A few of us have been coordinating to perform some Tesla-style long-range communications experiments these next few months, using the ground as a longitudinal medium. :)
Adrian Marsh's synopsis here:
Quote
http://www.energeticforum.com/forum/energetic-forum-discussion/renewable-energy/tesla/tesla-energy-research/tesla-wireless-communications/510802-transatlantic-telluric-communication-experiment
"The transatlantic telluric communication project is an experimental attempt to transfer power between two specially arranged Tesla transformers, one in the US and one in the UK. Electrical power and hence modulated communication in the form of Morse Code or low bandwidth telephony will be transferred between TX and RX bidirectionally. If this experiment could prove successful it will represent one of the most significant Tesla based experiments since Tesla's own era, and also serve to validate the principles, apparatus, and experiments that Tesla was engaged with. Even if not successful it should reveal a wealth of research into the underlying principles and suitable apparatus for further investigations and experiments, and whether telluric power transfer and communication is actually possible over such large distances through the earth."
"Tesla was originally arranging telluric transfer of power at 45Kc which requires very large coil dimensions, and powerful apparatus and generator equipment to drive the TMT system. This intended experiment will start in the 160m amateur radio band, at say 1.86Mc, where coil dimensions and generator apparatus and power are much more manageable, and work down in frequency band from this if required, and as resources become available."
In prep for these upcoming experiments, I spent the last couple days fabricating a large Tesla Coil secondary out of UHMW polyethylene.
* Construction technique and calculating dimensions+wire length is outlined here if anyone's interested in building high-efficiency open-frame Tesla Coils: https://hakasays.com/blog/tesla-high...-construction/
* The target frequency is just above the 160m HAM radio band, so about 2-2.4mc.
* Using RG316 coax cable since it is silver coated and has a quite large surface area. Only the outer sheath is being used in this instance, same as Adrian's setup in UK.
* I intentionally left it oversize to allow lots of room for trimming to hit the target frequency. It's better to be 10 feet too long than one inch too short.
This next week for me will be trying various permutations of secondaries and extra coils so I can get a comfortable baseline to work with before trimming things down to-size.
I'll be using a vector network analyzer to help with this process, and I will try to document a clear process for others that wish to follow along themselves. Things get really wonky when measuring multiple interacting coils, as the series and parallel modes all play an interact with each-other in interesting ways. C.C
The problem with this link may be the background noise. Better than a Morse transmission, I advise you to use the FT8 digital mode for your project, which allows to decode signals down to -20 dB below the background noise. The FT8 is widely used, but there are others, down to -30 dB, see here with the software: https://physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/k1jt/wsjtx.html
(if you are a ham radio operator, you must already know them).
Ham radio have already communicated around the earth on these frequencies.
If the signal passes, how will you distinguish your transmission from a classical radio transmission?
Quote from: F6FLT on 2022.08.04, 15:49:10
The problem with this link may be the background noise. Better than a Morse transmission, I advise you to use the FT8 digital mode for your project, which allows to decode signals down to -20 dB below the background noise.
This is a good point.
We will be trying multiple modes, partly because different modes can provide additional non-herzian gradients that work better in parallel resonance, and partly because one preliminary experiment actually reported better performance with voice than with CW.
Quote
Ham radio have already communicated around the earth on these frequencies.
If the signal passes, how will you distinguish your transmission from a classical radio transmission?
1 - Since none of our systems will have radiating antennae, the transverse wave should be minimized, especially at such a low frequency band.
With 100 watts it's proven difficult to pick up *anything over a mile away using an ungrounded aerial with these setups.
1.5 - Receiving stations with conventional aerials will also be used for cross-comparison. Both onside as well as through online public SDR's. There will inevitably be some bleedover as transverse modulation is required to sustain the longitudinal mode.
2 - Performing the tests over a period of time should also rule out aerial and ionospheric skip (since there are times when conditions do not allow skip propagation, especially in the 160m band.
If we get consistent performance over a long period with no significant change in reception quality, that would fairly conclusively rule out transverse propagation.
3 - There is a small chance we'll get measurable power at shorter distance (2-10 miles). Recovering >30% power at a receiving station through the earth at those distances using the ground as a transmission cavity would confirm longitudinal displacement.
Dr Adrian Marsh has the best bench results with this so far using a pair of TMT's to send 500 watts a short distance over a 40awg wire at 99%+ efficiency. https://www.am-innovations.com/high-efficiency-transference-of-electric-power/
At the moment I'm getting a feel for the three-coil arrangements as there are a lot of interesting dynamics that influence each-other between secondary and extra. Not only are the resonant frequencies dragged up/down in concatenated mode, but each coil will 'push' the other up/down in frequency as well.
For example, you can have an Extra coil that naturally resonates at 2.1mc in-air at 1/4-wave,
but concatenating it in series with a secondary can bring that frequency all the way down to 1.43mc, or all the way UP to 2.49mc depending on the characteristics of the secondary. :o ;)
It's a weird, complex interaction that will take a few good days to piece together.
@Hakasays
I agree with your points 1.5, 2 and 3, which eliminates the risk of confusion with the classical wireless. For 1 also, if precautions are taken, because even a coil can radiate hertzian waves, and also the mains wires that feed the setup and can get more or less coupled to the "hot" conductors and make antenna. It is of course unlikely that this would create a significant field at great distances.
For tuning, a similar idea is to place inside the large coil another rotatable coil, connected in series. If you turn it from 0 to 180°, it will be in the same direction or opposite to the other, with all the intermediate degrees, its effect will reduce or increase the inductance, which allows a considerable variation of the tuning range. This is used in antenna couplers.
I was also interested in longitudinal waves at one time, but without success, because of the pollution of the effect sought by the classical electromagnetic field (Kühn's experiment (http://exvacuo.free.fr/div/Sciences/Dossiers/EM/LongitudinalEM/Exp%c3%a9riences/Stephen%20K%C3%BChn%20-%20Experimental%20investigation%20of%20an%20unusual%20induction%20effect%20and%20its%20interpretation%20as%20a%20necessary%20consequence%20of%20Weber%20electrodynamics%20-%20JEE%202021.pdf), Zimmermann's experiment (http://exvacuo.free.fr/div/Sciences/Dossiers/EM/LongitudinalEM/Exp%c3%a9riences/R%20k%20Zimmerman%20-%20Reception%20of%20longitudinal%20vector%20potential%20radiation%20with%20a%20plasma%20antenna%20-%20JAP.pdf), or simple capacif coupling experiment at tens of m). I will therefore follow with interest your project, a UK/US link being able to remove any doubt.
After a hundred feet of wasted/cut coax, I'm finally honing in on a good procedure for building+tuning a Tesla Magnifying Transmitter.😙
Short version: You need to wind your secondary and extra coil to about 1.5x your target frequency.
Measure each coil separately with a VNA or function generator and scope/meter until you have a match, THEN join them together and measure the series resonant frequencies.
If your frequency is too low, you trim an equal amount from both coils until you are close to your desired target. Keep going back+forth tuning each coil separately to ensure they stay roughly the same.
With the same wire, when both have roughly equal length, they will also have equal weight, which corresponds to roughly equal capacitance, which causes both halves to interact most strongly in longitudinal mode.
Or at least this is the assessment I am arriving at. There are a LOT of small factors revolving around capacitance, but they can more-or-less be solved by adjusting the aerial height of the Extra, by lower the extra deeper into the secondary's magnetic field, or by adding layers of polyethylene tape to one of the two coils.
My latest proper coil has both secondary+extra at 2.35mc, resulting in a concatenated series resonance of 1.487mc
(still need to clip both coils a smidges to tune it up to the 160 meters band)🙂
At this rate I should have the first TMT up and running Sunday, though I want to wind a second so I can do short-distance experiments and fine-tuning.🤠😉
Myself and a couple other HAMs performed some rudimentary tests yesterday on 160m to see if transverse waves could be picked up through-the-ground in transverse mode over hundreds-of-miles (no signal was received).
But since I had a pair of Tesla-type coils set up and tuned to the same frequency I thought I'd try transmitting power between them in a couple brief experiments.
Enjoy:
https://www.bitchute.com/video/mFjOoQ3aLzqG/
Also posting Dr Adrian Marsh's setup that mine is being modeled after.
https://www.am-innovations.com/high-efficiency-transference-of-electric-power/
In the final part of the video he is sending 600w across a 40awg wire lighting a large floodlight on one end with 99.5%+ efficiency. :o :o
Have you achieved actual energy magnification from your extra coils yet?
Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.08.09, 14:56:35
Have you achieved actual energy magnification from your extra coils yet?
In terms of excess energy, no.
I treat magnification factor as 'applied Q', or you could say transformer action via resonance instead of winding ratios.
So a one-wire extra coil with a Q factor of 300 could be considered a 300:1 magnifying transformer, forming a high current node at one end and a high voltage node at the other end.
I'm personally of the opinion that non-conservative systems
all rely mathematically on parametric variation (of inductance/capacitance/impedance).
In terms of impedance, this arrangement is symmetric so I doubt there will be any noticeable production/destruction.
However I do have some future plans to verify the parametric hypothesis. One test will be intermittently breaking the ground-lead connection of the coil at an even harmonic. The secondary/extra would become a half-wave coil during part of the cycle and a quarter-wave coil during another portion, thus modulating the impedance. :)
Are you tuning for the transverse resonance or the longitudinal resonance?
Once the radiant energy effect is present the extra coil should magnify the power applied. This is my understanding.
Note that this would be with uni-directional impulses that never go to zero, looks like switching over a DC bias.
Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.08.09, 15:43:40
Are you tuning for the transverse resonance or the longitudinal resonance?
lol, BOTH. ;D
I'm following Adrian's setups for now, which is tuning the transverse mode at the Tx/Rx radio frequency, and matching the parallel modes in magnitude of impedance (so they act as equal plates of a virtual capacitor).
I'm still exploring the waves and possibilities, there are almost certainly some simple configurations with esoteric results that we haven't tried yet. :P
Turning up the power to the longitudinal transmission system and powering more substantial loads through a single wire, bulb, and a 200ma fuse all in series.
https://www.bitchute.com/video/5vJpSnIpsgGs/
This was another somewhat cobbled-together test as I'm still working at finishing+tuning the second Tesla Magnifying Transmitter. A matched set should perform much better ;)
Once the second TMT is finished and tuned-in, I can start upping the efficiency and do some short-range power tests between ground rods and/or impossibly thin wires. ;D
As I can't really afford $800 for a decked-out Bird meter at the moment, near-future tests will be done by reading calibrated light output from the higher-power bulbs. An arbitrary bulb or set of bulbs can be calibrated against a kill-a-watt meter to a precision lux meter, and that can then be referenced to get a fair idea on total power consumed in the load.
