https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEqSuTOKUEg
all info and comments welcome
thx
Chet
On the site www.gdstechnologies.ca (http://www.gdstechnologies.ca) some of the engrich is off.
When ever I see this the red flags go up.
Otherwise pretty intriguing.
The only thing running the unit is the unit ???
I think he meant-the only thing running the unit is the two very large batteries that are supplying the power to the two inverters-1x 120v 3000watt,and 1x 240v-who knows how many watts?
The 3000 watt unit is to small to run 1 aircon unit,but the 5000watt model will run 3 aircon unit's ;)
It looks like a water cooling fan that is attached to the water tank,and that seems to be the only thing attached to the water tank.So yea,the water will last 4 day's as it's only for the water cooled fan-evaporative cooling fan.
I see lots of other goodies in there as well,some of which don't seemed to be hooked up :o :D
The same result's could be had from just two batteries and an inverter-but green is nice. ;)
Dont ask me why the pictures were posted twice in the last post ???
Skepticism is quite expected, with so little info given...
But they are selling a DEVICE.
Chet, you're very good at getting info via phone - O0
I'd like to know:
1. Asking innocently, how often does one need to re-charge the batteries?
2. What is the cost of the GDS 3000 unit?
3. What is the smallest unit they sell (watts output) and how much does it cost?
4. Is there any kind of full-satisfaction guarantee, like one-week or anything? (so a guy could try it out...)
5. Is there tax for a guy purchasing for the United States?
6. Can someone come look at it?
7. Any video of the thing running at say 15kW (the big one) for several hours non-stop?
8. Does the 15kW unit have more batteries inside it, than the 3kW unit? what is the big difference between the two?
9. Do they need anyone to help sell these in the US?
10. Can they disclose the name of at least one satisfied customer? (preferably in the US...)
I'll be ringing them on Monday.
we shall see?
thx
Chet
So they are actually claiming that it IS the water that powers the generator. If you buy this generator,and find that it is not the water that power's the generator,then you would be entitled to a full refund,and then file a law suit against them for false advertising.
Quote from there web site--GDS is a manufacturing company in renewable energy. We have developed a portable water powered generator that creates a large amount of energy to run our portable generators that generate power simply by adding water. Spending money on expensive gasoline is a thing of the past. We have found a way to produce energy by adding clean tap water.
Cool-where do i sign up. O0
Quote from: TinMan on 2014.10.26, 05:32:04
Cool-where do i sign up. O0
I water cooled QMoGen aay?
Just when I thought I had seen everything...
Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014.10.26, 06:14:11
I water cooled QMoGen aay?
Just when I thought I had seen everything...
Im sure there's better to come yet Matt.
Maybe a space time modulated QMoGen ;D
Quote from: TinMan on 2014.10.26, 06:18:02
Maybe a space time modulated QMoGen ;D
(http://open-source-energy.org/assets/smileys/mybb/rofl2.gif)
I have taken a couple of screen shots of there brochure-->just for future reference(and if some one needs it for lawsuit purposes)
Hi there :)
I just noticed this thread and had quick look.
In the filmed box I do not see any engine running on water, the rest of circuit looks is standard alternator->charger->batery->inverter->motor->AC generator setup.
So I would stay skeptical until someone can show the engine running on water under water tank... ;)
Cheers!
Hmmmm don't know what to say C.C
Well here is my take for what it is worth ;)
We have a motor driving a water compressor (that's the silver thingy that looks like a generator and is driven by the motor)
We have a generator (photo thanks to T-1000) which is connected to bottom of water tank
We have a water tank which was seen when lid removed, had a lot of water condensation or splashing on it, I think mainly water splashing for my thinking ;D
What is not seen is what is the generator connected to, my take a turbine, after all it was mentioned "turbine". This being in the bottom of the tank and the reason for the water on the lid and the need for water cooling, (the fan on the tank).
We have two inverters, one is 3kw and it seems the other is 2 or 3kw, now is that to make up the 5kw unit? Hmmm. or 110v and 220v anyway that part is of no importance, the important thing is what is powering the generator?
Last of all if I was to scam then I would not show my face, would you? or is he just stupid ;D
I could go on with more, but, this just could be a load of BS so why bother C.C
Rings like the water wheel setup chet knows about and was a member of OU.com O0 but using a water turbine to convert the pressure from the water compressor, OU? you tell me :D
regards
Mike 8)
Attached is some higher resolution images of the box.
Now if this is not a fake,
then:
The tank holds water and a electrolysis cell producing approx. 5 liters of HHO per minute.
The tank has a cooling fan mounted to keep the water cool.
The first unit is a 10 Hp micro-turbine motor that drives a DC generator.
The DC generator is connected to a charge regulator that have two large dump resistors.
The charge regulator is connected to the batteries.
The batteries is connected to two inverters, one for 110VAC and one for 240VAC output.
If it IS a fake,
then:
Forget this post.
GL.
Quote from: giantkiller on 2014.10.26, 02:38:40
On the site www.gdstechnologies.ca (http://www.gdstechnologies.ca) some of the engrich is off.
When ever I see this the red flags go up.
Otherwise pretty intriguing.
Yes, it pains me. Now twice embarrassed to be Canadian, the other was that Richard idiot.
Surely there is a catch? Did he forget to mention that you have to recharge the batteries as well as add water? C.C
Too bad comments were disabled on Youtube.
Even if this unit was producing excess HHO, how would it supposedly be converted to electricity to drive the motor?
Do I see wires haphazardly run behind the fan mounted on the tank? :o
It almost appears they are wrapped around it.
From their FAQ:
Q: I thought you need a running stream or a pond or river to create this amount of energy?
A: Yes you are correct however with the setup of many coils and magnets make up for the amount of energy required for each application.
Sounds like Richard incarnate. C.C
I'ves sent them an email asking if they are kidding. ;)
Quote from: poynt99 on 2014.10.26, 12:19:30
Even if this unit was producing excess HHO, how would it supposedly be converted to electricity to drive the motor?
If it is not a fake:
What electric motor? There is a mini turbine MOTOR that runs on HHO driving the electric generator.
In the video (when filming under the unit) you can see water dripping, from the exhaust port.
GL.
Quote from: poynt99 on 2014.10.26, 12:28:46
Do I see wires haphazardly run behind the fan mounted on the tank? :o
It almost appears they are wrapped around it.
If it is not a fake:
The wires goes to the electrolysis cell inside the tank. A small tube can also be seen
coming out of the tank. This tube goes to the mini turbine motor that runs on HHO.
GL.
Can you point out the tube?
If that is a fan, then it must NOT be getting used, as clearly those wires are rubbing on the edge of that flywheel.
Why are there wires coming from the motor if it is not an electric motor?
Don't read too much into that water drip. It could be that the tank is leaking or spillage after he lifted the lid.
I think the notion that the motor is a turbine is a bit of a stretch. :) If someone could produce a picture of one that looks similar and clearly states what it is, I might have a change of opinion.
Quote from: poynt99 on 2014.10.26, 12:42:40
Can you point out the tube?
If that is a fan, then it must NOT be getting used, as clearly those wires are rubbing on the edge of that flywheel.
Why are there wires coming from the motor if it is not an electric motor?
99,
I did look at the video again, and what I saw as a tube is maybe a wire.
The fan is not running in the video, but the generator is running, so you
may be right, the fan is not used.
A micro turbine motor needs electric power to be started and to run.
That said, without any detail information, then your guesses is a good as mine.
GL.
Easy way to find out is just buy one,as it comes with a money back warranty.If it is not powered by water as stated,then you will get your money back. You will also know exactly how it work's and if it is fake or not.Probably cost me an arm and leg to get one sent to OZ-dose anyone live close enough for a pickup?
Quote from: poynt99 on 2014.10.26, 13:03:41
Don't read too much into that water drip. It could be that the tank is leaking or spillage after he lifted the lid.
I think the notion that the motor is a turbine is a bit of a stretch. :)
99,
I said clearly in my posts that "if it is not a fake", so I'm guessing how a generator system must be designed if I wanted to buil it.
GL.
Quote from: Groundloop on 2014.10.26, 13:06:07
99,
I said clearly in my posts that "if it is not a fake", so I'm guessing how a generator system must be designed if I wanted to buil it.
GL.
Problem is GL,there are that many fakes these day's that the real deal could just pass us on bye,and we'd be none the wiser.
Unfortunately, these nut cases are at the other end of the country, so it would cost a fortune to have it shipped. Why is it these guys all come from the east? (Canada that is) :P
I guess I could always fly there and ask for a 4 day demo.
I wonder how long a 1kW (110VAC) load could be run from 2 100Ahr batteries?
My estimate is about 3 hours.
So with a 1000W load, it would only take about 4 hours to determine if the unit was real or not. Agreed?
Quote from: poynt99 on 2014.10.26, 13:25:21
My estimate is about 3 hours.
So with a 1000W load, it would only take about 4 hours to determine if the unit was real or not. Agreed?
I would say a little less,as the 3000 watt inverters draw around 2 amps on standby. Also they would cut out when the batteries hit around 12.5 volt's-- well mine do anyway. 4 hours would be a good run indeed,as there is also that electric motor thats driving that what ever it is,useing up some power as well.
If this unit was for real,then the ramifications would reach far greater than just a generator that runs on water. This would have to be an over Faraday HHO system,and we know what that means O0
Well
I know its Sunday [here] they are not answering the phone,
but they don't yet have a phone answering setup.
will report tomorrow what they have to say.[if they answer the phone]
thx
Chet
The "fan looking" unit mounted on the water tank is probably a PMA.
See here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/PMA-Generator-with-Pelton-Wheel-for-Water-Power-0-240-VAC-4000-Watt-Micro-Hydro-/201082043553 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/PMA-Generator-with-Pelton-Wheel-for-Water-Power-0-240-VAC-4000-Watt-Micro-Hydro-/201082043553)
GL.
Good find GL
That's one hell of a PMA "4kw @ 240v"
Well I got part of it right ;D
Now have to find that pressure pump "the silver looking item", it is the type they use in a karcher pressure system, they are quite small for the pressure they give, I'm sure it would drive that PMA @ 240v 4kw
regards
Mike 8)
Quote from: Centraflow on 2014.10.26, 18:57:40
Good find GL
That's one hell of a PMA "4kw @ 240v"
Well I got part of it right ;D
Now have to find that pressure pump "the silver looking item", it is the type they use in a karcher pressure system, they are quite small for the pressure they give, I'm sure it would drive that PMA @ 240v 4kw
regards
Mike 8)
Centraflow,
I'm looking for the water pressure pump right now, no luck so far finding it.
I think the pressure pump is mounted onto the tank also. Look at the left
side of the img01.jpg that I did post. The pump can also be the silver
color unit at the left (bottom) in the image "img03.jpg".
GL.
Guy's, what is wrong here as far as pressure/rpm of generator with an output 240v 4kw, in relation to a pressure pump running off 12v (60w) creating 6Lpm @ 120psi :D which is more than enough to drive the generator? that would mean we have OU :D :D :D
Now I am really stumped ;D
regards
Mike 8)
PS check the figures yourself
GL it's the silver thing with a square box on the outer end (that's the pump), well I think it is!!
regards
Mike 8)
Quote from: Centraflow on 2014.10.26, 19:27:49
GL it's the silver thing with a square box on the outer end (that's the pump), well I think it is!!
regards
Mike 8)
Mike,
Can't find it on the net, but still searching.............
GL.
Dear All.
Is this GL's Pelton wheel ?
Perhaps the reason behind it's water consumption is the simple fact that it leaks a little during operation ?
Cheers Grum.
Admin: Converted that 6M file to 600k. ;)
Quote from: Groundloop on 2014.10.26, 18:26:37
The "fan looking" unit mounted on the water tank is probably a PMA.
