Starting a thread as I review some of the work of a friend, Russ Gries.
Certainly we can ask several questions - but here, the question is - where is the charge stored in a dielectric capacitor?
I think the demonstration answers this clearly - something must be stored in the plastic-sheet dielectric. Correct me if I'm wrong - but only after you actually look at the data:
https://youtu.be/_cwUUxmDKA4
(I sped it up a bit, so it goes in 3 minutes.)
Thanks to Russ Gries for the courageous demonstration!
I'm posting this publicly, looking for comments to increase our understanding.
Agreed.
So, where is the charge stored in a vacuum capacitor?
Hmmm... in a vacuum cap, I think the charge must be stored on the plates - I don't see where else it could be stored.
In another Vid, Russ asks about a very large coil of wire, an inductor. A battery is suddenly connected by closing a switch and the current starts to flow. He puts a question this way - what happens when the switch is opened before the current reaches the other terminal on the battery? - or is this a realistic view (is the magnetic field established instantaneously? - I don't think so )?
He has a coil there in his lab with 76 MILES of wire!
Here is the link to the original large-cap video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQGd_jYYfqQ
I've read a few of the comments; interesting discussion.
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2018.02.12, 21:05:44
Hmmm... in a vacuum cap, I think the charge must be stored on the plates - I don't see where else it could be stored.
The "vacuum" has the property of "permittivity", hence it is the "dielectric", which we just agreed stores the "charge" based on the test in the linked video.
This is great news. Since the vacuum has the properties of permeability and permittivity, perhaps it can be "engineered" for our benefit.
Dr. Harold Puthoff has written about engineering the vacuum.
Of course the general consensus is that these properties of the vacuum are "constants, but are they?
Interesting thoughts, Grumpy.
I see that Dr Puthoff speaks of the "Polarizable Vacuum"... maybe not so far-fetched after all? hmmm....
I wanted to add this link, in which Russ talks about the gigantic coil (76 miles of wire) and about the time required for a magnetic field to become established after a current begins in such a coil -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KWajzHSylQ
Quote from: Grumpy on 2018.02.12, 22:54:20
The "vacuum" has the property of "permittivity", hence it is the "dielectric", which we just agreed stores the "charge" based on the test in the linked video.
This is great news. Since the vacuum has the properties of permeability and permittivity, perhaps it can be "engineered" for our benefit.
Dr. Harold Puthoff has written about engineering the vacuum.
Of course the general consensus is that these properties of the vacuum are "constants, but are they?
No, the dielectric stores _energy_, not charge. The vacuum is polarizable, just as are dielectrics. Energy is stored in the polarization of vacuum or dielectric materials. Polarized dielectrics _induce_ charge storage on the plates of capacitors, and charged plates of capacitors induce polarization of dielectrics. Charge is not energy, energy is not charge... although both are conserved quantities. The net quantity of charge in a dielectric is not changed by polarizing it, and is in fact neutral to first order. The net quantity of charge on the plates of a capacitor changes when the cap is charged/discharged. Charge is stored on the plates, energy is stored in the polarization of the dielectric.
Unfortunately Gries's demonstrations -- for demonstrations they are, not true experiments -- do not allow distinguishing between the two descriptions (charge on plates, charge on dielectrics). But plenty of true experiments have been done, and if you watch his demonstrations carefully you can see where the holes are that allow his garden-pathing to leak through.
Quote from: TinselKoala on 2018.02.13, 03:30:46
No, the dielectric stores _energy_, not charge. The vacuum is polarizable, just as are dielectrics. Energy is stored in the polarization of vacuum or dielectric materials. Polarized dielectrics _induce_ charge storage on the plates of capacitors, and charged plates of capacitors induce polarization of dielectrics. Charge is not energy, energy is not charge... although both are conserved quantities. The net quantity of charge in a dielectric is not changed by polarizing it, and is in fact neutral to first order. The net quantity of charge on the plates of a capacitor changes when the cap is charged/discharged. Charge is stored on the plates, energy is stored in the polarization of the dielectric.
