Intriguing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIbBaTf9m_M
But - he has not actually measured the output power yet...
Agreed, quite intriguing. I wish he'd done a couple of additional loads:
(1) A load which draws considerably more current.
(2) A load where the output of the coil is first rectified to full-wave
pulsating DC.
Since in the video it appears his LED load is directly connected across the coil
then the Output Current would be pulsating half-cycle DC. Is that an essential
characteristic of the Loading in order to reduce motor current draw?
It's a very simply device where other means of vibrating the coil come to
mind. Food for thought...
One wonders of course, whether fixing the coil and vibrating the magnet would
produce the same effect? More food for thought...
Good points, MuDped.
Note this comment from Germany:
Quotebaudirenergie5 hours ago
Great Video Ray! Thanks a lot. I am working with the same Effect but have a different setup. If the setup is perfect, your source energy can be become zero or below (go into negative). Then your source (battery) voltage can stay the same or can charge in the same time and never deminish. Impedance matching on the output side can give you also a gain in this effect and can reduces your input current more and more and speed up your motor in the same time. Thanks for your video and best regards from germany.
Notice how "simple" this device is:
If you look carefully at the video you will see why.
Watch the drive bar (wood) as he moves the magnet, what do you see?? ah the standing wave or not, to be or not to be, that is the question, going into sink so it is not reflecting.
Regards
Mike 8)
Quote from: Centraflow on 2020.04.13, 11:24:01
If you look carefully at the video you will see why.
Watch the drive bar (wood) as he moves the magnet, what do you see?? ah the standing wave or not, to be or not to be, that is the question, going into sink so it is not refecting.
Regards
Mike 8)
like a kiddies swing being pushed at the wrong time - then corrected is that a pretty good picture to draw Mike? or better still like an SWR on an antenna feeder but of course its physical and the di-pole impedance change is the magnet being moved ? - is that QED and can be put to bed?
Quote from: Duncan on 2020.04.13, 12:35:11
like a kiddies swing being pushed at the wrong time - then corrected is that a pretty good picture to draw Mike? or better still like an SWR on an antenna feeder but of course its physical and the di-pole impedance change is the magnet being moved ? - is that QED and can be put to bed?
Yes Duncan, it is the standing wave and it's ratio.
A great demonstration of actually seeing it, if the wooded bar was thicker it probably would not be seen, but it would still be there.
Regards
Mike 8)
Thanks Mike - a beacon in the darkness - as usual, kind regards Duncan
This is very interesting
Partsman and I have shown the induction of a sideways coil that produces more of a say positive output than a negative. But here he has the magnet and the coil sideways. There may be more to this than the way he shows.
The only suspecting thing that I can conceive is the possibility of the assy going into resonance and the mechanical(no magnet) load 'will' draw less from the motor. Like in some of my pulse motor vids, I had found out that reed switches hit resonance in freq above their recommended max operating freq. once the reed got to the max, the motor would settle at that speed. But if the rotor was assisted to a higher rpm, and the reed goes resonant, the motor would speed up because it was making more consistent contact for that rpm/freq. But what Im hoping for is the idea he expressed of instead of lenz effect, it assists instead of dragging down the mechanical drive. :o
Here the movement is restricted to only so far left and right, so im wondering if that is necessary or if it were a rotor that could take advantage of this all the way through the magnet passing. If it doesnt, then a simple trick for that would be to load the coil only for a short period during the pass within the range that the effect happens. ;) O0 ^-^
Mags
providing I have interpreted Mike correctly Magluvin (and he can lose me quite easily) – let me invite you to imagine a swing with a child sat on it (if you wish) being effected at each end of the swing – (for the moment imagine an adult pushing at each apex) timing is obviously essential . In practice here there is one input (the motor and cam contraption)what is at the other end of the swing you know is a magnet but for now consider it to be a braking effect . (another adult pushing at the wrong time) or if attraction pulling at the wrong time.
At the out set the timing of that brake is awful the guy (on the magnet) end is pushing long before the swing has reached the apex. The timing is all wrong .
There is never OU The timing of the 'reflected energy' is simply improved from poor to a little better when the magnets are moved. hence LEDs can light and energy consumption goe's down . -- Kind Regards Duncan
Quote from: Centraflow on 2020.04.13, 11:24:01
If you look carefully at the video you will see why.
Watch the drive bar (wood) as he moves the magnet, what do you see?? ah the standing wave or not, to be or not to be, that is the question, going into sink so it is not reflecting.
Regards
Mike 8)
That would have to be determined by further examination, as in my experience, video of moving parts like this can be very deceiving than in person and will be freq related. Like a gopro, a helicopter may look like the blades are not rotating at all but is in flight. If the motor is in basically direct drive at the coil end, and then a little bit of drag(2 red leds bout 120mw if driven to full brightness) happens, then Im not sure we would see a standing wave unless the wood flexes at a particular freq below the free running, no magnet freq. And according to lenz the introduction of the magnet causes(should, by our way of thinking) drag(slowing down, lower freq, more input current) and slowing it down allows it to lock onto that res freq? But this thing is speeding up, less input, and higher freq. If introducing lenz should slow things down, then why is it speeding up as the load gets heavier? The coil should be only moving the same distance back and forth no matter what speed, or resonance.So im, without testing yet, beginning to have a good feeling on this. It is worth a look. The sideways magnet and sideways coil is a new thought for me at the moment. Already looking at how to concentrate the magnets field to the area of the coil. Simple horseshoe shape should be very similar but more flux in use.
