....when they are made into pendulums !
TinMan presented a highly interesting video in the related EZ Spin motor bench thread.
It can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9jj45CJsVk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9jj45CJsVk)
Within which, he showed and described the circuit. Seems that it's the same circuit as his Cool Joule !
That dolphin has been running for 17 years on one alkaline 9V battery :o
Well, let's have a go at emulating, simulating, building something similar..with OU potential ?
It relates to the EZ Spin, because the collapsing coil energy is returned back out to the driving battery without any extra components to do so.
My idea, is to replicate the circuit function and also to pick up induced energy if possible. Collection may be by the action of the pendulum swinging over pick up coils or some other energy harvesting method.
Lessons learned can hopefully forward the EZ Spin project.
This project is tentatively named the Penduphin :)
To start with, I found some house copper in the shed and bent up/fashioned a support for a cradle to go on to. In the cradle will be tried various sizes and strengths of magnet(s).
A Dollar Tree 'dancing devil' was taken apart and its internals now run the pendulum. Indeed, it's own ceramic magnet sits in the water bottle top derived cradle.
All is mounted on an ex kitchen tile as a good heavy base.
Next up, will be to wire 2x 500ohm coils and a C945 transistor in the same config as Brad's dolphin.
Then different transistors, powering sources, magnet types. then harvesting.
And, yeah, i'll straighten that copper support a bit.
Here is that first run:
Very cool! O0 I like the way you build things, test them, then iterate and improve.
Brief note on the physics of the pendulum, from the EZ spin thread:
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2015.01.27, 01:48:57
Mark - keep in mind while doing the replication, if you can think how any energy floating around can be re-captured, that's a good goal. IOW, the coil fly-back, is that being recaptured? perhaps the return swing of the pendulum also...
I like the simple pendulum action... there is already a type of resonance there, as the period P is well defined and depends on the length L of the pendulum (from pivot point = low friction!) to the center of mass of the mass M (in this case, magnet).
Note that the period of the motion T is simply:
P = 2*pi*sqrt{L/g}
plugging in 9.81m/sec^2 for g, we find to a good approximation:
P = 2*sqrt(L) in SI units.
So if L=1m, then the period is
P = 2 seconds, since sqrt(1) is just 1.
If L=25cm = 1/4 m, then
P = 2*sqrt(1/4) = 1 second.
The period is the time for round-trip, out and back, returning to the same spot.
The shorter the "string", the shorter the Period - but it does not depend on the mass of the pendulum at all! just depends on the length L of the pendulum.
(I added a little for clarity.)
Again, I like the use of the pendulum motion and picking up the fly-back energy.
I wish I could find the swinging-dolphin toy like Tinman has, but they don't appear to be available anywhere anymore... Its remarkable that it kept swinging 17 years - and then the battery still showed 9V!
There are lots of variations that could be done with your set-up, Mark! Bifilar coil, change the length L, pick-up coils, add a coupled pendulum,etc... fun stuff.
Dear Steve.
There are currently two items on eBay UK, USA sellers available at what here in the UK would be considered cheap! Postal costs prohibit a purchase!
Title.Magnetic Continuos Swinging Dolphin.
Hope this helps?
Cheers Graham.
Grum
With your mechanical skills, I can see you building a large device with perhaps a one oz or one lb pendulum bob oscillating on a nice bearing.
This will get your signal well above the noise floor, making measurements easier. If (big ?) there is any excess energy it will be noticeable.
Quote from: ION on 2015.01.28, 13:30:01
Grum
With your mechanical skills, I can see you building a large device with perhaps a one oz or one lb pendulum bob oscillating on a nice bearing.
This will get your signal well above the noise floor, making measurements easier. If (big ?) there is any excess energy it will be noticeable.
Dear ION.
The thought had crossed my mind but as I see it, it is just a single element of " he who shall remain nameless " SSG device.
If TinMan's wife's decoration is anything to go by it would seem old JB was on the money right from the start!!
However, if anyone thinks this might have further merit I would certainly consider a build. One of my hobbies is of an Horological nature, I have well over 20 clocks that were made in the USA, the primary catalyst for the term " Mass Production "!!
Cheers Grum.
Quote from Grum
QuoteIf TinMan's wife's decoration is anything to go by it would seem old JB was on the money right from the start!!
I think you will find that J_Bhoudini is more "in the money stream of the FE circus" than "on the money"
Steve - On looking at your formula yesterday, I wondered what the example 2 seconds total time would mean for string length. Found a bobbin of cotton and then superglued a ceramic magnet to the cotton end. By timing with the seconds ticking on a clock, it was found that the length would need to be 26".
Whether true or not, i've read that the longer the pendulum length, the less that negative build factors matter.
Hence, I decided to go with smaller while building up and testing and then will improve as things go along :)
ION - Some say JB did have a fully OU idea, in that it's lasted far longer than it should have. We're not his market so, really, no problems in my opinion, except the prices for things like crystal cells. Much like Tesla motors, shouldn't they bring out something of a bargain, to get the wheels rolling in large numbers ?
