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Author Topic: Principles of Operation  (Read 9281 times)

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Since this is 'principles of operation' thread, lets get back to that. :P

Potential principle-of-operation:  Telluric communication+power system.

* Power transmission through-the-earth performed via series resonance, using the Earth as a dielectric medium rather than a conductive one.

Since displacement currents have different loss properties compared to conduction currents, improved performance results at significant range.


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Hakasays,

it is easy to give advice, here my advice for your experiment :)

If you want use longitudinal waves in the media (ground) you need think about it as a transmission line.
You know distance between transmitter and receiver, this is a line length. You can probably guess other properties and you get wave length or frequency to use. This is your "carrier" frequency, use some low modulation frequency to transmit data/voice etc.

Have fun,
Vasik
   

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Quote from: F6FLT
In that I am like everyone else here, no one has succeeded in producing FE or transmitting energy wirelessly around the earth. As Tesla didn't succeed either, that will make us a common point. :)

F6, I somehow doubt you've made any faithful attempts to reproduce Tesla's work, as I haven't been able to find anything online by you or others that ever came close.  You probably couldn't even tell me what frequencies Tesla was operating at in Colorado Springs without looking it up, let alone the number of coils, geometry and overall configuration C.C

I suggest re-reading the Colorado Springs notes a few times before making pompous claims, as Tesla lays out some of his early success in plain black-and-white (attached).
(Edit: adding link:  https://oiipdf.com/download/nikola-tesla-colorado-springs-notes-1899-1900-pdf)



I have operating principles and mathematics and guidance from successful replicators to work with, but I freely admit that there's a good chance for failure, especially as I learn the critical operating parameters required for high-quality operation.  Just as the dozens of failed predecessors to the Wright Bros before flight did.

If you don't approach this stuff with an open mind, you won't be motivated to perform faithful experiments.
And if you don't perform experiments, you have zero chance of success. ;)
« Last Edit: 2022-09-10, 04:22:40 by Hakasays »


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Regarding Tesla's attempts to transmit energy, he gave an interview wit his attorneys when he was in his 70's.  This interview is in a book, I can't recall the title.  In this interview he states that the magnifying transmitter was the technology of the time, and that it is not the way he would do it now.  He doesn't explain what he means by that.

Also, in this interview, he dispels the popular myth that Morgan had pulled funding for his tower because he wanted to give the world "free energy".  Tesla states that Morgan fulfilled his obligations to the letter (the agreement they had). Tesla explains that success of his tower was complicated by natural elements (I cannot recall his words, just the impression).
   

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Quote from: F6FLT
The extra-coil has a capacitance with respect to the ground, so we have a tuned circuit looped by the displacement currents to the ground, and there is no surprise to see a strong current flowing at the resonance.

* Do you know the dielectric loss tangent of water/soil at 50-100kc?
* Do you know why it is critical to minimize ground impedance in a telluric system?
* How might a ground with 2 ohms DC resistance perform worse than a ground with 50 ohms DC resistance?
* What is the approximate velocity of dielectric induction, according to Nikola Tesla, Eric Dollard, and Charles Wheatstone?
* Do you understand why I ask these questions? :P


Quote from: F6FLT
Maxwell explains this easily, you should read him too.

Maxwell did a good job mathematically modeling displacement current, but he doesn't cover the fundamental process or propagation properties involved.  The term was introduced largely to maintain continuity; to balance the equations.

You should read Steinmetz and Heaviside and Dollard as they dig much deeper into propagation properties in complex transmission lines.  Things like skin effect and transients and dynamic impedance variation.


Quote from: F6FLT
The Colorado Springs Note is a good observation of an effect, but a false theoretical interpretation. That's why the transmission of energy is limited to small distances, where the displacement currents loop. Beyond that it doesn't work anymore, unless the dimensions of the circuit were scaled to the distance to be covered.

The efficiency of a telluric transmission using dielectric/longitudinal induction is limited predominantly by the series impedance of the equivalent circuit, the dielectric loss tangent of the medium, and the contact area of of the capacitor.