Mags
How about Mag's just as a shot I suggested that before the magnet is introduced the wood is slamming into the back board and energy is lost (timing is wrong) . the magnet releives that waste of energy the wood doesn't hit the back board or at least nothing like as hard. still as you say more info req'd and the camera plays tricks - still nice to think of something other than this pox for a little while - kind regards Duncan
Quote from: Duncan on 2020.04.13, 14:58:18
How about Mag's just as a shot I suggested that before the magnet is introduced the wood is slamming into the back board and energy is lost (timing is wrong) . the magnet releives that waste of energy the wood doesn't hit the back board or at least nothing like as hard. still as you say more info req'd and the camera plays tricks - still nice to think of something other than this pox for a little while - kind regards Duncan
;)
Hear is some things I have worked on that are similar, but not a motor drive. Just coils, magnets and a pendulum.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fmmg9UXnw4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OTyErrA9N8&t=167s
Like this guys deal, if we want to eliminate the resonance issue with the long board, just make a nice piston assy instead. getting rid of the board should increase eff. That will determine a lot to see what really going on. ^-^
Mags
an FG on your phone ? thats cool. that magnet on a cam reminded me of this guy's efforts
http://www.gap-power.com/videos/Full%20Length%20Video.wmv (http://www.gap-power.com/videos/Full%20Length%20Video.wmv)
which came from here
http://www.gap-power.com/videos-page-for-02-28-13-update.html (http://www.gap-power.com/videos-page-for-02-28-13-update.html)
really don't know where he went with it - I know I'd have to sell my house to buy those magnets he's using. ;)
Regards Duncan
Quote from: Duncan on 2020.04.13, 15:38:52
an FG on your phone ? thats cool. that magnet on a cam reminded me of this guy's efforts
http://www.gap-power.com/videos/Full%20Length%20Video.wmv (http://www.gap-power.com/videos/Full%20Length%20Video.wmv)
which came from here
http://www.gap-power.com/videos-page-for-02-28-13-update.html (http://www.gap-power.com/videos-page-for-02-28-13-update.html)
really don't know where he went with it - I know I'd have to sell my house to buy those magnets he's using. ;)
Regards Duncan
Nice setup, and huge magnets. very dangerous also. cant be careless in the least.
Yes. piston system like that. I sort of appreciate the machine when it is upright working against gravity thinking hmm, coil can help manipulate that heavy looking piston pretty good. But then I see all those 12v batteries under the bench. ??? gees. how much power is going to that coil? Not a small coil either. So the magnets hold up the piston, that high infact. Then the coil just has to cancel out just enough of the stator magnets field just to overcome the weight of the piston assy, and then disconnect the power and the piston rises again. So we would have to measure and calculate how much energy it takes to let the piston drop and compare that to the output energy. some look at it like oh, just turn on the coil and look at what it can do, not realizing, oh, it takes that much energy to to so.
Mags
Takes a while to get through it Mags -- but eventually he does it 'static' -- then he backs off and publishes no more . (he's got a family I guess)
sleepless nights thinking it can do for you . still I guess whist this pox farce continues we can revisit these things . Kindest -Duncan
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2020.04.12, 23:49:21
Intriguing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIbBaTf9m_M
But - he has not actually measured the output power yet...
Having played with Bedini's Zero force mortor I have had some experiebce with the side of a coil induction. However turning the magnet sideways also is a new one on me.
Here is this mornings experiment. Just a magnet in the lathe and a coil from out of the junk box.
The coil is 7.1 ohms and 17.78 mH bifilar but just using one section for the test.
I was deliberately attempting to keep the coil length and the magnet legth the same. The magnet is 11mm X 38mm.
To see what was happening I connected my homemade Gauss meter to the top of the core. so that is on channel B.
The first photo is the setup
The first Syscom DSO 101 shot is with the magnet rotating CCW with the soth pole leading
The second is with the magnet rotating CW
The third is with the magnet rotating CCW with the north pole leading
The forth is with the magnet rotating CW
So there seems to be some difference between the magnetic field and the induced volatge. Does this affect Lenz is a good question.
Ron
Thanks, Ronee - keep going on that path, will you? intriguing.
Hi Ronee,
The voltage peaks should coincide with the times where the slope of the flux waveform is a maximum. Thus the S shaped voltage waveform is exactly what would be expected from that flux waveform except that there is a time difference, in one case the flux waveform is lagging the voltage waveform and in another it is leading. That can be explained by the fact that your gaussmeter probe is not in the center of the coil, it is at one end. I don't see anything significant here, but thank you for doing the test. Lenz only comes into the equation when the coil is loaded and its current creates its own magnetic field that imposes force onto the magnet, and that is always a drag force.
Raymondslab's experiment is different in that the magnet oscillates back and forth, hence his voltage waveforms are more complex. His will exhibit a voltage peak as the magnet reverses direction, and the load current there will also create a drag force against the decelerating force on the magnet mass that is being carried by the con rod. And maybe that can explain his apparent anomalous result. When his coil is unloaded his input is driving losses that include motor losses, friction losses in his crude mechanical assembly and also heat losses on the cyclically stressed components like the cantilever spring and the con rod. That con rod is stressed by the forces needed to decelerate/accelerate the magnet's inertial mass at each end of the stoke, and it strikes me that the Lenz force is also decelerating that mass so effectively it relieves the inertial load on the con rod. So IMO his reduction in input power is not a sign of overunity, it is just a sign of reduced loss.