He kindly publicly acknowledged my prior work with rejuvenating gel type 12V lead/acid batteries when that was touted, so there's no personal axe at all and respect was gained. Another view is that he's like one of those very interesting RexResearch historical footnotes, who's still around and building :)
Grum - I like the idea of your possible mechanical larger sized build. Any build of mine tends to be SMD (somewhat micro dimensions).
Did find this listing on Ebay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Magnetic-Continuous-Swinging-Dolphin-Desktop-Collectible-Gift-NEW-/281562642790
It takes a 9V battery too.
Maybe an idea, is to actually copy the balancing and sizing of Brads dolphin, rather than redraw and redesign something that is known to run for 17 years ???
In that way of thinking - shouldn't these things push on the downward swing, the literal 'kid on a swing' method ?
The electromagnet itself is positioned (in car terms) at TDC and should be advanced a few degrees.
Just had another look at that Ebay listing.
If our car was running right I could run and collect it LOL
Fort Smith is only about 30 miles away !
Quote from: Grumage on 2015.01.28, 11:00:51
Dear Steve.
There are currently two items on eBay UK, USA sellers available at what here in the UK would be considered cheap! Postal costs prohibit a purchase!
Title.Magnetic Continuos Swinging Dolphin.
Hope this helps?
Cheers Graham.
OK -- we've got it! I went ahead, before I read any further, and purchased it. Looks exactly like TinMan's! errr... TinMan's wife's dolphins.
More options here, btw:
https://www.justdolphins.com/shop/category/dolphin-kinetics/
So one way or the other, we'll SHARE -- that's the principle I live by!
Thanks, Grum and Slider and TinMan!
Congrats! A good historical note in research too.
I like how that site says 'perpetual motion' and, really, who can argue with 17 years and still going ^-^
Btw, the original name for this build was to have been The Thunder Gods Weapon of Paradigm Destruction, but, it's not exactly a manly looking device is it lol
I've changed the design now to be an emulation of Brads wife's device. Am shaping the pieces at the moment.
The circuit was tried and does work, except the basket rocked around too much. The coils emit a high pitched note on each magnet pass. Current was measured to be 10mA.
Here's the second build, more in keeping with the design of the original rocking dolphins.
Quick video to show it running.
Next will be some added top weight, in the hopes of improving the pendulum effect, without adding ferrite.
If the balancing weight doesn't do much, ferrite will be added.
It runs, so it's a start :)
Quote from: Slider2732 on 2015.01.29, 05:01:56
Here's the second build, more in keeping with the design of the original rocking dolphins.
Quick video to show it running.
Next will be some added top weight, in the hopes of improving the pendulum effect, without adding ferrite.
If the balancing weight doesn't do much, ferrite will be added.
It runs, so it's a start :)
The strange noise you refer to is the circuit self oscillating. The swinging dolphins circuit dose not self oscillate for some reason, and this probably the reason for the extreem long running time on one battery. Are you using the same transistor Mark?. Maybe the one in the dolfin toy has a built in diode to stop the self oscillatin?.
It works, Mark! O0 And that's a good start.
Attached is a photo of the pendulum-dolphins toy that i purchased earlier today.
Tinman-- can you take a close look -- is this exactly like yours? or at least similar?
Also, I note that Mark measured the current draw with his pendulum yesterday at (IIRC) 10 mA.
If you ever open up your dolphin -resonator again, pls measure the current draw, would you Tinman? that would be interesting to measure.
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2015.01.29, 05:33:08
It works, Mark! O0 And that's a good start.
Attached is a photo of the pendulum-dolphins toy that i purchased earlier today.
Tinman-- can you take a close look -- is this exactly like yours? or at least similar?
Also, I note that Mark measured the current draw with his pendulum yesterday at (IIRC) 10 mA.
If you ever open up your dolphin -resonator again, pls measure the current draw, would you Tinman? that would be interesting to measure.
Its much the same Steve, my wifes one has the two dolphins side by side-not opposite each other like yours-but you can bet its the same base and drive unit.
I will do a current messurement when I get back from my three day trip-I scored the long run this week with work, but the weather is very nice down this end of the state ATM. Only 1200km to go, and im home in time for the weekend.
OK, great - thanks, Tinman. O0 I'll look forward to that.
Wishing you a safe drive also. I've visited Sydney in 2009 -- one of the most beautiful places on the planet!
Indeed, safe travels Brad, Chet mentioned that you basically haul a train around ! 7 or 8 or something trailers on the back of a truck :o
Yep, it's a C945 transistor, same as the dolphin pendulum.
There is a point to thinking in terms of Base sensitivity and turn on voltage, which will form a round of tests.
This is highly fascinating, Lidmotor posted the original Patent from 1974 on Brads video:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3783550.pdf
Within which, it discusses the circuit and operation thereof.
Described is also what became the 'Top Secret', which you may remember Steve. A spinning top on a black base. There is a nub in the middle of the base that stops it going exactly over the coil and so it seems to bounce around the area randomly, for weeks at a time.
The speed of that rotation gives a 9V battery running time of only a few weeks, as opposed to the years of the much slower moving dolphin type devices.
More pulse firings, faster depletion.
My view, is that the maximum collected energy, post firing and the ability to capture, are the important parts to a chase for OU. Not just super long running, but energy output over that required to run the device.