Any terminal at the end of a line has a capacitance with respect to the electrical ground.
As this capacitance has a low impedance at high frequencies, the "single wire transmission" is in fact a classical transmission with return by capacitive coupling.
If the system is resonant, the effect is even more effective because the impedance of the loop circuit is reduced to the resistance of the conductors.
Quote from: F6FLT on 2022.08.11, 10:30:31
Any terminal at the end of a line has a capacitance with respect to the electrical ground.
As this capacitance has a low impedance at high frequencies, the "single wire transmission" is in fact a classical transmission with return by capacitive coupling.
If the system is resonant, the effect is even more effective because the impedance of the loop circuit is reduced to the resistance of the conductors.
Capacitive coupling is a good way to describe it. O0 Except IMO the top terminal of the Extra coil acts as a 'virtual ground', and the lower terminal becomes one plate of the capacitor.
Depending on tuning and efficiency, the wire connecting the two coils then begins to behave more as a dielectric than as a conductor, which is why little or no conduction current shows up in it, and why transfer efficiency starts to go through the roof.
For intercontinental communications, the Earth is then treated as a dielectric medium rather than a conducting one. The high quality ground is still required though as it determines the effective surface area of each 'plate'.
So in these systems, the goal is effectively to maximize dielectric displacement current and to minimize conventional conduction current.
Hakasays
QuoteCapacitive coupling is a good way to describe it. Except IMO the top terminal of the Extra coil acts as a 'virtual ground', and the lower terminal becomes one plate of the capacitor.
Depending on tuning and efficiency, the wire connecting the two coils then begins to behave more as a dielectric than as a conductor, which is why little or no conduction current shows up in it, and why transfer efficiency starts to go through the roof.
That's really interesting stuff and I was doing some experiments on both ends of the spectrum relating to radiation and detection.
I was wondering how far a given potential could travel over the Earth and how sensitive the equipment would need to be to detect it. So I built a very sensitive series/cascading charge detector array and had some strange results. For example, a person could easily measure a change in potential on the end of a 100 foot 20ga wire attached to only one terminal of a 12v battery. It worked the same for a concrete floor and we could use one wire of a battery or simply touch the floor with our hand and trigger the circuit over 30 feet away. It could detect people walking in the house, turning on a light, vehicles driving by or a gust of wind outside.
So the notion that everything has some effect on everything else seems to have some merit. I think what your talking about is definitely doable, it's just a matter of building a better emitter and detector system.
Regards
AC
Quote from: Hakasays on 2022.08.11, 18:15:48
...Depending on tuning and efficiency, the wire connecting the two coils then begins to behave more as a dielectric than as a conductor, which is why little or no conduction current shows up in it...
This is what is claimed everywhere in alternative circles. But I checked it and it is not the case. As already mentioned elsewhere, using a carbon wire much thinner than a hair, and in a quasi-stationary regime as here where the length of the wire remains small compared to the wavelength, the wire ignites with even a small current and everything happens according to conventional electromagnetism.
Quote from: Allcanadian on 2022.08.11, 18:50:34
I built a very sensitive series/cascading charge detector array and had some strange results. For example, a person could easily measure a change in potential on the end of a 100 foot 20ga wire attached to only one terminal of a 12v battery. It worked the same for a concrete floor and we could use one wire of a battery or simply touch the floor with our hand and trigger the circuit over 30 feet away. It could detect people walking in the house, turning on a light, vehicles driving by or a gust of wind outside.
Awesome project. ;D I did something similar a few years back that worked on similar principles. Very hard to balance the cascade though..
Quote
So the notion that everything has some effect on everything else seems to have some merit. I think what your talking about is definitely doable, it's just a matter of building a better emitter and detector system.
Also consider that at resonance, both coil-capacitors are 180deg in opposition, so when one coil is 'pushing' the other coil is 'pulling'.
Adrian refers to this as 'setting up the cavity'. Can be hard to get established but once you do then the two coils are effectively entangled. I hypothesized that they may be entangled extra-luminally, that modulating the fields of one may have an immediate effect on the other.
Without a proper thruline RF Bird meter it will be difficult to take precise measurements. I can use a lumen meter to measure bulb brightness but I think I'll also try rectifying the Rx primary output to DC and see how it affects activity.
Eric Dollard commented on the very first accidental telluric experiments he performed, before he'd even heard of Tesla.
He was messing with a single Tesla Extra coil (air-core high Q resonant quarter-wave coil), observing all its interesting properties, and got a call from a friend a town over telling him he was 'on the air' even though there was no antenna. That was when he realized the ground was acting as a transmission point. :)
Quote from: Hakasays on 2022.08.22, 14:44:51
That was when he realized the ground was acting as a transmission point. :)
To transmit, you need a current. A generator always has two terminals for the output, so you need to present it with a certain impedance so that it can supply current, i.e. connect it between something and something else.
When you don't, this impedance still exists because of the capacitance between the ground of the device and the earth.
If the antenna is dipolar, the RF current is sent between the two elements.
If it is a monopole, the current is sent between the ground or a ground plane, and the radiating element.
If the antenna is a magnetic loop, the current is sent between the two ends. One can even make loops using the ground on a part of the circuit.
It is the current that radiates, and even the ground can radiate if there is a current flowing through it, especially near the generator. This is not very efficient and if the signal is received not far away, it does not mean that you are transmitting across the ground, it means that the ground is a radiating part of the antenna system. It would really take great distances to affirm this, like through the earth.
Quote from: F6FLT on 2022.08.23, 13:14:02
It is the current that radiates, and even the ground can radiate if there is a current flowing through it, especially near the generator. This is not very efficient and if the signal is received not far away, it does not mean that you are transmitting across the ground, it means that the ground is a radiating part of the antenna system.
Based on what we've documented so far, I suspect there are two separate modes involved in telluric communication.
Conduction current, which creates a 'ripple' in Earth ground potential as you noted that is likely also reflected into skywave propagation. This might also be the 'Zenneck' wave but I haven't researched this wave enough to confirm if it fits or not.
Displacement current, which is more efficient but requires both the transmitter and receiver to be actively resonating. Also makes it far more difficult to establish over distance.
I suspect Eric's early accidental success was the first variety.
And even thought the Extra coil does not radiate itself, it may be participating indirectly as something like an EH antenna. That explains why our crude outdoor tests tend to succeed while indoor tests do not.
It might also be that the 160m band is simply too high frequency to achieve good propagation. We do know Tesla was working in the 50-80khz region for most of his telluric experiments, that may have been by necessity. C.C
@Hackasays
On the principles, you are right, but the devil is in the details.
Varying a potential cannot lead to a real effect if we do not have another reference potential and between the two appears the useful voltage. Varying the earth potential, but in relation to what?
Then the displacement current operates only at a very short distance, because it is between two conductors, the impedance to be crossed is that of the capacity of the capacitor that they constitute.
If they are too far from each other, not only does the current become infinitesimal, but the "third electrode", the earth, loops the current before it reaches the second electrode. My experiments with capacitive connections between a high wire and a plate with an amplifier did not exceed 50 meters, with a voltage of 1 KV and a frequency of 2 KHz (low frequency to avoid EM waves).
As for EH antennas, radio amateurs have generally abandoned them, they do not radiate better than the others. In the far field, E and H are always formed even if the antenna generates only E or only H, it is useless to try to generate them separately at the source. The main difference is only in the near field.
Zenneck waves are classical electromagnetic waves, solutions of Maxwell's equations, propagating on the surface of a conductive area. At the surface of the earth, and especially at the surface of sea water, the propagation is largely facilitated. It is necessary that the wavelengths are large compared to the "defects" of the surface, such as swell at sea or trees, buildings and hills on land. AM broadcasting and the maritime service in particular benefit from this, but it requires wavelengths at least hectometric (frequencies < 2.5 MHz).
The 160 m works for Zenneck waves on land and water. Frequencies 100 times lower (< 20 KHz) are used for links with submarines around the world, but even with the MW of military equipment, the signals remain weak: the antennas are not very efficient because their dimensions become too small and too close to the ground compared to the wavelengths (15 Km at 20 Khz).
But I think that what you are looking for are waves of another nature than Hertzian waves, like hypothetical longitudinal waves. There all hopes are allowed but for my part I could never put in evidence them.
perhaps longitudinal waves do exist: (see attached)
Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.08.23, 15:33:02
perhaps longitudinal waves do exist: (see attached)
Thanks for the file, Grumpy. It's very much in line with what I was talking about. I have read the text and will have to read it again.
I agree with many of the points but some of the others seem a bit dubious, like the link to gravitational waves. Moreover the level of the received signal has been measured but not calculated, so that the experiment cannot verify the theory except qualitatively.
I retain the idea of a spherical charge which expands and contracts as a means of generating this longitudinal wave by radial currents without a magnetic field. Seen from a distance, this charge does not change, so we should always see the same coulombic field. But a back and forth of energy is necessary for the movement, and it must be found somewhere, perhaps in this wave. There is an interesting lead.
You may recall Tesla's infamous "radiant energy" devices that collected a charge to do useful work. They had a plate and a ground connection.
These can be seen here:
https://teslaresearch.jimdofree.com/radiant-energy/
Notice that Tesla listed a couple of alternative sources of this energy, hence the device may serve as a detector.
I believe this is what Tesla's devices detected/collected.
Is the longitudinal scalar wave a mechanism to separate charge, even if it appears weak?
QuoteThen the displacement current operates only at a very short distance, because it is between two conductors, the impedance to be crossed is that of the capacity of the capacitor that they constitute.
If they are too far from each other, not only does the current become infinitesimal, but the "third electrode", the earth, loops the current before it reaches the second electrode.
The range and power transfer via displacement current increase proportional to frequency and voltage, and while there is propagation loss it is of a different nature than a conductor (partly because it is directly coupled).
It's the equal-opposite of conduction current, which becomes most efficient at DC and high current.
I think monopolar displacement currents would help explain the strong dielectric properties that Tesla Extra coils exhibit, as well as the unique induction they produce inside vacuum bulbs. Plasma formations tend to have a different 'character' compared to standard RF currents.
Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.08.23, 21:13:17
You may recall Tesla's infamous "radiant energy" devices that collected a charge to do useful work. They had a plate and a ground connection.
