship, posers abound on youtube, as you probably know.
I would like to see him show the measured current per pulse into the LED, both peak and average, pulses per second (frequency), duty cycle, Initial measured charge on the capacitor, measured value of the capacitor.
As a bonus, he could include the effects of dielectric absorption in the capacitor. This alone could extend the run time of a barely lit LED. Dielectric absorption is a battery effect that goes beyond the normal 1/2 cv^2 formula and is present to a large degree in big electrolytics.
Developing a bright, usable flashlight using pulse mode drivers has already been done many times over, the science is well advanced.
Is LS attempting to develop a flashlight for the blind, which would be an interesting project.
I saw such a project while employed at "Bionics Inc" in the mid 60's, but it used ultrasonic transducers.
Or is he attempting to build a flashlight which utilizes a source of as yet unknown energy? That would be more in line with this forum.
He really has stated just a long run time as his goal, usable light output has not been mentioned.
There is always hope.
Hoppy said:
QuoteIts this one with the tiny SMD ceramic cap that really gets me wondering: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOUrRXINDqY&feature=em-uploademail
Yes, that one caught my eye also, and if real would point to some extra energy being captured from somewhere.
SMD ceramic caps would not have that kind of duration, though it be short....but SMD electrolytics or tantalums would!
Quote from: ION on 2014.05.20, 15:49:12
Hoppy said:
Yes, that one caught my eye also, and if real would point to some extra energy being captured from somewhere.
SMD ceramic caps would not have that kind of duration, though it be short....but SMD electrolytics or tantalums would!
I've had another much closer look at the ceramic cap and can see with the small LED device, he has three SMD caps stacked on top of each other and they could be tantalums, looking at their body colour. The large device also has stacked capacitors, two or could be three, its hard to see clearly.
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/apr/27/business/la-fi-made-in-california-eye-20130428
It's a start.
Quote from: ION on 2014.05.20, 15:49:12
Agreed, nothing wrong a wow presentation if it's real and not just showmanship, posers abound on youtube, as you probably know.
I would like to see him show the measured current per pulse into the LED, both peak and average,
How do you do this, assuming we're in the uA range? A simple meter might give some sort of average. Would you suggest voltage drop across a tiny test resistor, or what?
I'm really interesting in measuring the output power... may not be so easy. Light output could be measured however.
Quotepulses per second (frequency), duty cycle, Initial measured charge on the capacitor, measured value of the capacitor.
These are good points, these one can do quite easily I think. Thanks.
QuoteAs a bonus, he could include the effects of dielectric absorption in the capacitor. This alone could extend the run time of a barely lit LED. Dielectric absorption is a battery effect that goes beyond the normal 1/2 cv^2 formula and is present to a large degree in big electrolytics.
Perhaps better to stay away from electrolytic caps, just use ceramic caps?
...
QuoteHoppy said:
QuoteIts this one with the tiny SMD ceramic cap that really gets me wondering: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOUrRXINDqY&feature=em-uploademail
Yes, that one caught my eye also, and if real would point to some extra energy being captured from somewhere.
SMD ceramic caps would not have that kind of duration, though it be short....but SMD electrolytics or tantalums would!
Wait, are you guys referring to the early part of the "5 hour" vid by LS where he shows the device running on the ceramic cap alone? (no electrolytic cap)
I would try severak tests running on that cap alone, no electrolytics.
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2014.05.20, 18:00:18
Wait, are you guys referring to the early part of the "5 hour" vid by LS where he shows the device running on the ceramic cap alone? [/b] (no electrolytic cap)
I would try severak tests running on that cap alone, no electrolytics.
Yes, except that I see two or maybe three stacked caps in parallel and possibly tantalum, not ceramics.
3 parts in parallel would be diodes, not caps.
Physics Prof asked:
QuoteHow do you do this, assuming we're in the uA range? A simple meter might give some sort of average. Would you suggest voltage drop across a tiny test resistor, or what?
I get reasonable average numbers for LED current using my Fluke on the uA scale in series with the LED. This does not tell you the peak, but you can work backwards from duty cycle to get that.
You could use a CSR but now you are getting way down in the noise and need a very sensitive meter. You could try looking across the resistor with a scope, but the signal will be very noisy also.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Using the simulation circuit and substituting a 50 to 350 pF variable mica capacitor for the fixed 200 pf, I can tune the drive capacitance to look just like the LS circuit
on the bench with a real circuit. I wound the pot core using 15 mH each, winding on a split bobbin to minimize inter winding capacitance. The circuit then draws about 20 uA avg. and delivers about 15uA avg. to the LED.
The aim was to prove that by minimizing inter winding capacitance, I could simulate it external to the pot core winding capacitance and get the same waveform. So nothing special about the LS circuit, it is a current starved blocking oscillator.
I have not attempted to reduce power consumption further, but this can be done by raising the 1 meg resistor, however this makes the circuit hard to start. LS relies on diode leakage and sometimes his thumb appropriately placed to start.
That would mean for production he could only ship two units. ;)
Quote from: Hoppy on 2014.05.20, 18:20:13
Yes, except that I see two or maybe three stacked caps in parallel and possibly tantalum, not ceramics.
I asked LS. He replied "The little ceramic caps are 100uF. There are two of them stacked in parallel."
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2014.05.20, 19:12:32
I asked LS. He replied "The little ceramic caps are 100uF. There are two of them stacked in parallel."
I think he means 2 x 100nF?
You know, LS is actually very informative... let's give him credit! Note: he's going on vacation soon.
His reply:
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/CL32A107MPVNNNE/1276-3364-1-ND/3891450
These are indeed 100uF multi-layer ceramic caps.
ION - do you need to change your SIM?
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2014.05.20, 19:41:19
You know, LS is actually very informative... let's give him credit! Note: he's going on vacation soon.
His reply:
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/CL32A107MPVNNNE/1276-3364-1-ND/3891450
These are indeed 100uF multi-layer ceramic caps.
ION - do you need to change your SIM?
OK, thanks for checking. If this checks out with ION's SIM, then I'm happy we are seeing a genuine set of LED drivers from LS.
ION's circuit and LS's latest are shown for everyone's convenience:
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2014.05.20, 19:41:19
You know, LS is actually very informative... let's give him credit! Note: he's going on vacation soon.
His reply:
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/CL32A107MPVNNNE/1276-3364-1-ND/3891450
These are indeed 100uF multi-layer ceramic caps.
ION - do you need to change your SIM?
I agree, he is informative. I give him credit for dogged persistence also.
Those caps are not shown on his earlier schematic, besides those are the power supply storage caps which are a variable depending on how long he wants to show it. Short term, he uses just the ceramics, long term he adds the external reservoir.
I don't show a storage cap since I am operating from a voltage source in the sim. I can possibly change it to 100uF or whatever and do some time measurements.
Here I simulate the light tap to the voltage source by setting the battery to a time "on" of 5 mS and coupling the battery to the 100uF using a Schottky diode. I couldn't find the switch I wanted in my library so I did it this way.
The diode will drop about 0.2-0.3 Volts and the battery is simulated with 300 milliohms internal series resistance, like a PP3. Note the capacitor is fully charged in about 200 uS, so a 5mS "tap" is way too long.
green is cap voltage
blue is collector
red is base
Good stuff, ION. I don't know if LS has taken a time measurement with just the 2x 100uF ceramic caps - but wonder if you could do a "prediction" SIM, to see how long the LEDs would glow? that may be asking a lot of the SIM, but even a rough estimate would be interesting and something to compare with a measurement coming up (I think).
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2014.05.20, 22:33:08
Good stuff, ION. I don't know if LS has taken a time measurement with just the 2x 100uF ceramic caps - but wonder if you could do a "prediction" SIM, to see how long the LEDs would glow? that may be asking a lot of the SIM, but even a rough estimate would be interesting and something to compare with a measurement coming up (I think).
Thanks Prof
I was doing just that when my program locked up.....guess I crashed the ram from too much number crunching......will try again with different settings. Should not be hard to do. As it was progressing you could see the slow decline in cap voltage.
I guess I could reduce the storage cap down to 1uF, then multiply the time by 200, but I like using real values.
Anyone have tricks for running the sim faster?