See here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/PMA-Generator-with-Pelton-Wheel-for-Water-Power-0-240-VAC-4000-Watt-Micro-Hydro-/201082043553 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/PMA-Generator-with-Pelton-Wheel-for-Water-Power-0-240-VAC-4000-Watt-Micro-Hydro-/201082043553)
GL.
Another unused component just to make it look good?
btw, add maybe another; in front of the belt and near the tank is another motor.
Poynt:
QuoteMy estimate is about 3 hours.
So with a 1000W load, it would only take about 4 hours to determine if the unit was real or not. Agreed?
Agreed, preferably with video taping constantly being taken for 4 hours or so... e.g., overlapping camcorders (at least two). Good test. Live feed would be awesome!
Sterling has a page on this at PESN, and I understand he is planning a trip up there...
PS -- Tinman is right = let's just buy one, test it, return for refund if we don't like it.
I mean, a guy could fly up there, test it in his motel room?
Toronto, right? is there a street address?
I think I can spring for $3K right now... for the gds 3000, yes. Proof of principle is what I seek (first).
Been saving sheckels.
Chet keep that in mind.
PS - lotsa fun if it works, but hey, why not take the trip?
PS2 - Sterling's PESN article is likely to generate a LOT of calls to gds this coming few days...
From PESN article (today, 26 Oct):
QuoteCompiled by Sterling D. Allan
Pure Energy Systems News
October 26, 2014
Wow, it looks like the day has finally come that we get to make the big announcement that one of the exotic free energy generators has made it to market. Patrick Flanagan, who just purchased a 5kW system, brought this one to our attention.
GDS Technologies LTD, out of Ontario, Canada, has a water-powered, portable genset available for sale on their website, in output sizes of 5 kW, 10 kW and 15 kW, at a price of around $1000/kW. They say they can also custom build these in sizes up to 50 kW. It is controlled by a simple on/off switch.
It is much less than half as loud as a gasoline or diesel genset of the same power output. One tank of water (e.g. 4 gallons for the 5 kW) will run the device for three days; or you can hook a hose up to it (there is a check valve), and not worry about refilling the tank. It emits no pollution, no fumes, so it can be run indoors.
They will ship globally. The 15-day money-back guarantee doesn't include duties and shipping fees. "Please allow up to 14 business days," for shipping probably refers to Canadian orders. International probably takes more.
Let them know PES referred you, for a likely discount and commission for PES. (We've requested this relationship and are waiting to hear back. Wouldn't hurt to mention it.)
Their Alibaba listing for their GDS 3000 system says they have 400 in stock.
Actually, I'm surprised we've not heard of them before now. Their YouTube video has been up since September 7, with over 2000 visits, and their Facebook page was first populated with news about this on August 24.
They list their devices as suitable for applications such as emergency back-up power, camping, motor homes, construction sites; so I presume they haven't gone through UL or CE hoops yet to allow home power generation without jeopardizing home warranties, etc. In one of our Facebook comments, Kenneth Segovia says: "Can you imagine putting something like this in the Tesla car?"
It seems they've been very conscientious in their design, putting in safety features (circuit breakers and emergency stop button), redundancy (e.g. 2 batteries instead of one, to start it up).
Maintenance involves draining the water tank and spraying it with a garden hose every 3 months. The water needs to be clean that it runs on, and not salt water.
As for running it, they say: "When you receive your new portable water generator just add 4 gallons of normal water in the tank and turn the red toggle switch to on position (emergency safety) that will start the battery and pump and turbine all at once. That easy. All units have been tested before leaving our facility. Instruction and warranty manuals will be supplied with every unit sold."
If you are thinking of powering your house with one of these, you need to realize that it is not yet UL / CE certified, so you could be voiding your home warranty. For emergency back-up, you'll want to make sure that you have a toggle switch to shut off from the grid completely when running the power from the genset into your service panel. If you're doing only small loads, you could plug your genset into a wall plug, through a male-male connector, which will power up one of the two legs of the service panel; then run an extension cord to another wall power plug from the other leg of the service panel, and the entire panel will be powered. Again, make sure you're disconnected from the grid if you do this so you don't jeopardize any linemen. Bear in mind that the wires going to that wall plug are 12 or 14 gauge, and limited to maybe 15 amps, so you'll not want to surpass that in the load you draw elsewhere in the house, or you'll trip the circuit breaker. You could double this limit by plugging into two separate circuits through the wall plugs, such as from two different rooms -- ditto for the other leg of the service panel.
After we get some kind of validation that this is for real, we'll be bumping it to #1 in our Top 5 listing.
Contents [hide]
1 Official Websites
2 Products
2.1 GDS 5000
2.2 GDS 10000
2.3 GDS 15000
2.4 INTERNATIONAL WARRANTY
3 Videos
3.1 Portable Generator Runs on Water!!
4 Correspondence
5 Historic Milestones
5.1 First Facebook Entry
6 Patents
7 In the News
8 Contact
9 See also
Is it really possable that this had some Merritt :o
I see no way this could ever work,or are we being too quick to dismiss the all so simple :-\
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LckOcHJ7r8Y
Quote from: TinMan on 2014.10.26, 23:14:42
Is it really possable that this had some Merritt :o
I see no way this could ever work,or are we being too quick to dismiss the all so simple :-\
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LckOcHJ7r8Y
Yes thats the one I was on about O0
regards
Mike 8)
Quote from: poynt99 on 2014.10.26, 13:15:42
Unfortunately, these nut cases are at the other end of the country, so it would cost a fortune to have it shipped. Why is it these guys all come from the east? (Canada that is) :P
I guess I could always fly there and ask for a 4 day demo.
I wonder how long a 1kW (110VAC) load could be run from 2 100Ahr batteries?
It would seem poynt that only one battery is hooked to the inverter. The battery on the right that has a thin white wire that dose a loop around that white block looking thing,seems to end up at what we think are the two load resistor's. The other thing we think is another inverter(the blue one)that has 2000 0n it,could infact be a 2000 watt charge controller :-\
But defiantly only one battery used on the inverter.
The proposed test would still be valid. ;)
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2014.10.26, 23:04:35
From PESN article (today, 26 Oct):
Trust Sterling.
The blokes worse than a ruddy seagull. Anything he thinks will make him a buck he onto like lightning.
I suppose we'll see if they have any ready for sale and when we can see them?
Not really that far away from them myself.[8hr drive]
Will report back tomorrow.
thx
Chet
I would not trust anything Stirling is claiming.....He is no different then a con man...
Tommey
seems this works Alah James Hardy's water pump tech, at least that is the only apparent MO of the Device up to this point .
I know you have been playing with the same tech recently.
We shall see ?
thx
Chet
So what do we have so far?
Seems to me that we have one motor driving a PMA(the silver colored device that looks like a motor)) The other motor is driving a water pump that is driving the 3 phase pelton generator.
1 battery that is hooked to the inverters(we'll call this battery 1),and the second battery(battery 2) go's through the emergency cut off switch to the solenoid via the light gauge white wire..I think when the emergency cut off switch is hit,the power from battery 1 is disconnected from the inverter's,and the power from the pelton generator is sent to the load dump resisters via the solenoid until the pelton generator spins down to a stop. The power from the PMA may also be sent to the load dump resistors at this time?. But which generator is charging the batteries,and which is supplying the AC output,as it would seem that the two inverters are supplying the power to each motor. Both the PMA and pelton generator seem to be 3 phase,although i see 6 wires coming from the PMA :-\
If this is a fake,then looking at there web site and the guarantee they give with the unit,they have just got them self a one way ticket to the courthouse.
Quote from: Tommey Reed on 2014.10.27, 02:00:25
I would not trust anything Stirling is claiming.....He is no different then a con man...
Stirling is a clear nut job. He's been booted by his wife,and now by his church.The bloke even said he was god's chosen one on one of the smartscarecrow show's.
http://www.greaterthings.com/News/2014/10/23/2392525_LDS-Church_bans_Sterling-Allan_from_all_LDS-Properties_for_participating-in_Sunday-School/
When Stirling decided to get his hands dirty with his HHO thermal experiments, I was really hoping he'd dig in and continue to learn this stuff and become a normal fellow like the rest of us. Short lived. Instead he got a radio show on Jeff Rense's network and went right back to where he was before.
I spent a fair amount of time with him in Boulder and he seems like a decent guy--a bit shorter than I expected. :)
It's hard to tell what really drives him day to day. He's definitely on a hunting mission, but has such an open mind that most anything can captivate his attention.
Still, he's a good guy to have in your address book. If you are looking for an old contact in this business, chances are good Sterling has it.
Quote from: EMdevices on 2014.10.27, 06:46:36
That's an interesting insight into his life that I never knew. I read the whole page and I sympathize with him, and wish him happiness, which can be so rare these days. He's an independent thinker for sure, and in matters of religion, the leaders always get upset when a laymen speaks out and challenges their views. He needs a support group and we need to encourage him, it's not easy to be excommunicated from the church you love and grew up in. Just watch "breaking Amish" and see what fear of excommunication they have.
I too read the whole page,and have witnessed much more than that page tell's. When you say things like! i was sent by god to lead! you need help alright.I have had first hand dealings with Stirling,and it wasn't pretty -ask Mark Dansie how honest Stirling is. I also read what looks like a threat toward the church-Quote: i have millions of followers. MILLIONS you say C.C
I see nothing more than a delusional man that will endorse anything that can make him a quick buck.
He needs help alright EM,but not the sort your thinking of. Do a little research -dig a little deeper.
HI All,
I know enough about Stirling to know that he can't be trusted.
I have seen this guy on Smartscrarecrow Show make more claims to make stupid people believe just about anything.
He is the Dennie Lee, Paul Pantones and snake oil salesman. I recall a few years back that he took investor money I believe it was 60k to Africa to by a self running motor permanent magnet motor. He did not buy the motor, but did use the money to buy a house.
I know enough about him to not trust anything he claims, I personally talked to him on the phone a few years back wanted my patented rotary engine to make money on it. I even ask this guy to remove my viideos from his web site, which he did not do.
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Tommey_Reed_External_Combustion_Engine
This is another reason I closed many YouTube accounts because of him stealing my video's to make his web site more interesting.
Stirling is a wacko, his God is money let's not for get this.
God in not interested in man made things, he more interested in you not going to hell that started with the love of money!
Stirling has a history of taking investors money, be careful you can be next!
Tom
Hi All,
Where should I start on this scam?
This is what I see and understanding how electrical power is made.
The batteries run the dc motor that turns a permanent magnet generator also known as a mechanical transformer.
I seen two inverters, a 2000 watt and another one above the inside panel.
The cheap design in the outside panel looks to be made with a simple handsaw where the cuts are not even good.
This is just a box on wheel with all types of bells & whistles to mislead others. Two batteries are where the true power come from to power the inverters.
The water tank is another way to take people eyes off the details, like eye candy.
I would say this is a scam, no way you can create HHO or steam to power this system.
That's my opinion!
Tom.
Quote from: Grumage on 2014.10.26, 20:36:41
Dear All.
Is this GL's Pelton wheel ?
Perhaps the reason behind it's water consumption is the simple fact that it leaks a little during operation ?
Cheers Grum.
Admin: Converted that 6M file to 600k. ;)
Yes I would say it is the Pelton wheel, it all seems to show that the real generator is this driven by a water pressure pump.
Why is only one battery used for high current as the other only has a thin white wire connected, that would only do control power me thinks!!
Is the belt driven motor from the pump infact a DC PM motor used as a generator as well? and run from the motor of the pressure pump?
The third motor on the other side of the setup (nearly out of view), seems to be an AC motor as you can see the start cap shrouding, what is this for? possibility it is connected to another pump in the bottom of the tank as the pressure pump may need a minimum of 3psi of water pressure + volume to start with as in a karcher pump, but this seems big, 1/4hp?
