Where is the charge stored? and other investigations by Russ Gries

[Duncan]

nice find ION - at least it does happen and is repeatable. if or why it may be happening here I leave open to conjecture . I offer this for your inspection seems a lot of military involvement
http://rexresearch.com/blomgren/blomgren.htm
kindest regards Duncan

[muDped]

Search "electrostatic cooling"

Very true.  Brings back memories of High School Physics
in 1958/59 when we did experiments with HV provided
by induction Coil and our Wimshurst Machine.

We weren't studying cooling per se, but the manifestation
of the ion wind from sharply pointed electrodes.

I wonder if today's schools still do such things?

[TinselKoala]

Search "electrostatic cooling"

There is still controversy whether it is due to ionic wind vortices or electron stripping or a combination of the two. The attached paper favors the ionic wind model but there are other papers that claim the electron stripping model.

If you cup your hand near a needle emitter of high positive potential the cooling effect is rapid and pronounced. Be sure to use a highly current limited HV source (with a high megohm resistor) or low current electrostatic source.

Regards

That's right... or you'll quickly find out just how not "cold" this electricity really is.

[TinselKoala]

I'm surprised that nobody has yet mentioned Peltier cooling modules in this context.  It's possible that some experimenters accidentally discovered the Peltier effect by connecting stuff of different metallic compositions to a source of current.

But let me ask this: If you sealed a Peltier cooling module into a well-insulated container, like a nice Styrofoam ice chest, with just the wires sticking out to connect to a power source, and turned it on... would it get cooler inside the chest?

[TinMan]

I'm surprised that nobody has yet mentioned Peltier cooling modules in this context.  It's possible that some experimenters accidentally discovered the Peltier effect by connecting stuff of different metallic compositions to a source of current.

But let me ask this: If you sealed a Peltier cooling module into a well-insulated container, like a nice Styrofoam ice chest, with just the wires sticking out to connect to a power source, and turned it on... would it get cooler inside the chest?

The temperature would rise.

[muDped]

... would it get cooler inside the chest?

For a certain amount of time and in certain
locations there would be a cooling effect.

Long term would be as Tin Man has
spoken.

[Duncan]

I once had the top of a Lead acid battery ice up around the terminals and across the top . I have tried a few times now to re-create the event - I never have succeeded. so pretty pointless mentioning it really because  I could just be telling you a pork pie! - very bloody frustrating is what it is! I guess the point is nothings an event until several (or rather who ever may want to), can reproduce it! It had a profound effect on me but is pretty meaningless to everyone else. still as you reading this focus straight away on the 'cold' icing  effect so the hairs on the back of my neck stand up when I read of the effect . hence I posted.

[TinMan]

No, the dielectric stores _energy_, not charge. The vacuum is polarizable, just as are dielectrics. Energy is stored in the polarization of vacuum or dielectric materials. Polarized dielectrics _induce_ charge storage on the plates of capacitors, and charged plates of capacitors induce polarization of dielectrics. Charge is not energy, energy is not charge... although both are conserved quantities. The net quantity of charge in a dielectric is not changed by polarizing it, and is in fact neutral to first order. The net quantity of charge on the plates of a capacitor changes when the cap is charged/discharged. Charge is stored on the plates, energy is stored in the polarization of the dielectric.

Unfortunately Gries's demonstrations -- for demonstrations they are, not true experiments -- do not allow distinguishing between the two descriptions (charge on plates, charge on dielectrics). But plenty of true experiments have been done, and if you watch his demonstrations carefully you can see where the holes are that allow his garden-pathing to leak through.

I would have to disagree with the highlighted TK,as the dielectric material already holds charge. In fact,all material-anything made/containing atoms is already charged--even the air we breath.

In the case of a capacitor,only when subjected to an electric field,will the charges align,so as the negative charge in the dielectric is attracted to the positive charges on the cap plate,and visa versa for the positive charges in the dielectric being attracted to the negative charges of the other cap plate.

I hunted around youtube to try and find the best example of what i am trying to say,and the simple one below is pretty close.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkntp3_cZl4&t=187s


Brad

[Duncan]

There have been instances where such "cooling" has occurred but
it cannot be reliably made manifest.  It happens sporadically and it
is fleeting.  The only sensible conclusion which may be arrived at
is that it originates in another dimension and it is made to show
up from time to time in our dimension by those who reside outside
it.  It is para-normal.

Apart from Daniel Pomerleau who can apparently cause the strange
electricity to manifest from simple coils it seems that nobody else
has been given the ability.  Although there are some magicians in
Asia who are able to make electricity manifest from their bodies.
Again, para-normal phenomena.

