sourcing period correct iron wire for a few labs gearing up for replication
Grum mentioned "Drawn Pig iron wire "
here one Vendors specs approx 94% pure iron below
https://www.stenametalinc.com/pig-iron/pig-iron/
snip
Basic Pig Iron
Carbon (C): 3.5 - 4.5 %
Silicon (Si): 1.50% max.
Manganese (Mn): 1.00% max.
Phosphorus (P): 0.15% max.
Sulphur (S): 0.05% max.
Ingot weight: 10 kgs. max.
Foundry Pig Iron
Carbon (C): 3.5 - 4.5 %
Silicon (Si): 1.50 - 3.0%
Manganese (Mn): 0.50 - 0.90%
Phosphorus (P): 0.15% max.
Sulphur (S): 0.05% max.
Ingot weight: 8 kgs. max.
Nodular Pig Iron
Carbon (C): 3.5 - 4.5 %
Silicon (Si): 0.50% max.
Manganese (Mn): 0.05% max.
Phosphorus (P): 0.05% max.
Sulphur (S): 0.015% max.
Ingot weight: 8 kgs. max.
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sample vendor https://www.wireproducts.us/category/black-annealed-wire/5
ALL SUGGESTIONS WELCOME AND ENCOURAGED
Hi Chet.
The " purer " the Iron, the better, those specifications look quite good.
It's just dawned on me that NMR might play a part in the process like the Meyer Mace device ??
Cheers Graham.
Again the link to a good read on iron wire of yesterday:
http://fortepianos.com/iron%20wire.pdf
AISI 1008 and 1026 carbon steel seem most likely available
Steels containing mostly carbon as the alloying element are called carbon steels. They contain about 1.2% manganese and 0.4% silicon. Nickel, aluminium, chromium, copper and molybdenum are also present in small quantities in the carbon steels.
AISI 1008 carbon steel has excellent weldability, which includes projection, butt, spot and fusion, and brazeability. The following datasheet will provide more details about AISI 1008 carbon steel.
Chemical Composition
The following table shows the chemical composition of AISI 1008 carbon steel.
Element Content (%)
Iron, Fe 99.31-99.7 %
Manganese, Mn 0.30-0.50 %
Carbon, C 0.10 %
Sulfur, S 0.050 %
Phosphorous, P 0.040 %
Physical Properties
The physical properties of AISI 1008 carbon steel are outlined in the following table.
Properties Metric Imperial
Density (composition 0.06% C, 0.38% Mn, 0.01% Si, annealed at 925°C) 7.872 g/cm3 0.2844 lb/in³
Mechanical Properties
The mechanical properties of cold drawn AISI 1008 carbon steel are tabulated below.
Properties Metric Imperial
Tensile strength 340 MPa 49300 psi
Yield strength (depending on temper) 285 MPa 41300 psi
Elastic modulus 190-210 Gpa 27557-30458 ksi
Bulk modulus (typical for steel) 200 GPa 29000 ksi
Shear modulus (typical for steel) 80.0 GPa 11600 ksi
Poisson's ratio 0.27-0.30 0.27-0.30
Elongation at break (in 50 mm) 20% 20%
Reduction of area 45% 45%
Hardness, Brinell 95 95
Hardness, Knoop (converted from Brinell hardness) 113 113
Hardness, Rockwell B (converted from Brinell hardness) 55 55
Hardness, Vickers (converted from Brinell hardness) 98 98
Machinability (based on AISI 1212 steel as 100 machinability) The machinability of group I bar, rod, and wire products can be improved by cold drawing) 55 55
Thermal Properties
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waiting for actual availability as well as vendors Mil spec sheet
Mil specs for one vendor
could not get image from PDF ,crumby pic for now ,
Thoughts on these Chet? http://www.goodfellow.com/E/Iron-Rod.html
Jim
Thanks ,seems you landed the holy Grail......and I learned something new ?? [almost.... hopefully more after I speak with them on Monday]
if iron holds some secrets towards excess energy harvesting , this info seems crucial towards understanding micro environments which can happen in these experiments .
your link again
http://www.goodfellow.com/E/Iron-Rod.html
snip
Depending upon the temperature, pure iron can exist in three forms, namely alpha-, gamma- and delta-iron; alpha iron is a polymorphic form of iron which is stable below 906C; it has a body centred cubic lattice (bcc) and is magnetic up to 768C. Gamma iron is a polymorphic form of iron which is stable between 906C and 1403C; it has a face centred cubic lattice (fcc) and is nonmagnetic (n.b. its range of stability is reduced by the presence of carbon, manganese and nickel and it is the basis of the austenite solid solutions). Delta iron is the polymorphic form of iron which is stable between 1403C and the melting point; it has the same lattice structure as alpha iron.
end snip
==============================================================
here is ions historical link for a reference to the time frame of the patent and where wire technology was in Cook's time [patent date 1871
as ion said " a good read" [fascinating techniques ,time period information and evolution ,
http://fortepianos.com/iron%20wire.pdf
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on a side note makes me wonder about a whole new group of experiments under heated conditions ,and whether the anomalies seen
in micro environments [Like Mikes damaged stainless,or Celani and other ] can be better understood and utilized for true excess energy harvesting .