A few ground rods fed with a round wire connecting to the transmitter can easily present a system impedance of 50 ohms or greater, even in the 160m band.  You may as well be transmitting into a resistor at that point. :P



Quote from: F6FLT
why we must focus on a possible longitudinal wave, even if it is erroneously claimed to be at work in Tesla when Maxwell is enough.
There are recent studies and publications on the subject, see Grumpy's thread "Scalar Longitudinal Waves (SLW)". Several scientists even seem to be converging on the same set of equations beyond Maxwell, to incorporate the longitudinal wave. The experimental demonstration remains to be done, see Bruce Lee.

Eric Dollard demonstrated in the 80's that LMD waves can be modeled using standard EE formulas and an 'upturned' transmission line network:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNFpJVpm9Cs

One does not need to rewrite electrical engineering or employ pages of complex equations in order to model longitudinal waves; any circuit simulator will already do it. ;)
« Last Edit: 2022-09-10, 04:23:10 by Hakasays »


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Do longitudinal waves lead to overunity?
   

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Do longitudinal waves lead to overunity?

In my opinion, not by themselves, and not in any system that is electrically symmetric.  Longitudinal waves are simply a novel means of transferring power over distance.
My personal opinion is that parametric variation (of inductance, capacitance, or combined impedance) is the necessary condition for production/destruction of energy.

Consider though that a charged capacitor whose capacitance is quickly decreased creates a longitudinal/displacement wave as a side-product (directly analogous to earthquake displacement causing a tsunami in the ocean).


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...If you don't even know half the people...
Do you know the...
Do you know why...
...
Do you understand why I ask...

argumentum ad ignorantiam. Sophism.

Quote
...
A few ground rods fed with a round wire connecting to the transmitter can easily present a system impedance of 50 ohms or greater, even in the 160m band.
...
You should read Steinmetz and Heaviside and Dollard as they dig much deeper into propagation properties in complex transmission lines.  T
...
Eric Dollard demonstrated in the 80's that LMD waves can be modeled using standard EE formulas and an 'upturned' transmission line networ

The transmission lines are precisely made to replace the remote energy transmissions that we do not know how to do otherwise than by radio and generally with little efficiency.

The transmission lines are the engineering of the medium, not the engineering of the transmitter nor of the receiver nor of the coupling of both with the medium, which is, I thought, the interest of your experiment. If you consider the earth as a transmission line and the science is already known with Heaviside or Dollard, you must already know the result of your UK/US link.

If I have to read Dollard about that, where can I find his texts? Videos are totally insufficient.



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argumentum ad ignorantiam.
Your response is argumentum ad ignorantiam.  Each question was presented for a specific reason related to telluric+longitudinal research.

   **** Do you know the dielectric loss tangent of water/soil at 50-100kc?
Reason 1:  Dielectric (displacement current) losses go down with frequency, and are potentially negligible in the LF spectrum for these materials.
Reason 2:  Nikola Tesla was operating in the 50-80kc range in Colorado Springs.

   **** Do you know why it is critical to minimize ground impedance in a telluric system?
Answer:  Because efficiency of an LC circuit depends on it.  Any stray impedance in a telluric system will appear as an equivalent series resistance.

   **** How might a ground with 2 ohms DC resistance perform worse than a ground with 50 ohms DC resistance?
Answer: If the contact area of the 50 ohms ground was greater than the 2 ohm ground, it would present as a lower impedance, despite having significantly higher DC resistance.
      (note: I just encountered this yesterday! ;D)

   **** What is the approximate velocity of dielectric induction, according to Nikola Tesla, Eric Dollard, and Charles Wheatstone?
Answer:  PI/2 times the velocity of light.

   ***** Do you understand why I ask these questions?
Answer:  Because the questions are directly related to my work and I wanted to probe your depth of knowledge.  Your avoidance infered a lack of knowledge on the subject.


Quote from: F6FLT
The transmission lines are precisely made to replace the remote energy transmissions that we do not know how to do otherwise than by radio and generally with little efficiency.
It depends whether you're talking about a transverse or longitudinal transmission line, and whether you're talking about continuous waves or transient impulses.
Both will have different properties and loss conditions vs distance (as you can model yourself with the analog network in the previous post).