These can be seen here:
https://teslaresearch.jimdofree.com/radiant-energy/
The most intriguing and repeatable in the descriptions IMO is what appears to be monopolar (DC) capacitor charging. Eric Dollard experienced this with a spark-gap quenched Extra coil in the old 80's Borderlands videos. I should probably replicate that sometime as it's relatively straightforward and yet clearly anomalous.
I'm working with Eric Dollard personally this week, learning a ton in the process so I figure I'd share bits of what I'm picking up thus-far.
* Eric is extremely focused on having absolute minimum impedance to ground for telluric communication.
* His ground is a buried pair of old fuel tanks with 1 ohm measured impedance, and even that merely 'good enough'. The wires leading from tank to shop are probably enough to drop performance substantially. The entire coil and apparatus is eventually going to be sitting outside directly atop a set of electrodes attached symmetrically to the tank ground.
* Impedance matching transformer must also be wound to match well to the 1-2 ohm expected impedance (harder than it seems for ferrite apparently). We've been using 61 ferrite for it's low loss characteristics, but the low mutual inductance might be hurting more than it's helping in this case. We'll be doing a side-by-side with 43 ferrite to confirm if this is the difference.
* Ground current is preferably measured with an RF amp meter (thermocouple type). Anything else introduces too much impedance, and current sensors can give inaccurate results.
* Extra coil impedance should ideally also match the ground. An ideal Extra coil in this setup would probably be 1/4in copper tubing rather than wire to meet that 1 ohm requirement.
Once we're done, I intend on batching up everything together and creating a how-to guide + videos so others can more easily break into this field. (especially the other 2-3 on this team actively working on it :P)
Great to see you working with the Legend himself!
Tell Eric that Willie Johnson Jr. advanced his electrical theory considerably. Took it all the way to a complete unified field theory. In case he was not aware.
@Grumpy
Tesla, only his patents are of great interest. The physics he imagined had nothing to do with reality. He was an excellent engineer, but a bad physicist and was wrong to criticize the physics of his time. This is why he failed to transmit electricity at a distance. It can be done, but at a very small distance, and it can be explained conventionally.
Until we have a proven unified theory, physics is incomplete. We look up in the sky and see a big universe that we cannot explore, but only watch from afar. We look at the new images from the James Webb and this universe has more galaxies than we ever imagined.
Heaviside, et al, got rid of Maxwell's potentials, later experiments have shown them to be physically valid. Is there any science related to these potentials that has not been developed for the last century? Are we missing anything?
The US Congress recently implied that UFO's are not from Earth. Can we ever travel like they appear to?
In the attached paper, "Observation of scalar longitudinal electrodynamic waves", the authors (Monstein and Wesley) claim to transmit/receive with longitudinal waves. They are convincing, but I admittedly don't understand all of it. Lacking knowledge, I have to rely on the interpretations of others. This is enough to keep my attention, but further proof is desired. I wish they had used a much higher voltage signal! They mention a charge separation produced by a nuclear blast, but they do not state that a current could be driven in a conductor by a longitudinal wave, but still interesting.
Edit: F6 mentioned a refutation of the attached paper. I found the refuting paper and attached it as well.
Quote from: F6FLT on 2022.08.24, 14:12:47
Tesla, only his patents are of great interest. The physics he imagined had nothing to do with reality. He was an excellent engineer, but a bad physicist and was wrong to criticize the physics of his time.
This is why he failed to transmit electricity at a distance.
Quite a bold and ignorant claim.
I have no use for such nonsense.
Fabricobbled a bench today out of telephone pole scrap so we could get the Tesla Extra coil positioned directly atop the ground connection.
We're up to 2 amps of ground current meaning 13 ohms measured impedance, which should hopefully be enough to pick up at some distance away. Ground impedance here is excellent, with measured DC resistance at or below 1 ohm.
Currently coordinating to perform a 100mi test to a friend nearby tomorrow to see what we get🤞 Second station has a similar setup with a very intense ground.
Being outdoors, this test will be difficult to completely isolate from aerial signals, however in past experience the field produced by the Extra coil is almost entirely dielectric potential and never seems to radiate more than 1/2 of a mile (even at significant poewr levels).
If you want to try something that might be dangerous:
Put a air-core solenoid around your coil, put at least 24v to it, whatever amps you have, say 10 or so. North pointing up.
DO NOT TURN THIS COIL OFF WHILE YOUR COIL IS ON.
SLOWLY TURN IT DOWN TO OFF WITH A RHEOSTAT OR TURNS YOURS OFF FOR A BIT AND LET IT CHILL OUT.
Also, are your pulses unidirectional? If so, Tesla's may have floated above ground. I remember seeing that in an excellent reproduction once.
A double series gap will probably short your power supply, as it chokes the good stuff back behind the gaps. Tesla did this initially, if you recall. (I did this twice, flames once...)
Interesting idea Grumpy. 'Bouncing' the monopolar field off a larger static DC field? ???
Not quite set up for that this week but I can do it when I get back.
QuoteAlso, are your pulses unidirectional? If so, Tesla's may have floated above ground. I remember seeing that in an excellent reproduction once.
CW, normal continuous waves.
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2704.msg43654#msg43654
Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.08.25, 14:41:24
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2704.msg43654#msg43654
An electrostatic transducer should work quite well when powered with a monopolar Extra coil.
We're still slaying telluric demons at Eric Dollard's shop and may not get much this week. Lot of little things that add up.
* Transceiver is 100w but limits itself to 50w under battery power (so 50w is the peak here)
* Coil drive impedances are higher than expected (30-50 ohm, ideal is 10 or less)
* One of the coils has a breakout problem at 50w, so we're forced to drop power even further for that one.
* Receive station has a good ground but unknown impedance; may need better matching to receive.
Still waiting for final reception report but doesn't look great. Eric thinks we just need more power, like 1kw+ to start getting reliable results. Max ground currents measured with RF thermocouple ammeter is ~2.15 amps
Thankfully I have lots of experience gained from this little 'apprenticeship' to get my system up and running when I get home, and a very long write-up+how-to for others looking to get onboard :P
One thing we did manage to do though is a quick demo with a pair of coils concatenated to match an AM radio station 250 miles away. Worked like a champ with the ground despite no conventional antenna :P
Just got back from Eric Dollard's shop Saturday, spent a week helping him set up a telluric communication station there, and got my own "telluric apprenticeship" learning a lot in the process (especially regarding impedance matching and accurate telluric power measurements).
I plan on doing some formal write-ups and instructional pages/videos so others can replicate, but first acts are trying to replicate the exact setup here in the shop with what I've learned.
One thing Eric was insistent at every stage was minimizing impedance to ground. To the point that the final tests were performed outside, directly atop a pair of 10,000+ gallon tanks with a ground impedance of approx an ohm. And he was right. Just removing few feet of bulk copper strap was enough to cause significant improvements in the 160m amateur radio band.
Based on what I'm seeing between the two sites and a quick test by the ocean today, it seems that ground plane surface area is FAR more important than simple resistivity.
My ground rod bored to the water table has a DC resistance of only 2.2 ohms to electrical ground, but presents as a whopping 70 ohm impedance when tested at 1.8mc!
The exact same setup (same transmitter, matching transformers, frequency, and coil) at Dollard's shop showed a combined system impedance of 13 ohms.
From a theoretical perspective, this makes perfect sense if we view the station as one plate of a capacitor to the Earth. The surface area to the dielectric largely dictates its performance+efficiency. It also explains why Wardenclyffe had such an amazingly deep and intricate ground system.
I also did a few short videos from "Camp Dollard" :P, mostly for documentation purposes: O0
Part 1: https://www.bitchute.com/video/5yLTeokkMhGu/
Part 2: https://www.bitchute.com/video/bbGO367dwwf6/
Part 3 (debrief): https://www.bitchute.com/video/Wa1ncPrqn7Iw/
TL/DR we got some good AM radio reception @ 250 miles with Tesla Coils & ground, no conventional antenna, but 50 watts @ 12.5 ohms wasn't enough to punch the 100+ miles to the other site. Possibly @ 1kw but unfortunately we just weren't set up for it. We also need to check the Rx site to see how well the ground impedance is matched there @ 1.86mc.
Quote from: F6FLT on 2022.08.30, 18:20:16
In the following video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIiPWthwBYE&t=6s
what makes them say that this is a "Successful Telluric Earth Transmission"?
Aaron isn't really an engineer so his video descriptions don't always accurately reflect the details of the experiments. C.C
That experiment was a rough test documenting some manner of exotic electrostatic reflection / telluric transmission through a remnant gas-lighting system running through the town to a well-equipped car tuned to the 160m band.
What was interesting about that test was that the response via overland radio more-or-less followed the gas lighting network. The exact details are fuzzy but IIRC it was under 1/2 mile in one direction (where the lighting system ended) and many miles in the other direction.
The interior of the shop is entirely metal so it makes a fairly effective faraday cage (technically electrostatic screen). Also remember that a Faraday cage can also become a radiator in the right conditions. ^-^
I was there during that test BTW. It was damn cold out there! ;D
The "Steves" in the video did their own tests some time later that were more interesting IMO.
* First station was indoors, very intense ground but no external antenna. Just a 160m Extra coil wound on a big polyethylene barrel.
* Second station was outdoors, with no antenna. One short lead going to a deep wellshaft ground and the other going to a ground rod spliced into a deep tree root network.
They made contact on 160m band several times about 150 miles away under 80 watts over a few months. Fairly poorly built and documented but the results were interesting enough to mention. They also reported issues with different modes; apparently sideband and AM were impossible, that contact could only be made on CW.
(Answering in this thread to try and stay on-topic)
Quote from: F6FLT on 2022.08.30, 19:45:28
My question was specifically about the facts of the Transatlantic Telluric Communication Experiment, including who, where, and what time of day...
Tesla (of course), 1900's on 50-80kc.Intercontinental, as the measured 1/4 wave frequency corresponds to the Earth's circumference in longitudinal mode.
Ernst Alexanderson, 1910's-30's on multiple bands.Patents specify system impedance below 10 ohms which all but necessitates a telluric component, and patents directly suggest it.
Eric Dollard, 1980's and 90's on the 40,80,160m bands.350+ miles QSL at 599+, likely more.
Dr Adrian Marsh, 2019-2022 on 160m band.Tests performed at multiple distances up to 110 miles.
Bruce Gavin (2019? to present?)Unknown details (have not been in contact), but his ground is impeccable, and coil construction immaculate, which suggests high-level understanding of operation and likely some decent antennaless QSL's.
Steve Mcgreevey, spring+summer 2022 on 160m150 miles+ between Steve Young.