Need more time in a day, can anyone slow the earth down for say a 36 hour day? C.C
Edit: Here is a run with 0.1uF storage cap. Now you need to multiply the time numbers by 1000 for 100uF actual. Note that the curve looks like a typical R-C discharge curve. Blue is Led Current , Green is Collector.
@ION,
Thanks for posting the results of your SIM.
From a practical point of view, my experimentation shows that around 200uA per LED gives the minimum light level for a 3 or 4 x white LED cluster suitable as a close-up casual reading lamp that would just be acceptable to me. So, the LS setup with 300uF or 400uF of tank cap plus a cap re-charge switch pressed every 20 seconds or so to connect a 9V battery, should do the job. However, it would be more practical (and probably cheaper to build) IMO to just have an on/off switch and run the lamp from a PWM LED chip driver on a say 3 x AAA battery pack or 9V PP3 battery or 2 x 3V lithium button cells, depending on mA/hrs and size of build required. Better still buy a cheap Chinese LED torch with chip driver.
Quote from: ION on 2014.05.20, 21:53:48
Here I simulate the light tap to the voltage source by setting the battery to a time "on" of 5 mS and coupling the battery to the 100uF using a Schottky diode. I couldn't find the switch I wanted in my library so I did it this way.
The diode will drop about 0.2-0.3 Volts and the battery is simulated with 300 milliohms internal series resistance, like a PP3. Note the capacitor is fully charged in about 200 uS, so a 5mS "tap" is way too long.
green is cap voltage
blue is collector
red is base
Hi ION,
i replicated your little circuit with the parts i had, and made the same measurements , see screenshots (1st detailed look at traces, 2nd overview of the traces later in the run)
I used:
2x 10000uF in series = 5000uF
10Mohm resistor (giving still some good led output)
nanoperm toroid 2x 138mH
1 led from a solar garden light
BC547 transistor as i have burned out all my 2n2222 and germanium transistors with this little circuit >:( (they all destroy their base-emitter junction)
10V on the caps to start.
220pF ceramic capacitor
No time measurements done.
The problem is the led current which is very small.
I used my AC current probe in the led plus lead at its highest sensibility position (1mA/div.) but due to the current probe terminator it should be taken times 2
(don't use the number in the box as i had some spikes in the green trace), so it shows something like 650uA, times 2 = 1.3mA peak.
Using a lower value for the resistor (like 5MOhm and 2.2Mohm) brightens up the led, shortens the run time and increases the collector negative pulse width.
Yellow = collector voltage
Blue = Base voltage
Green = led current
Regards Itsu.
Quote from: TinMan on 2014.05.20, 13:44:24
Quote Hoppy: Its interesting that everything was telling me your device was a fake, especially the square waveform.
The wave form was real Hoppy-nice and clean as you seen it. The pic below show's a current trace aswell-blue trace. This is across a 1.5 ohm resistor-seems to have some inductance there as well-bad resistor?.
@ TinMan,
I forgot to comment that your square waveform surprised me because it was so flat topped and clean on the rising and falling edges. I thought you may have had a chip driver in the LED assembly.
Thanks, ION.. looking forward to your results!
And thanks Itsu!
QuoteBC547 transistor as i have burned out all my 2n2222 and germanium transistors with this little circuit Angry (they all destroy their base-emitter junction)
LS noted that he had burned out xsistors also.
ITSU:
The reverse B-E voltage can destroy that junction when playing with higher values of coupling capacitance. A simple 1n4148 B-E will prevent this, and is good practice, if large reverse currents are expected.
Look at the spec sheet for the reverse B-E voltage and current capability for the transistor of your choice. It should not be exceeded. Capacitance coupling, whether it be inter winding capacitance or externally added puts a sharp negative pulse on the B-E junction that can degrade or destroy it.
LS however uses 3 1n4148 diodes to get some leakage current into the base so the circuit will start, which also offers protection. Diodes do have leakage. When that doesn't work he uses his thumb to add extra resistance. Whether your oscillator can start with 10 meg or 100 meg is based on the beta of the transistor. Super beta transistors from Zetex would probably allow such high values and more reliable start up, but the leds will be dim with less drive current be it bias resistor or capacitance value..
In my sims and on the bench, the oscillator keeps running until the cap gets to 1 or 2 volts, but converts slowly into a sine wave long after the leds have gone out.
Note that current to the leds and the light output diminishes with time according to the standard R-C time constant discharge curve.
Quote from: ION on 2014.05.19, 12:00:55
A little role reversal:
Have you ever been really frustrated trying to decipher and replicate a device in a video, spending time away from your family or friends because you were being deceived.
Have you ever felt the anger for the wasted time when you found out it was a fake?
The video in question was picked up on the featured video page on Stefan's site OU.com. This will be viewed by tens of thousands, maybe a few hundred will spend the time trying to decipher the video and build it.
They may never see the disclaimer over here, and spend valuable time trying to replicate, only to be frustrated and angry at the end of the day.
Who bears the Karmic responsibility for such acts?
There are ripples in life, be careful what ripples you make.
Deceit is like casting a bag of feathers to the wind, will you be able to gather them all up again?.
"Oh what a tangled web you weave when first you practice to deceive"
I would caution anyone entertaining it to refrain from this type of activity.
Could there be a way around this by showing exactly how a device could be / was probably faked by filming every step of how this is achieved prior to demonstrating the device running? Take the TK Aqua2 as an example. IMO this was probably simply faked by running a thin wire through the tubular earth braid (as shown below) and used as the 'live' conductor, with the braid being used as 'neutral'. This approach should lead to no misunderstanding on the purpose & intention of the video. I ran a 2KW electric fan heater on around 5 metres of one strand of the thin red teflon coated wire shown.
I agree, Hoppy, the best is a disclaimer at the beginning, but better yet, imbed the disclaimer into the video saying in a banner "how x device was faked". The banner should be visible as a watermark throughout the video, so if someone copies a piece of it, this valuable info will not be deleted.
I totally agree with your take on the ground wire and came to the same conclusion early on. Unless someone can connect and disconnect the ground during operation clearly and with a single point connector, I will remain suspicious of ground wires.
Akula has a "foul" and points off for this, and because of his fakery in some videos, I also mistrust his other offerings.
@ ION,
Yes, an excellent idea to include an embedded banner in a video. Most of the fakes we see on the fora are silly and obvious and not worth time wasted on them but its the self-running videos from the serial fakers that need to be countered.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mJX5qW4ghk&feature=youtu.be
Hoppy Hoppy,here you go again,a.king21 who organized the trip to see Tariel in Georgia
that led to the aquarium 2 video,stated many times,that during the 4.5 hours the 2kw heater was running
the ground was removed for a time and it still worked.Since there are no pictures of this disconnection of the ground,you could say he is a lying. ;D
Unfortunately in my opinion a.king21 is holding out on some pictures and information,
he believes he can profit on Tariels device,it can never happen as Tariels device like the tpu is a low tech device
easily made by most people once the information is known.
Ok guys
You decide ,the theory is that a ground braid carries two wires and transmits power from the concrete connection outside,
thru the window into the box.I have included a picture of the back of the box showing where the
ground braid goes,it goes into a black box,notice that the silver braid is hooked to a copper braid.
The next picture is a picture not done by me but another member who removed all non important features,
the connection from the 2kw heater comes from blue wires they go to a coil to give it a Tesla slant,
two blue thick wires are the direct connections to the 2kw heater,one wire is connect to the copper ground braid
the other is connected to a funny green transformer.
A wire bundle comes out of the black box, it includes all connections to the green transformer
in that bundle,there should be a return wire,if the power is coming from an external source(ground braid)
Where is that wire,why is there no connection to the thick blue wire connected to the green transformer
at all.
Do I believe this device is real, yes, unfortunately it is a very low tech device,you could not make any money with it.This is the reason Tariel puts on hes shows.
My investigation is because it appeared to be related to the tpu,but operated on ac,line frequency,the question was how and why.
A.king21's team had Tariel make this device when Tariel was very sick,normally,he modifies an unknown component then hides it in a box,
this makes it impossible to figure out what the component is.This time because he was so sick he dropped hes guard
and used a non modified component,and didn't hide it,a great deal is known about this green transformer,its original
purpose ,the year of manufacture,pinouts,ohm readings.