The investigation continues ;D
Sigh...
well i just hung up with Mr.Potter ,seems he is quite overwhelmed with the response and is scrambling to get his International patents
sorted before shipment ,which is Dec 15 [only Canadian patents in place]
He sold 10 on Paypal link before he caught wind of it and now holding off on orders until product is in house,
also He will Not except payment until product is ready for delivery
He said some Turkey posted the Product on three separate energy forums over the weekend and his life went from famine to feast...
I did not mention my association with said Fowl ...
Yet :D
He is quite confident and sincere ,a truly nice fellow looking to play a bit of catch up ATM.
more info to come ,I have to make a Dr.s visit/app't
Chet
Dear All.
Religion and Politics aside!! :) Has anyone tried doing a simple test?
Mike has suggested a pressure washer pump aimed at the Pelton wheel, this would prove beyond any doubt by measuring both input and output power whether there is an OU situation!
I Am not in the best of financial health ATM, and shelling out £ 150.00 for that unit that dear Groundloop found is beyond me. Surely there must be someone who has the parts to hand to find out?
Cheers Grum.
Quote from: Chet K on 2014.10.27, 12:52:44
[only Canadian patents in place]
Can we find these said patents and have a look?
Certainly they would provide a better theory of operation than looking at screenshots of youtube videos.
Quote from: Grumage on 2014.10.27, 13:23:03
Dear All.
Religion and Politics aside!! :) Has anyone tried doing a simple test?
Mike has suggested a pressure washer pump aimed at the Pelton wheel, this would prove beyond any doubt by measuring both input and output power whether there is an OU situation!
I Am not in the best of financial health ATM, and shelling out £ 150.00 for that unit that dear Groundloop found is beyond me. Surely there must be someone who has the parts to hand to find out?
Cheers Grum.
Funny you should say that Grum,as i actually said the same thing to Chet on the phone not so long ago-has anyone actually tried something similar. I must say i am confused after my conversation with Chet not 10 minutes ago.As Chet stated,the guy has no units ready for sale,so why dose he advertise ready units on his video? he also shows the 3000 watt unit in the video,which he doesn't intend on manufacturing at all???,only from the 5000 watt and up will be available.
Here is an example to the other guys here about Stirling Allen.
Quote Stirling: Let them know PES referred you, for a likely discount and commission for PES. (We've requested this relationship and are waiting to hear back. Wouldn't hurt to mention it.)
Stirling hasn't even talked to the guy yet,and is in no way any sort of partner in this deal-->don't go through S.A if you intend on making any sort of purchase-which i would hold off on just for a while yet,as we would be quite capable of building our own unit's if the tek proved to be true -but i have my doubt's. But in saying that,we hear so much about these pulsed/impacted flywheel setup's,that i wonder if the pelton wheel might act in much the same mannor.
But like poynt said-this dosnt smell so sweet ATM.
I just checked out AU ebay,and it would cost me around $340.00 to buy and shipping.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/PMA-Generator-with-Pelton-Wheel-for-Water-Power-0-240-VAC-4000-Watt-Micro-Hydro-/201082043553?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ed16c7ca1#ht_1148wt_1443
But i believe i may have just the generator needed to see if there may be any sort of truth to this type of setup.
Will post a couple of pics on what i scored today,as it is hard waste throw out week around this area. Couldn't believe my luck.
Dear poynt99.
That is exactly the way I started my small business over 25 years ago!
I built two model IC Engines, took photographs, then advertised the kit's. No internet back then ! I took deposits and then got the castings sorted for final despatch.
This method worked for me in the early days, as the business account grew, so did the stock. My customers were then dealt with by return!!
As I see it, this is a fledgling business, it would be nice to see if the product lives up to expectation!! :)
Cheers Grum.
@All
I have learned from one of the members here to bring things to the simplest and smallest
size possible[within reason] for experiments.
we don't need to see KW just a proof of concept.
perhaps working in a small aquarium size test bed??
thx
Chet
Here is my lucky score today. I found 3 units all up,but one hasn't been cleaned yet,and i don't think the MRS would like it on her kitchen table to much.These are the fisher&paykel smart drive motor's,and they make excellent generators.I managed to find 2x 60 series(1 on the left,and one still in the workshop) and lucky me also found 1x 40 series(one on the right,and pictured by itself) The 40 series also happens to be the one in best condition,but all 3 are in pretty good nick. The 40 series is the lower voltage,higher current model,and used in most wind turbine projects. They are all 3 phase in Y configuration. I think the 40 series would do the job just nicely in this setup.
I also have a high pressure pump,and all is needed now is the pelton wheel itself.
What is also worth noting in this sort of setup,is that it is an open system-in that no matter what load is placed on the generator,no reflection of this load is placed on the pump. The pump will consume X amount of power,and that amount will not change regardless of load on the generator.This makes it very easy to get P/in and P/out measurements. A simple watt meter on the P/in side takes care of that. The P/out from the gen should be rectified and smoothed with large cap's,and then placed on a resistive load to get out P/out measurement.
Quote from: Chet K on 2014.10.27, 14:13:14
@All
I have learned from one of the members here to bring things to the simplest and smallest
size possible[within reason] for experiments.
we don't need to see KW just a proof of concept.
perhaps working in a small aquarium size test bed??
thx
Chet
Chet,
Maybe this small generator will do?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-Hydroelectric-Water-Power-Micro-Hydro-Generator-Portable-Charger-NEW-/271629950552?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item3f3e681e58
GL.
Very interesting, GL -- but the seller states
Quotedoes not ship to United States
Any other seller for this generator??
EDIT: ships to US: http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-Hydroelectric-Water-Power-Micro-Hydro-Generator-Portable-Water-Machine-/111482504980?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19f4e00714#shpCntId
Hi all,
I have lots of experience in turbine and water pumps experiments.
The problem using a water pump is GPM vs PSI= hp needed to drive the pump.
formula is: PSIG * GPM/1714 =hp
So if I have a pressure of say 1714 psi at 1 gpm that means I will need ((1714*1)/1714)= 1 hp or 746watts on power.
The loss is converting this back to electrical power.
This is one experiment that use 1 hp on a rim jet turbine I did a few years ago using 1hp pump.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2L_PBGgHZw&list=UUp3mD3EJromKns3YpglKdpA
Tom
Quote from: TinMan on 2014.10.27, 14:23:58
Here is my lucky score today. I found 3 units all up,but one hasn't been cleaned yet,and i don't think the MRS would like it on her kitchen table to much.These are the fisher&paykel smart drive motor's,and they make excellent generators.I managed to find 2x 60 series(1 on the left,and one still in the workshop) and lucky me also found 1x 40 series(one on the right,and pictured by itself) The 40 series also happens to be the one in best condition,but all 3 are in pretty good nick. The 40 series is the lower voltage,higher current model,and used in most wind turbine projects. They are all 3 phase in Y configuration. I think the 40 series would do the job just nicely in this setup.
I also have a high pressure pump,and all is needed now is the pelton wheel itself.
Washing machine direct drive motors, NICE O0
regards
Mike
Quote from: Tommey Reed on 2014.10.27, 15:43:37
Hi all,
I have lots of experience in turbine and water pumps experiments.
The problem using a water pump is GPM vs PSI= hp needed to drive the pump.
formula is: PSIG * GPM/1714 =hp
So if I have a pressure of say 1714 psi at 1 gpm that means I will need ((1714*1)/1714)= 1 hp or 746watts on power.
The loss is converting this back to electrical power.
This is one experiment that use 1 hp on a rim jet turbine I did a few years ago using 1hp pump.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2L_PBGgHZw&list=UUp3mD3EJromKns3YpglKdpA
Tom
Dear Tom.
With respect, your video is the complete reverse of what may be happening in the GDS unit !!
I think it represents a better engineered version of James Hardy's set up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGpXA6qhH_Q
However if you look closely at time signature 5.01 the Alternator that is attached to the Pelton wheel is not turning although the unit is running?? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEqSuTOKUEg
Cheers Grum.
Hi Grum,
I know James Hardy set up, in fact I have the torpedo pump he used that cost around $400.00 for a 10,000GPH.
I also know the numbers when calculating the psi and water jet size was not enough to keep it running, so most likely the batteries are where the output of energy is on this system.
I believe that this is a simple inverter that will drain the batteries in due time under load. He did say it would run for a few hours, but he also claim water is added that could be using James Hardy basic design.
I could be wrong, but I believe the magic is in the details that he won't say.
Does he have a patent, if so has anyone look it up?
I will be doing a project like this to test my theories, I have all the parts.
Tom
Quote from: Tommey Reed on 2014.10.27, 15:43:37
Hi all,
I have lots of experience in turbine and water pumps experiments.
The problem using a water pump is GPM vs PSI= hp needed to drive the pump.
formula is: PSIG * GPM/1714 =hp
So if I have a pressure of say 1714 psi at 1 gpm that means I will need ((1714*1)/1714)= 1 hp or 746watts on power.
The loss is converting this back to electrical power.
This is one experiment that use 1 hp on a rim jet turbine I did a few years ago using 1hp pump.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2L_PBGgHZw&list=UUp3mD3EJromKns3YpglKdpA
Tom
1714 PSI :D :D :D :D NASA we have lift off ;D
120psi (8.25bar)@5ltr/min+- for that PMA would create 4kw @ 240v giving a rough area to the total impact area of the wheel.
As Grum has said, you are going in reverse, and NO it is not the same, you have to take in impact area as part of the equation, and in our case also diameter of the wheel to get RPM.
It is not so straight forward as you put it ???
regards
Mike 8)
Hi Mike,
I have work to do, but when I get back I will have to show you how wrong you are dealing with water pressure thrust and energy produce. This is basic on water rocket math, so yes Nasa stuff.
Tom ;)
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2014.10.26, 22:59:22
PS -- Tinman is right = let's just buy one, test it, return for refund if we don't like it.
I mean, a guy could fly up there, test it in his motel room?
Toronto, right? is there a street address?
I think I can spring for $3K right now... for the gds 3000, yes. Proof of principle is what I seek (first).
Been saving sheckels.
Chet keep that in mind.
PS - lotsa fun if it works, but hey, why not take the trip?
PS2 - Sterling's PESN article is likely to generate a LOT of calls to gds this coming few days...
Steve, I'd hold off on any purchases on this. Some time ago I observed a long drawn out battle with a group of people who had prepaid for a lot of expensive items from a guy in Canada. He took the money and ran and they tried getting a lawyer involved to recover some money but it never did go anywhere. Beside that my own feeling is this is big SCAM but it might at least be worth taking a trip to look at it. I'm not sure member AllCanadian is close by but I know he's in Canada. I haven't seen him around the forums lately but maybe someone can PM him here or on energetic forum where I last saw him.
Quote from: Tommey Reed on 2014.10.27, 16:55:04
Hi Mike,
I have work to do, but when I get back I will have to show you how wrong you are dealing with water pressure thrust and energy produce. This is basic on water rocket math, so yes Nasa stuff.
Tom ;)
Tom, here is a graph of hp needed in relation to flow and pressure, for a
"guide only" 275 ft of height is 120psi for water at ST.
As in all calculations of this type you should take into consideration the static head of the pump. Now as I have stated in previous posts, there just maybe another pump in this system, why? to change the static head as there is no static head, as is here, so a static head was changed by the use of the "possible" other pump. I hope everyone is with me on what I'm saying, "pumps work depending on static head of water".
regards
Mike 8)
E2matrix -- good observations -- agreed.
We should have test results before too long; without those, there's really not much basis yet.
If it is a self-runner as advertised, one would just need to run for say 10 hours continuously videotaping, with no input power - except water -- then that would be quite compelling. Still needs observers checking for no "cheating".
I'm actually willing to travel up there - if they'll allow a simple (non-invasive) test as described.
Quote from: TinMan on 2014.10.27, 14:32:24
What is also worth noting in this sort of setup,is that it is an open system-in that no matter what load is placed on the generator,no reflection of this load is placed on the pump. The pump will consume X amount of power,and that amount will not change regardless of load on the generator.This makes it very easy to get P/in and P/out measurements. A simple watt meter on the P/in side takes care of that. The P/out from the gen should be rectified and smoothed with large cap's,and then placed on a resistive load to get out P/out measurement.