Griffin Brock + Hakasays (Summer 2022) on 40-80m band.Spotty reception at 130 miles with 60-100 watts. Tx was a matched Tesla Coil into a pair of buried steel barrels, Rx was a ground strap tossed into the ocean. Skywave and ground-reflection could not be completely ruled-out.
Also, since every grounded AM radio station is producing longitudinal telluric waves in addition to transverse AM transmissions, with the appropriate electrostatic shielding this technique might be used to detect and quantify the transverse+telluric components.
Quote from: F6FLT on 2022.08.31, 10:32:33
Nothing about these experiences makes them any different from an ordinary radio transmission. Identical connections are made every day by radio amateurs around the earth.
F6, did you actually research into any of the names or experiments I listed, or are you still arguing from a position of ignorance?
You already admitted you knew
nothing of Tesla's work at Colorado Springs; I suspect you didn't lift a finger here either. C.C
Quote from: F6FLT
When I see a large tesla coil, I see a vertical spiral conductor with a large variable current flowing through it due to resonance, so I see a conventional tuned antenna, radiating a conventional vertically polarised electromagnetic wave.
I've asked you experiment by building a rudimentary LMD network analogue to get an understanding on the different properties and velocities involved in transverse vs longitudinal transmission lines as Eric Dollard did in the 80's. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNFpJVpm9Cs
If you've ever used a Vector Network Analyzer on a Tesla Coil, you would see that every coil wound as Tesla did displays Transverse resonance as well as Longitudinal resonance.
Dr Adrian Marsh at AMInnovations spent years studying and explaining this, and is one of the names listed above that you likely ignored: https://www.am-innovations.com/category/equipment/equipment-network-analyser/
F6FLT, if you're serious about this, build a simple Transverse and a Longitudinal network and tell me the resonant frequency ratio between them. Use the same number and value components for the whole network. (see reference below)Until you understand the different properties of transverse and longitudinal networks you will never understand the principles involved in telluric communication. If you're poor you can use an online circuit simulator and it
should give you similar results (use a low impedance drive for transverse network, high-impedance drive for the longitudinal network).
Hint: it is a geometric ratio, and it will approximate the same ratio regardless of what component values you choose for L and C. ;)
Back to topic. 8)
Ground Resistance vs Impedance Experiments.
The main issue recently has been achieving a low-impedance ground, so that the 'standing wave' cavity is formed between the top of the Tesla transformer and Earth, rather than being formed between the top and bottom of the Tesla transformer.
When an impedance-matching transformer is used to drive an Extra coil, the system impedance of the setup has three components:
* Drive impedance of the Tesla Extra coil.
* Impedance of the matching transformer.
* Impedance of the ground.
All of these three factors are related to each-other, and it seems that one poor-quality component will hurt performance on the others.
For example, if the ground has a very low impedance (2 ohm) but the coil has a high drive impedance (50 ohm), the coil will drag the system impedance up to some number between the two (perhaps 25 ohms).
Experimental setup
Transceiver: Icom 100w HF transceiver
Frequency: 160m band, approx 1.86mc for all.
Coil: 160m extra coil with adjustable mast. Measured drive impedance with VNA ~35 ohms @ 1.86mc. ~9.5in height + diameter, ~150ft #20 awg wire, Magnification factor ~100.
Primary matching network: MFJ-969 Antenna tuner.
Matching transformer: varies; best match recorded for each setup.
Ground current measurement: 0-5 amp RF Ammeter (thermocouple type).
Test #1: EPD Labs Indoors.
10ft ground lead attached to two 10,000+ gallon underground tanks. Measured DC resistance less than 1 ohm to electrical ground.
Result: Peak ground current 1.8 amperes @ 50 watts input.
50w / 1.8a = 27.7 volts
27.7v / 1.8a = 15.43 ohms total system impedance.
Test #2: EPD Labs Outdoors.
Coil directly atop 10,000gal underground tank, 3ft of multiple low-inductance leads to the system.
Result: ground current 2.1 amperes @ 50 watts input.
50w / 2.1a = 23.8 volts
23.8v / 2.1a = 11.33 ohms total system impedance.
Test #3: Hakasays Shop Indoors good ground.
Coil directly atop a 28ft 1" diamete galvanized steel pipe, 14ft beneath water table. Measured DC resistance 2.2 ohms to nearby electrical ground.
Result: ground current 1.3 amperes @ 100 watts input.
100w / 1.3a = 77 volts
77v / 1.3a = 59.17 ohms total system impedance.
Test #4: Hakasays Shop Indoors poor ground.
Coil attached via 6ft of 1in copper strap to 8ft copper ground rod, 7.5ft driven into dense clay soil. Measured DC resistance ~50 ohms to nearby electrical ground.
Result: ground current 1.25 amperes @ 100 watts input.
100w / 1.25a = 80 volts
80v / 1.25a = 64 ohms total system impedance.
Test #5: Hakasays Outdoor ocean strap ground.
25ft ground strap tossed directly into the ocean.
Result: ground current 1.2a @ 50 watts input.
50w / 1.2a = 41.7 volts
41.7v / 1.2a = 34.72 ohms total system impedance.
Test #6: Hakasays Outdoor ocean plate ground.
25ft ground strap tossed directly into ocean, also attached to aluminum sheet, approx 2sqft submerged.
Result: ground current 1.26 amperes @ 50 watts input.
50w / 1.26a = 39.7 volts
39.7v / 1.26a = 31.49 ohms total system impedance.
Tentative conclusions: Ground electrode surface area appears to play a massive role in achieving a low-impedance ground, at least at these frequencies.
This is most evident by the near-identical results received with the ~2 ohm pipe ground and the ~50 ohm pipe ground.
(Note: photos reflect the setup conditions and not necessarily the exact coil under test. All tests were performed with the same Tesla Extra coil)
Quote from: F6FLT on 2022.09.01, 07:58:53
@Hackasays
You are precise in the descriptions, but I do not see any clear logic to rule out the very likely generation of EM waves and the fact that they are the only ones received.
Transverse and longitudinal networks exist in
any bulk transmission media. That's one of the points I am trying to emphasize.
Drop a bowling ball into a calm lake and you will generate two waves. One will be on a transverse wave that travels along the surface and ripples outward. The other will be a longitudinal wave that is undetectable on the surface. Both waves will have very different properties.
As you can see, we're still narrowing-down the transmission and loss tangent characteristics of telluric longitudinal waves through the Earth. Most of our work has been with continuous waves in the 1.9mc region which will likely have different cavity properties to impulse waves generated by Tesla in the sub-100kc region.
Quote from: F6FLT
You ask me to use a VNA, but a VNA says nothing about the transverse or longitudinal character of a line.
I asked you to build a transverse and parallel transmission line, either in real life or in a circuit simulator, because it more elegantly highlights the two distinct transmission modes across space. I still await your results.
I understand that not everyone can afford the ~$500 vector network analyzer offered by sdr-kits.net and that it takes a lot of tinkering to learn how to 'read the tea leaves' to understand the data it generates. ??? It took me months and I've only scratched the surface.
VNA's are great though because it makes it SO much easier to tune complex arrangements like 3-coil Tesla Magnifying Transformers and. ;D
Adrian is the expert in the VNA front, and I've received much assistance and insight from his work: https://www.am-innovations.com/high-efficiency-transference-of-electric-power/
**Removed F6 comments that bordered on trolling**
Ahhh I realize that we have met before Hakasays, I now remember you said you were on this forum although I thought under a different name..wouldn't be the first time I've gotten my wires crossed though. We met at the energy conference year before last. I was working in Canada at the time and we both spent some time working on the Colorado Springs setup there with Eric and Adrian.
Really enjoying your experiments here. I might be wrong but in order to satiate the trolls and transmit power I think the setup needs to be significantly bigger.
Quote from: polyrhythm on 2022.09.02, 04:22:54
Ahhh I realize that we have met before Hakasays, I was working in Canada at the time and we both spent some time working on the Colorado Springs setup there with Eric and Adrian.
I think I know you, Poly :) You were one of the few with us working 'behind-the-scenes' with the Colorado Springs TMT's while the rest were out listening to conference lectures >:-) https://www.am-innovations.com/estc-2019-teslas-colorado-springs-experiment/
COVID finally let up enough that Adrian was able to come back to the 2022 conference to present; I finally got my well-needed crash course in handling the Vector Network Analyzer.
He's made some great progress these last few years, had some excellent discussions, and his preliminary results is somewhat where this transatlantic communication project spawned from.
One thing I've been trying to find lately is the bulk electrical properties of freshwater/saltwater, as knowing the inductance,capacitance,resistance,conductance at 50kc-2mc should allow us to directly model and predict the propagation characteristics in both modes. Might just end up using the VNA and do the measurements myself :P
Adrian's been working with 3-coil systems, he is more focused on maximizing the cavity efficiency (his background is microwave so he tends to use that manner of language): https://www.am-innovations.com/cylindrical-3coil-input-impedance-teslas-extra-coil/
Quote from: Hakasays on 2022.09.02, 23:06:48
I think I know you, Poly :) You were one of the few with us working 'behind-the-scenes' with the Colorado Springs TMT's while the rest were out listening to conference lectures >:-) https://www.am-innovations.com/estc-2019-teslas-colorado-springs-experiment/
COVID finally let up enough that Adrian was able to come back to the 2022 conference to present; I finally got my well-needed crash course in handling the Vector Network Analyzer.
He's made some great progress these last few years, had some excellent discussions, and his preliminary results is somewhat where this transatlantic communication project spawned from.
One thing I've been trying to find lately is the bulk electrical properties of freshwater/saltwater, as knowing the inductance,capacitance,resistance,conductance at 50kc-2mc should allow us to directly model and predict the propagation characteristics in both modes. Might just end up using the VNA and do the measurements myself :P
Adrian's been working with 3-coil systems, he is more focused on maximizing the cavity efficiency (his background is microwave so he tends to use that manner of language): https://www.am-innovations.com/cylindrical-3coil-input-impedance-teslas-extra-coil/
Yep that's me. I went to that conference for one reason to meet Eric and do some work with him after quite a number of years corresponding online.
I remember being blown away but how easy the VNA made analysis, lucky that you got some more time with Adrian to learn from.
I am trying to remember an old book I read a while ago that might help with your question re impedance characteristics of fresh/sea water. I'll get back to you if I can locate it.
Thanks for posting Adrian's latest update, we stayed in touch for a little while after the conference but I have been in another world so to speak since getting back to Australia.