Quote from: cheappower2012 on 2014.05.23, 05:08:50
Hoppy Hoppy,here you go again,a.king21 who organized the trip to see Tariel in Georgia
that led to the aquarium 2 video,stated many times,that during the 4.5 hours the 2kw heater was running
the ground was removed for a time and it still worked.Since there are no pictures of this disconnection of the ground,you could say he is a lying. ;D
Unfortunately in my opinion a.king21 is holding out on some pictures and information,
he believes he can profit on Tariels device,it can never happen as Tariels device like the tpu is a low tech device
easily made by most people once the information is known.
C'mon, TK's no fool. He knows that we will be eyeballing all over the fish tank. He certainly would not connect the 'X' wire in camera view. Its most likely taken out of the braid and into the black box before the thin section of braid and routed to the blue wire coil out of camera view. Alternatively, it could be a couple or more strands of thin gauge ECW taken right through the braid, which would not be easily detected running through the thin section of braid.
The bottom line, is that a 2KW fire could not be run for 4.5hrs (if that report from a.king21 is to be believed) on batteries that could be hidden in that aquarium, so if its low tech as you say and there is no grid connection, then you must believe that this device is running on free energy. I certainly don't!
As for the device running with the earth wire disconnected and a.king holding out on some pictures and information, he has never shown any photographic evidence from his investigating team that this was in fact possible and I very much doubt he ever will.
Tariel was near death,he didn't figure anyone could piece together
his device so really didn't hide anything,this time he dropped hes guard.
He Used this transformer for a very specific
reason,there are also other information thats been missed ,in plain sight.
One thing that has always boggled my mind the insistence that the understand of
things learned in college classes would apply totally to a real world free energy(converter) device.
This device is not a free energy device,but a converter,it converts an unknown
energy source into electrical energy,the energy source is very dense this is why 2kw
is not outrageous.
I only posted because I knew you would post a counter argument,you assume that
the x wire is out of camera view,a.king21's team were idiots,a.king21 lied,Tariel hid the x-wire.
Your argument boils down to show me a working device,then I will believe it maybe,you see an
acorn
and you say whats that,you don't see the possible end result.During my time in the tpu threads
at
overunity.com,people tried countless things,they never got anywhere,theres no building on anything,
because you constantly
change the rules so there can be no progress,as has happened on many devices of course most
didn't work.I am not
trying to convince you Tariels device
is real any more that trying to convince members here that SM lied hes ass off to them thats
impossible,you want to believe tariels device is fake
some members want believe SM didn't lie to them,you can believe what you want.
Look at whats being built in this forum a replication of replication where the replication
was never shown to work,and some thinking it will self run thats totally insane.
I'll stick to investigating Tariels device and SM's device, its a long shot but better odds.
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2014.05.23, 04:47:23
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mJX5qW4ghk&feature=youtu.be
That shows the waveform obtained with LS's latest device.
ION -- I'd say you were right -- the circuit provides pulsed power at a fairly high voltage (30 Vpp typical) but low duty cycle as shown in the vid.Makes a decent flashlight.
Unfortunately, in probing with my DSO probe last night, I blew out the transistor... sigh. LS says he has blown many xsistors playing with the circuit (and not to feel too bad about it). But I'm traveling today, so no repairs until tomorrow I think.
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2014.05.23, 12:47:33
That shows the waveform obtained with LS's latest device.
ION -- I'd say you were right -- the circuit provides pulsed power at a fairly high voltage (30 Vpp typical) but low duty cycle as shown in the vid.
Makes a decent flashlight.
Unfortunately, in probing with my DSO probe last night, I blew out the transistor... sigh. LS says he has blown many xsistors playing with the circuit (and not to feel too bad about it). But I'm traveling today, so no repairs until tomorrow I think.
The transistors may be destroyed because of the
peak reverse current or voltage applied to the base of the transistor. Check the data sheet for the device you are using. It will probably state the E-B reverse voltage but not current. The junction will break down at some level of current.
A simple diode B-E would prevent this and is common practice in the industry, especially in circuits where peak reverse current or voltage is expected. A low value resistor in series with the base (100 to 1k) would also reduce peak reverse current.
It might also be that the C-E voltage is being exceeded at the spike during the turn off time of the transistor, the rising edge, especially if the LED's do not turn on rapidly enough to snub the spike.
Theoretically you could reduce the burst rate to around 20 bursts per second and the retina will integrate into what appears to be a steady light.
Anyone ever read over Hertz original experiments where he discovered EM waves and attributed them to Maxwell's theory?
He talked about two different effects that could be detected: one from a wire and the other from the oscillator (the capacitive plates on both sides of the spark gap. Early spark gap wireless telegraphs used large capacitive plates much like a crude Tesla coil. This all changed when they strove for continuous wave transmission and transmission of information. Those early spark gap transmitters were on and off with coherers for detectors.
Anyway, reading over all this historical stuff, I believe Tesla was correct when he told, and showed, Hertz he had detected longitudinal electric waves. I think this is what Joseph Henry, Elihu Thomson, and even Thomas Edison had all discovered as well.
Then it was all lost in the rapid rise of industrialization.
@PhysicsProf
It's good of LS to have lent you his circuit. I would like to know, since you see 30 vpp at microamps, I am thinking that the capacitor of 3600uF 10vdc (if I am not mistaken) is probably to big. Maybe better and longer run times could be had with three 1200uF but rated at 3-4 volts in parallel to achieve the same 3600uF but at a much lower rated value, this could be better as this would be much closer to the rms value of the circuit.
I am thinking that part of that recharge energy is lost in such a big capacitor.
wattsup
Thanks for comments, ION and Wattsup. I'll pass these along to LS, for when he returns from a "short" vacation.
It was kind of him to let me have a look -- NO tricks like a super-cap lurking somewhere.
I will do a little more playing, as he sent a second device - same ckt - but with a transformer from a disposable camera. Again, everything soldered in place. He works with tiny wires... ;) I'll see if I can do some measurements without blowing THIS transistor.
Here is a link showing the apparatus...
http://www.newscotland1398.net/nfld1901/marconi-nfld.html
Almost all of the early experimenters used capacitive plates as the radiative elements instead of wire aerials.
Quote from: cheappower2012 on 2014.05.23, 09:10:20
I'll stick to investigating Tariels device and SM's device, its a long shot but better odds.
How is your work on these devices progressing?
LaserSaber pointed out to me a very interesting article published in the peer-reviewed journal, Physical Review Letters, one of the premier journals of physics. Note that an LED efficiency of 230% is observed.
Below is a summary published by PhysOrg. More here: http://phys.org/news/2012-03-efficiency.html
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2014.05.24, 14:13:15
LaserSaber pointed out to me a very interesting article published in the peer-reviewed journal, Physical Review Letters, one of the premier journals of physics. Note that an LED efficiency of 230% is observed.
Below is a summary published by PhysOrg. More here: http://phys.org/news/2012-03-efficiency.html
In regards to LEDs, if you connect many of them in series and power on from BEMF charged (in my case 4300uF - 3300+1000) electrolytic capacitors, the power consumption observed for 7x 1W LEDs ( http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10x-50x-1W-3W-LED-Bright-High-Power-Bead-Emitters-Diodes-Lamp-Epistar-Bulb-/161261720748 ) in my observation was about 0.1W to 0.2W (12.5V 0.125-0.25A in PS meter) to get them fully lit.... ;)
Also the circuit needs to be adjusted to switch off generator as soon as output capacitor reaches certain voltage level.
This comes from akula 30W LED flashlight circuit error fixing and practical test - http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2358.msg38899#msg38899
Cheers!
Video showing a recent (puzzling) experiment: http://youtu.be/gRigG687ies
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2015.03.30, 04:56:02
Video showing a recent (puzzling) experiment: http://youtu.be/gRigG687ies
Yes, that's interesting.
Does your AC voltage detector respond in that way when you bring it near the scope probe's "ground" reference clip? I was hoping you'd try that in the video.