Guys, a got thinking about this last night...
Torque on the output shaft is a factor of the wheel's radius. Bigger "R", more leverage.
RPM on the output shaft is a factor of water velocity hitting the blades/buckets. This is assuming the leverage is good enough to keep the resistance to a minimum. I would think under no load, this velocity would be equal.
Force at water impact against the blades/buckets is a bit of an unknown to me. PSI? Water volume? There are factors there I'd have to see experimentally to fully understand the mechanics. It does seem to me you would want the water jet facing straight down to pickup any effects of gravity too. Kinetics would suggest the force impinged on each blade/bucket should be the difference in velocity between the water jet and the blade/bucket, times the mass of the water actually reduced in speed.
Maybe someone with a clear head and strong math skills can work-up a chart that shows these relationships with various test points, say ten example plots. That should give us an idea whether the horsepower produced can actually exceed the energy needed for a certain diameter and velocity water jet. I can try to do this, but I'm not confident my data will any way match reality.
Dear Matt.
The Pelton wheel has been with us for quite some time !!
This might be of interest ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelton_wheel
I also fondly remember working at the Cwm Dyli Hydro station where there were two Peebles sets working beautifully at nearly 80 years old !! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cwm_Dyli
Cheers Grum.
Quote from: Grumage on 2014.10.27, 20:32:39
Dear Matt.
The Pelton wheel has been with us for quite some time !!
This might be of interest ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelton_wheel
I also fondly remember working at the Cwm Dyli Hydro station where there were two Peebles sets working beautifully at nearly 80 years old !! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cwm_Dyli
Cheers Grum.
Hi Grum
Your making me home sick, North Wales is so full of wonder ;)
regards
Mike 8)
Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014.10.27, 19:39:39
Guys, a got thinking about this last night...
Torque on the output shaft is a factor of the wheel's radius. Bigger "R", more leverage.
RPM on the output shaft is a factor of water velocity hitting the blades/buckets. This is assuming the leverage is good enough to keep the resistance to a minimum. I would think under no load, this velocity would be equal.
Force at water impact against the blades/buckets is a bit of an unknown to me. PSI? Water volume? There are factors there I'd have to see experimentally to fully understand the mechanics. It does seem to me you would want the water jet facing straight down to pickup any effects of gravity too. Kinetics would suggest the force impinged on each blade/bucket should be the difference in velocity between the water jet and the blade/bucket, times the mass of the water actually reduced in speed.
Maybe someone with a clear head and strong math skills can work-up a chart that shows these relationships with various test points, say ten example plots. That should give us an idea whether the horsepower produced can actually exceed the energy needed for a certain diameter and velocity water jet. I can try to do this, but I'm not confident my data will any way match reality.
Wonder if anyone has thought about the fact that the pelton wheel would actually be under water when there is 4 gallons of water in the tank ;D-->or would the water level still be bellow the pelton wheel?
Quote from: TinMan on 2014.10.27, 22:41:10
Wonder if anyone has thought about the fact that the pelton wheel would actually be under water when there is 4 gallons of water in the tank ;D-->or would the water level still be bellow the pelton wheel?
I was just thinking the same. If you use the water level indicator and just fill the tank based on that, then
the water level will be well above the Pelton wheel. Does a Pelton wheel work when under water?
GL.
Generator details etc
http://www.motenergy.com/hydro-power-products.html
regards
Mike 8)
PS I don't think it is running in water, it is only 20cm diameter and it has very little cogging torque, does not need huge pressure, all seems too good to be true.
Hi All,
Ok this is the basics of how water pressure is calculated.
Pressure output:
Thrust output in pounds:
FPS flow of water:
Input of water pump:
Output of generator
Enjoy!
Tom
480 watts from a fisher and pykal setup,and using a truck load of water.
A long way from 3000 watts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBPbuVc1UQ8
Decided not to waste any more of my time on this(GDS). After watching many video's of actual pelton hydro electric setup's,it is very clear that the amount and pressure of water needed to get just 1kw far exceeds that of what the little pump in the GDS would put out.Then also to have an electric motor driving a PMA-well you have QMoGen written all over it.
Common sense says this GDS device is rubbish/scam material.
Now ,back to something useful. O0
Hi TinMan,
I agree, this could just be a water cool inverter system for all we know.
Water is very powerful when it's in a lake or steam, but pumping water cost energy, no free lunch here.
James Hardy system could not over come the loss of energy it takes to pump enough water to produce more energy output.
Tom
Sterling will be Calling Mr.Potter on a regular Basis and posting updates here
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Main_Page
thx
Chet
Quote from: Chet K on 2014.10.28, 00:44:30
Sterling will be Calling Mr.Potter on a regular Basis and posting updates here
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Main_Page
thx
Chet
Quote: I asked him where he got the idea. He said it came to him in a dream about 4.5 years ago: O0
Hi all,
I think I found out who this guy is, after looking at his picture and how his hair was dye I believe this is the guy:
http://www.knoxnews.com/news/local-news/clean-energy-official-succumbs-to-power-of-green
They look that same to me, what do you think?
I found a Greg potter, but it's not same guy in the same area.
https://www.linkedin.com/pub/greg-potter/14/a70/84
I try to search this guy, nothing comes up, wonder why?
Tom
TinMan
I wouldn't knock dreams too much
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitri_Mendeleev
@Tommey
I don't know about that one??
thx
Chet
Hi Chet,
I was trying to look up this Greg Potter on the internet, I can't find anything from the past.
I believe this could be a fake name, I wonder why nothing came up on this guy?
Tom
Tom
I think the next few weeks will be quite telling on this one,no stone left unturned...
thx
Chet
Quote from: Tommey Reed on 2014.10.28, 02:20:02
Hi Chet,
I was trying to look up this Greg Potter on the internet, I can't find anything from the past.
I believe this could be a fake name, I wonder why nothing came up on this guy?
Tom
I found him Tom-he's an Aussie lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRnTUZt4RqM
Quote from: Centraflow on 2014.10.27, 16:46:46
1714 PSI :D :D :D :D NASA we have lift off ;D
120psi (8.25bar)@5ltr/min+- for that PMA would create 4kw @ 240v giving a rough area to the total impact area of the wheel.
As Grum has said, you are going in reverse, and NO it is not the same, you have to take in impact area as part of the equation, and in our case also diameter of the wheel to get RPM.
It is not so straight forward as you put it ???
regards
Mike 8)
Tom, I have quoted my own post so as you can see that I was only pulling a bit of fun on the
1714psi, not your calc's, but have you ever seen water at this pressure? and on top of that leaving a jet? that is what I was on about, enough thrust to lift off a rocket ;D
regards
Mike 8)
Quote from: Centraflow on 2014.10.28, 10:26:11
Tom, I have quoted my own post so as you can see that I was only pulling a bit of fun on the 1714psi, not your calc's, but have you ever seen water at this pressure? and on top of that leaving a jet? that is what I was on about, enough thrust to lift off a rocket ;D
regards
Mike 8)
My high preasure cleaner runs at 2600psi,and i dont get lift off lol. However,the volume is very low.
Quote from: Chet K on 2014.10.28, 00:44:30
Sterling will be Calling Mr.Potter on a regular Basis and posting updates here
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Main_Page
thx
Chet
Quoting from there:
QuoteGDS Technologies (water generator) is not ready to go yet
Greg told me he didn't plan on releasing these until December 15, when he had inventory built up; and that the website wording was in preparation for that; and that someone found the site and blasted it on several forums, which inundated him with inquiries and orders, which he will be refunding.
by Sterling D. Allan
Pure Energy Systems News
I just got off the phone with Gregory Potter, the inventor of the technology so many of you have seen by now, as we announced it as follows in our news, night before last:
Featured: Water > as Fuel / QMoGen? >
GDS Technologies' Portable Water Generators - Canadian company has a water-powered, portable genset available for sale on their website, in output sizes of 5 kW, 10 kW and 15 kW, at a price of around $1000/kW. Just 4 gallons of tap water will run the 5 kW system relatively quietly for three days. It emits no pollution, no fumes. Suitable for non-grid-tie applications. (PESWiki; October 26, 2014)
Greg Potter with his GDS3000, which they will not be selling. The 5kW system will be the smallest output they will sell.
It's been one of the most popular things we've posted in quite a while -- even more popular than the stories we did on the recent E-Cat (cold fusion) third party test results being published. Our index of news coverage on the E-Cat development is just past 10,000 visits, posted October 9. Meanwhile, in just the first 34 hours, our PESWiki page on GDS Technologies linked above has over 8,200 visits.
Greg said he has received around 1500 emails since yesterday morning, and was on the phone 12 hours yesterday fielding calls. It took me four tries this morning before I finally got through -- first thing in the morning. Here's a link to the recording of our call.
He said he received 10 orders by PayPal and needed to contact them to have them cancel those. I instructed him how to issue refunds in PayPal (it's really easy).
He's not ready to take orders yet, and hadn't planned on receiving orders until he announced his product in a press release and/or advertising. He wants to introduce the product on around December 15, after they've had a chance to build up some inventory -- and get international patent coverage. He has a meeting this Thursday with the attorneys for that purpose. He said he has a Canadian patent filed.
An investor associate of mine said he called Greg yesterday and was told that at first they were expecting the first delivery November 15, but now they are backlogged to December 15.
Obviously, Greg is not that savvy about how the web works, nor about product roll-out. But we should cut him some slack for an innocent mistake. I don't see it as being malicious or fraudulent; just naively reckless.
Presently he's essentially a one-man-band. He needs a good team wrapped around him who knows how to run a businesses and product roll-out, including the engineering, testing, branding, website, teasers, setting up manufacturing, distributing, etc.
Greg said his tech guy hasn't been available over the weekend to make the needed changes on their site. They're going to take down the purchase buttons and modify some wording to make it clear that these are not available yet. He needs to change the wording on the title of his video, too. I hope he doesn't make it private or unlisted -- just add notice in the title or description to clarify.
In getting this news, Patrick Flanagan (Tesla in former life?), who is the one who informed me about it two days ago, saying he had purchased one, wrote the following: "I don't want my money back. I would like to be first in line. I could probably help him engineering wise too."
When I pointed out to Greg that his website makes it look like they are ready to sell and deliver these units, he said that he had not intended for them to be public yet. I'm not sure how he expected that after having a YouTube video up with a reference to the site. Posted on September 7, that YouTube Video has just over 2,000 visits when I first viewed it Saturday night. By last night, it had over 17,000 visits. Now, as of 8:30 am MDT [GMT-6], it has over 27,000 views.
He said that someone posted a link to his site and video on several forums, which led to this inundation. Our coverage facilitated that inundation as well.
I assured him that the interest would begin to fizzle almost as rapidly, once we get this story up about them not actually being ready to go. He said he appreciated that.
He said something about his "team" and a "factory", but we were rushed, and I wasn't able to probe deeper on that one: how many on the team? what size factory? Their Alibaba listing for their GDS 3000 system says they are capable for producing 400/month. I'm not sure why they would have that page up, either, if they weren't yet ready to sell. That page makes no mention, either, of this not being available yet.
I asked him where he got the idea. He said it came to him in a dream about 4.5 years ago: "Build a [water] turbo generator, it will work". He didn't take it really seriously at first, and basically just researched the ideas for about a year before launching into trying to build one.
He said he's built about ten now. He told Chet Kremens that the ratings of the three generators sizes they plan to sell are actually significantly underplayed, and could handle a peak load that is 300% of the name plate output rating. So if you have 5 kW system, it would be more than adequate to handle a continuous load of 5 kW, with an infrequent spike of 15 kW.
CORRECTION: He told Chet that in a 5 kW system, the actual output was 7 kW, and that 2 kW was needed to run the system, leaving 5 kW for external use.