Smudge
Ray McConnell is pretty good about responding to questions posed to him on YouTube. Here's my recent exchange with him:
QuoteSteven Jones11 hours ago
Ray, I encourage you to put a much larger load on the output, such as a 10 or 100-ohm resistor, then repeat your test.
Ray McConnell4 hours ago
Thanks for comment ; for most efficient transfer of power from coil to load impedances must be matched.I don't have any coils for matching low resistances , but i did for the 350 ohm coil and it gained about another volt peak to peak while still lowering amperage.
Steven Jones1 second ago
Thanks for your replies! could you show this, with your 350 ohm coil? much appreciated.
I'm hoping he will produce another video, to show "and it gained about another volt peak to peak while still lowering amperage."
Quote from: Smudge on 2020.04.14, 09:01:07
Hi Ronee,
That can be explained by the fact that your gaussmeter probe is not in the center of the coil, it is at one end. I don't see anything significant here, but thank you for doing the test. Lenz only comes into the equation when the coil is loaded and its current creates its own magnetic field that imposes force onto the magnet, and that is always a drag force.
Smudge
Yes, I quite agree. What I thought unusual was the fact that the induced voltage did not change its polarity but that the flux polarity changed its polarity not with rotational direction but with which polarity pole was leading.
Ray's experiment while exceptional did not to my mind indicate one that would scale up. Imagine trying to reverse the direction of a large coil or large magnets and the wasted energy consumes the experiment, hence my attempt at full rotation.
Ron
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2020.04.13, 23:29:38
Thanks, Ronee - keep going on that path, will you? intriguing.
Thank you for the encouragement, second attempt underway, give me a day or two.
Ron
Hi guys,
Did a very quick test of Raymonds "no drag"
It's difficult to correctly verify since it's not just "no drag" but also "no output" ... you're going to need a very strong magnet or very high speed oscillations to see enough output power to correctly measure it against the prime movers input power.
Probably why Raymond only used LED's as loads.
I can't tell if there's anything special until I get the output closer to 1 watt.
Link to my quick test: https://youtu.be/urJMGK0W1K8
Regards
Luc
Good job, Luc! Thanks for the quick replication and test. O0
Evidently Raymond's magnet is a big neo.. not cheap, I suspect.
Thanks PhysicsProf
Actually I think Neo magnets have come back down in price, or maybe I got use to the high prices.
Here's a 3 inch long x 2 inch wide x 1 inch thick N50 Neo 350lbs pull force for $57. https://www.magnet4less.com/n50-neodymium-magnets-3-in-x-2-in-x-1-in-rare-earth-block
Regards
Luc
Quote from: gotoluc on 2020.04.15, 03:49:27
Hi guys,
Did a very quick test of Raymonds "no drag"
It's difficult to correctly verify since it's not just "no drag" but also "no output" ... you're going to need a very strong magnet or very high speed oscillations to see enough output power to correctly measure it against the prime movers input power.
Probably why Raymond only used LED's as loads.
I can't tell if there's anything special until I get the output closer to 1 watt.
Link to my quick test: https://youtu.be/urJMGK0W1K8
Regards
Luc
Hats off Luc, a perfect test bed! I agree with your conclusions.
One of my ideas I will mention is, you could double your output with a magnet of both sides of the coil LOL
Ron
Quote from: ronee on 2020.04.15, 15:29:15
Hats off Luc, a perfect test bed! I agree with your conclusions.
One of my ideas I will mention is, you could double your output with a magnet of both sides of the coil LOL
Ron
Thanks Ron,
Yes, a magnet on each side would give a better output.
I made another test with a 3 inch x 1 inch thick N52 Neo and still the output is low but enough to demonstrate Lenz is there.
Video demo: https://youtu.be/Mxu8pxc_bQU
Regards
Luc
Excellent work guys!
Does change in magnet orientation have an effect?
Quote from: ronee on 2020.04.14, 15:26:34
Thank you for the encouragement, second attempt underway, give me a day or two.
Ron
OK, second version, pretty much confirms what Luc has shown.
Setup on the RV. Double magnet stations of 19 mm X 25 mm neo's
Coil core 18mm X 24mm, coil 19mm wide, 6.7 ohms and 15.3 mH
Deliberate single diode output as connected one way gives .83 volts but reversing the coil leads gives 1.25 volts over a 20 ohm load. Unfortunately the RV counts up and down from 36 watts to 42 watts in a slow repeating pattern whether the coilis shorted, open, or on the 20 ohm load. So the output is so low as to make Lenz unmeasurable.
This was with a coil magnet ratio of 1:1. Thinking perhaps the bigger and longer the coil was I could double the output... Used a 2.25 inch long coil of 15 ohms and 135 mH... the voltage went from 1.25 to 1.52 volts (20 ohm load) [.9 ohm coil reversed]
So that wasn't an answer! End of experiment
Ron
edit: reversing the magnet polarity gives the same result as reversing the coil leads
Hi Ron,
I was under the impression what Raymond was doing differently (then a conventional gen coil) was his coil was stroked (or vibrated) withing the surface of the magnet (not exiting and re-entering the magnet)
It looks to me that you're using rotating magnets. Is this what you're doing?... if so, then I wouldn't think that replicates what he was doing?
Kind regards
Luc
Quote from: gotoluc on 2020.04.15, 21:35:57
Hi Ron,
I was under the impression what Raymond was doing differently (then a conventional gen coil) was his coil was stroked (or vibrated) withing the surface of the magnet (not exiting and re-entering the magnet)
It looks to me that you're using rotating magnets. Is this what you're doing?... if so, then I wouldn't think that replicates what he was doing?