The thought occurred to me that you may have a ground fault in your wiring. Do you happen to have an outlet ground fault checker that you could use to test your outlets? Something like this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/381141638686?lpid=82&chn=ps
I should think that if your coils are picking up the 60 (or 50) Hz signal from your house wiring that you would be able to see this with proper settings of the oscilloscope. You may be interested in watching my short video on that topic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spGpBz4K8rU
Whatever you do, do _NOT_ try "scoping the mains" directly with your scope! To do that safely you need to take some special precautions.
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2015.03.30, 04:56:02
Video showing a recent (puzzling) experiment: http://youtu.be/gRigG687ies
The waveform on the scope looks like EMI from either fluorescent lights such as CFL's or other long tube solid state ballasts or could be any plug in power supply e.g for a laptop computer etc
Best to make a sniffer coil to probe around and find the source of the high EMI. Surely there is a switched mode power device nearby. Your large coils are probably stepping up ambient EMI to a level high enough to trigger your AC sniffer wand. A load resistor on the coil leads e.g. 100 ohms should reduce the output of the coil by loading it. Then with the load you can also calculate how much power is being oicked up.....it will be very small.
Note also that a lot of Chinese equipment does not have internal EMI filtering on the line side such as common mode chokes and line rated capacitors to ground. Such equipment radiates rather badly and does not have FCC approvals stickers or have not passed EMI emission standards. These expensive components are often eliminated from the design to certain markets for economic reasons..
On to another development - this one has "buoyancy" devices for sale AND a live demonstration in Germany.. Along TinMans line perhaps?
Is it for real?
QuoteQuoteFrom: Roberto Reuter
To: Sterling Allan
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2015 12:55 AM [MDT]
Subject: Re: need help with KPP buoyancy device skepticism
Dear Sterling,
While I am waiting on my flight, let me try to explain a very important thing:
Whatever theories telling you, the KPP does not or could not work - are wrong, because it does. To understand this is maybe the biggest issue within this whole project.
The upcoming next days will be the very first beginning of the practical proof.
We do not argue with math nor physics concepts anymore, we show it works - that's much more.
I hope you can understand that.
..another quick answer: No external power in. currently 4.8 kW power out
with best Regards from Roberto
TWIFE™ Featuring SHT 900x replicas and Rosch KPP
Featured: News > This Week in Free Energy™ >
TWIFE™ Featuring SHT 900x replicas and Rosch KPP - GAIA demonstrating 5 kW home power Rosch KPP prototype; 100 MW total KPP in operation • Tewari's RLG prepping for commercial roll-out • Wasif Kahloon demo pending • Perendev scam • QEG Manual Update • Rawlemon's Spherical Solar Generator • Stockton smart meters explode from surge • Engineered Drought in Calif. (FreeEnergyNews; April 23, 2015)
Part II: Gaia-Energy demonstrating 5 kW home power Rosch KPP prototype in Germany; taking orders
Featured: Buoyancy > Rosch Innovations AG >
Part II: GAIA demonstrating 5 kW home power Rosch KPP prototype in Germany; taking orders - From April 25 - May 6, GAIA will be demonstrating a 5 kilowatt version of Rosch' technology that harnesses power of rising floats using pressurized air, which then descend after the air escapes above the water chamber. They will be making 500 units in their first round, half of which are already sold. (PESN; April 22, 2015)
Part I: 100 MW total Rosch Thrust Kinetic Generators in operation
Featured: Buoyancy > Rosch Innovations AG >
Part I: 100 MW total Rosch Thrust Kinetic Generators in operation - Technology harnesses power of rising floats using pressurized air, which then descend after the air escapes above the water chamber. 5 MW, 40 MW and 100 MW power plant designs targeted for utilities. Media, industry, and public demonstrations scheduled for May. Energy price is 2x better than solar or wind. (PESN; April 22, 2015)
Plexiglas Demo at Autumn Fair 2014
Here's a video showing them demonstrating their Plexiglas see-through version at a trade show. It shows the inner workings of how the compressed air fitting lines up with the rotating floats. Note that the apparatus is on wheels, which rules out hidden wires from under the device. (The April 25 - May 6, 2015 demo will not be Plexiglas, as it is a production prototype for what will be installed for kit sales for the production of power.)
Project AuKW - buoyant power plant link (YouTube; September 26, 2014)
Continuation
http://www.gaia-energy.org - Official blog
See also
Directory:Thrust_Kinetic_Generator_by_Rosch_Innovations_AG
Directory:Gaia-Energy -- Global Association for Independent Energy & Altruism
Directory:Buoyancy | News:Buoyancy
http://gaia-energy.org/es-ist-soweit-mach-dich-energieautark/
I'm finding mostly German...
Here's a PESN write-up, English:
http://pesn.com/2015/04/22/9602607_100-MW-total_Rosch-Thrust-Kinetic-Generators_in_operation/
Does anyone know if there is a possibility to build a small test device on these principles? or are these "proprietary secrets"?
Steven this was first done in Australia, Ash did post this Australian design some years back on EF.
I think it has merit, why, well who would spend such a large amount of money on something that does not work!!!!!
I would think that water pressure from depth comes into play here, just maybe that is the excess needed to make it run, the idea is cool and simple to test, though the depth might be an item that is needed to make it work and as so more difficult to build ( unless you have a deep well!).
The delta pressure between depth of water (pressure) and atmospheric air pressure, is quite an energy item :) If air is pumped to replace the water in the inverted cups (not really tanks) at the bottom of the circuit, the delta P will do the rest ???
The bottom of the cups would have several flap valves "rubber" to let the water in on the downward stroke side "zero delta P" and close on the air pressure upward side, air displacing the water, closing the valves and creating a huge positive delta P, and away she goes to try and equal the pressures.
Now I ask the question, what laws are broken here?
Conservation of energy? compresser energy to replace the water with air? that is the question
regards
Mike 8)
Dear Mike.
I have to agree with you, a similar principle has been in use for many years, the Air lift pump. Because water cannot be drawn by vacuum from a depth greater than 28 feet early water pumps used compressed air to raise water to the surface.
A simple proof of concept could be built using a Bicycle wheel with suitably shaped cups ( conical?) , no need for valves if you think about it, the top of the cup will be open as it enters the water. I can see this concept working quite well as in an enclosed environment the water that surrounds the device would also rotate in the same direction, aiding the overall effect.
Just some simple musings. :)
Cheers Grum.
Thanks for comments.
More from PESN:
Quote
Since this last Saturday, they have had their first "serial series" 5 kW (home power) prototype running, continuously. As of this morning (MDT), it has now produced more than 200 kW-h of power. They have had no glitches in its operation so far.
They call it the AUKW, short for AuftriebsKraftwerk; translated, that means: buoyancy power plant. It stands 5 meters tall with a base of one square meter. (See photo gallery below.)
Starting this next Saturday, April 25 until May 6, GAIA will be doing a public demonstration of the AUKW prototype at Brüssler Strasse 15, 53841 Troisdorf (next to Cologne airport), Germany. You can sign up to attend via their website. Prior registration is required, due to limited capacity. They can handle up to 120 visitors per day.
They also plan to have a live stream video available for people to observe via the web. Here's a promotional video about their upcoming demonstration:
The production prototype is self-sustaining (no input power), with 4.8 kW net output.
http://pesn.com/2015/04/22/9602609_Gaia-Energy_demonstrating_5-kW-home-power_Rosch-KPP-prototype_Germany,_taking-orders/
I am sure most here are aware that TinMan has been building a buoyancy device which seems to have great potential.
He's been trying to ask Mark E for help with calculations ,but there seems to be a problem with that arrangement.
although to be honest Brad is well aware that calculations go out the window with the Loop cycle.
Hey Chet
QuoteI am sure most here are aware that TinMan has been building a buoyancy device which seems to have great potential.
He's been trying to ask Mark E for help with calculations ,but there seems to be a problem with that arrangement.
although to be honest Brad is well aware that calculations go out the window with the Loop cycle.
Unfortunately Mark may be able to tell you why it cannot work by the numbers however he has literally no insight into how it might work nor how we might make it work practically to our benefit. That is why I am here however the first thing that became apparent is the most relevant numbers disclosed. $30,000 for a 5Kw unit works out to $6/watt running 24/7 or 120Kw/hrs per day however I can buy a off the shelf comparable 5Kw solar array including the inverters for $5000.