Quote from: F6FLT on 2022.09.02, 15:07:15
Why "bigger" ?
Do you have a calculation of the link budget in longitudinal waves, with the power to be emitted and their expected level in reception?
F6FLT, you clearly are an experienced radio operator. So I ask you, indeed, why bigger? What affect does size have on our waveforms? How does this waveform.interact with the medium? What is it exactly that is trying to be achieved here? A more fruitful discussion could occur here if there was more open mindedness to the concepts rather than dismissal without basic groundwork of experimentation and subsequent discussion.
Please use side-threads for off-topic rants.
An article related to resistance v impedance results encountered last week: https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4320.msg100445#msg100445
Ground Resistance or Impedance?: https://www.nemasurge.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/grounding.pdf
Quote
The capacitance of the ground system dominates during the steep rising front of the impulse by providing a path to ground for these high frequency components. To assist this process, the capacitance of the ground system should be maximized. In practice this means that the surface area of contact made with the ground, must be as large as possible. The use of flat conductors instead of round, buried metal plates, meshes and ground enhancing materials (which effectively increase the surface contact of driven rods) are all ways of increasing the capacitance of the ground system's coupling to true earth.
QuoteThe inductance of the ground system dominates during the rapid change of current with time as the current is injected into the earth. The voltage developed due to the inductive term is given by L di/dt. This may become dangerously large, creating the risk of a flash over, if attention is not paid to ensuring that inductance is minimized in the system. Sharp bends in down conductors and bonding connections should be avoided and the use of flat conductors, instead of radial ones, encouraged.
QuoteFinally, the resistance of the contact to the earth medium is particularly important during the decaying "tail" of the surge as this is where the large energy content (Joules) of the impulse resides. A low resistance contact ensures the safe dissipation of this excess energy into the ground. In practice this can be achieved by using longer driven rods, multiple rods, or by encasing the rods with conductive ground enhancing materials.
QuoteIn summary - an effective ground system should exhibit a low impedance, rather than simply a low resistance, thereby ensuring it maximizes the dissipation of both the high and low frequency components characteristic of surges and fault transients.
In essence, not only must inductance+resistance be minimized, but capacitance must also be maximized in order to maximize longitudinal transient coupling to ground.
This lesson was well-learned in previous week's experiments, as the 2.2 ohm ground resistance exhibited a whopping 60 ohms impedance at only 1.8 megacycles! :o
Of course this probably means I need to bury a few steel barrels or sheets of stainless steel sheet to improve dielectric coupling and by extension resulting performance. C.C
Quote from: F6FLT on 2022.09.04, 10:18:15
"Why bigger", I asked you this question. Only you suggest a bigger size, not me.
Everyone understands that the bigger the setup, the bigger the power of the emitted wave. I hope it is not by this trivial truism that you think you can justify that it should be bigger. And the size has nothing to do with the waveform you are talking about now, especially with Tesla coils, therefore resonant, therefore with a very narrow spectrum around the resonant frequency.
How much bigger? 1000 times? 10 times? What makes you think that the actual size would not be sufficient? And by how much?
When I make a radio link on 144 MHz, I know the power I need in relation to the antenna and the distance.
Without past link experience, and without a link budget, saying that we should take a bigger setup has no justification, and that's probably why we don't see you answer. You obviously don't know any technical reason about the size of the setup needed for the link.
A "more fruitful discussion" will be achieved not by accusing others of mindedness, but by respecting the other person. The principle is to give technical reasons for your proposals, not to say anything and refuse to justify yourself afterwards, and when you have done so, to admit that you spoke lightly, the mistake is human.
Sure I'll be open with you as to my reasoning. I mean no disrespect. Hakasays is presenting us with his research and experimental results, dismissing it out of hand assuming he knows nothing of what he's doing is not exactly disrespectful in my eyes.
Why bigger? What are we trying to achieve? If we are talking actual power transmission then what we are trying to achieve is a state of resonance within the Earth itself. Why bigger? What does bigger do to our waveform? It changes the frequency. What sort of frequencies was Tesla using in Colorado Springs?
Quote from: F6FLT on 2022.09.04, 08:37:20
If you don't know where your longitudinal wave will pass, answering this question for all cases will give a huge range of orders of magnitude depending on the location, the depth, even often unknown especially when the path is deep in the ground, and the answer will be of no use.
https://www.falstad.com/circuit/
Select 'File: Open File' and open the attached .txt
Simulation attached to help explain why varying conditions may not be as critical as you think. Capacitance can differ fairly broadly along a longitudinal transmission line and still not affect performance.
In attached sim, the dielectric loss tangent (conductance) would the primary loss factor.
A key question at the moment is whether Nikola Tesla was operating in the 50-100kc region because of these loss factors or due to technological limitations. Determining the loss tangents at MF/HF frequencies should answer that question.
Quote from: F6FLT on 2022.09.04, 09:32:33
Telluric currents are not just on the surface of the earth.
Where is the longitudinal wave supposed to go?
F6, I'm glad you're actually asking technical questions now :D
It really depends what dictates the boundaries of the transmission line.
In 'normal' radio, the cavity would exist between the impedance boundaries of the Earth's crust and ionosphere.
Tellurically, it would appear to exist between the crust and upper-mantle (the same cavity that conducts surface seismic waves).
But since we need large electrostatic field gradients to create these impulses, we are also liable to create transverse waves in the air as a side-product, with the Tesla transformer acting as an EH antenna. So that would have to be quantified and/or mitigated.
It's also entirely possible that the surface-ionosphere cavity and the crust-mantle cavity are
both required for operation, as historical experiments did not have the capacity to isolate the two.
It's even possible that parametric boundary conditions like Zenneck waves are even at-play. It's difficult to say at this point.
That's why I think it will be highly advantageous to analyze telluric samples with the VNA so we can start forming transmission line models, to be able to accurately predict+measure our experiments as we perform them (and give the math geeks something to play with :P).
Quote from: F6FLT on 2022.09.04, 15:13:25
And for a longitudinal wave, to know the frequency, we must know its speed of propagation in the earth.
What is it ?
Per Nikola Tesla, US Patent 787412: https://patents.google.com/patent/US787412A/en
QuoteThe most essential requirement is, however, that irrespective of frequency the wave or wave-train should continue for acertain interval of time, which I have estimated to be not less than one-twelfth or probably 0.08484 of a second and which is taken in passing to and returning from the region diametrically opposite the pole over the earths surface with a mean velocity of about four hundred and seventy-one thousand two hundred and forty kilometers per second.
Note that the ratio is approx. PI/2 times faster than the expected transverse velocity.
Also note the measurement is not a complete fluke, as it is in-agreement with Eric Dollard's model and measurements here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNFpJVpm9Cs
as well as Charles Wheatstone's measurements of 288,000 miles per second.
That was Wheatstone's 3-sparks experiment:
https://books.google.com/books?id=xMMRAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA11&lpg=PA11&dq=288000+miles+per+second&source=bl&ots=wMRQ4QoQ8y&sig=ACfU3U3QVHnqX-_kgVLNxbqVtK72x0kzdQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiWgMjty_v5AhVELUQIHZL1Cjg4ChDoAXoECAUQAw#v=onepage&q=288000%20miles%20per%20second&f=false
He discharged a Leyden jar through 4 miles of wire and they reported this as the speed of electricity.
There was another experiment that indicated electricity traveled from each end of a wire, using two spark gaps. If this is so, then Wheatstone's results may be questionable. I forget who made this other experiment.
Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.09.04, 17:03:40
That was Wheatstone's 3-sparks experiment:
https://books.google.com/books?id=xMMRAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA11&lpg=PA11&dq=288000+miles+per+second&source=bl&ots=wMRQ4QoQ8y&sig=ACfU3U3QVHnqX-_kgVLNxbqVtK72x0kzdQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiWgMjty_v5AhVELUQIHZL1Cjg4ChDoAXoECAUQAw#v=onepage&q=288000%20miles%20per%20second&f=false
Thanks Grumpy. It's been a while so I didn't have the links handy.
I did just find a more streamlined copy of the same setup here: http://www.tuks.nl/wiki/index.php/Main/WheatstoneExperimentsToMeasureTheVelocityOfElectricity
I don't consider Wheatstone's to be definitive, I just mention because it's within close margin to the other experiments. ;)
My understanding of pi/2 x c is that it is a relative velocity. You'll notice in the patent Hakasays links to Tesla is talking about being diametrically opposed to the transmitter. The path the "LMD" wave takes is through the Earth as opposed to around it. Pi is defined as the circumference to diameter of a circle so if we are on the diametrically opposite side of the Earth the effective distance is a factor of pi/2 the distance travelled by the TEM waves around the Earth.
This pi/2 turns up in the extra coil when the height to diameter ratio is roughly equal. In this case our LMD wave travels between the conductors. So we have a TEM wave which is propagated with an effective velocity of roughly c but out LMD takes a short cut in a solenoid. Different height to diameter ratios give different propagation velocities.
The whole point of me saying this is for you F6, c isnt being broken even though it appears this way. This is what Dollard's velocity factor is all about. It takes some time to comb through all his work. I've been doing it for more than a decade on and off. I get the feeling you aren't that familiar with his work and would benefit from understanding his perspective because it's the perspective that is being shared in this thread.
https://www.gestaltreality.com/energy-synthesis/eric-dollard/ is a good place to see a lot of it.
Quote from: F6FLT on 2022.09.05, 07:13:16
(regarding "Tesla's patent quote : ... over the earth's surface with a mean velocity of about 471,240km/s")
Proof ?
Proof is for mathematics, evidence is for science.
1: Much of Tesla's Colorado Springs notes showed Tesla focused on gathering numeric experimental data. The number of significant digits in his value suggests either a derived or measured velocity, and based on earlier work it's not a huge stretch to hypothesize that value was a measured one.
2: The value is not an arbitrary value, but of a specific geometric ratio.
3: It approximates the same ratio encountered when building transverse+longitudinal network analogues which have been replicated by others. (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4344.msg100515;topicseen#msg100515)
Quote
Not science, but at the level of the tinkerer in his garage. Where is the theory (logical text and circumstantiated statements with the appropriate equations), or where are the measurements of a longitudinal wave signal across the earth?
"Mathematics is an experimental science, and definitions do not come first, but later on." — Oliver Heaviside :P
In my upcoming experiments, I will be leveraging the time synchronization service provided by the GPS satellite network in order to establish a clear time-of-flight between transmitting and receiving stations.