A fast speed would need fast collection, but a slower speed could allow for easier calibrations and easier evaluations of scavenging routes. Of course, faster speed will bring with it more collection from anything pickup coil related...a fine line ?
This morning saw lots of tests with balancing weights, distances from the fulcrum etc.
I'd be interested to know whether the dolphins sit balanced directly above the coil ?
It seems there is either an attract or repel mode, but both result in the magnet bobbling either next to, or right on top of the coil after no more than a couple of minutes.
Non firing at rest is probably where this one is wrong !
It also sometimes needs extra capacitance on the transistor to begin oscillations...fires up similarly to the Cool Joule, with a screwdriver touch on the transistor if it doesn't auto start.
Quote from: Slider2732 on 2015.01.29, 19:33:50
This is highly fascinating, Lidmotor posted the original Patent from 1974 on Brads video:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3783550.pdf
Within which, it discusses the circuit and operation thereof.
Described is also what became the 'Top Secret', which you may remember Steve. A spinning top on a black base. There is a nub in the middle of the base that stops it going exactly over the coil and so it seems to bounce around the area randomly, for weeks at a time.
OOOhhhh :o
Dose this mean that this circuit is NOT the invention of john boo-dini C.C
I'm pretty sure that he didn't have the circuit of this running anything back in 74 ???. Have we just discovered that this circuit is NOT the work of JB?>
Well i hit the road at 2am this morning,and now home nice and early. Doing that current draw test for you Steve,and will upload the video ASAP. Also decided to do a run time test useing the 30 000uf cap bank i used to smooth out the pulses for the current draw test. The current draw is about 800 to 900 uA-just under 1mA O0
As it is 42*C here at the moment,i have just left the dolphins swinging away,and will go check every 5 min's or so-->42*C just a little warm to remain in the workshop,as it has a tin roof.
I've been sprung :-\
Wife came home early,and caught me red handed lol. But all is good O0-as long as i dont break it she says.
So seen as im on a roll here,i hit her up for her plazma ball for a few experiments O0. Dose any one know if a strong magnet near the plazma balls outer edge will hurt it in any way? :-\
Anyway,here is the video of the current draw test,and run time on 30 000uf at 9v.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9YQcRxTl90
Once the temp has droped,im hitting the workshop,as i believe i can do much better than this dolphin toy's efficiency-i have a 10 000 ohm coil im wanting to try on a pendulum setup O0
I have no idea as to how many mA hours a 9v battery can deliver,but regardless,17 odd years seems way to long looking at how fast it use the energy stored in the 30 000uf cap bank :-\
I asked my wife again if she remembers changing the battery,and she still insist that she hasnt changed it-->more still,she said she dosnt even know what battery it takes lol.
I cannot detect any energy return to the battery-even on the scope,so im really stuck on this one.
Dear Brad.
Re, Plazma lamp.
I used a small conical one for experimentation into some of Don Smiths ideas. I found that a rolled Aluminium cover could be placed over the glass envelope and HV Diodes placed anywhere could provide me with a few Kilovolts. Over time a corner of the Ali cover made a hot spot that finally penetrated the glass rendering it useless!
Funnily enough I never tried looking at what a strong magnetic field would do to the Plazma, but I would suggest not presenting a sharp corner to the glass for prolonged periods.
On a more comical note, I bought a replacement, put it on a shelf for future use, only to be knocked off my my youngest, you guessed it, the Genie escaped !! :)
Cheers Graham.
Quote from: Grumage on 2015.01.30, 11:23:28
Dear Brad.
Re, Plazma lamp.
I used a small conical one for experimentation into some of Don Smiths ideas. I found that a rolled Aluminium cover could be placed over the glass envelope and HV Diodes placed anywhere could provide me with a few Kilovolts. Over time a corner of the Ali cover made a hot spot that finally penetrated the glass rendering it useless!
Funnily enough I never tried looking at what a strong magnetic field would do to the Plazma, but I would suggest not presenting a sharp corner to the glass for prolonged periods.
On a more comical note, I bought a replacement, put it on a shelf for future use, only to be knocked off my my youngest, you guessed it, the Genie escaped !! :)
Cheers Graham.
Well it seems they are quite cheap-about $18.00,so worth a few strong magnetic field test i recon O0.
Anyway,time to go throw together a pendulum setup.
Enjoyed the video Brad, I gained some knowledge that before yesterday wouldn't have known to ask about - the swing itself.
During tests, whatever has been tried has resulted in either a push away to a small distance from the coil or an attract that left it sitting right on top of it. The realisation ? weight ! My assembly is too light !
Watching your video, the magnet goes up further on the swing back than the swing forward.
The weight of the assembly is what is swinging it through the downward interaction and out to be pushed upward further.
I think JB managed to gain a Patent because the use was to charge a battery. His circuit has the protection diode, 2 batteries and a wheel full of magnets rather than 1. It obfuscates very well even if the magnetic switching principle is the same. Would be interesting to see if the examiners included the 1974 Patent in the listed Searches.