Now let's throw some relevant numbers at this, there are roughly 8765 hrs in a year thus the device in question may generate 43,825 Kw/hrs annually however it is obviously maintenance intensive and this must be factored in to the $30,000 price. At my location a 5Kw solar installation may generate 12,500 Kw/hrs annually however it has no real maintenance and only costs $5000. Now the more relevant numbers...
Water buoyancy generator :
5Kw @ 8765 hrs = 43,825Kw/hrs annually for $30,000 plus maintenance.
Conventional Solar :
5Kw @ 2500 hrs = 12,500Kw/hrs annually for $5000.
If I buy 6 solar arrays for the same $30,000 then I could generate 30Kw @ 2500hrs annually and generate 75,000Kw/hrs annually which is 1.7 times more Energy than the water generator with basically no maintenance. As well solar cells and the grid tie electronics attached to them are dropping in price at a rapid rate thus any other technology must compete at that level to remain relevant. Now some might argue the cost of solar shown here is too low however 6 months ago I did a cost estimate for a third party and in fact the price of solar minus installation costs is already a $1/watt and dropping. Keep in mind I did not consider local sources which were as high as $16/watt thus all were immediately discounted and global sources were found. As always any installation is location specific and in my case solar is by far the better option.
Thus this technology is already nearly twice as expensive as some conventional energy sources such as solar/micro-hydro and it hasn't even really been proven yet. The key word here is "Practical" and while I think these devices are really neat an electrodynamic motionless generator would render them a mute point before the first one ever left the factory. The other option is a DIY unit which is why I think most of us are here and I will have to do some more research although I think I have a very good idea of exaclty what they are doing here.
AC
Allcanadian
One strong solar storm and all solar panels connected to grid are useless.
Hi Graham
Will need the rubber flap valve or the cup will be like a boat, with the valve the boat sinks ;D no buoyancy ;)
You can see these in the photos, series of round holes. I can't see how they enter the air into the "drums in their case", a bit of an engineers nightmare if each has a pipe feed.
I would just have an air outlet at the bottom of the tank, maybe they tried that and it did not work :-\
regards
Mike 8)
Doh !! ;D
True, they would float until being drawn under !! A loss there for sure !!
It seems there is now a lot of talk about the device being a fake !! Time will tell, I guess.
Cheers Grum.
Quote from: Grumage on 2015.04.26, 17:17:00
Doh !! ;D
True, they would float until being drawn under !! A loss there for sure !!
It seems there is now a lot of talk about the device being a fake !! Time will tell, I guess.
Cheers Grum.
Graham, that's one very expensive fake :D
On the latest link "PESN", I now see how they enter the air O0
14,000€
including 20% tax (5kw) is not bad, and yes we could build it for half the price or less, say 5000€.
Cologne is a 2 hour flight for me, if my costs were met I would go on a one day round trip, about 1000€ or less, have not looked at flight costs.
regards
Mike 8)
QuoteSince this last Saturday, they have had their first "serial series" 5 kW (home power) prototype running, continuously. As of this morning (MDT), it has now produced more than 200 kW-h of power. They have had no glitches in its operation so far.
They call it the AUKW, short for AuftriebsKraftwerk; translated, that means: buoyancy power plant. It stands 5 meters tall with a base of one square meter. (See photo gallery below.)
Starting this next Saturday, April 25 until May 6, GAIA will be doing a public demonstration of the AUKW prototype at Brüssler Strasse 15, 53841 Troisdorf (next to Cologne airport), Germany. You can sign up to attend via their website. Prior registration is required, due to limited capacity. They can handle up to 120 visitors per day.
They also plan to have a live stream video available for people to observe via the web. Here's a promotional video about their upcoming demonstration:
The production prototype is self-sustaining (no input power), with 4.8 kW net output.
http://pesn.com/2015/04/22/9602609_Gaia-Energy_demonstrating_5-kW-home-power_Rosch-KPP-prototype_Germany,_taking-orders/
AC - its not the cost/watt, its the CLAIM that it is "self-sustaining" that makes it interesting - despite the higher cost.
I'm not yet convinced they have a " prototype is self-sustaining (no input power), with 4.8 kW net output", but the claim is worth exploring IMO.
IF it works as claimed here, wouldn't you say its worth the cost?
Actually, what I'd like to see is a small (say 200W) TEST model that a guy could build cheaply, then test - and try to find out where the "entering power" is coming FROM. Or if there's a mistake somewhere.
Can we disentangle the info stream enough to build such a TEST model? that's my question...
So let's ask questions, gather info, see if we can "reverse engineer" - or perhaps persuade these "altruistic" guys (their claim) to build and sell us a 200W TEST model... for free verifications!
@PhysicsProf
QuoteAC - its not the cost/watt, its the CLAIM that it is "self-sustaining" that makes it interesting - despite the higher cost.
I would agree, it is the claim however I wanted to make the point that we should keep an open mind and understand that free energy and renewable energy are one and the same only in FE the source is not apparent to most.
QuoteSo let's ask questions, gather info, see if we can "reverse engineer" - or perhaps persuade these "altruistic" guys (their claim) to build and sell us a 200W TEST model... for free verifications!
I have been all down this road a long time ago and already know exactly how it works however as is often my case once I found the answers I was looking for I understood there are better easier ways and found the technology was obsolete. Maybe we could discuss the issues here, just you and I, however I generally lose interest in talking about these things when the critics or other people jump in with unworkable idea's they have not fully thought through.
We could start with the first problem we encounter when we compress air then pump this air to the bottom of a tank filled with water. First we lose energy as heat when we compress the air and the compressor must act against the full force of the water pressure at the bottom of the tank. Then when the hot air enters the water tank it cools reducing it's volume thus it's bouyancy and we lose again. Apparently nobody understands basic thermodynamics well enough to have figured out that if all of the heat of compression from the air compressor was used to heat the water then the cool air entering the hot water tank must expand increasing it's volume thus it's buoyancy.
You see as is usually the case everyone has it all backwards but Victor Schauberger had it right -- "In every case do the opposite to whatever technology does today. Then you will always be on the right track".
Okay we have just solved the first part of the equation and the air compressor is no longer acting against it's own heat of compression and we have moved the heat of compression to the water so the air no longer contracts when it enters the water losing buoyancy but expands gaining buoyancy. Our next step is just as easy however it's going to take a little creative thinking on your part PhysicsProf. Now the critics would have us believe the only way to get air into the bottom of the water tank is to push or pump it in by force however they are for the most part clueless and not thinking clearly nor creatively. Should we just push or pump the air in by force without consideration or thought or are there other more graceful ways of doing this?.
I will give you a hint, Victor Schauberger figured out one way to cross the air/water boundary condition at the bottom of the tank with almost no real work involved about 100 years ago.
AC
regarding Rosch
Stefan has strong opinions but no verdict
here
http://www.overunity.com/15732/rosch-taking-orders-on-ou-bouyancy-device/msg448058/#new
So just where is the miracle?
The 4.8 kW demonstrator is made with a COTS generator and air compressor, up at the top. It's essentially a chain of buckets that float upwards through a 4 meter column of water when full of air, then they fill with water and are drawn downwards again, and it "runs" relatively slowly.
It's easy to calculate that there is nowhere near 4.8 kW of continuous power available from the buckets floating upward. Six and a half horsepower? No way Jose. And that's supposed to be _after_ the losses that come from dragging all those empty buckets down through the water, gear and chain and bearing losses, electrical losses, heat losses, etc.
http://www.overunity.com/15732/rosch-taking-orders-on-ou-bouyancy-device/msg448064/#msg448064
SO where is the miracle? How does all that extra power get into the system? Where does it enter?
Systems quite similar to this have been proposed and built many times. None has ever worked. So what would be the point of building _yet another_ one, with no idea of where the extra power is supposed to enter the system, that will also not work?
https://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/unwork.htm
https://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/themes/buoyant.htm
https://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/themes/bellows.htm
@AC: there are complete solutions of the entire problem, taking account the heat of compression and etc. available on the thread on overunity.de which discusses this ... thing.