They're still not optimized in their engineering. It gets warm, which isn't good for the wear of the moving parts. If you try and run it 24/7 you'll have problems. He doesn't recommend running them more than 12 hours. He suggests 8 hours, followed by at least a three hour cool-down period. He said he has run a 5 kW system 8 hours every day for two years now. He expects that if run this way the system will last at least 6 years. Chet thinks that the heating problem should be easy to resolve with proper engineering, using the proper readily available parts.
He said they are not going to be selling the 3 kW system. The smaller parts needed are not reliable.
While he's not ready to sell yet, he said he is open to engineering help. I recommended he hook up as soon as possible with Mike Waters, President of NEST, who actually invented something quite similar to this and is presently working on a variation of it as we speak. Mike told me he's more than willing to drive up this week.
Someone asked whether groups would have permission to replicate the technology. My reply (this isn't coming from Greg) is that the principle is yes, you can replicate. He's filing for international patent coverage so that people will be required to work through him to be legit and not prone to law suit over patent infringement. I would think they would appreciate people replicating so they know what they are doing, then license for manufacturing.
Greg invited me to contact him weekly to get updates on their progress.
Quote from: TinMan on 2014.10.28, 12:47:59
My high preasure cleaner runs at 2600psi,and i dont get lift off lol. However,the volume is very low.
Brad the pump may run at that pressure but what do you get leaving the nozzel? 2600psi would cut your arm off at 1gal/min. you only have to look at water cutters, but then you get into the diameter of jet etc etc
We were talking about a jet of water hitting a 20cm dia turbine, did you see Toms video, the static pressure and the running pressure? Lol they are two different things, like measuring voltage with and without load.
I think we sit back and see how this pans out, I really do not think it works, but would be nice if it did O0 but I do like that PMA if the spec is right ;)
regards
Mike 8)
Hi Alll,
I know my theories on this guy sound crazy, but there is nothing I can find on this guy.
I like to add again that this Greg Potter has no past viideo or picture on engine search, like he just was born a few months ago.
I also checked Canada patent files this year and nothing came up, this would be public information.
Now to get back to water power:
1hp =33,000lb rise 1ft off the ground in 1 minute
1hp= 550ft/lb sec.
1hp = torque * rpm / 5252
When working with converting mechanical work to electrical output expect more work needed due to friction loss and rpm constant speed needed.
It takes a average of 4,000 gallons of water at 1 foot height to produce 1hp:
33,000lb/8.33lb=3961 gal/per/min
A 10ft drop of water will only take about 400gal@4.33psi gal/per/min to produce 1hp
A 100ft drop of water will take about 40gal@43.3psi to produce 1hp
hp=PSI * GPM / 1714
Tom
Quote from: Centraflow on 2014.10.28, 14:50:30
Brad the pump may run at that pressure but what do you get leaving the nozzel? 2600psi would cut your arm off at 1gal/min. you only have to look at water cutters, but then you get into the diameter of jet etc etc
We were talking about a jet of water hitting a 20cm dia turbine, did you see Toms video, the static pressure and the running pressure? Lol they are two different things, like measuring voltage with and without load.
I think we sit back and see how this pans out, I really do not think it works, but would be nice if it did O0 but I do like that PMA if the spec is right ;)
regards
Mike 8)
The preasure cleaner puts out 5.3 LPM,so that is more than 1 gallon a minute,and no,it wont cut your arm off,although it dose sting when you hit your foot with it lol.
In regards to the output of the PMA,take a look at the output from one of the smartdrive motors i have ,being used as an alternator-and these have only ferrite magnets in them.
May have to skip to about 2 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-R_ziYunY3g
Quote from: TinMan on 2014.10.28, 23:25:20
In regards to the output of the PMA,take a look at the output from one of the smartdrive motors i have ,being used as an alternator-and these have only ferrite magnets in them.
May have to skip to about 2 minutes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-R_ziYunY3g
Lordy, that makes quite the plasma arc. Run it with a Pelton wheel at 5000 RPM and you'd really have something there. The trick would be getting it back to mains power. You suppose that's what the battery and inverters are doing? Hitting the battery with high voltage spikes and drawing it back off at a sufficient rate to keep the battery from exploding?
If the GDS device is for real, I'd have to bet only one or two devices in there are for OU; the rest is to govern the energy to keep things stable and to make the output power usable. And if Mr. Potter has done this using off-the-shelf components, I can't for the life of me figure out why none of us have stumbled into the secret by accident.
Hi All,
I understand that no matter how many poles your generator is, you will increase torque needed to produce energy.
So:
1kw @1000 rpms would need 5252/1000=5.25ft*1.34 = 7.04 foot pounds of constant torque.
Or:
1kw @ 3000rpms would need 5252/3000=1.75ft/lb*1.34=2.34 foot pounds of constant torque.
But:
For every kilowatt in gasoline engine will take a average of 2hp, diesel is only 1.5 hp.
I know you guys know this O0
Tom
Yep they certainly make a awsome generator, never seen sparks being drawn from one like that though, one hell of a current to do that, did notice the motor loading.
You could weld with that, no problem ;D
With regards the pressure, no won't cut your arm off because the pressure of the jet is not what your thinking, that is my whole point, think about 2500 pounds of weight all on a square inch of your body (constant pressure), or on the body of your car when you are washing it. The pressure on one side of the jet is not the same as the other side (the outlet).
regards
Mike 8)
I have posted this on EF, it speaks for itself.
The only thing that needs to be worked out is how the 4th motor is in relation to the Pelton wheel inside the tank, as always it is the part we can not see C.C
POST:-
In the total unit there are 4 motors/generators, two of which are connected by a belt drive, one is a PMA driven by a pelton turbine wheel, and the other is an AC motor of which we do not know what it does!!!!! but seems to be connected to something inside the water tank at the bottom corner.
First the two connected by a pully belt. The dark coloured one seems to be a DC motor and the silver one is a single phase motor driving a high pressure pump on the end (box on end), but the wiring box and run cap have been removed so as it can be wired 3 phase (wires coming out of motor).
Because it is now 3phase and there is no three phase until the pelton PMA is running, it is started up by the 12v DC motor via the pully which is connected to where the fan used to be
Now there is 3phase, and the now 3phase pressure pump is running on it's own, albeit a closed loop with the pelton PMA, which science says it can not be
Now that DC motor is running from the second battery, the battery with the low amp wire, here we have to look at the different possible senarios:-
1. the motor continues running as a motor and supplimenting the 3phase motor (possibly why PMA and pump can be looped)
2. it has now become a generator and recharging the start battery
3. it is doing both the above depending on load controller (most probable)
4. it was only a start motor and after free running.
The Pelton driven PMA stands for itself apart from water configuration along with motor (AC) 4.
Now the fourth motor, an AC motor as you can see the cap shroud on the casing, and about all that is known about this motor. So what is this motor doing? work that one out, and if this is not a scam you have cracked it
regards
Mike
END POST
regards
Mike 8)
@Matt
QuoteForce at water impact against the blades/buckets is a bit of an unknown to me. PSI? Water volume? There are factors there I'd have to see experimentally to fully understand the mechanics. It does seem to me you would want the water jet facing straight down to pickup any effects of gravity too. Kinetics would suggest the force impinged on each blade/bucket should be the difference in velocity between the water jet and the blade/bucket, times the mass of the water actually reduced in speed.
Maybe someone with a clear head and strong math skills can work-up a chart that shows these relationships with various test points, say ten example plots
A clear head... well maybe not so much but I used to design gas turbines and wrote code for many simulators.
Here is the important stuff, a centrifugal pump imparts a velocity to the working fluid(air/water) and the tip speed (outermost tip of blade) determines the max pressure developed and the spacing between the blades(area) determines the max volume. The impeller increases the "momentum" (mass x velocity) of the fluid and at the outlet the area increases(volute casing) converting velocity to pressure. Decreasing velocity = increasing pressure, vice versa.
If the working fluid under pressure is ejected through a nozzle/decreasing area then the pressure is converted to velocity. Here it's important to keep an eye on momentum (mass x velocity) as it's increasing. Now if the working fluid hits the blade of a turbine wheel then the decrease in momentum(mv) of the fluid is equal to the increase of momentum(mv) of the blade/disk. A load on the disk is simply another way of saying momentum is transferred which tends to decrease the velocity of the disk despite the accelerating force of the fluid. The blade turning angle and velocity determines how much momentum is transferred from the fluid to the disk ie. efficiency. A pelton turbine has a large turning angle near 150 degrees and generally has a tip speed at 1/2 the nozzle exit velocity.
In any case it's very easy to understand once it is understood that everything revolves around a change in momentum. Change in momentum(source)>pressure>change in momentum(load). I must be a slow learner because it took me years and a probably a few hundred thousand lines of code before it all made perfect sense. Mind you this was a couple decades ago but it's like riding a bike.
AC
Hi all,
This is the best way to produce power at a high efficient way.
6hp Diesel motor running at 2700 rpm's with a 3600 rpm generator head.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65_Ad4VuG1s
Tom
Quote from: Allcanadian on 2014.10.29, 18:51:42
... everything revolves around a change in momentum.
Thanks AC. That's what I was thinking too.
So having built an actual simulator of this effect, do you see any possible way this could extract excess mechanical energy? I mean sure, if small portions of water were being transformed into pure energy, then obviously such a transformation would have loads of abundant energy available. I can't imagine this happening though. I would like to get to the bottom of why the GDS supposedly consumes water, unless it is purely liquid and/or vapor leakage.
Sure would have been nice if Chet and PhysicsProf could have went up there and tested an actual unit and came back with a components list and a block diagram of how everything hooks together. If this device is for real, there is clearly something we've all seen before that we've dismissed before we actually understood it.
Quote from: Tommey Reed on 2014.10.29, 21:39:31
Hi all,
This is the best way to produce power at a high efficient way.
6hp Diesel motor running at 2700 rpm's with a 3600 rpm generator head.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65_Ad4VuG1s
Tom
Very nice! Where were you able to find the single
cylinder diesel engine? Reasonably priced?
Quote from: Allcanadian on 2014.10.29, 18:51:42
@Matt
Here is the important stuff, a centrifugal pump imparts a velocity to the working fluid(air/water) and the tip speed (outermost tip of blade) determines the max pressure developed and the spacing between the blades(area) determines the max volume. The impeller increases the "momentum" (mass x velocity) of the fluid and at the outlet the area increases(volute casing) converting velocity to pressure. Decreasing velocity = increasing pressure, vice versa.
AC
Please correct this for the kiddies..
Working fluids air and water cannot be, and are not, treated the same as one is hydraulic and the other is pneumatic and have differing operating characteristics under the same prime mover force. In other words one is compressible and the other is not, one is a gas the other is a liquid.
Pressure is the Force per unit Area.. P = F / A however in a fluid dynamics environment mass flow must also be taken into account, and what happens next depends on whether the fluid is compressible or not.
Hi Mudped,
I got my engine on ebay for $550.00 with shipping.
The price went up a little:
http://www.aliexpress.com/w/wholesale-6hp-diesel-engine.html
Tom
@evolvingape
QuoteWorking fluids air and water cannot be, and are not, treated the same as one is hydraulic and the other is pneumatic and have differing operating characteristics under the same prime mover force. In other words one is compressible and the other is not, one is a gas the other is a liquid.
Pressure is the Force per unit Area.. P = F / A however in a fluid dynamics environment mass flow must also be taken into account, and what happens next depends on whether the fluid is compressible or not.
I would agree, you know it used to take me 10 pages of paper using both sides to calculate a simple single stage gas turbine to match point. Which is why I started writing my own gas turbine simulation programs to do all the number crunching for me. As such I can make this as complicated as you want however for the average person who just wants to understand the basic process it should be kept as simple a possible.