Unfortunately Gries's demonstrations -- for demonstrations they are, not true experiments -- do not allow distinguishing between the two descriptions (charge on plates, charge on dielectrics). But plenty of true experiments have been done, and if you watch his demonstrations carefully you can see where the holes are that allow his garden-pathing to leak through.
This was my problem in the past. Differentiating between a poled dielectric and a non-poled dielectric in simple electrostatic testing.
However, there is one area I would like us to explore and that is "saturated" dielectrics. IOW, a poled dielectric that has ALL it's charge separated and frozen so to speak. I was told years ago by those at APC ceramics that this was possible but I never pursued it. At the time I had an idea for a solid state (no moving parts) electrostatic induction generator and they fabricated some special laminated ceramics under an NDA for me but the device didn't work as I intended. The problem was, balanced unseparated charges still existed in the poled dielectric which allowed normal capacitor action.
FWIW, I've attached a general schematic of such a device below.
Regards,
Pm
Edit: I meant to add that if one places a non-polarized dielectric between two plates to create a low value capacitor, then place a charge on said cap, carefully remove and flip dielectric over and place back in between plates, upon discharge one will see the same polarity as was originally used to charge the device. IOW, proof that the charge remains on the plates. If a poled dielectric is used however, then a reverse charge will be seen under the same conditions as above as is seen in Russ's experiments.
TK: "The vacuum is polarizable, just as are dielectrics. Energy is stored in the polarization of vacuum or dielectric materials. Polarized dielectrics _induce_ charge storage on the plates of capacitors, and charged plates of capacitors induce polarization of dielectrics. "
Interesting answer - certainly the energy is stored in Ries's case in the polarization of the dielectric.
Next let's consider the case of air as the dielectric in a flat-plate capacitor - where is the energy stored?
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2018.02.14, 21:31:38
TK: "The vacuum is polarizable, just as are dielectrics. Energy is stored in the polarization of vacuum or dielectric materials. Polarized dielectrics _induce_ charge storage on the plates of capacitors, and charged plates of capacitors induce polarization of dielectrics. "
Interesting answer - certainly the energy is stored in Ries's case in the polarization of the dielectric.
Next let's consider the case of air as the dielectric in a flat-plate capacitor - where is the energy stored?
Is the air really the dielectric in a flat plate capacitor? That air is full of vacuum, you know. Or rather, the vacuum between the plates has air in it.
OK - good point that the dielectric constant for air is only slightly above that for vacuum; as shown in the following table:
How is it possible that the vacuum has properties like permittivity and permeability?
Quote from: Grumpy on 2018.02.20, 16:04:46
How is it possible that the vacuum has properties like permittivity and permeability?
Ah, now you are getting to the meat of the matter.
"Vacuum" means space that has nothing material "as we know it" inside. However, space itself isn't "nothing". It has properties, as you note. This means that the possibility exists that space (or loosely "the vacuum") can be engineered, as per Hal Puthoff and Michael Ibison.
Even the hardest laboratory vacuum still has stuff in it (residual gas molecules, EM radiation, etc.) This is also true even for interstellar and intergalactic space. Some people believe that a truly "empty" vacuum, or volume of space, would spontaneously decay and form new particles/radiations from the real ZPE, which is immense.
Here's a paper posing that gravity changes the properties of space: (attached)
Some claim that pictures of UFO's captured a change in the refractive index:
http://www.treurniet.ca/trishadows/AtlantaUFO.htm (and referenced links)
Quote from: TinselKoala on 2018.02.20, 19:13:32
Ah, now you are getting to the meat of the matter.
"Vacuum" means space that has nothing material "as we know it" inside. However, space itself isn't "nothing". It has properties, as you note. This means that the possibility exists that space (or loosely "the vacuum") can be engineered, as per Hal Puthoff and Michael Ibison.