Citing Viktor Schauberger's claims gets you nowhere without evidence that those claims were correct, and there is much evidence that many of them were not.
They appear to be using one of these type pumps:
http://www.alita.com/airpump/pi_250u_en.php
Note the working pressure. What is the water pressure at 4 meters depth? Somebody had better call Viktor Schauberger and ask him for some details.....
Quote from: Chet K on 2015.04.27, 00:22:27
http://www.overunity.com/15732/rosch-taking-orders-on-ou-bouyancy-device/msg448058/#new
Just had a read before late sleep...
Quote from: hartiberlin
I asked Mr. Reuter from Gaia to do this test to shut down the main power supply
of the whole building complex to see if it still works, but he got mad about me and just only called names...
That case can be closed, no power grid, no output from "FE" device it seems.
Cheers!
(deleted ...
waiting for more data from Germany)
As Hartiberlin wrote at OU earlier today:
QuoteWell lets just still wait a few days, until we will get more test reports from
more technical people. Until now we have only this one witness report
which was only somebody with not much technical knowledge.
At least we have a few first pictures...Quote
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2015.04.27, 01:49:57
(deleted ...
waiting for more data from Germany)
As Hartiberlin wrote at OU earlier today:
Yes I agree, lets wait and see what materialises, I wonder what happened to the Australian setup, which is of the same principle, maybe Tinman knows something or Ash!
regards
Mike 8)
@Mike
QuoteI wonder what happened to the Australian setup
It is strange, they all show very expensive setups in large facilities with expensive equipment. Some even have extensive documentation, patents and expensive third part testing and claim their just about ready to go into production then ...............their gone.
This would seem to be a similar pattern concerning all FE devices but I think we both know exactly what happens. The boy's in suits show up with contracts and brief cases full of money at which point those dreams of helping people turn into dreams of that mansion with all those expensive cars parked out front. If we needed a conspiracy to explain it I would call it human nature and the truth about us always seems to present itself at one point or another.
I'm not quite sure if I am for sale yet... I haven't quite made up my mind about that. My common sense say's this is a game I cannot win but on the other hand another part of me thinks they can kiss my ass.
AC
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrifice_%28chess%29
Quote from: evolvingape on 2015.04.27, 17:05:03
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrifice_%28chess%29
Yep been there and seen that.
Newman Tonks PLC tried everything to get my heat exchanger patent. They were deemed whiter than white on the stock exchange, but I knew better, they even put a sub company of theirs into liquidation to stop me suing them "Engineering concessionaires Ltd". That company stock was bought for a knock down price by the ex MD of that company, a very good friend of the chairman of NT PLC.
how strange ;)
One day I was at an exhibition in Birmingham, on the way to get my car, key in hand, in the parking lot, I passed a lovely Bently continental with NT 1 plates, not so cool I thought, he should have parked it in the VIP parking area so as not to have it scratched by the underlings ;)
regards
Mike 8)
Hey guys-what do you make of this device.
Would there be enough kinetic energy to overcome the pressure the liquid is exerting on the valve that is letting the balls pass through,but not letting the liquid flow out?. O0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGPEOlQ2_uA&feature=youtu.be
Quote from: Centraflow on 2015.04.27, 09:42:23
Yes I agree, lets wait and see what materialises, I wonder what happened to the Australian setup, which is of the same principle, maybe Tinman knows something or Ash!
regards
Mike 8)
Are you refering to the AECES/OPPEC setup-->the hidro+ unit?
Quote from: TinMan on 2015.05.01, 15:16:07
Are you refering to the AECES/OPPEC setup-->the hidro+ unit?
Not sure what it was called, can you give a link?
regards
mike 8)
Quote from: Centraflow on 2015.05.01, 15:23:27
Not sure what it was called, can you give a link?
regards
mike 8)
OHHH
MarkE is NOT going to be happy.
After all this time,it seems that a bouyancy generator has been running right under my nose here in OZ since 2010 O0. I have no idea as to why i had never heard of this device,as it's in my own country.
So a little info on it-->and i will get right onto the reserch part tomorrow-after i have had my beauty sleep.
It is located in Stapylton, Queensland, Australia. Testing was completed in December 2010. This is not a small fry job guy's.
Quote from Stantons International Securities-The Hidro+ Generators have been exhibited at UN COP15 in Copenhagen, Patents
published by WIPO in Geneva, and featured in the Queensland University of Technology (QUT) Cleantech Newsletter.
How it works
"This patented innovative technology is commonly referred to as hydrodynamic-cycle
technology for energy generation based on hydrostatic pressure gradients and
buoyancy. Through the use of four (4) natural energies of gravity, buoyancy, pressure
and gas density gradients are collectively engineered in a system to cause a free-fall
velocity of a large weight to ascend and descend in a continuous cycle to produce
electricity. O0 O0
Here are the issued patents--> PCT-AU2007/906961; AU2008/902488; AU2008/001888; AUS- PATENT2008/338258
Hidro+ Patents are published by World Intellectual Property Organisation [WIPO-
Geneva]
Publication number WO2009/0876727; and
World-wide national-phase stated in Section 7
Below is a picture of the actual running unit in Stapylton Australia.
I will dig up some more info on it tomorow.
Yeppppp that's the one, Ash did do a video on it when it was being demonstrated O0
I expect Mark E will wet his pants :D ;D
regards
Mike 8)
So i found the video's by panacea.
The first and last is about hidro,the rest is just environmental issues
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiRSgmnAQuY&list=PL15D7C82A4787AAD3&index=1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEev5SXt7CM&list=PL15D7C82A4787AAD3&index=2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxodjxi7ENs&list=PL15D7C82A4787AAD3&index=3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XQxZrHlc1s&index=4&list=PL15D7C82A4787AAD3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aYP-_WkPKk&index=5&list=PL15D7C82A4787AAD3
Density
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is about mass density. For other uses, see Density (disambiguation).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Density
The density, or more precisely, the volumetric mass density, of a substance is its mass per unit volume. The symbol most often used for density is ρ (the lower case Greek letter rho). Mathematically, density is defined as mass divided by volume:[1]
p = m/V
where ρ is the density, m is the mass, and V is the volume. In some cases (for instance, in the United States oil and gas industry), density is loosely defined as its weight per unit volume,[2] although this is scientifically inaccurate – this quantity is more specifically called specific weight.
For a pure substance the density has the same numerical value as its mass concentration. Different materials usually have different densities, and density may be relevant to buoyancy, purity and packaging. Osmium and iridium are the densest known elements at standard conditions for temperature and pressure but certain chemical compounds may be denser.
To simplify comparisons of density across different systems of units, it is sometimes replaced by the dimensionless quantity "relative density" or "specific gravity", i.e. the ratio of the density of the material to that of a standard material, usually water. Thus a relative density less than one means that the substance floats in water.
The density of a material varies with temperature and pressure. This variation is typically small for solids and liquids but much greater for gases. Increasing the pressure on an object decreases the volume of the object and thus increases its density. Increasing the temperature of a substance (with a few exceptions) decreases its density by increasing its volume. In most materials, heating the bottom of a fluid results in convection of the heat from the bottom to the top, due to the decrease in the density of the heated fluid. This causes it to rise relative to more dense unheated material.
The reciprocal of the density of a substance is occasionally called its specific volume, a term sometimes used in thermodynamics. Density is an intensive property in that increasing the amount of a substance does not increase its density; rather it increases its mass.
Gravitational acceleration
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Main article: Classical mechanics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_acceleration
In physics, gravitational acceleration is the acceleration on an object caused by force of gravitation. Neglecting friction such as air resistance, all small bodies accelerate in a gravitational field at the same rate relative to the center of mass.[1] This equality is true regardless of the masses or compositions of the bodies.
At different points on Earth, objects fall with an acceleration between 9.78 and 9.83 m/s2 depending on altitude and latitude, with a conventional standard value of exactly 9.80665 m/s2 (approx. 32.174 ft/s2). Objects with low densities do not accelerate as rapidly due to buoyancy and air resistance.