A catch up, i've been looking at the Top Secret spinning top toy and fixed it. When attempting a replication some time ago a wire snapped, but it's now repaired and it works fine. It's the same principle and the device itself is right there in the 1974 Patent.
However, this seems to have 6 wires ???
It uses an S8050 transistor, 700mA capable, overkill lol
I made a coil of similar dimensions to the original, to try on it. Used 30AWG and 40AWG that were already bi-filar from a previous project and wound them onto a coil form from an old TV. The form had ferrite down the middle. It hasn't worked, probably due to just 20ohms on the 30AWG, 154ohms on the 40AWG, 900 turns.
Although it didn't work, it was a huge amount of fun after putting a '472' (4.7K) variable pot on the base. The thing makes sci-fi warbling noises when the spinning top is above the coil :D The pot increases the frequency, from about ~8KHz to above audible.
Will try the 'dancing' coils on it for sure today.
I have some 40AWG and will make a coil that's similar to the Patent description drawing, 500 turns and 1500 turns, rather than 1:1 bi-filar.
That coil will also be used on the pendulum, to see if there are differences.
And - the Protek oscilloscope gave a trace signal last night on the pendulum WOOT!
The trace does have a negative dip (will get vid or a pic today).
When I first got it, some of the buttons and switches seemed a bit loose. The 'On' light would go off and on quite randomly too. Then it seemed to only work for detecting mains hum, which was odd. Found that it's got flaky worn pots, because if I move them just right it works. It's just like old audio amps, where you can hear scratching as you move the volume control or something.
Quote slider: It's just like old audio amps, where you can hear scratching as you move the volume control or something.
Then like we did to the old radio's,just a quick squirt with CRC or WD40 dose wonders O0
well there was a plan of getting into the work shop to try my new found 10 000 ohm coil. This i retrieved from an old car ignition coil-it was the secondary. When i conect a 1.5v battery to it,i can actually feel the push against a flat neo magnet 50 x 20 x 3mm.
The current draw is around 150uA. If we have even a high 10% on time,that constant current would drop to around 15uA @ 1.5v O0 . so a 1.5v battery with a 700mAh rateing should last around 46666 hours or 1944 days,or 5.32 years. ???
Even this dosnt add up to the 16+ years run time on the rocking dolphins. I know the 9v battery would have more storage capacity than an everyday 1.5 volt battery,but this much more :o
Good to hear you are continuing on, Mark! great progress. Your learning by experience = a great treasure.
QuoteAnd - the Protek oscilloscope gave a trace signal last night on the pendulum
WOOT!
The trace does have a negative dip (will get vid or a pic today).
Looking forward to the pic... WOOT!
I'll look at the pots when the weather warms a bit, back down to 42F in the house and completely the opposite to your weather Brad :)
Took it apart a year or so back and resoldered a couple of loose pot connections at that time. I think whoever had it pressed the rotary controls with a heavy handed action, rather than gently turned them. Sort of grabbed things, like they would a heater control in a truck !
Thanks Steve. Yes, am delighted to have seen it doing something, anything lol
Btw, here's the non working wound coil for the Top Secret.
Idea was to increase Base resistance with the pot because of the low ohms on the 30AWG.
The low volume warbles have been very informative, for what is going on with magnet interactions.
Good stuff, Mark. O0
I went over to OU, sure enough some old threads on somewhat related tries --
BUT without the push-coil/pick-up coil such as we're using! http://overunity.com/8568/new-magnet-powered-perpetual-motion-machine/105/#.VMu9oVWJOuY
QuoteRe: New magnet powered perpetual motion machine
« Reply #72 on: January 13, 2010, 09:51:01 AM »
Quote
This is great news! I consider Finsrud has been confirmed! It seems that this George Delk from the US has confirmed Reidar Finsrud with the perpetual motion of a pendulum managed with magnets. I will try to replicate this thing to make sure that this is no make-belief. It is inspiring because I always thought that free energy is time energy. Now we have a kind of pendulum clock thing that really runs on time energy and not on batteries, a lifted weight or a wound spring! At present I am at IPMM version 12 where I try to use a clocklike mechanism to run my cakra disc. As yet I have failed with the IPMM to find PM, but this pendulum might do the trick. Looks real enough to me. The question is, if the pendulum works as shown, can it do work then like running a rotor? Is this the replicable PM version we were looking for? We will see...
See my analysis on Finsrud:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9GucVwc36Q
The peswiki thread on this:
http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Perpetual_Magnetic_Pendulum_by_George_Delk
IPMM-thread:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4449.new.html#new
Finsrud overunity discussion:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=18.0;wap2
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=18.45
George Delk Discussion group:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Delk_MP/
Delk's video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZjNbjhxgt4
Five years ago!
A vid towards the end of the thread is fun (note the assistant):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2QsWr5r7PM
Quote from: Slider2732 on 2015.01.28, 17:05:23
Steve - On looking at your formula yesterday, I wondered what the example 2 seconds total time would mean for string length. Found a bobbin of cotton and then superglued a ceramic magnet to the cotton end. By timing with the seconds ticking on a clock, it was found that the length would need to be 26".
Hmmm... should be 1 meter = 39" for a Period P of 2 seconds...
One has to be careful here, because the period changes slowly with length L, that is, as the square root of L.