I performed some preliminary experiments with a pair of isolated GPS-disciplined oscillators that resulted in single-pulse precision within 150nS, and long-term (30min) statistical precision within 20-30nS. 1ns = approximately 1 light-foot.
More than adequate to get several decimals worth of precision in a 2-5 mile test. ;D
Quote from: F6FLT on 2022.09.05, 15:16:31
To come back to the subject, this is why Dollard's or Tesla's longitudinal wave theories, not formalized by mathematics, are not physical theories, and consequently no technology has emerged from them.
The mathematics and relations are already present, which is why we can approach the same solution using a circuit simulator.
Quote from: F6FLT
The speed of pi/2 x c is contrary to relativity. So relativity is not valid anymore.
Could you explain exactly why you believe this to be the case?
Special relativity (which I assume is the relativity you're referring to) is simply an expression of the ratio of energy to mass. E = MC^2.
Quote from: Hakasays on 2022.09.05, 15:53:02
...
Special relativity (which I assume is the relativity you're referring to) is simply an expression of the ratio of energy to mass. E = MC^2.
Is this a joke?
See attached file.
Does an electromagnetic wave have mass? If so, what proportion of that wave lies in the electrostatic component and how much lies in the magnetic field component?
(IE: what is the mass of a coulomb and weber?)
The goal at any rate is to explain why energy appear to propagate more quickly in the electrostatic field than is does through the magnetic: https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4344.msg100543;topicseen#msg100543
I have my own thoughts on the matter relating to Coulomb force being a mathematically extraluminal function (contains no factors relating to velocity). I'm sure there are other factors as well.
Measuring propagation speed of Coulomb fieldshttps://link.springer.com/article/10.1140/epjc/s10052-015-3355-3
QuoteThe problem of gravity propagation has been subject of discussion for quite a long time: Newton, Laplace and, in relatively more modern times, Eddington pointed out that, if gravity propagated with finite velocity, planet motion around the sun would become unstable due to a torque originating from time lag of the gravitational interactions. Such an odd behavior can be found also in electromagnetism, when one computes the propagation of the electric fields generated by a set of uniformly moving charges. As a matter of fact the Liénard–Weichert retarded potential leads to the same formula as the one obtained assuming that the electric field propagate with infinite velocity.
QuoteIn Space, Time and Gravitation Eddington discusses [1] the problem of gravity propagation. He remarks that if gravity propagated with finite velocity the motion of the planets around the Sun would become unstable, due to a torque acting on the planets. The problem was already known to Newton and was examined by Laplace [2], who calculated a lower limit for the gravity propagation velocity, finding a value much larger than the speed of light.
Hakasays
QuoteThe problem of gravity propagation has been subject of discussion for quite a long time: Newton, Laplace and, in relatively more modern times, Eddington pointed out that, if gravity propagated with finite velocity, planet motion around the sun would become unstable due to a torque originating from time lag of the gravitational interactions.
It is problematic when most confuse something with a condition of something.
For example, imagine were underwater in a pool floating upside down with our feet at the surface of the water and our head pointing down towards the bottom. Then someone at the bottom of the pool releases a cork and an air bubble. We see the cork and bubble as supposedly falling, moving from above our head towards a surface at our feet just like gravity.
We could then ask what is the velocity or propagation of the force which seemed to "attract" all these objects to the surface at our feet?. Well, nothing propagated nor was anything attracted to anything else, our mind created this illusion. Which explains why nobody could ever explain gravity because they were looking for some thing which doesn't exist. Conceptually gravity is very similar buoyancy only the conditions, forces and the medium have changed.
Now let's get creative, suppose every object or planet was like the surface or air/water interface of our pool only it's spherical. Likewise every distant space devoid of matter like the depth of our pool. We could imagine the movement of any objects due to buoyancy would look almost identical to gravity. Yet there is no force of attraction to other objects present because the force is not coming from the objects themselves but the space there immersed in. That's the kicker isn't it?.
Strange as it may seem I was reading Einsteins work when I figured out what the Primary Fields are and how they work. I had to take a break because the concepts are difficult to wrap our mind around so I made a coffee and went outside to watch the stars. This was when it occurred to me Einstein, as he later admitted, didn't understand what the primary fields are. So he used analogies supposing that space and time could be variable instead of some unknowns he had no knowledge of. In fact, it works and Einsteins analogies describe what should happen in most instances but lacks the details to describe what happens in reality.
Regards
AC
Quote from: Hakasays on 2022.09.05, 18:32:23
Does an electromagnetic wave have mass? If so, what proportion of that wave lies in the electrostatic component and how much lies in the magnetic field component?
...
What moves at speed c cannot have mass, again, see Einstein.
A photon having an energy h*ν where ν is the frequency, one can always write mc²=h*ν and deduce from it a rest mass m, but that brings strictly nothing.
On the other hand the field is subject to the curvature of space-time, and the energy that can be drawn from it, too, so an EM wave is deflected by a planet or a star.
The energy is equally distributed in both fields, they are coupled, which is why radio antennas can have equivalent performance, whether they use the electric or magnetic field, although in general the electric field will be used, for ease of realization.
Quote from: F6FLT on 2022.09.07, 13:08:03
What moves at speed c cannot have mass, again, see Einstein.
A photon having an energy h*ν where ν is the frequency, one can always write mc²=h*ν and deduce from it a rest mass m, but that brings strictly nothing.
If M = 0 in the case of a resonating circuit or traveling wave, then that energy is not a real mass in this case but a mathematical/virtual mass. In that case the 'speed limit' of E=MC^2 doesn't exactly apply.
There is some theoretical and experimental evidence supporting the possibility in academia, whether it is true or not remains-to-be-seen. https://www.science.org/content/article/neutrinos-travel-faster-light-according-one-experiment
E=HV and mc²=h*ν are actually personal favorites of mine due to their higher-order ramifications relating to parametrics and symmetry. ;D ;D
* Observed redshift/blueshift represents a
real gain/loss of energy from a given reference frame.
* An increase/decrease in frequency of a photon or LC circuit represents real gain/loss of energy (again, viewed from a given reference frame).
* Energy can massed or mass-less (energy stored inside a capacitor or compressed spring, vs energy traveling in a microwave transmission). Alternatively, you could say that mass can be real or virtual.
But this is a deeper-order topic though that really needs its own thread. :P
Propagation Speed of Longitudinally Oscillating Gravitational and Electrical Fields
William D. Walker and J. Dual
Oh well. Better to release a paper and have it fixed than hide something anomalous because it's not well-explained. O0
Quote from: F6FLT on 2022.09.07, 17:02:25
Nothing has gone beyond c yet.
Correct. Waves are not things. :P
Small update:
* I've been pondering the most bang-for-the-buck in terms of maximizing ground contact-area and think I have a decent solution. Gonna try renting a long trenching tool and using that to drop a nice fat sheet of copper or stainless steel at least 16in into the ground. It's not as good as burying a steel tank, but it's a lot less earth to move.
* For short (1-3mi) and mid (100-200mi) reception, I'm setting up a shielded Tesla Coil to a Raspberry-Pi-based SDR receiver. That way our group has 24/7 access to test reception. :) It will be tuned to 160m amateur radio band, partly due to the legal spectrum allocation and transmission power limits in this band, and partly because the wire length makes it more reasonable for others to wind coils in this region.
* Sadly the day-job has been picking up this month. I hope to at least have the SDR up and running before I have to head back on the road.
I want to get some VNA ground data gathered as well so I can try to extrapolate the LC parameters and of water/soil into a transmission line model while away from the shop.
Always welcome to useful ideas/suggestions to help guide construction. ;)
Finally found a good mounting box to finish assembling the SDR receiver today. :) I'll be away on work for a while so will be leaving it configured for 24/7 reception on the 160m band. One of my colleagues may try to ping off it in the interim :)
I left some room internally so I can add a battery backup power supply at some point, and/or a datalogging drive for remote work.
Quote from: Hakasays on 2022.09.07, 17:31:03
...
Correct. Waves are not things. :P
Prove it!
Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.09.07, 16:28:16
Propagation Speed of Longitudinally Oscillating Gravitational and Electrical Fields
William D. Walker and J. Dual
Basically, it's my idea of a charged balloon that you vibrate. I haven't abandoned it but I'm thinking of a more efficient device than the sphere (piezzo?).
The idea that the wave would propagate at more than c has no basis. The coulombic field of a charge at constant speed moves simultaneously with the charge, but when there is acceleration, this is no longer the case, the coulombic field is only "updated" with a delay t=d/c. This is the classic problem of retarded potentials. They are transmitted at the speed c, as are gravitational waves. This is what is predicted by general relativity, and it is what was measured by the comparison between gravity waves and gamma rays detected simultaneously in 2017, during cosmic events generating both at the same time (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GW170817).
QuoteThe idea that the wave would propagate at more than c has no basis.
The basis (operating principle) would be that transverse and longitudinal waves propagate at different velocities: https://sciencing.com/transverse-vs-longitudinal-waves-whats-the-difference-w-examples-13721565.html
Anomalous apparent velocities are covered in the transverse-vs-longitudinal thread, including an experimental simulation and observation protocol: https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4344.0
Multiple recent amateur experiments measuring velocity of propagation also tend to record anomalous early results that may correspond to this as well (thanks Grumpy!): https://youtu.be/oI_X2cMHNe0?t=1219
Please move off-topic commentary to another thread.
Quote from: Hakasays on 2022.09.13, 14:40:00
The basis (operating principle) would be that transverse and longitudinal waves propagate at different velocities: https://sciencing.com/transverse-vs-longitudinal-waves-whats-the-difference-w-examples-13721565.html
Anomalous apparent velocities are covered in the transverse-vs-longitudinal thread, including an experimental simulation and observation protocol: https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4344.0
Multiple recent amateur experiments measuring velocity of propagation also tend to record anomalous early results that may correspond to this as well (thanks Grumpy!): https://youtu.be/oI_X2cMHNe0?t=1219
...
The first link deals with generalities about transverse or longitudinal waves, nothing new.
I don't see how the second link would be experimental evidence of exceeding the c speed.
As for the video, it doesn't claim to exceed c either, but explains what every body here should already know: the electrical signal is mainly in the wave that travels at almost c along the line, the energy is mainly in the field, especially in the magnetic field that accompanies any current forming the same reality. No scientist disputes this. The wave goes much faster than the electrons. This video would rather challenge the longitudinal wave, since the magnetic field is transverse to the current.
Quote from: F6FLT on 2022.09.13, 20:04:01
I don't see how the second link would be experimental evidence of exceeding the c speed.