Even the hardest laboratory vacuum still has stuff in it (residual gas molecules, EM radiation, etc.) This is also true even for interstellar and intergalactic space. Some people believe that a truly "empty" vacuum, or volume of space, would spontaneously decay and form new particles/radiations from the real ZPE, which is immense.
With billions of suns(stars) burning away,there will always be photons,and EM radiation filling all of space.
Were space empty and inert then action and re-action at a distance becomes impossible. Naturally standard physics resists any attempts to question that status.
Long ago the anomaly was experimentally demonstrated with a paraconical pendulum explained here
http://www.allais.info/ (http://www.allais.info/)
http://allais.maurice.free.fr/English/index.htm (http://allais.maurice.free.fr/English/index.htm)
It perhaps comes as no surprise to those who have researched that the skills needed to physically build something which would react with events far out across free space fell into the lap of an exceptional watchmaker (hence known in free energy circles in Europe simply as 'The watchmaker') Leon Hatem who I write about else where.
Here he is many years later
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcUGCjq4qQs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcUGCjq4qQs)
all to be treated as heretics of course then and now (it seems).
This link to an piece I originally read on a website titled ' Was Einstein a shit bag' is copied from a Nexus mag
http://allais.maurice.free.fr/English/Einstein1.htm (http://allais.maurice.free.fr/English/Einstein1.htm)
well of course I reserve judgement on that. However if he did plagiarise all the great scientists mentioned here, and also intentionally corrupts the conclusions as Prof Allias adamantly tells us he did . we might even have to take the 'bag' bit away from the equasion in due course.
kindest regards Duncan
Quote from: Duncan on 2018.02.22, 07:55:41
Were space empty and inert then action and re-action at a distance becomes impossible. Naturally standard physics resists any attempts to question that status.
Long ago the anomaly was experimentally demonstrated with a paraconical pendulum explained here
http://www.allais.info/ (http://www.allais.info/)
http://allais.maurice.free.fr/English/index.htm (http://allais.maurice.free.fr/English/index.htm)
It perhaps comes as no surprise to those who have researched that the skills needed to physically build something which would react with events far out across free space fell into the lap of an exceptional watchmaker (hence known in free energy circles in Europe simply as 'The watchmaker') Leon Hatem who I write about else where.
Here he is many years later
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcUGCjq4qQs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcUGCjq4qQs)
all to be treated as heretics of course then and now (it seems).
This link to an piece I originally read on a website titled ' Was Einstein a shit bag' is copied from a Nexus mag
http://allais.maurice.free.fr/English/Einstein1.htm (http://allais.maurice.free.fr/English/Einstein1.htm)
well of course I reserve judgement on that. However if he did plagiarise all the great scientists mentioned here, and also intentionally corrupts the conclusions as Prof Allias adamantly tells us he did . we might even have to take the 'bag' bit away from the equasion in due course.
kindest regards Duncan
Well solar sails work in space !apparently!
So,there must be something out there to apply a force on those sails--solar wind they call it lol.
Mmmm 'apparently' covers a lot of trickery but back to the Prof's topic of charge . I found this bit of video on an old hard drive (I must have thought it worth preserving). It has long since been erased from its original stable on youtube and so I up loaded it again.
I still find it odd despite the fact that pretty big capacitors are in sight that sparks seem to appear out in the room and be sucked into the spark gap . trickery ? I dont know but I find it very facinating to watch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mo6gViPywRI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mo6gViPywRI)
very different sounds,very different effect. kind regards Duncan
The spark images that you see which appear not to be at the location of the actual spark gap are merely artifacts of the digital camera used to make the video. I'm sorry but there is nothing of great significance shown in that video, other than that the presenter doesn't really know what he's doing. The "endothermic/exothermic" "cold electricity" language is just gobbledegook.
Tom foolery then TK? what a shame it came with a little circuit and quite a few postings (of twaddle??)