I've tweeted Goodfellow about pricing as the price link on their page is a 404.
Which thread is this thread related to ?
Daniel McFarland Cook thread here [Topic board Daniel McFarland Cook is on left side of main page [i just changed thread tittle for clarity]
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=1616.msg70418;topicseen#msg70418
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Note below has nothing to do with this thread but is a mind bender topic which intrigues a few here [started with a water wheel idea that holds promise but not water :o [leaks]]
https://overunity.com/18069/magnetic-flux-control-idea/msg527956/#new
Emailed Goodfellows will have pricing/availability soon.
Jim
spoke with Curtis at PA USA location ,Did mention you were also sourcing pricing info from Australia [mentioned contact info]
inventory number FE 005105 was chosen for a baseline grasp of costs [pricing strictly monitored
pricing as follows
FE005105 Iron Wire,
Diameter:0.025mm, High Purity:99.99+%, Temper:As drawn
340.00 US per meter available lengths to 20 meters
also asked for 18 gauge so as to check diameter and pricing relationship ??
part numbers
FE005172 Iron Wire,
Diameter:1.0mm, Purity:99.5%, Temper:Annealed
FE005180 Iron Wire,
Diameter:1.0mm, High Purity:99.99+%, Temper:As drawn
awaiting price quote for above
mentioned we might need 1000 total meters of .025MM to fill a 75 MM x 1.25 meter sleeve
Grum
fire up the furnace.................
:o :D :D :D ;D
Post script.
As an experiment, could solid bar be used in place of multiple rods?
There's a firm in the UK that sells pure Iron to the Blacksmith trade. Max diameter of 30 mm.
Quote from: Chet K on 2018.12.10, 15:24:58
Jim
spoke with Curtis at PA USA location ,Did mention you were also sourcing pricing info from Australia [mentioned contact info]
inventory number FE 005105 was chosen for a baseline grasp of costs [pricing strictly monitored
pricing as follows
FE005105 Iron Wire,
Diameter:0.025mm, High Purity:99.99+%, Temper:As drawn
340.00 US per meter available lengths to 20 meters
also asked for 18 gauge so as to check diameter and pricing relationship ??
part numbers
FE005172 Iron Wire,
Diameter:1.0mm, Purity:99.5%, Temper:Annealed
FE005180 Iron Wire,
Diameter:1.0mm, High Purity:99.99+%, Temper:As drawn
awaiting price quote for above
mentioned we might need 1000 total meters of .025MM to fill a 75 MM x 1.25 meter sleeve
Grum
fire up the furnace.................
Chet,
Did you really mean 0.025mm = .000984" ? No wonder it is so expensive!
Pm
Quote from: Grumage on 2018.12.10, 16:39:22
:o :D :D :D ;D
Post script.
As an experiment, could solid bar be used in place of multiple rods?
There's a firm in the UK that sells pure Iron to the Blacksmith trade. Max diameter of 30 mm.
Dear Grum
Cook points out that the finer the wire for the core, the better, probably to reduce eddy currents which were also probably not well understood at that time. Discovered probably by empirical observation (Eureka! the unit made from fine iron wire does not get as hot in operation as the one made with a iron bar and also puts out more useful energy!)
I'm betting cook used ordinary iron annealed baling wire or soft iron music wire commonly available at that time so no high purity required, but would be an upgrade.
I'm guessing around 0.062 dia for the rods would suffice, 2 to 3" packed dia. by 3 to 4 ' lengths.
Also note that thermocouple grade iron wire type "JP" is 99.9+ purity, (see attached chart) and is also quite inexpensive @ $26 per kilo or less.
https://ualloy.en.made-in-china.com/product/oBlxrDRjnCWi/China-Pure-Iron-Thermocouple-Bare-Wire.html
Even from China this wire must meet all certs or temperature measurement using it would be in large error.
I'm sure it can also be had from US suppliers at low cost, as it is not considered valuable and rarely worth salvaging for scrap.
If you buy the thermocouple pair "J" wire, you get one Iron "JP" and one Constantan "JN", the Constantan being useful for Celani experiments.....serendipity!
We need not look to anything exotic here considering the period of it's availability.
"JP" Iron is "positive" thermoelement
"JP" Constantan is "negative" thermoelement
Together they form a type "J" thermocouple for temperature measurement.
Regards
Dear Ion.
I have to agree with your sentence, regarding the " exotic " statement.
We used to have a firm locally that re processed " wire " for resale, I'll see what they have to offer.