How familiar are you with using circuit analogues to represent(simulate) transmission lines?
Essentially what we're doing on the bench is using equivalent components to simulate much larger systems.
As long as the inductance and capacitance (and resistance and conductance) are equivalent, the simulated line will behave the same as the actual 10+ mile transmission line in real life.
As for the video, the focus is not on the primary wave that travels at approximately C and peaks at 20v on the scope, but the 5v peak that occurs some significant time before this (highlighted in the screenshot).
Other replicators who have done the same experiment on Youtube have reported similar results, and I can post them as well if you're interested.
QuoteThe idea that the wave would propagate at more than c has no basis.
But since 'Spooky action at a distance' is proven and has been seen then anywhere close to c or above is usable.
This is not radio.
Quote from: giantkiller on 2022.09.15, 03:53:22
But since 'Spooky action at a distance' is proven and has been seen then anywhere close to c or above is usable.
"above c is usable". It is false, and well known that it is false:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-communication_theorem
Quote from: F6FLT on 2022.09.15, 10:34:48
"above c is usable". It is false, and well known that it is false:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-communication_theorem
Until we have a clear picture of exactly *how* entanglement works on a fundamental level, it seems premature to make assumptions about what is and isn't possible with it.
If light is a electromagnetic wave, and Bell's theorem proves light has an extraluminal component, then is perhaps the electrostatic field is behaving extraluminally? Or the magnetic? Or is there a third undiscovered field/force that propagates extraluminally$
It is quite the conundrum.
Quote from: Hakasays on 2022.09.15, 12:59:59
Until we have a clear picture of exactly *how* entanglement works on a fundamental level, it seems premature to make assumptions about what is and isn't possible with it.
...
The no-communication theorem comes from the quantum theory, and the quantum theory predicts well the observation results.
It is not a question of the unknown, but of a perfectly formalized context, quantum mechanics. For it is indeed quantum mechanics to which Einstein's quote "Spooky action at a distance", by Giantkiller, referred.
The no-communication theorem is a logical consequence of the formalism, therefore if "c" was exceeded for communication, the theory of quantum mechanics would have to be abandoned, and relativity too, and alternative theories would be needed to explain what otherwise QM and relativity explained perfectly.
It reminds me of the puzzle story https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=79.msg74454#msg74454, where one of the two protagonists always wants to believe in the existence of what he is looking for or believes, in the remaining unknown. Not the right method, in any case it is the opposite of science which is to model what is observed.
Video: 3 Things "Faster Than Light"
1. The expansion of the universe, and the speed of galaxies inside it.
2. Quantum entanglement.
3. The fastest possible cut through a piece of paper.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwj0o7SIsZf6AhWklIkEHZsBCgEQFnoECB8QAw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbs.org%2Fwgbh%2Fnova%2Farticle%2Fvideo-3-things-faster-than-light%2F&usg=AOvVaw0knV6wfYjiiUDNJq3LeitJ
Edit:
Did I actually measure a superluminous signal thus disproving the relativity theory?
https://www.researchgate.net/post/Did-I-actually-measure-a-superluminous-signal-thus-disproving-the-relativity-theory
Update: The measurement presented above (even though preliminary), together with the 18 references around detection of superluminal signals in my paper as well as the recent work of Steffen Kühn leave little doubt that the actual propagation speed of the electric field is superluminal rather than that it propagates at c:
Edit 2:
Experimental Clarification of Coulomb-Field Propagation
http://www.pandualism.com/c/coulomb_experiment.html
A simple experiment has been performed in order to measure propagation speed of the electric field. The results show that the Coulomb interaction propagates substantially faster than at speed of light c.
The measured propagation speeds v = Δx/Δt from the left to the right detector sphere, with Δt averaged over each five measurements, range from around 1.4 c to 5 c, and show a dependence on the distance from the spark gap.
Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.09.15, 18:05:39
The measured propagation speeds v = Δx/Δt from the left to the right detector sphere, with Δt averaged over each five measurements, range from around 1.4 c to 5 c, and show a dependence on the distance from the spark gap.
Surprisingly close to the 1.57c measured by Tesla+Dollard. ;D
I don't know where you find all this material Grumpy, but thanks very much for sharing :P
What I find interesting about Quantum Mechanics is how the extraluminal properties are
extremely well characterized, and yet almost completely unexplained. Entanglement and Bell Inequalities don't provide any actual insights or mechanic as to what might happening on the field/particle/subatomic level that is actually causing the superluminal/extraluminal action, it only offers the mathematical solutions to describe it.
Quote from: Hakasays on 2022.09.16, 00:11:22
Surprisingly close to the 1.57c measured by Tesla+Dollard. ;D
I don't know where you find all this material Grumpy, but thanks very much for sharing :P
What I find interesting about Quantum Mechanics is how the extraluminal properties are extremely well characterized, and yet almost completely unexplained. Entanglement and Bell Inequalities don't provide any actual insights or mechanic as to what might happening on the field/particle/subatomic level that is actually causing the superluminal/extraluminal action, it only offers the mathematical solutions to describe it.
I have always had an uncanny ability to attract information to myself, i.e find information pertaining to the questions at hand.
At times I know the answer, but can't prove it. That's some of the rules in this existence. Laws of confusion and free will. I digress into metaphysics...
Apparently, anything Coulomb has not proven to be popular. LOL!
I have posted many experiments, and calculations that indicate Coulomb "waves" are longitudinal and faster than C. I'll be sure the bring this information back to the surface when I'm pulling kilowatts out of "space".
Assume we are all right: what are the implications?
That is a question for F6. I know he'll have a valid answer.
Grumpy
QuoteI have always had an uncanny ability to attract information to myself, i.e find information pertaining to the questions at hand.
At times I know the answer, but can't prove it. That's some of the rules in this existence. Laws of confusion and free will. I digress into metaphysics...
Apparently, anything Coulomb has not proven to be popular. LOL!
Indeed and your not alone...
I thought I owned the internet at one point because finding impossibly obscure information came easily. However it wasn't me but the keywords/phrases I learned to use which caused the search algorithms to give me better results. So in essence you are correct, the more precise the definition of what were looking for the better the odds we will find it.
In fact, I was just thinking the same thing you were today. Where in the hell is Grumpy finding all these links?, because of course I am now compelled to read them all. So in some sense our version of science may be dependent on how many perspectives/opinions of science were exposed to. Many seem to think, I like what this scientist has to say but not another thus I will call this science real but not the other. Which obviously isn't objective science but just the opposite and very much subjective and opinionated. So "science" is never just science as many would have us believe because people and opinions are always involved.
Regards
AC
Most things are measured but not before they are thought of.
One can not measure what they haven't created or seen.Creativity is never stifled by the lack of measurement.But measurement is stifled by the lack of creativity.
This is why bicycle mechanics flew before the experts did.
Quote from: giantkiller on 2022.09.16, 03:27:31
Most things are measured but not before they are thought of.
One can not measure what they haven't created or seen.Creativity is never stifled by the lack of measurement.But measurement is stifled by the lack of creativity.
This is why bicycle mechanics flew before the experts did.
True, but creativity is only the ability to create. That's why mechanics didn't fly until they created what their creativity made them imagine.
Creativity is only revealed by the creations it brings about, and it is only creation that is decisive and useful to us. As far as FE is concerned, we cannot speak of creation since we do not have any, and therefore we cannot speak of creativity either since without creation, it is not proven.
Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.09.16, 01:17:40
...
I have posted many experiments, and calculations that indicate Coulomb "waves" are longitudinal and faster than C.
...
None of them are conclusive, for the reasons already given.
Quote
Video: 3 Things "Faster Than Light"
1. The expansion of the universe, and the speed of galaxies inside it.
2. Quantum entanglement.
The speed we are talking about is the limit speed c, basis of relativity. It is a locally measured speed, speed limit of matter/energy or information.
Explain to us how apparent velocities > c due to the expansion of the universe could lead to the transmission of matter/energy or information at this speed.
Explain us how quantum entanglement could lead to the transmission of information at a speed > c, when it is precisely proved that it is impossible in the framework of quantum mechanics to which you refer.
Speeds higher than c in science are not impossible. The phase velocity > c of a wave is even commonplace.
Obviously you don't master the subjects at all and mix everything up, you don't understand at all what speed is meant with c.
Update 10/6/22:
I've been on the road lately so have had very little opportunity for projects. However I was lucky enough to get the opportunity to do a couple preliminary tests with an Extra coil and VNA to characterize a marine vessel as a potential low-impedance ground plane to perform future Tesla telluric-related experiments.
The 'borehole project' I dug recently resulted in a 30ft pipe over 10ft beneath the water table. The pipe has an amazing DC resistance of only 2 ohms to electrical ground, but at 160m RF currents presents an impedance of over 40. Almost as bad as a single copper rod driven 8ft into soil :o. This suggested that surface-area is a larger factor than resistance in this field.
Lowest drive impedance with this type of earth ground was around 30 ohms with the Extra coils I wound (160m band predominantly). Note that measured results will always be a conjugate of other factors as well, like stray impedance and the Extra coil's drive impedance.
Eric Dollard's shop had an intense ground (multiple 10,000 gallon buried tanks) which resulted in a lowest measured drive impedance of 12-15 ohms with the coils I had brought+tested. This was optimized, with extremely short leads, coils directly over the ground tanks, resulting in minimal stray inductance.
The tests recently performed recently on a marine vessel was between the coil and hull ground to saltwater. Instead of a driven pipe with a few square feet of surface area, this setup provided over 20,000 square feet of surface area to ground. :o 8) The fact that the hull is painted doesn't matter as much as you'd think, since we're operating with AC impedance rather than DC resistance. As well as the fact that the signal must travel through many feet of high-resistance steel.
Preliminary analysis:
* With a simple 160m coil I was able to gather some VNA (vector network analyzer) data, and with no optimizations the coil presents a net drive impedance of only 10 ohms slightly under the 160m band (with the best conditions I could manage from minimal equipment).
* There does seem to be a direct correlation between operating frequency and impedance presented. Impedance at 1890kc was 20-30 ohms while 1400kc goes down to 10-15. One can imagine what kind of impedance Tesla faced with coil tuned to a mere 60-100kc. ^-^
* As expected, stray impedance plays a huge factor here. A single 12in alligator clip lead presented as a 3-5 ohms impedance in the ship test.
I'm still compiling data, should have more time this weekend to write everything up more formally. But the initial hypothesis seems accurate, that one of the absolute best places to perform these kinds of telluric experiments is on a ship. ;D O0
Quote
But since 'Spooky action at a distance' is proven and has been seen then anywhere close to c or above is usable.