Quote from: F6FLT
The transmission lines are the engineering of the medium, not the engineering of the transmitter nor of the receiver nor of the coupling of both with the medium, which is, I thought, the interest of your experiment. If you consider the earth as a transmission line and the science is already known with Heaviside or Dollard, you must already know the result of your UK/US link.

As with the pre-Wright-bros flight experiments, there are still some technical and engineering questions remaining to be tackled. ;)

* The technical question is one of loss tangents and bulk transmission medium characteristics for longitudinal waves.  We know Tesla operated in the 50-100kc region, but that may not be explicitly required for simple communications.  There is very little published research regarding bulk dielectric/magnetic properties and loss tangents at such low frequencies.

* The engineering problem is one of ground impedance.  Ideal impedance is 1 ohm or less, which requires substantial engineering in order achieve (like burying multiple 10,000 gallon steel tanks underground).
We hope that our modest home-based arrangements will be enough to overcome the impedance and dielectric losses, but in every case we are working to improve this.

The 160m amateur radio band was chosen for a combination of cost and legality.  We hope the loss tangents and bulk properties are still favorable enough at the 1.8-2mc region to allow reasonable propagation in the 1-2kw region.  It also means we only have to wind 100-200ft coils rather than 3500ft+ coils. :P


Quote from: F6FLT
If I have to read Dollard about that, where can I find his texts? Videos are totally insufficient.

I think you'd like the video because it's an actual live experiment with both configurations demonstrating the different properties of both networks.  It's a very straightforward and scientific approach: O0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNFpJVpm9Cs


But if you do want to deep-dive, there are plenty of papers from the 80's that attempt to describe+model the different transmission networks.  Be aware that Eric is a 19th century Electrical Engineer so his work is built largely around the materials and perspective of Steinmetz, Heaviside, and Maxwell:

'Theory of Wireless Power'
https://ericpdollard.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/theory_of_wireless_power_eric_dollard.pdf

'Build your own Alexanderson Antenna':
http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Eric_Dollard_Document_Collection/Build%20your%20own%20Alexanderson%20Antenna%20by%20Eric%20Dollard.pdf

I think there is also a chapter in Lone Pine Writings that is quite a bit simpler both conceptually and mathematically; I will post the relevant pages when I find it.

Also more bulk written material here: http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Eric_Dollard_Document_Collection/

(Don't worry if it doesn't make sense right away, I studied for about 2yrs before the concepts started to click)


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What are the supporting facts?
What such links have already been made, by whom, and between which points on earth far enough away not to assume a simple EM wave?

If you don't understand the principles being discussed, it's best not to speak as an authority on them. :-X

F6FLT, you openly declared that Tesla had failed without knowing any details about his experimental setup or understanding of the principles being used.  Argumentum ad Ignorantiam to the extreme.
You've already demonstrated a lack of knowledge on the subject by avoiding my relevant questions.  Don't dig the knife deeper.

I would suggest anyone interested in this stuff start by building a simple transverse and longitudinal network and compare the properties and effective propagation velocities of both.
(ideally in real life with real components but a sim will usually work too)
Measure the frequency of both modes with the same upturned components and note the ratio and effective velocity difference between the two modes.

F6, if you're serious about this, find the frequency ratio between a transverse and longitudinal network and I will continue our discussion.  I prefer to not waste too much time with trolls.


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Frequency equals matter...


Buy me a drink
Everything is a test if you haven't attended the lessons.


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'There are no foolish questions, and no man becomes a fool until he has stopped asking questions.' -- Charles Proteus Steinmetz


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https://www.bitchute.com/video/6DsqNeO2wrxD/

I comment why it's important to have operating principles to guide our experiments+replications; to break down 'exotic' systems and try and understand them from their simplest concepts+components.