AC
:)
http://www.homepower.com/microhydro-power
http://www.microhydropower.net/
... for small power Turgo wheel is better O0
http://www.h-hydro.com/
http://www.hydrogenappliances.com/hydro.html
all sizing ..... calculation and spreadsheet here
http://h-hydro.com/New_Site/technical-information/
http://homehydro.com/charts.html
more:
http://www.smallhydropower.com/thes.html
parts:
http://www.hydrogenappliances.com/pmaparts.html
Quote from: evolvingape on 2014.10.30, 01:16:15
Please correct this for the kiddies..
I guess it works something like this:
http://www.google.com/patents/WO2006085782A1
http://www.google.com/patents/US20130038062
Where the major concept involved is that water IS compressible, something I never knew to be true. Use a moving flow of water and a valve to actually compress the water, then release it with much higher pressure.
Hi all,
I don't know why people still would think that pumping water no matter what pressure or volume would produce extra power?
I have done many experiments in this field, you will have too many loss due to friction and load, I would say that this water generator is a total scam.
History show that when Stirling is involve it's always in the past a scam to make money!
Good luck on this one!
Tom
Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014.10.30, 09:05:53
I guess it works something like this:
http://www.google.com/patents/WO2006085782A1
http://www.google.com/patents/US20130038062
Where the major concept involved is that water IS compressible, something I never knew to be true. Use a moving flow of water and a valve to actually compress the water, then release it with much higher pressure.
Interesting. The first patent mentions water cavitation, hammer. Reminiscent of John Worrell Keely and hjis Hydro Vaccuo Machine.
Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014.10.30, 09:05:53
I guess it works something like this:
http://www.google.com/patents/WO2006085782A1
http://www.google.com/patents/US20130038062
Where the major concept involved is that water IS compressible, something I never knew to be true. Use a moving flow of water and a valve to actually compress the water, then release it with much higher pressure.
That's because it is not true..
water is not compressible but it can flash to vapour under the right conditions.
"Water, being a compressible and elastic material can be subjected to very high pressured compression and low pressured expansion." Now that's funny! This guy does not have a clue how his own 'invention' 'works'! C.C
The hydraulic ram has been around for a long time.. no mystery there, and to use the high pressure jet to turn a water wheel of some sort is not a mystery either. The claim in that patent that there is an energy surplus from that system as described made me laugh.
;D
I am not going to bother with the second patent there is nothing of value in it at all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_ram
A hydraulic ram, or hydram, is a cyclic water pump powered by hydropower.
It takes in water at one "hydraulic head" (pressure) and flow rate, and outputs water at a higher hydraulic head and lower flow rate. The device uses the water hammer effect to develop pressure that allows
a portion of the input water that powers the pump to be lifted to a point higher than where the water originally started. The hydraulic ram is sometimes used in remote areas, where there is both a source of low-head hydropower and a need for pumping water to a destination higher in elevation than the source. In this situation, the ram is often useful, since
it requires no outside source of power other than the kinetic energy of flowing water.
Quote from: Tommey Reed on 2014.10.30, 11:09:04
Hi all,
I don't know why people still would think that pumping water no matter what pressure or volume would produce extra power?
Tom
Haha yeah I know funny isn't it. People don't bother asking my opinion on 'OU' systems like this anymore cos normally I just start laughing and they get upset. C.C
Quote from: evolvingape on 2014.10.30, 16:32:13
That's because it is not true.. water is not compressible but it can flash to vapour under the right conditions.
Haha yeah I know funny isn't it. People don't bother asking my opinion on 'OU' systems like this anymore cos normally I just start laughing and they get upset. C.C
I can handle the truth. I always thought water was not compressible, then along comes this patent that says the water compresses at a rate of 0.77%. Small granted, but still there. Got me thinking...
If water is in motion and you abruptly stop it, the negative acceleration is infinite. Taking the mass of all that water into account, doesn't this imply there is also a force of infinity? Wouldn't that be enough to overcome even the strong nuclear force?
Something tells me nature doesn't work that way...
Quote from: Allcanadian on 2014.10.30, 03:05:18
@evolvingape
however for the average person who just wants to understand the basic process it should be kept as simple a possible.
AC
Agreed.
Water is hydraulic (non compressible)
Air is pneumatic (compressible) and obeys the gas laws relating volume, temperature and pressure.
Water with air bubbles entrained in the flow is part hydraulic and part pneumatic which I call a semi elastic working fluid.
Water with hho bubbles entrained in the flow is semi elastic until you trigger the combustion reaction somehow, and then the bubbles turn to water and the working fluid becomes entirely hydraulic almost instantaneously.
Backpressure.. what is it ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back_pressure
Back pressure refers to pressure opposed to the desired flow of a fluid in a confined place such as a pipe. It is often caused by obstructions or tight bends in the confinement vessel along which it is moving, such as piping or air vents.
Because it is really resistance, the term back pressure is misleading as the pressure remains and causes flow in the same direction, but the flow is reduced due to resistance. For example, an automotive exhaust muffler with a particularly high number of twists, bends, turns and right angles could be described as having particularly high back pressure.
I know you understand what backpressure is AC, but for the people that don't here it is.
Hi All,
I believe I have a lot to say in this field, many may not remember my Richard Clem Engine projects.
I learn so much building a few prototypes out of my own pocket, with pumps and different designs.
The water cavitation won't hold up in any system, most hydroelectric plant avoid cavitation due to the effects it has on the turbines.
I believe this GDS is nothing more then a battery power water pump to get less energy out then using those big batteries in the inverter.
Ever wonder why two big batteries is being used?
Also who is this Greg Potter, has anyone look this guy up?
Most people will have a past when looking up their names, this guy has nothing and GDS Technologies is just a front name that is being used.
A few GDS Technologies I found:
http://www.gdstech.co.za/
http://www.bluwan.com/company/strategic-partners/gds-technologies.html
http://www.gdstechnology.org/
Another point is, Facebook started GDS on 08/24/14
https://www.facebook.com/GDSTechnologies/info
Youtube in 08/5/14:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpO2LkAY98euyQQd4aLV8XA/about
My point is not a single picture of the Greg Potter or past post, It's like he pop up out of the blues.
My opinion is it's a scam like James Hardy and the rest of them. If I'm wrong, then I'm man enough to to say that.
Tom
Quote from: Allcanadian on 2014.10.29, 18:51:42
@Matt
Here is the important stuff, a centrifugal pump imparts a velocity to the working fluid(air/water) and the tip speed (outermost tip of blade) determines the max pressure developed and the spacing between the blades(area) determines the max volume. The impeller increases the "momentum" (mass x velocity) of the fluid and at the outlet the area increases(volute casing) converting velocity to pressure. Decreasing velocity = increasing pressure, vice versa.
In any case it's very easy to understand once it is understood that everything revolves around a change in momentum. Change in momentum(source)>pressure>change in momentum(load).
AC
AC had it right, when the valve slams shut on a hydraulic ram the water in the pipe behind the valve still has momentum, the sum of its mass x velocity. This momentum energy has nowhere to go and backpressure builds driving the water through the only tube available to it, the reduced bore high pressure tube. You will get a much higher pressure from this but the mass flow has reduced substantially.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli%27s_principle
I will also add,
I will be willing to do any experiment if you guys would like to see with water or hydraulic, I still have lots of good parts to work with.
I will even copy the James Hardy design to prove a point. I have the pump he was using called T10000 or 10,000 GPH
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhwQt1tJYa8
http://www.graystonecreations.com/Cal-Pump-Torpedo-Pumps_c_21.html
Tom
Quote from: Tommey Reed on 2014.10.30, 17:22:59
My opinion is it's a scam like James Hardy and the rest of them.
Tom
My opinion too Tommy!
Well I think we all think it is a scam, still it is nice to break down the possibilities. The pelton I found interesting as it is not volume but impulse that it works with, that opens up a lot of possibilities for projects O0
regards
Mike 8)
Quote from: Tommey Reed on 2014.10.30, 17:35:46
I will be willing to do any experiment if you guys would like to see with water or hydraulic, I still have lots of good parts to work with.
I will even copy the James Hardy design to prove a point. I have the pump he was using called T10000 or 10,000 GPH
Actually Tom, if you would attempt this replication, I sure would appreciate it. If it fails and you don't see anything interesting along the way, it would put this concept to bed for sure. Use a transfer switch though--don't try to unplug and replug as he did. Hopefully your rocket stove can burn pieces of wet wood after all is said and done.
Tom
I think we need to let this sit a few weeks ,when first reported we were hopeful for a visit to validate the claim in person.
while that is not off the table yet ,we should at the very least try to establish the MO pryor to building a device that is not accurate to the alleged running principle.
we can cry foul and not even be on the same page as the inventor ??
Just my three cents worth.
thx
Chet
Hi Chet,
I understand, but I just want to keep people from jumping off the bridge and find it's a long way down to hit bottom.
Stirling is playing us all, he has a history of doing this. I talk to a friend that call Canada about this company. So far no information yet.
I'm not going to waste my time on this forum, but will do some future experiments on the James Hardy project.
Tom...
Hi All,
This is a update on Stirling Allan web site.
http://pesn.com//2014/10/30/9602560_Role_of_Pelton-Wheel_in_GDS-Technologies-water-generator/
http://www.fourcea.com/category_s/1830.htm
Question, if Greg show the inside of the generator running, but the turbine was not spinning.
Tom
Hi All.
Ok, I found enough data on the turbine to clear this up asp.
First of all if you seen the Video where Greg Potter was showing the system running with the top off, you can clearly see the turbine generator cooling fan not turning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEqSuTOKUEg
5:00 you can clearly see the turbine not turning.
This is the turbine:
http://www.fourcea.com/category_s/1830.htm
Micro Home Power Water PMA Generator and Pelton Wheel 1000-3000 Watts, 12-36 VDC eBay TALK: Get answers and conn
List Price: $864.77 Inc GST
Our Price: $540.48 Inc GST
Savings: $324.29
Pelton Wheel and PMA Generator set. These two products were designs to work with 1000 to 3000 watts output, from 12 to 36 VDC for charging batteries in Home Power systems. Note that this is an AC generator and you need to purchase your own 3-phase full wave rectifier to convert the AC output to DC for charging batteries. You can find 3-phase rectifiers and Charge Controllers on our site
Pelton Wheel Part Number ME0903.
PM Generator ME1016 Rev A.
The Pelton wheel has die cast aluminum cups for many years of product life.. There are 12 cups. The generator uses Ceramic magnets and has over 85% efficiency, much hither than a standard car alternator which is usually 60%. The Pelton Wheel mounts directly onto the PM Generator shaft with 4 x M5 mounting bolts (bolts not included but can be purchased from Us or a local hardware store).
Designed for use on your own Pico Hydro Projects. You will also need to build a water box and add a nozzle, plus you will need a 3-phase full wave rectifier and a charge controller.
Easily provides 1000 watts of power with one nozzle, 2000 watts with two nozzles. With one 3/4 inch nozzle and 28 PSI (65 feet), 80 gallons per minute, it provides 500 watts output. You can add up to 4 nozzles.
So if this generator produce 500w of power it says that you would need:
28 psi @ 80GPM = 500w output
But:
28psi x 80gal/1714 =1.3 hp or 974watts to produce 500 watts where is this free energy?
I see it this way, input 975w and waste this energy to produce 500w output not something anyone would buy.
I will not comment on this GDS project any more, It's a waste of time.
Tom C.C
Hi Tom
Don't think much of that site, all the model numbers are the same but have different description and price, and talking of price, I have seen the same for just under 200euros complete, whatever they are all made in China ;D
regards
Mike 8)
Here
http://www.motenergy.com/hydro-power-products.html
http://www.cafr.ebay.ca/itm/PMA-Generator-Inverter-Pelton-Wheel-Water-Power-240-VAC-50-Hz-2kw-W-Micro-Hydro-/200959487571
regards
Mike 8)
@All
Spoke with Mr.Potter
He will allow a black box test of the device ,it will be arranged in Mid December.