Kind regards
Luc
Yes Luc, I explained from the begining, I thought, that I was taking a differnt approach in an effort to use the principle but gain more output. The rotation was to eliminate the waste motion of attempting to move a heavy coil or magnet back and forth.
Cheers, Ron
Correct me if I am wrong but is not Raymond's experiment merely an inefficient speaker motor?
Ron
Yes, I thought of that last night. That's basically what he has but I think he's only using one pole face of the magnet.
If he retested with a signal generator, amplifier and speaker to oscillate his coil he could get to higher frequencies instead of his inefficient mechanical system but it would be difficult to measure the input power of the amplifier once his coil is under load.
The other problem is the back and forth stroke distance ideally should stay the same but I don't think that will happen when you raise the frequency without increasing the amplitude which = more power in.
Regards
Luc
Quote from: ronee on 2020.04.15, 21:47:34
Correct me if I am wrong but is not Raymond's experiment merely an inefficient speaker motor?
Ron
Actually its not. The speaker magnet motor assy concentrates the magnets field to 'cut' the coil as it moves. In rays setup, the fields more likely on axis with the coil.
Would be interesting to know the coil makeup. Needs testing. The coil may be high turns for 2 'red' leds to affect the outcome of the motors work of moving all that around.
Mags
Quote from: gotoluc on 2020.04.15, 22:07:52
Yes, I thought of that last night. That's basically what he has but I think he's only using one pole face of the magnet.
If he retested with a signal generator, amplifier and speaker to oscillate his coil he could get to higher frequencies instead of his inefficient mechanical system but it would be difficult to measure the input power of the amplifier once his coil is under load.
The other problem is the back and forth stroke distance ideally should stay the same but I don't think that will happen when you raise the frequency without increasing the amplitude which = more power in.
Regards
Luc
Looks like both both to me?
Ron
Quote from: Magluvin on 2020.04.16, 01:05:55
Actually its not. The speaker magnet motor assy concentrates the magnets field to 'cut' the coil as it moves. In rays setup, the fields more likely on axis with the coil.
Would be interesting to know the coil makeup. Needs testing. The coil may be high turns for 2 'red' leds to affect the outcome of the motors work of moving all that around.
Mags
All that is lacking in Raymond's is the attraction to the south pole, being replaced by an attraction to the core.
a speaker motor is just a continuous row of magnets circling the coil/core
What I was attempting to show was that a speaker is not an OU device... why should Raymond's, which is basically the same operating principle, be OU?
Ron
A 1 inch wide x 2 inch long x 3/4 inch thick Neo magnet is a very popular size and most always magnetized through thickness N-S but if Ray's magnet is really magnetized as he wrote on his diagram, then he's using a diametrically magnetized version (not widely available)
Also, if his coil really is 350 Ohms then it's a very high turn coil of thin wire which = high Inductance which is not like a speaker voice coil.
My guess is the coil is an air coil (no core)
Without more information from Raymond It's unclear what is really taking place and how he concluded it's assisting once under load.
I wonder if Chet could try contacting him to see if he would be willing to participate at this topic?
Regards
Luc
Hi guy's
I now see my confusion of the magnet used in Raymond's device thanks to ronee.
Raymond's drawing of the magnet (top view) is out of proportion. The size he drew looks like 1" x 2" side of the magnet but it's the 3/4" x 1" top of a standard magnet turned sideways.
That now explains my confusion why I thought he was using a diametrically magnetized magnet.
No need to bother him now.
Thanks ronee
Regards
Luc
Decided to be fair and do another test with a magnet turned sideways so coil has both North and South.
However, output is even less so there's no way to confirm if Lenz is present once under load.
Link to video demo: https://youtu.be/iijuXV8GppA
Regards
Luc
Quote from: ronee on 2020.04.16, 01:28:56
All that is lacking in Raymond's is the attraction to the south pole, being replaced by an attraction to the core.
a speaker motor is just a continuous row of magnets circling the coil/core
What I was attempting to show was that a speaker is not an OU device... why should Raymond's, which is basically the same operating principle, be OU?
Ron
Its actually like this in the pic below, unless you alter the magnetic assy.
Mags
Quote from: ronee on 2020.04.15, 21:47:34
Correct me if I am wrong but is not Raymond's experiment merely an inefficient speaker motor?
Ron
the voice coil is moving in a very thin gap of concentrated flux. The center pole piece and the upper plate guide the magnets field to the gap, which directs the flux across the windings all the way around.
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on 2020.04.17, 00:02:30
the voice coil is moving in a very thin gap of concentrated flux. The center pole piece and the upper plate guide the magnets field to the gap, which directs the flux across the windings all the way around.
Mags
Yep, the speaker is well designed and very efficient, not like Raymond's single sided approach, very inefficient.
One can use a speaker as a generator also... like in this balancing machine example.
Ron
Quote from: Magluvin on 2020.04.17, 00:02:30
the voice coil is moving in a very thin gap of concentrated flux. The center pole piece and the upper plate guide the magnets field to the gap, which directs the flux across the windings all the way around.
Mags
Ah yes, a perfect description of logical improvements to Raymond's device.
The first improvement would be to add one more magnet to the outher side of the coil for a slight increase in output.
The next step would be to add a magnet all the way around, like in the attachment mockup.
The final improvement would then be to put on a backing plate and fasten the core to it, voila a speaker generator.
Ron
Yess that is more like what he is doing, and is a more concentrated field. like this below is another way...
Mags
If it does work the way he is interpreting it, then there is only a short window in which the coil moves back and forth, avoiding moving into the regions where the field is more cutting the coil similar to the way a speaker motor is designed to work.