QuoteNote that the period of the motion T is simply:
P = 2*pi*sqrt{L/g}
plugging in 9.81m/sec^2 for g, we find to a good approximation:
P = 2*sqrt(L) in SI units.
So if L=1m, then the period is
P = 2 seconds, since sqrt(1) is just 1.
If L=25cm = 1/4 m, then
P = 2*sqrt(1/4) = 1 second.
So for 26", I get 26"/39" = 0.67 m ,
P = 2*sqrt (0.67) = 1.63seconds.
To get accuracy at this level, one has to count a number of cycles of the pendulum swing, say 30 cycles.
In this video, the students count 30 complete swings of the pendulum, and get the period as the time for 30 swings divided by 30.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-CUDWndI74
Sure enough, for a 100cm = 1m string length, they find 60seconds/30 = 2 seconds for the period (as noted above).
IOW, 2 seconds for one complete out-and-back swing means a string length of 1 meter = 39 inches (actually 39.37" = 1m).
Dear Steve.
I concur. My 250 year old Grandfather clock has a 1 Metre pendulum bob. Accuracy < 15 seconds per week !!
Not quite Quartz but good enough ! ;)
Cheers Graham.
Oh I stood there like a fool for about half an hour trying out different cotton lengths.
The impression was that a longer length of string was needed than originally thought, having seen pendulums here and there.
Measuring was inexact, approximating the 26" with the 4ft ruler and then thinking that a system would likely need to be much larger than thought.
Also, i'm old skool English and work in feet and inches. If of newer thinking i'd have probably gone for 1 meter by default haha
Fave bet at the moment is with the EZ Spin and remote rotors. This other method though has the attraction of gravity (as it were) and natural null points.
Hmmm...I wonder about a sideways EZ Spin. A vertical wheel motor could use both concepts and yet not be a regular pulse motor. If a couple of these little pieces of sapphire can be held correctly then that would be a good idea.
Have just wound a 1000 + 1000 turn coil of 40AWG around a steel bolt. It was quite the shock to see how thin the resulting coil is !
But, i'll try it, see what happens with the Top Secret and if it does something then try it on the pendulum.
That's a water bottle cap on the right, for scale. They make good end pieces and I left 1 of them intact, to put the transistor and connections inside neatly.
Amazingly small coil for 1000+1000 turns! that must have been a very tedious wind, my friend.
I'm still very curious about the Top Secret -- how does the coil inside give a "kick" to cause the top to spin? Push and pull, like with a pendulum I can understand -- but spinning a top?
And now I'm curious how much current is drawn from the battery also...
It reads as 49ohms for the inner 1000, 98ohms for the outer.
Nothing happened with it either when tried out haha, ah well.
If I combine the 2 windings together and wind a 3rd winding of 1000 as the new second coil, then it will approximate the 157ohms (or so) that Brad measured on his dolphin coil. Both would then be ballpark for running at the correct ohmage.
Tedious indeed and the wish was to avoid that...so i'll try the 2 'dancing' coils next and probably get back to the winding afterward.
The kick is given by the magnet being axial. It's N at one horizontal side, S on the other, rather than top and bottom.
With the nub being in the middle of the concave surface that it sits on, the top can spin next to the coil, but never goes right over it. Such that, any interaction with the coil will cause the spin.
It relates to the merry-go-round thought yesterday, in that to spin up one of those playground rides a person pushes the side framing in the direction of travel.
Will take a measurement of the factory coil running the Top Secret and report back :)
.
.
It uses zero until the magnet comes close to the nub raised area in the middle and then uses up to 9mA while kicking it back out again with extra speed. The usage depends on the rotation speed, with 9mA being the peak recorded after several minutes of running. Meter used was a UNI-T 136B.
I wonder, that seems very similar to the pendulum results, but far different to Brads reading for the dolphin. However, it would be in line if his gear records an average (?).
Wow....Slider, I get the shakes just looking at that coil........whew....glad I didn't have to wind it. :o
James
Haha :)
Y'know, I used to like nothing better than winding a pills bottle sized Tesla coil with ~1000 winds of this stuff, around midnight, listening to the radio. 4 hours of painstaking individual turns.
I do see why drills and fancy jigs are used by many !
Lidmotor has posted a fascinating video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-cl=85114404&x-yt-ts=1422579428&v=RvMpe23owQs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-cl=85114404&x-yt-ts=1422579428&v=RvMpe23owQs)
Within which he shows the 1970's Patent, his own EZ Spin developments and the rejigging of a Top Secret to be a pulse motor.
Also found out that he's been following along here :)
It would seem that I may have an easier time of building a decent coil for the pendulum than thought.
My Top Secret has 6 wires, Lidmotor's has 3. Could it really be that mine is simply double stranded for the coils ?
That would go a long way to finding out why I had trouble replicating a while back, was over thinking it.
Cool Joule (Patrick) has weighed in with a great demonstration of his pendulum circuit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTtgVKRSxnM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTtgVKRSxnM)
Within which he discusses his different type of pendulum, though it has the same exact circuit again.