Spooks.

spooks like this ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aos0hnwiHt8
until we understand this then there are clearly big gaps in our understanding . unless its trickery of course but its hard to see how some of this can be done with trickery - kind regards Duncan

[muDped]

spooks like this ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aos0hnwiHt8

Aye, he's one of those who seem to have the
ability to manifest strange stuff.

Unfortunately, the technical experts who were
enabled to make measurements didn't have
the right sort of test equipment to attempt to
identify the phenomena.

What are your thoughts?

[Duncan]

Thoughts is different to proof but since you ask - I suspect a whole raft of these things that 'happen' are automatically made to seem abandoned with an official line of - "we have no idea how that really works". -- For over a hundred years and particularly since WW2 thats been the line. If I have any suspicions to contribute, one is I suspect these unknowns will eventually connect together to make a coherent whole.
oh 'nobody' really knows how evaporation ,gravity,electricity ,electrostatic heating , yes and every free energy machine really works (like Flynn's parallel paths for instance)  is simply ridiculous to my thinking.
only the people the powers that be  wish, are the ones who are officially 'in the know'
I suspect thats the case. after all who given the resources is going to leave such pivotal subjects alone ? - no one one on this forum I'll bet !
A few things have had to happen to create this constipation in human advancement . Trickery to divert huge public resources to private research - That seems to have been done ! control of education and what may or may not be printed or taught world wide - That seems to have been accomplished long ago by the Rockefeller /Carnegie foundations .  Individual advancement with in  the exsisting system seems well controlled by the patent systems - (over 50,000 patents are held in arrest in the US alone) , if anything even more in the UK and the commonwealth countries .
The very few folks working outside the patent system are privileged to 'special treatment' well known and described else where.
You say muDped you were taught and shown this effect in 1958 -  I certainly wasn't ten years later . perhaps you were at a military school  muDped ? my guess would be that would make a big difference.
At least it does happen ! - I once saw icing around battery posts I could never re-create the effect . after a while I started to doubt it had actually happened - at least now I know its a possibility  Kindest regards Duncan     

[TinMan]

Search "electrostatic cooling"

There is still controversy whether it is due to ionic wind vortices or electron stripping or a combination of the two. The attached paper favors the ionic wind model but there are other papers that claim the electron stripping model.

If you cup your hand near a needle emitter of high positive potential the cooling effect is rapid and pronounced. Be sure to use a highly current limited HV source (with a high megohm resistor) or low current electrostatic source.

Regards

ION

I (and others)have seen a strange effect many times. I wouldnt call it a cooling effect,but more of an odd effect.

We assume that in a DC device,the current flowing into the device on the positive leg(conventional current flow),should be the same value of the current flowing out of the negative leg.
We would then assume that the positive and negative leads would be of the same temperature.

On many occasions i have seen the negative lead stay cold,while the positive lead gets hot-and others have seen this as well.

Here is an example from Luc,while doing some research on the RT.
From 2:50,listen what Luc says.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pib2fpHRsaM


Brad

[ion]

ION

I (and others)have seen a strange effect many times. I wouldnt call it a cooling effect,but more of an odd effect.

We assume that in a DC device,the current flowing into the device on the positive leg(conventional current flow),should be the same value of the current flowing out of the negative leg.
We would then assume that the positive and negative leads would be of the same temperature.

On many occasions i have seen the negative lead stay cold,while the positive lead gets hot-and others have seen this as well.

Here is an example from Luc,while doing some research on the RT.
From 2:50,listen what Luc says.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pib2fpHRsaM


Brad

The underlined part is the assumption, not necessarily true.

When dissimilar metals are involved and a current is made to flow through them, a difference of temperature will occur:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_effect

Could this be the cause? It is what happens with a Peltier junction even in it's most basic form.

[TinMan]

The underlined part is the assumption, not necessarily true.

When dissimilar metals are involved and a current is made to flow through them, a difference of temperature will occur:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_effect

Could this be the cause? It is what happens with a Peltier junction even in it's most basic form.

In Luc's case,he was referring to the brushes,which i believe are exactly the same.

[ion]

In Luc's case,he was referring to the brushes,which i believe are exactly the same.

The brushes are part of a thermocouple circuit composed of the brass holder and the copper commutator.

The complete Thermocouple circuit is copper wire to brass brush holder to carbon brush to copper commutator and back out in reverse order. There are several dissimilar junctions on each side of that circuit.

Peltier effect, the cooling of one junction and the heating of the other when electric current is maintained in a circuit of material consisting of two dissimilar conductors; the effect is even stronger in circuits containing dissimilar semiconductors. In a circuit consisting of a battery joined by two pieces of copper wire to a length of bismuth wire, a temperature rise occurs at the junction where the current passes from copper to bismuth, and a temperature drop occurs at the junction where the current passes from bismuth to copper. This effect was discovered in 1834 by the French physicist Jean-Charles-Athanase Peltier.