Thx
Chet
Quote from: Chet K on 2014.11.03, 13:48:30
@All
Spoke with Mr.Potter
He will allow a black box test of the device ,it will be arranged in Mid December.
Thx
Chet
Good work, Chet!
Now we have the opportunity to plan WHAT TESTS could be done on a black box, to test for validity.
First, we would want to do a LONG run, say 10 hours, with a resistive load near capacity. So if we are testing the 3kW machine, we would want to have (say) two 1500 W heaters running from it constantly for 10 hours. The idea is to run longer than the batteries could POSSIBLY run invertors to run the heaters.
Of course, we would use an oscilloscope (or two) to monitor the output voltage waveform (e.g., does it look like it just comes from an inverter?)
I wonder if it is possible to have it "black box" as concerns all components covered and hidden from view EXCEPT for the batteries. Then we can monitor each battery:
1. Voltage before starting AND during the entire run.
2. Current through the wire hooked to the battery.
3. Temperature of the batteries, and of the hook-up wires.If they won't allow this for some reason, we could have wires hooked to the batteries that come out of the box so we can monitor the voltage continuously, and hopefully the current (to and from the battery pack).
We should also be allowed in that case a temperature probe ON each battery and the TK probe's wire coming out to our temperature monitors.
We can remind Mr Potter that our endorsement will go a long ways in establishing his credibility - and sales!
Any other ideas for DEFINITIVELY testing a "black box"?
Steve
Yes it is a very good sign ,and an opportunity for all of us .[the Planet]
The only thing I will ask here , since this is a public thread, that the comments be kept
respectful and specific to the Task .[TEST PROTOCOL}
This test will be privately funded and will not be attached to any organization or special interest groups .
No agenda other than a fair and proper test.
respectfully
Chet
The two heaters approach is a good idea provided they are priorly measured and characterized and can be run on the exact voltage they were measured at. Then you will only need a timer.
Short of that you will need a "kill a watt" meter for each heater since most "kill a watt meters" are only good for up to 15 amps (P3 International).
A 1500 Watt heater at 120 volts line will draw about 12.5 Amps.
Using two "kill A Watt" meters you don't need a separate timer unless there is a momentary power fail, upon which the P3's will not remember the elapsed kWhr. Other types have built in batteries for memory and can stay alive during a brownout.
Monitoring the battery voltage to observe rundown and estimate reserve capacity would be a good idea as suggested, but I doubt that it would be allowed.
It would be a good idea to get an rough estimate of the battery capacity before the test based on approximate size and kWhr rating.
Does anyone recognize the size / type / kWhr rating of those batteries?
Try... https://lazycackle.com/Convert_from_Ah_to_KWh___Online_Calculator.html
I'm very familiar with the 4 & 8D. Two of the 8D's in series are used to start diesel generators up to and around 1200 hp.
Not something you will find on many workbenches.
Yes , a pair of those 8D's will put out around 6.12 kW for one hour and run some of the small stuff seen in the video for much longer.
I use some of those big boys in my electric tractor.
Quote from: ION on 2014.11.03, 18:20:57
Yes , a pair of those 8D's will put out around 6.12 kW for one hour and run some of the small stuff seen in the video for much longer.
I use some of those big boys in my electric tractor.
Dear ION.
I agree with your statement however I personally would say that on the wirings appearance only one of the two batteries is doing the hard work !
As an aside, It is great news that Mr Potter will allow some tests to be made, roll on December. :)
Cheers Grum.
Quote from: ION on 2014.11.03, 16:33:36
The two heaters approach is a good idea provided they are priorly measured and characterized and can be run on the exact voltage they were measured at. Then you will only need a timer.
Having done substantial testing for the USEPA, you will definitely need a baseline comparison running in real-time along with the test. We use to create documents referred to as LOI (Letters of Instruction); in this document may I suggest we run two more identical heaters connected to grid power and use at least IR meters monitoring all four heaters. Temperature checks need to be documented at least every minute. A scanning protocol set in place where heater A, B, C, D is checked up to 15 seconds, then move to the next one and repeat the cycle until the test is completed. It will be a tedious process, but if done properly will give indisputable evidence as to the performance of the device with a resistive load bank.
For the DC side:
A clamp on DC amp meter would be useful to measure battery current, unless there is already a known value shunt in the battery line that can be measured.
Also, a quality DC meter to keep an eye on battery voltage.
A infra red laser type thermometer would be handy to read the temperature of the inverter and batteries and other objects in order to later calculate dissipation although contact measurement would be better.
Quote from: ION on 2014.11.03, 16:33:36
The two heaters approach is a good idea provided they are priorly measured and characterized and can be run on the exact voltage they were measured at. Then you will only need a timer.
Short of that you will need a "kill a watt" meter for each heater since most "kill a watt meters" are only good for up to 15 amps (P3 International).
A 1500 Watt heater at 120 volts line will draw about 12.5 Amps.
Using two "kill A Watt" meters you don't need a separate timer unless there is a momentary power fail, upon which the P3's will not remember the elapsed kWhr. Other types have built in batteries for memory and can stay alive during a brownout.
I have a couple of kill-a-watt meters, but also two Intertek meters. These do NOT reset with power failure; one has to push a recessed reset button. Also, they read energy down to 0.001 kW-hours, which is pretty good.
Quote
Monitoring the battery voltage to observe rundown and estimate reserve capacity would be a good idea as suggested, but I doubt that it would be allowed.
It would be a good idea to get an rough estimate of the battery capacity before the test based on approximate size and kWhr rating.
Does anyone recognize the size / type / kWhr rating of those batteries?
I hope it would be allowed! to monitor the voltage across the terminals of EACH battery separately, during a muli-hour test. I would push for that, even if GDS hooked up wires to the terminals, marked them, then brought them out through the casing/door of the "black box" so we could monitor the voltages. I think we need that for sure, to do a definitive test - which should also be in the interest of GDS.
As mentioned before, temperature measurements would be very important. I have both thermocouple and IR (non-contact) equipment.
--Steve
PS -- Is this the max we can expect for the pair of batteries?
Quotea pair of those 8D's will put out around 6.12 kW for one hour and run some of the small stuff seen in the video for much longer.
So for TWO batteries, max is about 6.12 kW-hours? is that right?
Yes if they are the 8D's rated at a max of 255 ampere hours, whether used in series or parallel it comes out to around 6.12 kWHr
From a more critical viewpoint it would seem everyone is moving in the wrong direction.
Critical thinking:
Evaluate the information + Evaluate our Thoughts = a Refined Thought Process
What information?, the GDS system appears to be identical to the James Hardy system and following the time line we could assume the GDS is a copy of the Hardy system. A water pump driving a water turbine both connected to one another physically (water) and electrically(an electric current). Logically we should examine the Hardy system which may be the source of the GDS technology.
"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." - Albert Einstein
Evaluating our thoughts, as Tommy pointed out when we see the system we see a motor driving a generator and our mind determines that it is no different than a motor driving a generator through a belt. However this is a false premise because water is not a belt, they are not the same so what is the "difference"?.
Critical Observations concerning the source, the James Hardy system
1) The water tank is turbulent and full of bubbles when in operation, the clear tube feeding the nozzle is white and filled with water and air bubbles. Thus we could assume air bubbles may play a role...How?
2)Cavitation, a water pump will cavitate cyclically under the influence of air unloading the motor driving it cyclically.
3)The turbine disk has the blades set a large distance apart...why?. If the blades are set a distance apart then the force from the water hitting the blades on the disk must be periodic ie cyclic.
4)Evaluating our thoughts and putting it all together, the pump cavitates cyclically due to the air bubbles unloading the pump physically which must then unload the generator driving it electrically. Thus we have two systems which are cyclic in their nature. A physical system of 1)a Pump, Water,Turbine and an electrical system 2)Pump motor, an electric current, Generator.
5)Creative Solutions:
Now if this system is no different than a motor driving a generator directly through a belt then logically we can assume it cannot work based on past experience and knowledge. So why has everyone completely ignored the simple observations made above in points 1 through 4?. Why has nobody evaluated there thoughts concerning the simple observations made above. The fact remains that a non-working system is pointless and yet everyone seems bound and determined to prove in their mind that it cannot work...Why?. Why would we not Observe critically, Evaluate the information we observe then Evaluate our thoughts concerning the information we have?.
Why wouldn't we promote creative thoughts to find a workable solution rather than negative thoughts to prove to ourselves it cannot work leaving us right back where we started?.
My creative solution is simple and obvious, Physically the pump cavitates due to the air bubbles in the tank and about the same time a slug of water strikes a blade on the turbine/generator. Thus Electrically the pump motor unloads due to cavitation increasing the voltage/lowering the current and about the same time the generator speed increases due to a slug of water striking a turbine blade which increases the voltage/increases current. It would seem we may have a cyclic condition whereby the pump motor unloads about the same time as the generator loads and in the next cycle the pump motor may load about the same time as the generator unloads. Electrically the phrase (about the same time) above relates to the phase differential at the motor and generator as well as the difference between them. I won't go into it here as it gets a little complicated however I imagine some here may understand what I'm getting at. Think of water impulses moving forward in the system which creates electrical impulses moving backwards in the system cyclically. This may explain why we need water in the system versus a simple motor driving a generator directly with a belt. Don't make this hard when it should be easy.
As I said it would seem to me most here are bound and determined to prove this wrong and fail in the process. This is not a solution in any sense of the word, we must Observe, Evaluate the information, Evaluate our Thoughts and Refine our Thought Process to find a creative solution.
To be honest I nailed down a pretty solid working premise within 15 minutes of first seeing the Hardy video, such is the power of Critical Thinking.
AC
Quote from: ION on 2014.11.04, 02:00:48
Yes if they are the 8D's rated at a max of 255 ampere hours, whether used in series or parallel it comes out to around 6.12 kWHr
OK - so we really need to know just what kind of batteries they are using BEFORE begin testing.
This should not be privileged info.
AC - your premise seems logical enough - but do you agree that empirical testing would be important?
@Physicsprof
QuoteAC - your premise seems logical enough - but do you agree that empirical testing would be important?
I would think it would be a necessity, I would measure the output power (volt/amps) relative to the only other energy source seen which is the battery power(volt/amps). Another person was correct in that a large resistance load should be used on the output to negate the effects of reactance (XC,XL). The battery amp/hr is a non-issue in my opinion if the in/out power of the batteries is already being measured. A good oscilloscope should be used to integrate the volt/amp readings into average or mean power from the batteries. I would use a hall effect current sensor for isolation purposes as well as measuring battery voltage at the terminal.
The measurement protocols are pretty straight forward in my opinion.
AC
AC- "I would use a hall effect current sensor for isolation purposes as well as measuring battery voltage at the terminal."
Good ideas. Can you tell me - how accurate is a hall effect current sensor - and does it need to be adjacent to the wire hooked to the battery? IOW, how would one calibrate the sensor in this case?
Where available at a reasonable price?
Measuring the output power is relatively easy with simple electric-resistance heaters as I noted initially.
Note:
I would also keep track of water usage and any water dripping anywhere... Doesn't hurt to be thorough.
Earlier I mentioned a DC clamp on amp meter. Some of these use a Hall Effect sensor and the better ones have decent accuracy, no need to calibrate. Of course for highest accuracy nothing will be better than a good temperature compensated CSR in the current loop , but the better quality DC clamp on meters will do for this test.
http://www.myflukestore.com/category/fluke_clamp_meters?gclid=CKbIqtSn4sECFW8V7AodtkoAAQ
@PhysicsProf
QuoteGood ideas. Can you tell me - how accurate is a hall effect current sensor - and does it need to be adjacent to the wire hooked to the battery? IOW, how would one calibrate the sensor in this case?
Where available at a reasonable price?