Mags
Hi everyone,
I have now fully tested Raymondslab "no drag" generator.
Demo video: https://youtu.be/Y0lyezE-LVE
I later (after video demo) added the scopes current probe to get math power data.
The output power to the 24 LED was calculated to be around 180 to 200 mW.
The prime mover input power increased (once under load) by around 10mA x 28V = 280mw -180mW = 100mW under unity.
We can now be sure this one is put to bed without any doubt.
Regards
Luc
Quote from: gotoluc on 2020.04.18, 20:34:18
Hi everyone,
I have now fully tested Raymondslab "no drag" generator.
Demo video: https://youtu.be/Y0lyezE-LVE
I later (after video demo) added the scopes current probe to get math power data.
The output power to the 24 LED was calculated to be around 180 to 200 mW.
The prime mover input power increased (once under load) by around 10mA x 28V = 280mw -180mW = 100mW under unity.
We can now be sure this one is put to bed without any doubt.
Regards
Luc
Nice work. I have my spring pendulum to try something more similar to Rays. The pendulum will be driven by a coil and magnet to a resonant state, and then load up a moving coil instead of moving the magnet in. The reasoning is the same as yours Luc. We should see the same effect only loading and unloading the moving coil if the claim is correct, with no difference whether the magnet was close or far. Rays test lacks a few things such as that.
Mags
Thanks Mags,
So, do you think Raymond's mechanical oscillation frequency is the same as his coils resonant frequency?
That's the only thing I can't check.
The coil would need an insane amount of turns (with no cap) to resonate at the low mechanical frequency!
Do you think that's why his coils dc resistance is 350 Ohms?
Good luck and report what you find good or bad.
Regards
Luc
Quote from: gotoluc on 2020.04.19, 20:48:04
Thanks Mags,
So, do you think Raymond's mechanical oscillation frequency is the same as his coils resonant frequency?
That's the only thing I can't check.
The coil would need an insane amount of turns (with no cap) to resonate at the low mechanical frequency!
Do you think that's why his coils dc resistance is 350 Ohms?
Good luck and report what you find good or bad.
Regards
Luc
When I did some stuff with pulse motors that spun up to the resonant freq of the coil(and cap. large coil.) the rotor wanted to stick at that rpm. If you drive the rotor past that point, then it will accelerate onward.Had to deal with reed switches reaching their resonance also. So changing the cap would allow me to see that the LC held the rotor to a locked freq of rotation. As long as the LC freq is steady, so will the rpms be steady. Well pretty much depending on load characteristics.
I was thinking earlier that the lobing motor cam axial and the physical connection to the coil were hopefully of decent tolerance and strong enough for all of that physical happening going on, but there may be discrepancies we cant see from afar. His leds, if connected parallel but opposing polarity, say red led, 20ma, 2v at full power, then maybe a 100ohm coil and maybe 40mw P-P? . If in same polarity, 80mw . If in series then maybe a 200ohm coil, 80mw. Just possible guess. He wasnt smoking leds.
So we have to think, is 80mw enough to affect that moving system enough to cause what is happening? More info to clarify if there is any magnetic hardware near the coil on the arm.
Would need to try different motor rpms and test to eliminate any resonant effects that may be causing the result. Mike may be right. cant say unless its made the way the guy set it up, or we will need to try with and without mechanical resonance.
Has anyone asked him to come to the forum?
Mags
Good work, Luc and Mags! Thank you O0
I have invited Raymond to join in our discussion and quest here. We'll see if he responds...
Quote from: Magluvin on 2020.04.19, 22:56:43
When I did some stuff with pulse motors that spun up to the resonant freq of the coil(and cap. large coil.) the rotor wanted to stick at that rpm. If you drive the rotor past that point, then it will accelerate onward.Had to deal with reed switches reaching their resonance also. So changing the cap would allow me to see that the LC held the rotor to a locked freq of rotation. As long as the LC freq is steady, so will the rpms be steady. Well pretty much depending on load characteristics.
I was thinking earlier that the lobing motor cam axial and the physical connection to the coil were hopefully of decent tolerance and strong enough for all of that physical happening going on, but there may be discrepancies we cant see from afar. His leds, if connected parallel but opposing polarity, say red led, 20ma, 2v at full power, then maybe a 100ohm coil and maybe 40mw P-P? . If in same polarity, 80mw . If in series then maybe a 200ohm coil, 80mw. Just possible guess. He wasnt smoking leds.
So we have to think, is 80mw enough to affect that moving system enough to cause what is happening? More info to clarify if there is any magnetic hardware near the coil on the arm.
Would need to try different motor rpms and test to eliminate any resonant effects that may be causing the result. Mike may be right. cant say unless its made the way the guy set it up, or we will need to try with and without mechanical resonance.
Has anyone asked him to come to the forum?
Mags
Thank you, Mags.
I think you will find I am right. and if nobody builds exactly as he has built it or at least with the movement variables that he has,
you will never see what he has.
If your connecting rod is not flexible you have it wrong.
It has to flex.If the connection of the end of the rod at the coil is not loose, you have it wrong.
It has to be able to move like your rist movement.The connecting rod is like a delay line.
The closer the magnet is to the coil the bigger the Lenz effect and the stronger the standing wave which in this case decouples any resistance between the motor and the coil/magnet, the motor now runs in a no-load state as far as the BEMF from the coil.
Now where have I see that before C.C
Regards
Mike 8)
Hello, Mike - good to hear from you!
You may be right again...