Cheers Graham.
Quote from: Grumage on 2018.12.10, 19:24:53
Dear Ion.
I have to agree with your sentence, regarding the " exotic " statement.
We used to have a firm locally that re processed " wire " for resale, I'll see what they have to offer.
Cheers Graham.
I would use cheap and readily available soft iron baling wire .032 or .062 as a start. It is not too difficult to draw this down to finer diameters if needed in the future.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p3984.m570.l1313.TR1.TRC0.A0.H0.Xbaling+wire.TRS0&_nkw=baling+wire&_sacat=0
https://www.grainger.com/category/baling-wire-and-lockwire/strapping-and-strapping-equipment/packaging-and-shipping/material-handling/ecatalog/N-131h
If the pig iron is quoted with 3% carbon and steel is quoted (elsewhere) with around the same, then this pig iron is probably not iron at all.
If the SG specifies R45 or R60 gas welding rods, these might be worth trying.
Hi Paul.
The term " pig Iron " goes way back to the fist " Iron masters " the Darby's John Wilkinson etc. So named because the " floor " resembled piglets suckling from mother Pig.
This was the first " Iron " from the smelting of ore and charcoal and later coal as the process cleared the entire area of trees!
This Iron was then re melted to further alter its composition using the " art " of the time.
If you're living in the UK I would greatly urge a visit to Coalbrookdale in the Midlands, a working " industrial heritage " museum and close to the worlds first true " Iron bridge "
Cheers Graham.
Yes, I'm in Britain. The attached building belongs to that era. It is remarkable.
Presumably, you need iron and not steel because iron takes and sheds magnetism quickly and steel doesn't. the trouble is that all too many vendors don't know the difference, particularly those handling wrought iron who are often selling steel as iron. (In a few years there will be a lot of complaints since, as we know, iron doesn't rust whereas steel does). I don't know where to get true iron fine wire.
heard back from Vendor
FE005172 Iron Wire,
Diameter:1.0mm, Purity:99.5%, Temper:Annealed
approx 1 Dollar US per meter
link again...http://www.goodfellow.com/E/Iron-Wire.html
Quote from: Chet K on 2018.12.12, 15:36:19
heard back from Vendor
FE005172 Iron Wire,
Diameter:1.0mm, Purity:99.5%, Temper:Annealed
approx 1 Dollar US per meter
link again...http://www.goodfellow.com/E/Iron-Wire.html
try:
https://www.galwire.com/galvanizedmetalwire/cutwire.html
soft annealed iron wire bulk cut and bundles...scroll down page
ION
seems good potential except its soo far away....
I going to follow up on your gas spectrometer suggestion for analysis of a few cheap domestic wire sources here [IE.. floral twist wire .
see if Steve can use the University Lab for this testing ?.
had a few crazy days here ,but seems I can make some more calls tomorrow to other Vendors for Mil specs and pricing .
Much early work with Fe used "Swedish Iron" or "Norway Iron" because iron ore from that area had particularly good magnetic characteristics. You will find some data on these and many other irons in "International Critical Tables of Numeric Data" first published in 1929 by The National Research Council of the USA. A Google search will find archive copies in pdf format, I have one on my computer, file size 23MB. I can post it here if necessary. Below are two extracts.
Smudge
Dear Smudge
Thanks for the reference.
Here is a direct link to download the\1930 edition.
https://www.nap.edu/catalog/20230/international-critical-tables-of-numerical-data-physics-chemistry-and-technology
edit: sorry this is just the index
Did Just get a reply from Jimboots link
http://www.goodfellow.com/E/Iron-Wire.html
Thank you for your inquiry referenced as above. We have pleasure in
offering subject to our standard conditions of sale as follows:
1. FE005172 Iron Wire Fe 99.5%
Temper : Annealed
Diameter : 1.0mm
Quantity : 1000 m Price : $ 0.762 / m
Lead time - 2 weeks
2. FE005180 Iron Wire
Fe
Temper : As drawn
Diameter : 1.0mm
High Purity : 99.99+%
Quantity : 1000 m Price : $ 7.88 / m
Lead time - 6 weeks due to holidays
Terms of shipment Shipping costs included in our prices
Terms of payment: To be agreed at the time you place an order.
We hope this quotation is of interest and look forward to hearing from you.
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Well
after discussing this project today ...I forgot I had wire which was donated a few years back
about 600 ft roll ? maybe more of 0.250 bald rod, the softest iron wire I ever had my hands on ,
had forgotten I pushed it up into the hill [just a bit] with the pay loader a few years back during a cleanup .
weighs a few hundred pounds .
Digging it out by hand now so as to not mess it up with the machine.
I believe we have enuff to go forward with some tests.
O0
"There's gold in them thar hills", well iron anyway. Hopefully not too rusty, but hey, maybe some rust helps! O0
(my useless post of the day)