This is not radio.
I've already replied to this, but now I come across an informative article that is normally accessible even if you haven't gone to university which explains why
"No, We Still Can't Use Quantum Entanglement To Communicate Faster Than Light". (https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2020/01/02/no-we-still-cant-use-quantum-entanglement-to-communicate-faster-than-light/?sh=1fd244974d5d)Note that it doesn't talk about the impossibility of exceeding c, but about the impossibility of doing so by quantum mechanics.
Quote from: F6FLT on 2022.10.12, 07:38:03
I've already replied to this, but now I come across an informative article that is normally accessible even if you haven't gone to university which explains why "No, We Still Can't Use Quantum Entanglement To Communicate Faster Than Light". (https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2020/01/02/no-we-still-cant-use-quantum-entanglement-to-communicate-faster-than-light/?sh=1fd244974d5d)
Note that it doesn't talk about the impossibility of exceeding c, but about the impossibility of doing so by quantum mechanics.
If it was concluded there were no nonlocal elements involved in entanglement, that the principle resulting in observation of entanglement would be akin to RF polarization. Then ya, the superluminal or extraluminal communication via the entanglement route would likely not be feasible.
The nice thing is for the telluric experiments, I am staging to perform the measurements
directly using a pair of GPS-diciplined oscillators. Preliminary testing between a pair of them suggests the GPS network is synchronized to within 60ns (or within 20ns for long-term tests over 30min).
So when I get to 2+ mile telluric transmission tests, the effective telluric and aerial propagation velocities could be conclusively measured to several significant digits.
Using GPS-diciplined oscillators would also make a nice follow-up replication of the Veritasium 'speed of light' tests in the other thread.
Quote from: Hakasays on 2022.10.12, 12:42:43
If it was concluded there were no nonlocal elements involved in entanglement, that the principle resulting in observation of entanglement would be akin to RF polarization. Then ya, the superluminal or extraluminal communication via the entanglement route would likely not be feasible.
The reason can be stated more simply than in the article.
If we could fix the state of particle A which is 0 AND 1 at a certain value, e.g. 0, then the state of particle B which is its complementary would be fixed at 1, and we would communicate instantly.
But we can't fix the state of particle A, we can only read it and the reading is random. If we read it at 0, it fixes A at 0 and B at 1, but the state of particle A does not depend on our data, so neither does B, hence the no-communication theorem.
The universal law of physics is Murphy's Law. :(
Quote from: Hakasays on 2022.10.12, 12:42:43
...
The nice thing is for the telluric experiments, I am staging to perform the measurements directly using a pair of GPS-diciplined oscillators. Preliminary testing between a pair of them suggests the GPS network is synchronized to within 60ns (or within 20ns for long-term tests over 30min).
So when I get to 2+ mile telluric transmission tests, the effective telluric and aerial propagation velocities could be conclusively measured to several significant digits.
Using GPS-diciplined oscillators would also make a nice follow-up replication of the Veritasium 'speed of light' tests in the other thread.
The principle seems correct. 60 ns is 18 m at the speed of light.
You will need at least 18 m of difference in distance between the two modes of propagation.
Who knew that 2 months stuck on-the-road for work followed by holiday projects and other tangents could put such a dent in this topic?! C.C :P
Anyway, we have finally been able to coordinate a good propagation test this weekend using a combination of overland and underground setups.
Upcoming test is universally on 160m band, specifically 1.86mc.
Adrian Marsh (UK)
Copper irrigation piping ground, can be irrigated with water to significantly lower impedance
2-coil and 3-coil extremely well balanced tuning
1.5kw+ transmit capability
Griffin Brock (Pasadena, CA)
2ea 52gal buried steel drum barrels (optionally filled with water)
2-coil and 3-coil setup
400w transmit capability
Hakasays Telluric site (Southern California, ~120mi from Griffin)
Sheet aluminum in saltwater ocean ground
Single coil extra (optional impedance matching transformer)
60w transmit capability
Hakasays Transverse site (Southern California, ~120mi from Griffin and ~5mi from telluric site)
Vertical 10-80m antenna to 24/7 SDR
Simple copper rod ground
Unattended (used to gauge transverse signal)
Adrian's is the most advanced and precise preise structurally, as he has decades experience with such apparatus. But it's a hail-mary shot as the ground currents required for intercontinental comms may be in the hundreds-of-amperes (note the use of amperes here and not watts!).
Griffin has a middle-ground setup, but more transmit capability than the impromptu test we performed last year.
Mine is the simplest due to logistics issues, but is of a configuration that Eric Dollard stumbled on in the 70-80's. The vertical SDR should also serve as a nice baseline to compare overland and underground propagation.
If we get a strong signal with one and no signal with the other, that would be strong evidence to a different propagation mode taking place.
Depending on time+conditions, we may also be able to take advantage of online SDR's scattered across the planet to help gauge overland transverse propagation. Ideally we would all have AM radio station quality ground with <1 ohm system impedance throughout, but, such is life. ;D
I am happy to answer any technical questions, and can forward any Q's to Griffin/Adrian if anyone has questions about the details of their setups. :)
For telluric sites, will the devices be buried, or at least operated from basements?
I have already warned about the radio radiation artefact. Also testing with a radio antenna for comparison is a good idea, but not sufficient, because if the supposed "telluric" signal is only received less strongly, what can be concluded?
A good idea is also to place RF filters on the mains connection, as the mains network easily tends to act as a radio antenna.
Are the other guys radio operators?
Quote from: F6FLT on 2023.01.26, 15:56:43
For telluric sites, will the devices be buried, or at least operated from basements?
We've not had any success with indoor testing that I'm aware (possibly Steve Hill)
In a conventional radio, a ground plane is usually required to act as a counterpoise, to balance the overhead radiator. It makes sense that a ground-based radio may still need an aerial dielectric plane to act as a counterpoise to the telluric radiator. Laws of reciprocity.
Quote from: F6FLT on 2023.01.26, 15:56:43
A good idea is also to place RF filters on the mains connection, as the mains network easily tends to act as a radio antenna.
Good call, but in practice HF amplifiers tend to be quite isolated by-design; the only times you tend to see feedback into mains is when the ground is poor or nonexistent. Usually you can tell there's feedback because any electronics on the same circuit will go flaky and spontaneously enable/disable or suddenly fail/fry. Or you'll start getting small RF shocks by touching parts of the transmitter. ???
I'm on battery power for this upcoming test, I'm pretty sure Adrian is on filtered/isolated AC, and I will make sure Griffin is filtered/isolated as well. ;)
We're all licensed HAM's with plenty of experience with RF+propagation, and we're all working in legal bounds in this test. ;)
Quote from: Hakasays on 2023.01.26, 20:42:33
...
Good call, but in practice HF amplifiers tend to be quite isolated by-design; the only times you tend to see feedback into mains is when the ground is poor or nonexistent.
...
I am not talking about leakage through the internal circuitry of the amplifier, but through the ground currents.
HF amplifiers never (or rarely) have a balanced output but coaxial.
If one connects a simple wire with a tuning box, the antenna is in fact made up of the wire on one side, and the ground of the amp box on the other side, so the ground socket of the mains plug serves as a HF ground socket, the HF current passes through it (as much as through the wire), and therefore passes by coupling into the other wires of the mains which can then radiate like an antenna, making the electrical counterweight of the wire.
Even if the antenna is not a simple wire but a well matched balanced antenna, like a dipole, the problem is reduced but still exists due to the ground currents. Only an RF toroidal transformer, whose secondary is connected to the radiating device without ground connection, can prevent this by transforming the unbalanced output into a balanced output.
Quote from: F6FLT on 2023.01.27, 16:40:11
I am not talking about leakage through the internal circuitry of the amplifier, but through the ground currents.
HF amplifiers never (or rarely) have a balanced output but coaxial.
If one connects a simple wire with a tuning box, the antenna is in fact made up of the wire on one side, and the ground of the amp box on the other side, so the ground socket of the mains plug serves as a HF ground socket, the HF current passes through it (as much as through the wire), and therefore passes by coupling into the other wires of the mains which can then radiate like an antenna, making the electrical counterweight of the wire.
Even if the antenna is not a simple wire but a well matched balanced antenna, like a dipole, the problem is reduced but still exists due to the ground currents. Only an RF toroidal transformer, whose secondary is connected to the radiating device without ground connection, can prevent this by transforming the unbalanced output into a balanced output.
I understand. In this case everyone is using some degree of isolation to limit ground current feedback (if only because it helps protect the transmitters and local line current :P).
Mine will be Impedance-matched direct drive and also running fully on battery (H1), Adrian is expected to be running in Magnifying transmitter mode (H3), and I'm not 100% sure about Griffin but I suspect he'll be running 3-coil as well (but probably not as well balanced).
Leads are always very short because stray inductance is to be absolutely minimized in these types of tests. It's amazing how much stray inductance even a 15ft 8awg round wire can introduce! :o
The nice thing about the 160m band is that reception is highly dependent on sky and F-layer conditions. So if a successful contact is made and then lost several hours later, that would suggest the dominant mode was aerial transverse, and not ground longitudinal.
Well, a weekend 160m DX contest and bad weather nearly cancelled the event. Conditions were pretty much at a minimum throughout. Poor solar activity as well throughout the weekend.
Hakasays station - Took a few VNA readings. Zero results with overland or telluric, as QRM from an AM Mexican radio station transmitting on 1.7mc (we were 1.86). Was getting spatter and interference all across the band and lots of what sounds like man-made interference. Mobile setup so limited to receive-only as this particular topload tends to arc-out at a low magnitude.
Griffin station - Also poor weather, transmitter was limited to ~80w and ground impedance is so-so.
Adrian station - Tuned to 1kw but intercontinental contact from UK was always pretty unlikely.
Gavin station - Receive-only Transverse (good site+station) No reception from NE USA over this setup.
* Lower frequencies.
This will likely require stacks of pancake coils to hit the ultrasonic band Tesla was operating in (50-100kc)
Down in this range the dielectric loss tangents for most materials becomes almost negligible.
* Longer range single-wire longitudinal experiments.
This is to help improve tuning and understanding of such setups. It may also serve as a good badeline to characterize loss tangents over a wide spectra.
* Short single-wire testing with 'telluric analogues'.
Similar to Adrian's single-wire tests, but instead using something like small section of water or soil. This can also prove useful in reverse-engineering an electrical characteristics for tellurics, as having even a poor schematic could significantly improve our understanding and focus.