Quote from: Centraflow on 2020.04.20, 09:33:38
Thank you, Mags.
I think you will find I am right. and if nobody builds exactly as he has built it or at least with the movement variables that he has, you will never see what he has.
If your connecting rod is not flexible you have it wrong. It has to flex.
If the connection of the end of the rod at the coil is not loose, you have it wrong. It has to be able to move like your rist movement.
The connecting rod is like a delay line.
The closer the magnet is to the coil the bigger the Lenz effect and the stronger the standing wave which in this case decouples any resistance between the motor and the coil/magnet, the motor now runs in a no-load state as far as the BEMF from the coil.
Now where have I see that before C.C
Regards
Mike 8)
A very positive and reasuring assement. Please let me know when you have this up to 500 watt output. I have a 500 watt windmill alternator that I would love to use. Living in the city I can't put that big a windmill on top of my house so this would be perfect.
Ron
Quote from: ronee on 2020.04.21, 15:16:34
A very positive and reasuring assement. Please let me know when you have this up to 500 watt output. I have a 500 watt windmill alternator that I would love to use. Living in the city I can't put that big a windmill on top of my house so this would be perfect.
Ron
I gave my assessment right at the beginning and then left for others to look at it, then Luc "put it to bed", then Mag's made a comment that I may be right and I followed up on that.
I have at no time said
I am 100% right only what
I "think" is right, you can take it or leave it I really could not care less, and that is the last comment I will make on this thread and I let you get on or not as the case may be.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAXx0018QCc&feature=youtu.be
Regards
Mike 8)
Quote from: Centraflow on 2020.04.21, 17:44:20
I gave my assessment right at the beginning and then left for others to look at it, then Luc "put it to bed", then Mag's made a comment that I may be right and I followed up on that.
I have at no time said I am 100% right only what I "think" is right, you can take it or leave it I really could not care less, and that is the last comment I will make on this thread and I let you get on or not as the case may be.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAXx0018QCc&feature=youtu.be
Regards
Mike 8)
Well pardon me... that was written tongue in cheek... mostly cheek.
Can't we have fun on here to?
Ron
Quote from: Centraflow on 2020.04.21, 17:44:20
I gave my assessment right at the beginning and then left for others to look at it, then Luc "put it to bed"
Just to be clear, at no time or place in this topic did I put your assessment "to bed" as you wrote.
After doing further tests (deductive possibilities) it may have reinforced your original assessment could have more possibilities of being correct.
What Magluvin wrote was saying the obvious after all my tests failed to prove anything else, which BTW I thought of but didn't write for the very reason you just wrote, you cannot be 100% sure your assessment is correct.
That's all I can do with the available information at this time. There's no way of testing your assessment. Only the original device could be tested for this possibility.
I think your reaction to Ron's post is a little too much.
Kind regards
Luc
Quote from: gotoluc on 2020.04.21, 20:56:29
Just to be clear, at no time or place in this topic did I put your assessment "to bed" as you wrote.
Kind regards
Luc
I think he meant you put it to bed by showing it doesnt work the way ray says, and didnt mean it was about his assessment. ;)
Mags
Hey Luc.
Just saw your second vid. I believe your magnet config with the single pole field fully cutting the windings are not the same as Rays. I wish I had time to play with this but I have been out of work and finally got a few decent jobs at the moment. In the first vid, it seems as though there is a similar thing happening when your coil moves over the N magnets and then the S magnets.
Below I have depicted what you are showing and what I believe the way it should be, in order. Is the rod the coil is mounted to magnetic?
Ill try to make some time this evening with my pendulum with a mod to try and duplicate what Im trying to convey here.
Not trying to insult what you did. Crazy nice setup there. Just think some things are not the same as Rays. Not enough to put it to bed yet I dont believe. Imagine the field from rays magnet and its position to the coil. The fields out of the magnet in the area of the coil, are more inline with the coils motion(not perfect but mostly) rather than directly 90 deg cutting the windings as in conventional current generation.
Ill see what I can do...
Mags
Hey Mags,
Your first image is what I did in my first video and then again with a stronger 3 inch Neo in my second video.
Your second image is what I did in the third video and then again the same magnet poles but wider and surrounded (closed around coil) in the fourth video.
So, don't know what else you're talking about other then instead of only using the thin N-S sides of a magnet I'm using the N-S faces of magnets.
As far as I'm concerned it's the same but the way I did it the field strength (projection) is greater and the reason why I did it this way.
Regards
Luc
Quote from: gotoluc on 2020.04.22, 02:40:48
Hey Mags,
Your first image is what I did in my first video and then again with a stronger 3 inch Neo in my second video.
Your second image is what I did in the third video and then again the same magnet poles but wider and surrounded (closed around coil) in the fourth video.
So, don't know what else you're talking about other then instead of only using the thin N-S sides of a magnet I'm using the N-S faces of magnets.
As far as I'm concerned it's the same but the way I did it the field strength (projection) is greater and the reason why I did it this way.
Regards
Luc
Ah. I missed 2 vids
Ok, the 3rd vid is closer. Im trying something here and prob wont have a vid till tomorrow as its late. Will see what happens.
Mags
Here is a pic so far. The bottom coils will be the driver with adjustable AC sine, and the top is where I have a few coils to try. On the top ledge behind the top coil im making a platform for testing different magnets.
Mags
Ok, time to go. Late. I got the thing hooked up. Function Generator Android app to my amp on my bench to the to lower coils. 4ohm coils series and 2 3/4x1/8 neo disks on the pendulum center of the 2 coils. 9.1hz with all that jazz on top. But it moves well at resonance and no coil heating.