This is only my opinion but current shunts are a disaster with ground loops and I never use them...ever. I also have many AC/DC clamp meters however I do question there accuracy because I pre-calibrate everything with a known current source over a wide range. I use the Allegro hall effect current sensors in series with the source with a micro-regulated power supply of my design to reduce noise. I have the 0-50A, 100A and 200A sensors on hand and they are pretty awesome considering the isolation voltage is around 3000v. As well most off the shelf devices can only handle conventional signals and non-uniform signals mess them up so I use my scope to calculate power on minor stuff and program my own micro-controllers for the serious work. Calibration is the key here, calibrate with a known current source over the expected range so we know were we stand before we take any measurements.
Now imagine you are using a shunt with on a low voltage circuit and it jumps into a HF/HV oscillation generating 1000's of volts in micro-seconds...good-by Mr.oscilloscope.
hope for the best but plan for the worst, lol.
AC
Quote from: Allcanadian on 2014.11.05, 01:56:37
hope for the best but plan for the worst, lol.
AC
Dear All.
Whilst I understand the need for " rigour " dear Mr Potter may only allow the team access to the socket outlets!!
Surely, a simple endurance test would suffice ? Plug in a three bar electric fire via an electronic KWh meter and run the ***t out of it for 8 hrs or so!! :) That alone would suggest a 24 KWh capability, way beyond ION's 6.5 KWh.
Aking.21 told me about the time TK demonstrated the Aquarium device, after about 20 mins everybody got bored senseless!! " Worse than watching paint dry " I am sure that carrying out a list of tests would relieve the boredom, but using AC's quote above, maybe a good book should be part of the test equipment!! :)
Cheers Grum.
Quote from: Grumage on 2014.11.05, 13:43:28
Dear All.
Whilst I understand the need for " rigour " dear Mr Potter may only allow the team access to the socket outlets!!
Surely, a simple endurance test would suffice ? Plug in a three bar electric fire via an electronic KWh meter and run the ***t out of it for 8 hrs or so!! :) That alone would suggest a 24 KWh capability, way beyond ION's 6.5 KWh.
...
Aren't you just ruling out the use of Lithium batteries?
Are we just testing for non-conventional batteries?
We want to test for a novel, non-galvanic energy source, IMO.
Sterling wrote to me, proposing a long run on the GDS to preclude the use of lithium batteries.
I replied:
QuoteSterling,
Isn't your proposed test just ruling out the use of Lithium batteries?
Would not your proposed test leave open the possibility of new, non-lithium batteries?
We want to test for a novel, non-galvanic energy source, IMO; not just rule out the use of lithium batteries.
I propose - At the 110-V plugs, we can measure power-out in a straightforward way, using a resistive-heater load (say two resistive heaters, total load at 3kW) and kill-a-Watt meters or equivalent -- at least two watt and watt-hour meters. I also want to look at the output voltage waveform -- to see how it ripples. It would be nice to look at the output power (V(t) * I(t) waveform) and see how that ripples.
The power coming from (or to) the battery pack is more difficult to measure, IMO, we need access at least to at least one wire leading to each battery terminal, so we can measure the current flow (e.g., using a clamp-on DC-current Hall probe), and an oscilloscope to see how it ripples. One would also like to monitor the voltage across each battery as a function of time (V(t)).
That is, if we and GDS seek for definitive tests and certification!
---Steven Jones
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2014.11.05, 14:29:39
Aren't you just ruling out the use of Lithium batteries?
Are we just testing for non-conventional batteries?
We want to test for a novel, non-galvanic energy source, IMO.
Dear PhysicsProf.
I am with you 100%, but I think you missed my point. Mr Potter may provide limited access to the device.
A simple long distance run would rule out your first two points above, and I assume then the device falls into the third category?
Cheers Grum.
My point is -- if he wants a definitive test of the DEVICE, then we need access to the batteries (terminals and wires connected to them).
Are the batteries secret? shouldn't be!
He can hide/cover everything else, but if he wants a DEFINITIVE test and certification, we need access to the batteries and (of course) to the outlet plugs.
@Grumage
QuoteWhilst I understand the need for " rigour " dear Mr Potter may only allow the team access to the socket outlets!!
There lies the real question doesn't it and a little forethought may go a long way. If I were to do this I would state before hand that I am not here to measure the output I am here to verify the device works as claimed. As such protocols need to be established and agreed upon before anyone does anything. ie...Here is what I need to measure, here is where I need to take my measurements, here is how I will take my measurements and these are the instruments I will use.
One person would conduct all the tests and they would sign an NDA in agreement with the wishes of the inventor. I have been down this road a few times in the past and it's not all that complicated so long as everyone is on the same page from the start. I should also note that I made it very clear from the beginning that I must be the neutral party present and it was not my job to prove anything one way or another. My job was to verify the claims made as best I could without bias.
AC
Very well said, AC.
QuoteThere lies the real question doesn't it and a little forethought may go a long way. If I were to do this I would state before hand that I am not here to measure the output I am here to verify the device works as claimed. As such protocols need to be established and agreed upon before anyone does anything. ie...Here is what I need to measure, here is where I need to take my measurements, here is how I will take my measurements and these are the instruments I will use.
One person would conduct all the tests and they would sign an NDA in agreement with the wishes of the inventor. I have been down this road a few times in the past and it's not all that complicated so long as everyone is on the same page from the start. I should also note that I made it very clear from the beginning that I must be the neutral party present and it was not my job to prove anything one way or another. My job was to verify the claims made as best I could without bias.
AC
I don't like NDA's though; having been burnt before. For example, if in three months he goes into production so anyone can buy one and LOOK INSIDE, of what value is loss of freedom of speech at that point?
So if I were to sign an NDA, it would be limited in time.
Some Thoughts
The device has been viewed 70,000 times [or more] on the net. to assume there would be an issue with a quick look into the Box
would be Odd .covers can be placed over sensitive areas,however it must be noted,
The device is going to be shipped to customers shortly after......
the device has been offered to Ship [shipping weight ??] [we can weigh it]
some of the obvious things
Steve has said the test will be certified
ALL equipment associated with this test of course mandates a certified calibration as well as all loads associated with this test.
Regarding batteries ,I used to Have a converted Greyhound buss that I ran around doing engineering and architectural seminars in NYC
it had a huge battery bank [6 times the batteries of this GDS device]
I could only run a big load 3000-5000 watts] for 15 minutes before I had to start the generator.
Batteries will run at their design load in a specific design window ,if you "Cook" them the game changes immediately.
Thx
Chet
PS
I see Steve posted while I was posting
I am putting this in a separate post for a reason.
in this case "Black Box" implies M.O. of the device
Not a physical Black Box.
No working principal will be discussed [black box]
just a certified test of claims.
Sorry for the confusion.
respectfully
Chet
@PhysicsProf
QuoteI don't like NDA's though; having been burnt before. For example, if in three months he goes into production so anyone can buy one and LOOK INSIDE, of what value is loss of freedom of speech at that point?
So if I were to sign an NDA, it would be limited in time.
I understand your dilemma completely as I have been there many times. However I understood from the start that I was the sacrificial lamb, I was the independent neutral party who was willing to negate all my personal needs and interests to fulfill my agreement for the benefit of both parties. Which raises the question...how can one get "burnt" doing exactly what they said they would do?. How can one agree to something in principal and then feel cheated because they are expected to honor their agreement?.
I understand this may be the way of the world but I do not buy into this absurd notion when people say they are a man of integrity until it does not suit their needs in which case they are not so much...I mean really?. My belief is that I should act like a "responsible adult" and be honest with myself first and I do not fulfill my agreements for them I do it for me. I do it so I know despite all the BS and deception and greed all around me I remain true to myself, as my wife often say's--"it's all about you isn't it"?, well yes as a matter of fact it is, lol.
Personally I find this kind of thing comical because all the supposed responsible adults in the room are acting like little children in a candy store. You have to see the humor in their ridiculous behavior to really appreciate it, lol. I just keep telling myself... not my circus...not my monkeys.
AC
AC
Quote
Personally I find this kind of thing comical because all the supposed responsible adults in the room are acting like little children in a candy store. You have to see the humor in their ridiculous behavior to really appreciate it, lol. I just keep telling myself... not my circus...not my monkeys.
---------------------------------------
Sir
Excuse my lack of comprehension as to the "jist " of your above quote.
are you addressing the Persons here in this thread?
or some past life experience?
respectfully
Chet
Quote from: Chet K on 2014.11.06, 16:57:14
AC
Quote
Personally I find this kind of thing comical because all the supposed responsible adults in the room are acting like little children in a candy store. You have to see the humor in their ridiculous behavior to really appreciate it, lol. I just keep telling myself... not my circus...not my monkeys.
---------------------------------------
Sir
Excuse my lack of comprehension as to the "jist " of your above quote.
are you addressing the Persons here in this thread?
or some past life experience?
respectfully
Chet
Dear Chet.
I too had similar thoughts!! To whom are you referring?
Cheers Grum.
3kW is low output for such big generator :o
Quote from: forest on 2014.11.06, 19:24:11
3kW is low output for such big generator :o
Do you mean, compared to a gasoline-powered generator?
@Chet
QuoteSir
Excuse my lack of comprehension as to the "jist " of your above quote.
are you addressing the Persons here in this thread?
or some past life experience?
Your warm, I started trying to explain to Prof how difficult it is to juggle confidentiality versus the freedom of information then I went into a rant about my past experiences testing OU devices which were not so wonderful. So no it was not directed at anyone here I was just howling at the moon again. I do that a lot by the way in case you haven't noticed, lol.
AC
AC
thank you for the explanation.
sometimes Howling can be very tempting
it just gets me into trouble....
Chet
GDS has put up on their website further claims, and call for distributors. (Available at the GDS website and re-pub'd at PESN.)
Quote
The following has been posted on the home page at http://www.gdstechnologies.ca/ The previous home page content can be accessed by clicking on the "visit main site" link at the bottom of the page.
I'm copying it here, both to bring your attention to it, and to chronicle the development of this company.
- Attention -
At this time, we will only be selling to distributors that we have approved.
We are extremely excited by the recent interest in our generators – excited but not surprised. Although we have been offered a substantial sum to share our technology with others, our goal has always been, and will continue to be, to manufacture a world-class, portable, water-powered generators.
We are proud to announce that we have now set in place the capacity and equipment necessary to commence the production levels required to meet the incredible international demand for our products. We have protected our invention by the international intellectual property protection required to protect our technology (see attachment). We did not wish to complete the patent process as the first step of protection as we did not want our incredible product to be suppressed or delayed to the public in anyway. GDS 5000 production will commence immediately. Our planned production schedule includes a three shift operation, running seven days a week at a plant located in Ontario. Our schedule has been prepared with the expectation of meeting the anticipated demand of up to 50,000 units per month. Approximately 85% of the final product is assembled in our plant using an automated production system. Product availability starting mid January, by the end of March we will finish the first 50,000 units. Our call center will accommodate English, French and Spanish.
TESTING
We have proceeded with all the necessary steps to obtain all certificates for the electrical safety codes for North America and Europe, other countries will take approximately 3 weeks.
DELIVERY
Contact your delivery service and give all sizes and weight of the generator and our address to receive a quote from your provider.
We and we alone control the worldwide rights to our property. Please note that it is a criminal offense should anyone attempt to copy our design for either their personal or resale use.
To all the people that have been waiting for this technology it's finally here! This technology opens the door for many opportunities for the future.
We would like to thank everyone for your emails, phone calls, patience and support.
At this time, we will only be selling to distributors that we have approved. If you would like to be a distributor for GDS Technologies LTD here is what we need to know:
1) What City, State, Country that you would like to cover
2) Wiring requirements, if you require 50/60 Hz
3) Which models you would like to sell, and how many you would like to order in your first order.
We will then decide who is going to join our distributor team.
Email Inquiries to: distributors@gdstechnologies.ca
Management Team
GDS Technologies LTD
1(905) 576-4888