He runs a pulse motor with the coil and takes some measurements of current used and ability to charge a cap from various points on the circuit. Interestingly, his pulse motor draws in the uA range when running at 6V !
OOOHHHhhhhh
here I have to pull the Knife from TinMans Back....
this Guy took TinMans cool Joule Circuit Name WITHOUT PERMISSION..and made himself Cool Joule on you tube, Poor taste VERY Poor....
I don't think Patrick ever said what happened there, but the funny thing is, we in the groups know the Cool Joule as TinMans circuit. So, in essence, Patrick is an Australian circuit..is that the idea ? lol
smh (posted that acronym for Grumage, from his thread)
A pic is attached Chet, of the setup I was talking about on the phone.
An initially silly idea, but very much being considered now.
What it is, is the hyper efficient Top Secret coil, spinning the larger EZ Spin type setup, which charges the 0.1F capacitor. Removing the coil then allows the motor to spin along on what went into the cap.
With Patrick showing 4uA or some unreasonably similar excellent current usage on his same circuit for his pendulum, we may just be able to link everything up ! I believe the current figure may well be correct, the meter is subtracting the returning coil energy and what it sees is a net draw of those low microamps. Relates to TinMan's own readings...my readings must be a few decimal places short of a full toolbox.
So - here's the plan.
The Top Secret coil powers a rotor, which has pickup coils around it. That generates and passes charge to a much smaller cap. That cap charges up and converted via a blocking oscillator type circuit (or one of Gyula's chips) to the run voltage and goes back into the battery. The run voltage may be 6V, 9V, whatever hits a sweet spot of RPM/input/harvested output.
Additionally, remote rotors run from the magnetic fields otherwise wasted as the rotor spins and their pickup coils also feed into the feedback system
Nothing has an electrical dependency on any other section.
Quote from: Slider2732 on 2015.02.01, 02:36:32
I don't think Patrick ever said what happened there, but the funny thing is, we in the groups know the Cool Joule as TinMans circuit. So, in essence, Patrick is an Australian circuit..is that the idea ? lol
smh (posted that acronym for Grumage, from his thread)
With Patrick showing 4uA or some unreasonably similar excellent current usage on his same circuit for his pendulum, we may just be able to link everything up ! I believe the current figure may well be correct, the meter is subtracting the returning coil energy and what it sees is a net draw of those low microamps. Relates to TinMan's own readings...my readings must be a few decimal places short of a full toolbox.
Yes,the DMM will be averaging current draw,so it is showing the I/in - I/out. Now I'm starting to see why a 9 volt may indeed run this for years on end.
Half way done with my experimental magnet bouncer.
Here we have the EZ Dancer.
A continuation of thoughts, about integrating several different ideas, in the simplest way.
It would also seem that this thread has taken over from the original EZ based thread.
The concept, is to use 'dancing' coils, EZ Spin arrangement of rotor, reed switch, but powered externally.
The EZ Spin does its generating from the other 7 of 8 coils, which are series connected.
Linked to the rotor are remote rotors, each generating in the same way.
Effectively, perhaps 4x EZ Spin setups, with just 1 being powered.
The Top Secret/dolphin coil may result in the most power efficient method to run the device.
Here, though, an original 'dancing' circuit is used, powered by the CFL table light.
Output from the remote rotor is way down, because it has only 2 magnets and is spinning at approx 100RPM, because it is too far from the powered rotor.
However, the output is a very healthy ~355mV and 40uA.
It can be imagined that with a much faster speed developed on the remote rotor(s) that a good increase can be expected.
A simple diode and run storage cap complete the looping picture.
You're certainly right about the EZ spin and Pendulum discussions overlapping, Mark! glad you're looking at both.
Below is the Andrews 1972 circuit, which Lidmotor calls the "super simple circuit". SSC
1. SSC used in both the Dolphin Pendulum and the Top Secret spinner -- correct?
2. It looks like the coil is tapped around the mid-point -- is that correct? why would he do that?
3. How does the pendulum "kick back" energy to the battery with this SSC? I don't see how that works.
4. Is the SSC more efficient than the EZ spin circuit?
Below is Andrews' Fig 11 -- a variant on SSC with two transistors.
What device is this? I like the core connecting the two separate coils... starting to look like magnetic-pulse delay, at least one could think of doing that...
Also, where to find Andrews' patent like Lidmotor did?
PS -- I think Lidmotor gave a nice compliment to Slider and also Tinman... O0
The Patent is on the previous page Steve, though was wrapped in a long-ish post.
Here's the direct link: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3783550.pdf
1. Yep, the same configuration of circuit is used in both the dolphin pendulum and the Top Secret.
2. About 1/4 of the turns is the point at which the coil is tapped. The transistor is connected backwards to many popular circuits, in that the Emitter is driving the coil with pulses. The Collector is connected to the Negative of the power supply. The rest of the winding is picking up through induction and supplying the Base of the transistor.
What we have, is a system which only needs the induction to occur, for the transistor to switch on and the coil to energize. The speed of the magnetic interaction governs the speed of transistor switching.
With such high ohm coils, there is no need for a resistor in the circuit.