Buoyancy
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may [must] be challenged and removed! (July 2014)
The forces at work in buoyancy. Note that the object is floating because the upward force of buoyancy is equal to the downward force of gravity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buoyancy
In science, buoyancy (pronunciation: /ˈbɔɪ.ənᵗsi/[1][2] or /ˈbuːjənᵗsi/)[1][2] (also known as upthrust) is an upward force exerted by a fluid that opposes the weight of an immersed object. In a column of fluid, pressure increases with depth as a result of the weight of the overlying fluid. Thus a column of fluid, or an object submerged in the fluid, experiences greater pressure at the bottom of the column than at the top. This difference in pressure results in a net force that tends to accelerate an object upwards. The magnitude of that force is proportional to the difference in the pressure between the top and the bottom of the column, and (as explained by Archimedes' principle) is also equivalent to the weight of the fluid that would otherwise occupy the column, i.e. the displaced fluid.
For this reason, an object whose density is greater than that of the fluid in which it is submerged tends to sink. If the object is either less dense than the liquid or is shaped appropriately (as in a boat), the force can keep the object afloat. This can occur only in a reference frame which either has a gravitational field or is accelerating due to a force other than gravity defining a "downward" direction (that is, a non-inertial reference frame). In a situation of fluid statics, the net upward buoyancy force is equal to the magnitude of the weight of fluid displaced by the body.[3]
The center of buoyancy of an object is the centroid of the displaced volume of fluid.
Specific gravity
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not to be confused with specific weight.
This page is about the measurement using water as a reference. For a general use of specific gravity, see relative density. See intensive property for the property implied by "specific".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_gravity
Specific gravity is the ratio of the density of a substance to the density (mass of the same unit volume) of a reference substance. Apparent specific gravity is the ratio of the weight of a volume of the substance to the weight of an equal volume of the reference substance. The reference substance is nearly always water at its densest, (4°C) for liquids and for gases, air at room temperature, (21°C). That being stated temperature and pressure must be specified for both the sample and the reference. Pressure is nearly always 1 atm equal to 101.325 kPa. Temperatures for both sample and reference vary from industry to industry. In British beer brewing practice the specific gravity as specified above is multiplied by 1000.[1] Specific gravity is commonly used in industry as a simple means of obtaining information about the concentration of solutions of various materials such as brines, hydrocarbons, sugar solutions (syrups, juices, honeys, brewers wort, must etc.) and acids.
Relative density
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_density
Relative density, or specific gravity,[1][2] is the ratio of the density (mass of a unit volume) of a substance to the density of a given reference material. Specific gravity usually means relative density with respect to water. The term "relative density" is often preferred in modern scientific usage.
If a substance's relative density is less than one then it is less dense than the reference; if greater than 1 then it is denser than the reference. If the relative density is exactly 1 then the densities are equal; that is, equal volumes of the two substances have the same mass. If the reference material is water then a substance with a relative density (or specific gravity) less than 1 will float in water. For example, an ice cube, with a relative density of about 0.91, will float. A substance with a relative density greater than 1 will sink.
Temperature and pressure must be specified for both the sample and the reference. Pressure is nearly always 1 atm equal to 101.325 kPa. Where it is not, it is more usual to specify the density directly. Temperatures for both sample and reference vary from industry to industry. In British brewing practice the specific gravity as specified above is multiplied by 1000.[3] Specific gravity is commonly used in industry as a simple means of obtaining information about the concentration of solutions of various materials such as brines, sugar solutions (syrups, juices, honeys, brewers wort, must, etc.) and acids.
Now.. THINK! O0
Re Gaia Bouyancy device.
What really gets me is the realization that this is truly free energy. ... since 0% goes to making the floats move, there is 0 energy input that applies to generating output.
Yes, energy is input, but it all goes to causing displacement, and none at all to making the floats move.
The higher the device, the more floats floating at a time, the more power that is available, and the greater the COP... even accounting for increased pressure requirement.
I think maybe if I use normal bicycle chain, and drill a small hole through one side of one link, and make a short standoff, with a single hole through it that's the same diameter as the single chain link plate, I can slightly melt it into the plastic slightly and just attach the end caps to bot sides... Oh but then the head of a bolt or whatever is in the gap and will still interfere with the sprocket... maybe there's enough depth to make the head counter-sunk...
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla
"Money does not represent such a value as men have placed upon it. All my money has been invested into experiments with which I have made new discoveries enabling mankind to have a little easier life."
"Let the future tell the truth and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I really worked, is mine"
"When I understood the task, it was not with a resolve such as men often make. With me it was a sacred vow, a question of life and death. I knew that I would perish if I failed. Now I felt that the battle was won. Back in the deep recesses of the brain was the solution, but I could net yet give it outward expression."
"So we find that the three possible solutions of the great problem of increasing human energy are answered by the three words: food, peace, work. Many a year I have thought and pondered, lost myself in speculations and theories, considering man as a mass moved by a force, viewing his inexplicable movement in the light of a mechanical one, and applying the simple principles of mechanics to the analysis of the same until I arrived at these solutions, only to realize that they were taught to me in my early childhood. These three words sound the key-notes of the Christian religion. Their scientific meaning and purpose now clear to me: food to increase the mass, peace to diminish the retarding force, and work to increase the force accelerating human movement. These are the only three solutions which are possible of that great problem, and all of them have one object, one end, namely, to increase human energy. When we recognize this, we cannot help wondering how profoundly wise and scientific and how immensely practical the Christian religion is, and in what a marked contrast it stands in this respect to other religions. It is unmistakably the result of practical experiment and scientific observation which have extended through the ages, while other religions seem to be the outcome of merely abstract reasoning. Work, untiring effort, useful and accumulative, with periods of rest and recuperation aiming at higher efficiency, is its chief and ever-recurring command. Thus we are inspired both by Christianity and Science to do our utmost toward increasing the performance of mankind. This most important of human problems I shall now specifically consider."
Here's the issue for us. Can we build one. Because if not it means very little to us. All that will happen is that the electricity company will get cheaper electricity not necessarily us. Since it's been running for a few years now and the only reason the electricity bills dropped was when the carbon tax was revoked.
As long as someone else has the device they can charge others that don't have it what ever they please. Funny how there is not a lot more of them already.There can only be a limited number of reasons why not more of them already. One reason is the cost to build and maintain does not justify the output. Peoples energy is required to build and maintain them and peoples energy is expensive.
My take on it when it came public was that it is big expensive and takes maintenance, but the relative output is small compared to size and cost ect. Even conventional free energy does cost to buy and maintain. Wind powered generators get worn and broken, solar panels also get broken. They kind of need to be insured here in the tropics. Insurance is an ongoing cost after purchase maybe a tax write off if for business.
.
Hopefully the company will open source the setup. might be difficult to hide one in every house yard. We only need about 5-8 kw devices.
..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weight
Weight
In science and engineering, the weight of an object is usually taken to be the force on the object due to gravity.[1][2] Weight is a vector whose magnitude (a scalar quantity), often denoted by an italic letter W, is the product of the mass m of the object and the magnitude of the local gravitational acceleration g;[3] thus: W = mg. The unit of measurement for weight is that of force, which in the International System of Units (SI) is the newton. For example, an object with a mass of one kilogram has a weight of about 9.8 newtons on the surface of the Earth, and about one-sixth as much on the Moon. In this sense of weight, a body can be weightless only if it is far away (in principle infinitely far away) from any other mass. Although weight and mass are scientifically distinct quantities, the terms are often confused with each other in everyday discourse.[4]
There is also a rival tradition within Newtonian physics and engineering which sees weight as that which is measured when one uses scales. There the weight is a measure of the magnitude of the reaction force exerted on a body. Typically, in measuring an object's weight, the object is placed on scales at rest with respect to the earth, but the definition can be extended to other states of motion. Thus in a state of free fall, the weight would be zero. In this second sense of weight, terrestrial objects can be weightless. Ignoring air resistance, the famous apple falling from the tree, on its way to meet the ground near Isaac Newton, is weightless.