I've just searched the web page out that the video originally came from. - so for your inspection
https://semresearch.wordpress.com/index/cold-electricity/ (https://semresearch.wordpress.com/index/cold-electricity/)
kind regards Duncan
We are still waiting for someone reliably to demonstrate "frosting" or even anomalous slight cooling of electrodes or other components from any kind of "cold electricity" apparatus.
And that "genesis project" website is a real hoot. Antigravity, currents travelling backwards in time, and many other remarkable and unproven, and even undemonstrated claims abound.
Quote from: Tinsel Koala
We are still waiting for someone reliably to demonstrate "frosting"
or even anomalous slight cooling of electrodes or other components
from any kind of "cold electricity" apparatus.
There have been instances where such "cooling" has occurred but
it cannot be reliably made manifest. It happens sporadically and it
is fleeting. The only sensible conclusion which may be arrived at
is that it originates in another dimension and it is made to show
up from time to time in our dimension by those who reside outside
it. It is para-normal.
Apart from Daniel Pomerleau who can apparently cause the strange
electricity to manifest from simple coils it seems that nobody else
has been given the ability. Although there are some magicians in
Asia who are able to make electricity manifest from their bodies.
Again, para-normal phenomena.
Spooks.
No, that is not the only "sensible conclusion".
Quote from: Tinsel Koala
No, that is not the only "sensible conclusion".
Continue please...
Search "electrostatic cooling"
There is still controversy whether it is due to ionic wind vortices or electron stripping or a combination of the two. The attached paper favors the ionic wind model but there are other papers that claim the electron stripping model.
If you cup your hand near a needle emitter of high positive potential the cooling effect is rapid and pronounced. Be sure to use a highly current limited HV source (with a high megohm resistor) or low current electrostatic source.
Regards
nice find ION - at least it does happen and is repeatable. if or why it may be happening here I leave open to conjecture . I offer this for your inspection seems a lot of military involvement
http://rexresearch.com/blomgren/blomgren.htm (http://rexresearch.com/blomgren/blomgren.htm)
kindest regards Duncan
Quote from: ION
Search "electrostatic cooling"
Very true. Brings back memories of High School Physics
in 1958/59 when we did experiments with HV provided
by induction Coil and our Wimshurst Machine.
We weren't studying cooling per se, but the manifestation
of the ion wind from sharply pointed electrodes.
I wonder if today's schools still do such things?
Quote from: ION on 2018.03.08, 02:32:35
Search "electrostatic cooling"
There is still controversy whether it is due to ionic wind vortices or electron stripping or a combination of the two. The attached paper favors the ionic wind model but there are other papers that claim the electron stripping model.
If you cup your hand near a needle emitter of high positive potential the cooling effect is rapid and pronounced. Be sure to use a highly current limited HV source (with a high megohm resistor) or low current electrostatic source.
Regards
That's right... or you'll quickly find out just how not "cold" this electricity really is.
I'm surprised that nobody has yet mentioned Peltier cooling modules in this context. It's possible that some experimenters accidentally discovered the Peltier effect by connecting stuff of different metallic compositions to a source of current.
But let me ask this: If you sealed a Peltier cooling module into a well-insulated container, like a nice Styrofoam ice chest, with just the wires sticking out to connect to a power source, and turned it on... would it get cooler inside the chest?
^-^
Quote from: TinselKoala on 2018.03.09, 06:38:12
I'm surprised that nobody has yet mentioned Peltier cooling modules in this context. It's possible that some experimenters accidentally discovered the Peltier effect by connecting stuff of different metallic compositions to a source of current.
But let me ask this: If you sealed a Peltier cooling module into a well-insulated container, like a nice Styrofoam ice chest, with just the wires sticking out to connect to a power source, and turned it on... would it get cooler inside the chest?
^-^
The temperature would rise.
Quote from: Tinsel Koala
... would it get cooler inside the chest?