Want to have resonance here. I can detune the input higher or lower and it doesnt take much to stop swingin and see how the loaded coil may change the resonant freq enough to put things in resonance again. And other reasons on my mind.
Night
Mags
Hi Mags,
I remember that setup when you were doing some mechanical resonance tests with TinMan.
That may be a good idea to have the arm vibrating at resonance.
I wonder what would happen if both the arm and coil were at the same resonance, where mechanical meets electrical in natural harmony?
Makes one think C.C
Regards
Luc
Nice looking set-up, Mags! O0
Ok, will have to do a vid tomorrow. So far all tests show that loading does not help.
Saw a vid from a Russian guy that Im going to make a thread for. His motor really speed up when output shorted.
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on 2020.04.23, 08:16:43
Saw a vid from a Russian guy that Im going to make a thread for. His motor really speed up when output shorted.
Mags
Hi Mags
Quite sure I've recently seen the Russian video you're talking about but I want to remind you that shorting a coil doesn't prove anything because if the core is made of some cheap metal it will produce much eddy currents losses and as a result when you short a coil with such a core those losses are released and you think you have a free lunch but you don't because those losses are there right from the start added to the prime mover even with coil unloaded.
So if a generator is not efficient from the start you're proving nothing. Plus, try to quantify how much power a shorted coil represents... it = nothing.
Many have been and are still fooled by this effect.
Over 4 years ago I took the time to make videos (two parts) to demonstrate and help educate the research community about this problem.
Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr3x0xTqM_k
Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYGM4UlnqTM
Kind regards
Luc
Ray has new vid, but no comments allowed C.C
Now changed his conclusion on the cause of speedup.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P38hLgXmA4k
Mags
Thanks for the update Mags.
Well that's a turn in events. I'm at a loss as to what causes this ???
Usually when you place a solid Iron (non laminated) core in a moving magnet field the eddy currents causes a drag and don't assist as Ray is demonstrating.
However, as I've been pointing out the magnet never leaves the core.
Would be interested to get Smudge's view on what could be happening.
Unfortunately Ray did not adjust the input voltage to confirm if this happens at all frequencies.
Regards
Luc
Quote from: gotoluc on 2020.04.30, 15:28:24
Thanks for the update Mags.
Well that's a turn in events. I'm at a loss as to what causes this ???
Usually when you place a solid Iron (non laminated) core in a moving magnet field the eddy currents causes a drag and don't assist as Ray is demonstrating.
However, as I've been pointing out the magnet never leaves the core.
Would be interested to get Smudge's view on what could be happening.
Unfortunately Ray did not adjust the input voltage to confirm if this happens at all frequencies.
Regards
Luc
Well as I mentioned before, I questioned if there was nay metal metalic parts in the area of the coil, and apparently there is. He doesnt allow comments on this one. But I suppose I can try some things with the pendulum. The coils did not work any which way I put them with the magnets in many different ways. I am limited to data on my hotspot so I didnt put a vid on YT that would show that it didnt work.
Mags
Quote from: gotoluc on 2020.04.30, 15:28:24
Would be interested to get Smudge's view on what could be happening.
I think the long connecting rod could have something to do with this. As Centraflow said earlier this can act like a delay line, not an electrical delay line but a mechanical one. For any force waveform applied at one end the (acoustic?) velocity for the stress waveform means that force does not immediately appear at the other end, it will be time delayed. And that time delay could be different between compression force and tension force, since under compression the rod can bend. Note that in both cases the rod is storing energy like a spring, in the bending case that energy could be quite significant. Note also that this cyclic stress will also lose energy in the form of heat. It is quite possible that his reduction in input power accompanied by a speeding up is merely the effect of reduced losses. But it may not be so, a mechanical delay might be the holy grail we are looking for to obtain OU.
I am reminded of the displays you sometimes see in shop windows where a small electric motor that is out of sight above the window drives a small crank to which is attached a very long thin coil spring hanging down. An object is attached to the lower end of the spring and that object moves up and down over a large displacement distance that is far greater than the crank throw. If you analyze the up and down time waveform of the object you find that it is not in phase with the up and down motion of the crank.
Smudge
Well since Ray is not taking comments any longer, we cannot get any questions in for him to possibly answer. One question I would ask is for him to change the speed of the motor to see if there is any resonance happening at any point in the speed change, and or if it can happen without the magnet at all. ^-^ Like if what he shows affects the system the way he believes, then changing the speed should not really alter things much as the speed change should be able eliminate the probability of resonance as the culprit.
Mags
Thank you Smudge for sharing your opinion which supports Mike's original suggestion of what could be taking place.
Like I've written before and now Mags, it's very sad Ray didn't vary the oscillation frequency to confirm if this is a delay line effect or not.
I'll see what I can do to ask Ray to check this.
Kind regards
Luc
So I've posted a comments to Ray's first video (attached below) in hopes to get more answers.
I've also noticed that Ray's first demo https://youtu.be/MIbBaTf9m_M the voltage is set at 4 volts and in his second video https://youtu.be/P38hLgXmA4k his voltage is set at 3.3 volts, so we do have a small variation in frequency and the same effect still manifests.
If he does get my youtube message and further tests frequency variations we may get a 100% confirmation of what is taking place.
Regards
Luc
Raymond has posted another video -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMhuGEO2cUc&feature=em-uploademail
Interesting... hopefully more to come.
Well, Ray starts the video by saying he's going to try different frequencies and drive voltages but doesn't do it, plus doesn't end up showing anything new.