Further complications in elucidating the various concepts of weight have to do with the theory of relativity according to which gravity is modelled as a consequence of the curvature of spacetime. In the teaching community, a considerable debate has existed for over half a century on how to define weight for their students. The current situation is that a multiple set of concepts co-exist and find use in their various contexts.[2]
Operational definition
In the operational definition, the weight of an object is the force measured by the operation of weighing it, which is the force it exerts on its support.[7] This can make a considerable difference, depending on the details; for example, an object in free fall exerts little if any force on its support, a situation that is commonly referred to as weightlessness. However, being in free fall does not affect the weight according to the gravitational definition. Therefore, the operational definition is sometimes refined by requiring that the object be at rest.[citation needed] However, this raises the issue of defining "at rest" (usually being at rest with respect to the Earth is implied by using standard gravity[citation needed]). In the operational definition, the weight of an object at rest on the surface of the Earth is lessened by the effect of the centrifugal force from the Earth's rotation.
The operational definition, as usually given, does not explicitly exclude the effects of buoyancy, which reduces the measured weight of an object when it is immersed in a fluid such as air or water. As a result, a floating balloon or an object floating in water might be said to have zero weight.
217 PSI = 500 feet of head
http://extraconversion.com/pressure/feet-of-head/feet-of-head-to-pounds-per-square-inch.html
500 feet of head = 152 metres
http://www.convertunits.com/from/feet+head/to/meter+of+head
152 metres depth = 236 PSI pressure at depth
http://www.calctool.org/CALC/other/games/depth_press
hhop gen 2 has been demonstrated to be gas pressure stable in excess of 217 PSI. Gas displacement accumulator mode is capable of displacing (pumping) a chamber of hydraulic water (liquid) empty at a depth that is directly related to stable gas pressure. Normalisation of system specific gravity energy will then occur raising plastic hhop to the surface. A compressed charge of hho now exists in the chamber which is at the surface, or the liquid / gas boundary within the gravitational field. A significant percentage of the hho can be removed automatically from the chamber in a stable fashion which is the system product (fuel). The remaining reduced hho charge in the chamber can now be combusted (phase changed) creating a relative vacuum and refilling the d/c chamber with water.. plastic hhop then sinks and then the cycle repeats.
Work can be extracted from the environment via the gas production phase of the process, and further work can be done by the fuel which has been produced for use in an additional process.
I have no hope of determining how much work per hour could be achieved from a unit that size. It would need to be significant to compete with a hybrid wind and solar arrangement. If we were to average it out over 20 years for the cost and the output.
Can anyone give a guesstimate of how small of a unit could be made and how much output could be expected from a given size unit ?
I've come to the conclusion that when it comes to wind powered generators in area's prone to very strong winds or storms that several smaller units that could be easily lowered down and better secured in the event of a cyclone or bad storms approaching would be much better than one large one. Tall stuff gets blown down. Seems like it might be one for the companies.
In my opinion home gathered energy is the key to being energy independent.
Quote from: Farmhand on 2015.05.04, 01:56:30
Can anyone give a guesstimate of how small of a unit could be made and how much output could be expected from a given size unit ?
Yes I think that could be done but requires quite an investment of resources, I do not have the data to guesstimate it beyond ratios.
Quote from: Farmhand on 2015.05.04, 01:56:30
In my opinion home gathered energy is the key to being energy independent.
Environmental energy farming.. dig a bore hole fill it with water, insert a sleeve generator. Harvest gravitational specific gravity differentials, produce a fuel product output, and all powered by the sun prime mover. Turn the deserts green.
Could it be that Tewari has at last succeeded in producing
more output with a generator than is required to "prime
move" it? (http://www.zengardner.com/india-wont-suppress-tewaris-free-energy-generator/)
Quote from: muDped on 2015.09.26, 21:12:15
Could it be that Tewari has at last succeeded in producing
more output with a generator than is required to "prime move" it? (http://www.zengardner.com/india-wont-suppress-tewaris-free-energy-generator/)
Who knows ? Until it is independantly replicated or he gives a device away for independant testing and it is reported with integrity it has no merit, just another rabbit hole it seems..
I'd like to hear erfinder's take, particularly to this document:
Quote from: evolvingape on 2015.05.04, 16:14:42
Yes I think that could be done but requires quite an investment of resources, I do not have the data to guesstimate it beyond ratios.Environmental energy farming.. dig a bore hole fill it with water, insert a sleeve generator. Harvest gravitational specific gravity differentials, produce a fuel product output, and all powered by the sun prime mover. Turn the deserts green.
Just noticed the part highlighted in bold, I had not released hhop gen 3 at that point so no mention of Gravitational energy harvesting in the post! How things change..
@evolvingape
QuoteWho knows ? Until it is independantly replicated or he gives a device away for independant testing and it is reported with integrity it has no merit, just another rabbit hole it seems..
I think it all has merit and some of my best new idea's were inspired by things which never worked. The trick here is understanding why something does not work in order to understand how something else could. I always found this notion in your post strange, if I had a working device but didn't tell anyone or have it independently tested by others then does this mean it doesn't work even if it does?. My greatest insight came when I understood I am not the center of the universe and there is infinitely more that I do not know than I know. Therefore anything may be possible...how could I know or possibly understand what I do not know?... It's all Rabbit Holes.
It's also strange that more people don't understand the Rabbit hole we live...were all going to die. One way or another this game will eventually end and the only thing which will remain is the memory of how we played it. I choose to be positive, that's my game, because life is too short to blame others for our own deficiencies. Work with it, leave it better than you found it and at some point share right or wrong.
AC
Quote from: Allcanadian on 2015.09.27, 16:12:14
@evolvingape
I always found this notion in your post strange, if I had a working device but didn't tell anyone or have it independently tested by others then does this mean it doesn't work even if it does?.
AC
Sphere of influence (astrodynamics)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphere_of_influence_%28astrodynamics%29
A sphere of influence (SOI) in astrodynamics and astronomy is the oblate-spheroid-shaped region around a celestial body where the primary gravitational influence on an orbiting object is that body. This is usually used to describe the areas in the Solar System where planets dominate the orbits of surrounding objects (such as moons), despite the presence of the much more massive (but distant) Sun. In a more general sense, the patched conic approximation is only valid within the SOI.
Fascinating video by Woopy (Laurent) --
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAx7Y0UIyHA&feature=em-uploademail
What makes the tungsten melt? He's right - seems that more power than 72 watts is needed to do this...
I'm still interested in Woopy's vid (above post) - very curious, but he seems to have dropped that line of research.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAx7Y0UIyHA&feature=em-uploademail
Interested in Lasersaber's joule-thief flowing for 12 hours on a smallish cap - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5EXisVd9Xs&feature=em-uploademail
Does either have an update, I wonder?
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2016.07.11, 20:13:16
Interested in Lasersaber's joule-thief flowing for 12 hours on a smallish cap - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5EXisVd9Xs&feature=em-uploademail
Does either have an update, I wonder?
Apache Ong improved FLEET with resonance, better transistors and capacitors. He now works for Tesla Motors that has the Powewall product. His early 1KW unit in April, 2012, is reproduced here. The Powerwall can store and generate 7.5KW.
The theory or belief is that his unit not only brings-in sunlight but also other electromagnetic waves surrounding us.
Quote from: ltseung888 on 2016.07.12, 00:13:49
The theory or belief is that his unit not only brings-in sunlight but also other electromagnetic waves surrounding us.
Is there anything written up on that last theory? that we could read?
On another note - this today on the front page of FoxNews on-line:
http://video.foxnews.com/v/5035540236001/mysterious-object-appears-moments-before-nasa-live-feed-ends/?#sp=show-clips
Its curious in that it glows before hitting the atmosphere (evidently), and
suspicious that NASA turned off the live-feed when the object appears to enter the atmosphere.
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2016.07.15, 11:46:45
Is there anything written up on that last theory? that we could read?
On another note - this today on the front page of FoxNews on-line:
http://video.foxnews.com/v/5035540236001/mysterious-object-appears-moments-before-nasa-live-feed-ends/?#sp=show-clips
Its curious in that it glows before hitting the atmosphere (evidently), and
suspicious that NASA turned off the live-feed when the object appears to enter the atmosphere.
http://overunity.com/15077/ufo-propu-engine-closed-loop/msg488102/#msg488102
The theory actually goes back to examining the Milkovic 2SO...
If Aliens can build UFOs, what is stopping Humans...