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It is however simple to verify it: it is enough to couple a Tesla coil to a radio receiver, and one realizes that one receives rather well the radio emissions around the resonance frequency.[/b] Could it be that radio was already made in longitudinal waves, and nobody knew about it? ;D

F6, I can tell you still haven't gone over any of Adrian's material as he covers this quite clearly in all of the ranged experiments. C.C C.C


https://www.am-innovations.com/telluric-transference-of-electric-power-mf-band-2-8-miles/
Quote
5. Comparison of radio-wave and telluric-wave measurement by re-tuning the RX coil from the Telluric ground plate connection, to an ungrounded single wire bottom-end extension.

https://www.am-innovations.com/telluric-transference-of-electric-power-brookmans-park-am-radio-transmitter/
Quote
4. A modular Tesla coil transformer receiver (RX) designed to tune both the parallel and series resonant modes to 909kc and 1089kc, corresponding with two of the station’s transmitting frequencies, and optimized for the longitudinal magneto-dielectric (LMD) transmission mode.

6. At 300m from the transmitting station antenna, in the near-field and within the induction field of the TX, a maximum of ~55mW of power could be measured using an HP435B with HP8481H thermocouple sensor, and with RX tuned to the parallel mode at 909kc, and using a tested good ground connection.

7. The telluric wave was measured to contribute ~39mW to the total received power, and the radio wave ~16mW of power, showing that more power was received directly through the telluric channel between TX and RX.


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When one does not understand conventional science, how can one tell the difference between a new effect or an anomaly with respect to the laws of physics, and normal behavior?

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”― Albert Einstein

In my travels I found most inventors don't care so much about science or the difference between a new effect or an anomaly. The inventors mind works differently than everyone else and it tends to revolve around imagery, problem solving and finding solutions that work.

Quote
It is however simple to verify it: it is enough to couple a Tesla coil to a radio receiver, and one realizes that one receives rather well the radio emissions around the resonance frequency. Could it be that radio was already made in longitudinal waves, and nobody knew about it?.

Unfortunately, this simple experiment is not seen by E Dollard and other believers, they prefer to indulge in the mythology that they have created around Tesla.

It's debatable, some of my radiant/longitudinal wave experiments induced circuits inside a Faraday cage which science claims must exclude all EM/RF for know reasons. Logically it must be an anomaly or science doesn't fully understand how Faraday cages work. However the most likely answer is Faraday cages do work and the disturbance in question is different than standard EM/RF. I don't think it's that big of a deal and as we know new discoveries are being made every minute of every day.

Regards
AC



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A Faraday cage only protects against static electricity, i.e. the electric charges arrange themselves in such a way as to cancel the field.

In dynamics, the operation is not at all the same because no configuration of static charges can mask an induced current.
In dynamics, a "Faraday cage" is simply a shield dissipating induced currents, and if it is not thick enough, it leaks.

It is extremely easy for me to receive AM radio when the receiver is enclosed in a metal sugar box! This doesn't call into question electromagnetism. It only calls into question the competence of those who misunderstand and take physicists for idiots who would not have noticed it.

"It is enough to couple a Tesla coil to a radio receiver, and one realizes that one receives rather well the radio emissions around the resonance frequency" : it is not "debatable", it is an experiment, it is enough to check the facts. Too complicated, guys?! I also have to tell you how to do it?


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Willingness to perform+follow experiments represents a willingness to be proven wrong.


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F6FLT
Quote
A Faraday cage only protects against static electricity, i.e. the electric charges arrange themselves in such a way as to cancel the field.
In dynamics, the operation is not at all the same because no configuration of static charges can mask an induced current.
In dynamics, a "Faraday cage" is simply a shield dissipating induced currents, and if it is not thick enough, it leaks.
It is extremely easy for me to receive AM radio when the receiver is enclosed in a metal sugar box! This doesn't call into question electromagnetism. It only calls into question the competence of those who misunderstand and take physicists for idiots who would not have noticed it.

It seems contradictory because many claim charge will distribute itself evenly over the surface of a conductor or there cannot be an electric field inside it then some claim a Faraday cage isn't perfect contradicting there last claim... so which is it?. It seems to me you and many other critics are just cherry picking facts to support your own narrative.

Quote
"It is enough to couple a Tesla coil to a radio receiver, and one realizes that one receives rather well the radio emissions around the resonance frequency" : it is not "debatable", it is an experiment, it is enough to check the facts. Too complicated, guys?! I also have to tell you how to do it?