3. When the transistor fires it energizes the section of coil connected to the Emitter of the transistor and battery Positive. After firing, that section of coil collapses and the returning energy is sent through the transistor back to the battery. Not 100% on this, but I believe it can do so by using the inbuilt Emitter/Base diode.
4. The EZ Spin can run on mV, the Top Secret or dolphins use 9V generally but will run with lower voltages. Horses for courses really...both are excellent power misers. There will be less charging ability within the EZ Spin setup, yet it needs less to run.
If at the end of the day we are looking at rotor speed, then the EZ Spin needs less generated power.
Fig11 -
What we seem to have there is a circuit for a N/S/N/S rotor, that can drive another motor or other connected device.
In the wiring of the coils, the lower ends are connected together, reversing the coil polarity. Such that, a North and a South magnet can both be used on the rotor.
A general idea for a working device....
4 rotors, 1 powered
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2015.02.01, 21:24:09
You're certainly right about the EZ spin and Pendulum discussions overlapping, Mark! glad you're looking at both.
Below is the Andrews 1972 circuit, which Lidmotor calls the "super simple circuit". SSC
1. SSC used in both the Dolphin Pendulum and the Top Secret spinner -- correct?
2. It looks like the coil is tapped around the midpoint -- is that correct? why would he do that?
3. How does the pendulum "kick back" energy to the battery with this SSC? I don't see how that works.
4. Is the SSC more efficient than the EZ spin circuit?
Are we sure this circuit is correct?-a single coil with a center tap that is attached to the emitter? I'm guessing this is whats called an emitter folloer circuit?.
Dear all.
Just a couple of penneth, might the trigger coil be wound in the other direction to that of the drive coil ? This would then stop the main coil from being continuously active by virtue of the magnetic field generated by it. As I see it the passing magnet just provides enough base bias to switch the transistor on and off as a single pulse. But if the polarity were changed then once the main coil was energised it would keep on oscillating.
Have I made that understandable ?? I know what I wanted to say !! ;) :)
Cheers Grum.
Haha, no I know what you mean O0
That's a great observation, because that's what i'm finding !
Another coil was wound and tried yesterday. It switched on and then the spinning top (Top Secret device) simply slowed fast and stuck to the plastic lid. Moving the top, it kept wanting to stick in the middle of the lid...it was fully switched on all the time.
If one is oppositely wound it would still induct, but not present that trouble of a permanent switch on, if i read you right ? :)
Yep. nano scale and cheaply built, that's me ;D
Most is due to salvaging pretty much anything if possible. For example, last night saw the destruction of a 4.3Gb hard drive for the magnets and a rotor for a CD to go on. That will be used to test wind coils to Grumages idea. Hopefully the motor spins and then a pendulum works and the Top Secret spinning device works with the same coil.
22400 turns :D
If my wife ever intends to read War and Peace out loud to me sometime then i'll wind that coil. She always says I don't read enough nowadays...well, besides datasheets.
Ah good, because the 550ohms will be similar to the 'dancing' types from the cheap solar toys O0
They are between ~470ohms and 520ohms ready wound. Microscopic wire that should probably be measured in nano-meters, or 'half the thickness of a Minnesotan mountain goat hair'.
Hehe not in Minnesota dear sir, the land is almost completely flat ;)
Was a long standing joke about the terrain with the inlaws, when I moved to the USA from England.
I believe the TV show 'Happy Days' had a scene where an aircraft was reported to have crashed into the Minnesota mountains, on the way from Milwaukee...there are none !
That was until 2008, now in Oklahoma :)
One thing we liked when we first made a trip to this area, was the amount of forestry. We're not too fond of concrete.
The reasons to move to here perhaps make a bizarre quick story - I saw a nice enough 1987 GMC Sierra truck for sale here for $400. I drove it back to Minnesota, 900 miles, having never driven a column shifting anything, or on the wrong side of the road with what any European would call a big vehicle. Then came all the way back down here in it to meet up with an online friend to buy arcade machines, returning with 3 arcade cabinets for $100 on the back LOL. We then decided that with seeing house prices down here, to sell the house, pay off the mortgage, come down here and buy a house for cash..so we did.
All in all, not so daft days, because after all, look what happened that year. We sold ours by beginning of 2008, the market tanked and we then bought the fixer upper in the summer :)
The weather is warming back up again. 61F today, 70F tomorrow and Sunday...so, time to get going on coils and building etc.
Am still waiting for some rotor magnets that were supposed to be here today.
A build is on test at the moment, that may use any of the driving coils talked about so far.
At the moment, it's using the auto starting solar powered circuit from a 'dancing' toy. The solar panel is delivering 1.4V at 0.5mA.
I've fitted a 2nd set of 4 coils to the first of the remote rotors and 2 others are similarly arranged, ready for their coils.
'All' I need to do is pick up 1.4V and 0.5mA to be able to start it on solar and then remove the solar.
How hard can it be ? :D
;D
Ha no problem with TMI, I do it all the time and it's a pleasure to chat around the subjects :)
I see 2 project names for your builds, Kunuku and Bonaire !