However, at one point he got the camera close enough that I could hear a distinctive clacking mechanical sound when he removed the magnet and then when he puts it back it sounds way smoother. To me that's a giveaway his device is going from a non efficient state (frequency) causing the clacking sound which adds mechanical drag to the prime mover, then when he adds the magnet it's load dampens out the waste causing a slight increase in rpm and obviously uses less current.
Until Ray demonstrates this effect can occur at any RPM by lowering the input voltage, then it's not looking like there's anything unusual.
Plus disabling comments and asking for donations is not helping his cause.
Regards
Luc
Another video, and observations by Ray:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj7c5d3f8sU&feature=em-uploademail
Well, that's interesting but it's also a change from what he was previously demonstrating.
Thanks for the update
Luc
I had seen the vid. One thing I was wondering is how much resistance is the track that the object moves back and forth on. Could the addition of the magnet help reduce that friction by lifting it a bit as it moves.... His theory's change a bit for each showing. Dunno. Theory on the first one and how it was set up had me thinking. But now I think there is just something else going on. Firstly he would have to use a standardized voltage for all tests. Check the input amps of just the drive motor alone. Then with just the connecting rod, then with the object load alone to see the amount of losses incurred just there alone and then see if the intro of the magnet overcomes any of the previous if not possibly more.
Mags
Mags, look at the video again, because he addressed the possible conclusion of reduced track friction.
Regards
Luc
Quote from: gotoluc on 2020.05.14, 02:52:02
Mags, look at the video again, because he addressed the possible conclusion of reduced track friction.
Regards
Luc
Seen that. Not sure its not unless I see it.
Would need to maybe set up a rig to take measurements of the pressure on the connecting rod at different angles of the crank drive to see if there is particular areas of motion that are now helping during a cycle.
Would be cool if like a spring pendulum like mine could resonate at his particular freq, as if the effect is real, the pendulum should vibrate longer with the magnet introduced than the pendulum rundown on its own.
Mags
Ray's latest experiment: 7.5 V drive, so a different frequency involved. LED lights from generator effect.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gBfaLPlMJA&feature=em-uploademail
Posted May 16, 2020.
Thanks PhysicsProf,
I don't know if you noticed but that video is no 3, so I looked to find no.2 which has not been posted here yet and is very interesting since Ray demonstrates how it works.
This is reminding me of Floor's (at OU) Twist drive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1B9NnRUMvU
Regards
Luc
Thank you, Luc O0 I had missed that No. 2 video. Interesting..
Raymond has a new video, #4 in the series:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qLIo6e1ek8
Hi Folks,
now it took me some hours to find out what Raymonds first experiment is all about. Raymond unfortunately misses the basic systematics in proving a physical
principle he believes he has discovered. The most important law in scientific experiments is the "control-experiment".
What does it mean in this case ? He needed to replace the mass of the parallel magnets on the sled with an equivalent non-magnetic mass.
I can predict that he will get an even better "energy-input-gain" in comparison to the one with magnets on the sled. Why ?
Because without the big disc-magnet in place his setup equals this device here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_current_brake#/media/File:Eddy_currents_due_to_magnet.svg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_current_brake#/media/File:Eddy_currents_due_to_magnet.svg)
Now if he places the disc-magnet in the slot one magnetic bar close to the disc-magnet gets partly saturated and the magnetic field of the parallel magnet on the sled
gets distorted in such a way that part of the magnetic retarding effect is lost.
There is no OU-effect. He just removed part of the magnetic-retarding-effect.
...and no I will not comment on his channel because I do not educate people in his age....only here will I post my viewpoint because I hate other people losing time by repeating pointless experiments. He should have known better.
Mike
Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qLIo6e1ek8
Hi All
This guy didn't prove anything. He provides energy by pushing the mobile against the magnetic field, and when the threshold of repulsion is reached, the mobile is propelled by the magnetic potential energy he had acquired.
This is as stupid as claiming that when you make a mobile roll up a hill, the fact that it then rolls downhill would be proof that you are drawing energy from the Earth's static gravitational field.
It's all about potential energy. The difference in potential energy between the start and end positions, whether it is magnetic or gravitational, is used as energy to move the mobile forward. In a certain sense, it is indeed extracting energy from the field, but at the cost of a final configuration that is not the starting one. In a loop, the start and end position being the same, there is no difference in potential energy, so the system cannot be looped, the operator will have to provide energy again to bring the mobile back to the point where it can be propelled. The field is only a means of using the potential energy, not a source.
I can't count the number of times I've seen people claim this stupidity that they would "harvest motion from static magnetic field". After hundreds of similar experiments on Youtube,
which looping always fails, it's time to draw the consequences and avoid wasting everyone's time relaying this nonsens from do-it-yourselfers who think they are new Tesla when they misinterpret banalities of physics known since the 19th century, and are so trapped by their Dunning-Kruger effect that they want to teach us their "art" on youtube. C.C
Rays new vid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peR8ywk_tEM
He is being fooled by his hand. The first shot looks good. But the second reveals a lot....
Firstly I dont believe his table is level as when he moves the car in position it seems to want to roll downhill a bit, and in the direction of the intended demo.
Then as he introduces the top magnet assy, he makes a mistake. I think he had the car too far back and when he introduced the top mag assy the car moved backwards ;) So his intended setup purposely needs to bring in the top magnet in a position that is just above the gate to avoid the issue I described.
Since he has jumped from the other device to this, possibly he has realized the other stuff just wasnt 'it'. Otherwise not try to continually improve on the original.
Mags