For a certain amount of time and in certain
locations there would be a cooling effect.
Long term would be as Tin Man has
spoken.
I once had the top of a Lead acid battery ice up around the terminals and across the top . I have tried a few times now to re-create the event - I never have succeeded. so pretty pointless mentioning it really because I could just be telling you a pork pie! - very bloody frustrating is what it is! I guess the point is nothings an event until several (or rather who ever may want to), can reproduce it! It had a profound effect on me but is pretty meaningless to everyone else. still as you reading this focus straight away on the 'cold' icing effect so the hairs on the back of my neck stand up when I read of the effect . hence I posted.
Quote from: TinselKoala on 2018.02.13, 03:30:46
No, the dielectric stores _energy_, not charge. The vacuum is polarizable, just as are dielectrics. Energy is stored in the polarization of vacuum or dielectric materials. Polarized dielectrics _induce_ charge storage on the plates of capacitors, and charged plates of capacitors induce polarization of dielectrics. Charge is not energy, energy is not charge... although both are conserved quantities. The net quantity of charge in a dielectric is not changed by polarizing it, and is in fact neutral to first order. The net quantity of charge on the plates of a capacitor changes when the cap is charged/discharged. Charge is stored on the plates, energy is stored in the polarization of the dielectric.
Unfortunately Gries's demonstrations -- for demonstrations they are, not true experiments -- do not allow distinguishing between the two descriptions (charge on plates, charge on dielectrics). But plenty of true experiments have been done, and if you watch his demonstrations carefully you can see where the holes are that allow his garden-pathing to leak through.
I would have to disagree with the highlighted TK,as the dielectric material already holds charge. In fact,all material-anything made/containing atoms is already charged--even the air we breath.
In the case of a capacitor,only when subjected to an electric field,will the charges align,so as the negative charge in the dielectric is attracted to the positive charges on the cap plate,and visa versa for the positive charges in the dielectric being attracted to the negative charges of the other cap plate.
I hunted around youtube to try and find the best example of what i am trying to say,and the simple one below is pretty close.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkntp3_cZl4&t=187s
Brad
Quote from: muDped on 2018.03.07, 00:47:55
There have been instances where such "cooling" has occurred but
it cannot be reliably made manifest. It happens sporadically and it
is fleeting. The only sensible conclusion which may be arrived at
is that it originates in another dimension and it is made to show
up from time to time in our dimension by those who reside outside
it. It is para-normal.
Apart from Daniel Pomerleau who can apparently cause the strange
electricity to manifest from simple coils it seems that nobody else
has been given the ability. Although there are some magicians in
Asia who are able to make electricity manifest from their bodies.
Again, para-normal phenomena.
Spooks.
spooks like this ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aos0hnwiHt8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aos0hnwiHt8)
until we understand this then there are clearly big gaps in our understanding . unless its trickery of course but its hard to see how some of this can be done with trickery - kind regards Duncan
Quote from: Duncan
spooks like this ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aos0hnwiHt8
Aye, he's one of those who seem to have the
ability to manifest strange stuff.
Unfortunately, the technical experts who were
enabled to make measurements didn't have
the right sort of test equipment to attempt to
identify the phenomena.
What are your thoughts?
Thoughts is different to proof but since you ask - I suspect a whole raft of these things that 'happen' are automatically made to seem abandoned with an official line of - "we have no idea how that really works". -- For over a hundred years and particularly since WW2 thats been the line. If I have any suspicions to contribute, one is I suspect these unknowns will eventually connect together to make a coherent whole.
oh 'nobody' really knows how evaporation ,gravity,electricity ,electrostatic heating , yes and every free energy machine really works (like Flynn's parallel paths for instance) is simply ridiculous to my thinking.
only the people the powers that be wish, are the ones who are officially 'in the know'
I suspect thats the case. after all who given the resources is going to leave such pivotal subjects alone ? - no one one on this forum I'll bet !