No problems on time and building, it's good to chat out some details. But, if I ever make a runner out of this concept then I suspect a replication would likely move forward in your cue 8)
There are ways right now to run such a motor all the time and i'm a fan of using whatever is normally done or available in a regular day to do something. Ambient room light for one thing, table lamps, piezo under foot etc. Lidmotor tried his real EZ Spin that was received from Lasersaber with a cap and solar panel and it ran til 5am the next day, which is very close.
Bigger panel, bigger cap and it would run 24/7 indoors. Extending that thinking would be a garden light sort of system, where the motor gave a night light and then did something useful and unique for free...such as drive a little pump for indoor watering of plants. A galvanic cell in the grow pot would deliver 0.7V at 300uA quite readily from zinc and copper electrodes.
There is absolutely a use too, for capturing the light hitting the wall from LEDs when growing plants.
Annnd there I go, crossing projects again lol
Oh I meant as in motor build project names :)
And...if one of them should become a product idea or something, the name on it would carry you forward to the dream move.
That's just probably how I think. This motor build of mine is now called the BillionDollarParadigmEngine LOL
Update - charging.
4x 500ohm coils in series, 4x North outward magnets, diode on one wire of the 2 wire output.
This idea generates up to 2.77V as tested. It needs a lot of fast spinning to get there, but can go that high. What i'm looking for is a reliable much lower output, over a time frame that can keep a cap charged, as it discharges into the drive motor.
Also, the main rotor has now been converted back to reed switch operation.
The original plan keeps changing..wait, that sounds wrong.
What I mean is, the envisaged routes keep getting blocked by unforeseen events. An example would be what's just happened now...
On the main motor itself, there are 4 driven coils just like the EZ Spin original build and then there are 4 pickup coils. The coils are now wired up, with a diode and feed back to the run capacitor. However, the rotor speeds up and slows down whenever it wants to ! Efficiency is amazing though, at the half hour run point of a usual 1hr run with the 0.1F cap, it was ahead of a comparison run without the pickup coils by 350mV !
What that means though, is that remote rotors won't stay sync'd, with the speed of the main rotor changing :-\
So, next I attempted a semi-isolation of the returning energy, by putting another diode in series with the first and then putting a 100uF cap across that join point and Ground. It runs fine, but loses some charge voltage via the diode loss.
The next idea, is to run a straight 4 coil original design (of mine) EZ Spin and put the reed switch on that.
That will now become the drive rotor and the 8 coiler then becomes a remote rotor.
Mark,
QuoteEfficiency is amazing though, at the half hour run point of a usual 1hr run with the 0.1F cap, it was ahead of a
comparison run without the pickup coils by 350mV !
What that means though, is that remote rotors won't stay sync'd, with the speed of the main rotor changing [/quote
These are remarkable observations. Your learned experience is very valuable, significant.
Hope you keep pressing forward. O0
Thanks Steve,
I had a thought that what may have been happening was the reed sticking. That particular one had been used for a couple of higher voltage starts and may be sticking. Perhaps, only when the rotor slowed down would it free up and so speed the rotor back up. I replaced it and the rotor infuriatingly wouldn't run ! A remote rotor now is the drive rotor.
Kinda messed things up I think, i'll be checking for anything amiss on the connections.
Luckily, there is some video of a slow down and speed up.
It was going to be for own notes of progress, but demonstrates well what was happening.
Interesting how it slows way down, then on its own speeds up again!
Lidmotor has his latest motor of this type. He has would two high-resistance coils (that seems to be the name of the game right now, wound with 42 AWG wire) running a motor at 1.5V (AA battery, 2500 mA-hours) and drawing just 40 MICROamps. Do the math!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0Nu4dKhUHg&feature=em-uploademail
Mark-- approx what is the gauge on the dancing flower coils?
Quote(AA battery, 2500 mA-hours) and drawing just 40 MICROamps.
I get 7.1 years of running on the AA battery... is this right?
Note: 2500 mA-hours is what I heard Lidmotor say in the latest vid (above post)... but this seems HIGH to me. That would be 2.5A for an hour, and I don't think AA-alkaline will do that. Does anyone have better info?
Yes indeed, his motor is quite amazing at that run amperage !
The DF coils are maybe even thinner gauge.
You can find out quite readily.....the bases on all of them are a plastic snap fit. Using a fingernail or flat blade small screwdriver, the base can be prised away quite readily. It falls away and the magnet + rocking mechanism sits separately.
On the base sits the coil, small solar cell and drive circuit.
Nothing connects to the assembly above, so once inspection is over, the base can snap back in again.
His coils are somewhat the equivalent of 4x DF coils spaced separately around the rotor, but all together in one bobbin.
I like it, for compactness and am going to build a rotor with DF coils piggybacked as a stack.
Looking at his bobbins, the sizing roughly equates...but will be much easier to build, except for the micro thin soldering !
First coil wound, see pic.
Resistance is 1967 ohms.
From in their packages to the finished coil took only about 30 minutes, including melting the coils off the bases.
Each is held to the next by a spot of superglue, after first using the soldering iron to gently flatten the remaining original glue.
Our new Philips camera is worse than the old Kodak for indoor videos, but does a really good job in comparison for close ups. Full zoom was used and then it focused itself, to get this picture.
Short vid of the First test of the DF 2K coil, the motor runs well.