In my opinion you don't understand scientific experiments very well. Any credible experiment should exclude any artifacts or effects not related to the thing were trying to study which is radiant/longitudinal waves. Your experiment proves nothing because any kind of disturbance including RF could be received and we would never know the difference between them.

It's also disingenuous because you have set up the experiment in know ways to get the result you want. It's what Feynman called "cargo cult science" where the result was already decided before the experiment was even performed. "There is one feature I notice that is generally missing in cargo cult science (junk science) … It's a kind of scientific integrity, a principle of scientific thought that corresponds to a kind of utter honesty."--Richard Feynman.

You see in my experiments I used Faraday cage shielding, plastic/dielectric insulation and distance (inverse square law) to rule out RF. Not to prove myself right, only to prove something was happening I did not fully understand. As many of the greatest minds implied, we cannot learn anything new without being wrong about something...

Regards
AC







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AllCanadian seems to contribute more in terms of ideas and experiments.   ;)


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In my opinion, you don't understand the basics of physics, to put it mildly, and I have given facts that confirm this.

That is your opinion, I prefer to think I have been down that path and at the end of it I was left wanting. As Hakasays implied, there are too many unknowns and contradictions few want to address.

My theory based on my own experimental observations was that if the magnitude of change of a disturbance is much greater than the ability of a medium/material to conduct it a slightly different form of "conduction" can occur. This based on Nikola Tesla's lectures, experiments and observations.

We could think of it this way, if we could force a massive number of charge carriers into a surface in nanoseconds faster than it could possibly conduct them away a material expansion/ejection could occur. Now we have extra motion not normally considered as the charge carrier/material is no longer static but dynamic, ie motional. You see as an inventor I can easily imagine a "conductor" moving in multiple dimensions.

It's textbook physics isn't it?, the rate at which a charge carrying "conductor" moves determines the magnitude of the inductive effect on other nearby conductors. However now we have a little snag because the supposed surface which was supposedly conducting is now expanding radially outward at a rate faster than the rate of linear conduction were familiar with. Wait... what?, the surface could become variable?. Well, of course it can because in reality the field is always a function of the aggregate of charge carriers and not the objects we think were seeing, it's an illusion. Remember, all material including conductors is only 1% matter and 99% EM fields. In reality it's not material in the sense we imagine it to be it's fluid, apply enough energy to a material and it becomes fluid. 

In any case it's cool, whatever starts your tractor and at this point I'm just happy to wake up each morning. I'm thankful your here to offer another perspective and right or wrong it adds to the debate.

Regards
AC


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You are referring to radiant electricity, the elusive discovery of Nikola Tesla.

He published a lecture in 1892, on the "Dissipation of Electricity", but I've not been able to find this lecture.

Tesla supposedly discovered a new method of induction, a new electrical force, etc.

Peter Lindemann wrote a nice book about he subject, it's discovery, and applications.

I believe there has to be some correctness to all of the stories, even if most are exaggerations and falsehoods. 

Did Bedini use radiant electricity, I have my doubts.

Dr. Moray probably did use it.

If you can duplicate this radiant electric effect, then please share it with everyone else so that they can also experiment with it.


   
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You are referring to radiant electricity, the elusive discovery of Nikola Tesla.

He published a lecture in 1892, on the "Dissipation of Electricity", but I've not been able to find this lecture.

Tesla supposedly discovered a new method of induction, a new electrical force, etc.

Peter Lindemann wrote a nice book about he subject, it's discovery, and applications.

I believe there has to be some correctness to all of the stories, even if most are exaggerations and falsehoods. 

Did Bedini use radiant electricity, I have my doubts.

Dr. Moray probably did use it.

If you can duplicate this radiant electric effect, then please share it with everyone else so that they can also experiment with it.

https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4227.msg98874#msg98874

PS https://teslauniverse.com/nikola-tesla/articles/dissipation-electrical-energy-hertz-resonator
   

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  :)
« Last Edit: 2022-09-09, 20:29:09 by Hakasays »


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