A few things have had to happen to create this constipation in human advancement . Trickery to divert huge public resources to private research - That seems to have been done ! control of education and what may or may not be printed or taught world wide - That seems to have been accomplished long ago by the Rockefeller /Carnegie foundations . Individual advancement with in the exsisting system seems well controlled by the patent systems - (over 50,000 patents are held in arrest in the US alone) , if anything even more in the UK and the commonwealth countries .
The very few folks working outside the patent system are privileged to 'special treatment' well known and described else where.
You say muDped you were taught and shown this effect in 1958 - I certainly wasn't ten years later . perhaps you were at a military school muDped ? my guess would be that would make a big difference.
At least it does happen ! - I once saw icing around battery posts I could never re-create the effect . after a while I started to doubt it had actually happened - at least now I know its a possibility Kindest regards Duncan
Quote from: ION on 2018.03.08, 02:32:35
Search "electrostatic cooling"
There is still controversy whether it is due to ionic wind vortices or electron stripping or a combination of the two. The attached paper favors the ionic wind model but there are other papers that claim the electron stripping model.
If you cup your hand near a needle emitter of high positive potential the cooling effect is rapid and pronounced. Be sure to use a highly current limited HV source (with a high megohm resistor) or low current electrostatic source.
Regards
ION
I (and others)have seen a strange effect many times. I wouldnt call it a cooling effect,but more of an odd effect.
We assume that in a DC device,the current flowing into the device on the positive leg(conventional current flow),should be the same value of the current flowing out of the negative leg.
We would then assume that the positive and negative leads would be of the same temperature.
On many occasions i have seen the negative lead stay cold,while the positive lead gets hot-and others have seen this as well.
Here is an example from Luc,while doing some research on the RT.
From 2:50,listen what Luc says.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pib2fpHRsaM
Brad
Quote from: TinMan on 2018.03.23, 17:21:21
ION
I (and others)have seen a strange effect many times. I wouldnt call it a cooling effect,but more of an odd effect.
We assume that in a DC device,the current flowing into the device on the positive leg(conventional current flow),should be the same value of the current flowing out of the negative leg.
We would then assume that the positive and negative leads would be of the same temperature.
On many occasions i have seen the negative lead stay cold,while the positive lead gets hot-and others have seen this as well.
Here is an example from Luc,while doing some research on the RT.
From 2:50,listen what Luc says.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pib2fpHRsaM
Brad
The underlined part is the assumption, not necessarily true.
When dissimilar metals are involved and a current is made to flow through them, a difference of temperature will occur:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_effect
Could this be the cause? It is what happens with a Peltier junction even in it's most basic form.
Quote from: ION on 2018.03.23, 21:33:14
The underlined part is the assumption, not necessarily true.
When dissimilar metals are involved and a current is made to flow through them, a difference of temperature will occur:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_effect
Could this be the cause? It is what happens with a Peltier junction even in it's most basic form.
In Luc's case,he was referring to the brushes,which i believe are exactly the same.
Quote from: TinMan on 2018.03.24, 01:04:17
In Luc's case,he was referring to the brushes,which i believe are exactly the same.
The brushes are part of a thermocouple circuit composed of the brass holder and the copper commutator.
The complete Thermocouple circuit is copper wire to brass brush holder to carbon brush to copper commutator and back out in reverse order. There are several dissimilar junctions on each side of that circuit.
QuotePeltier effect, the cooling of one junction and the heating of the other when electric current is maintained in a circuit of material consisting of two dissimilar conductors; the effect is even stronger in circuits containing dissimilar semiconductors. In a circuit consisting of a battery joined by two pieces of copper wire to a length of bismuth wire, a temperature rise occurs at the junction where the current passes from copper to bismuth, and a temperature drop occurs at the junction where the current passes from bismuth to copper. This effect was discovered in 1834 by the French physicist Jean-Charles-Athanase Peltier.