Analyzing Robert Murray-Smith videos/claims

[PhysicsProf]

  Here's his video from 2 days ago, thousands of views already:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXLj6acGPbQ&list=TLIIZlyELru20

No control experiment, yet.  I'd like to see a simple weight hanging from a (fresh) string -- see if it also spins and speeds up.  I think it would, due to "untwisting" of the string simply due to the weight.

He references another video, and there the magnetic suspension mechanism could introduce spin.  

[TinselKoala]

The test with the non-magnet weight is in the third video below. You can also see in the comments to Murray-Smith's video that several other people have tried it and have come to the same conclusion I have.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehva-GfWdXA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfuRyLxRPDI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTY_wLKK_Ak

And if you look into how the electromagnetic Levitron works, you will also understand where the rotation of the white levitated sphere comes from in that longer video.


Designing and performing the right _control experiments_ is part of the fine art of doing Science. If one only does _demonstrations_ of an effect, one cannot determine actual cause-and-effect relationships between the variables and constants concerned. Control experiments are done to rule out alternative explanations for the phenomena and effects noted. They will keep one from making claims that just look silly or fraudulent, like "Perpetual Motion" from a couple of magnets dangling on a bit of thread.

[Centraflow]

The test with the non-magnet weight is in the third video below. You can also see in the comments to Murray-Smith's video that several other people have tried it and have come to the same conclusion I have.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehva-GfWdXA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfuRyLxRPDI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTY_wLKK_Ak

And if you look into how the electromagnetic Levitron works, you will also understand where the rotation of the white levitated sphere comes from in that longer video.


Designing and performing the right _control experiments_ is part of the fine art of doing Science. If one only does _demonstrations_ of an effect, one cannot determine actual cause-and-effect relationships between the variables and constants concerned. Control experiments are done to rule out alternative explanations for the phenomena and effects noted. They will keep one from making claims that just look silly or fraudulent, like "Perpetual Motion" from a couple of magnets dangling on a bit of thread.

Good work TK

But I have done another test of which I will video with my phone as my camera has battery problems and the web cam is only 1.3Mp.

The test is :-

Use a cotton thread  "least resistance to turning and you do not want tortion action"

Cotton must be central between the two magnets "to stop any offset movement the best as possible"

Suspend in the open where no metal or magnetic influences are present

Let spin, note direction of spin "seems it is always CCW, why? are cotton threads always twisted CW? maybe"

Leave to spin in both directions due to windup of cotton, until it has completely stopped.

Once stopped, place your hand under the magnets and lift vertical so taking the tension off of the cotton, note what happens and try to explain if it was just the winding up of the cotton that was causing the spin in the "first" place! Remember the presumption is the twist in the cotton is causing the spin, now the cotton is twisted more and does not move!!!!  "equilibrium!! to what? a magnetic field?" hum still questions to be answered I think!

Repeat experiment with metal weight no magnetised.

Video later in the day I hope

regards

Mike

[TinselKoala]

I know what you are talking about and I've addressed that issue in other comments. The thread is made of layers of twisted fibers, not just a single twist. The stretching due to the weight untwists the "outer layers" but puts increasing twist in the inner layers. Or the other way around, perhaps. Take a look at how the thread is made under a microscope or strong magnifying lens.

You are left with the problem of explaining why any weight which is the same as the magnets, still rotates in the same direction and the same speed as the magnets do, and why nothing rotates if you use a single fiber that does not have any twist in it.

A proper theory must account for all observed data. You can't just take one phenomenon out of the total set of observations and use that one and that one only as a basis for your theory. Magnets and weights spin the same when suspended from the same kind of thread, and don't spin when suspended from single fibers that have no twist themselves.

[Centraflow]

Very good point on the double twist.

So as to remove all concerns I have taken a single hemp thread "strong" and suspended the magnets again, no movement, which proves what you are saying

Well I think that puts it to bed well it now does for me, all good experiences I think

regards

Mike

[TinselKoala]

It's even a bit more complicated than just the double twist, as I've just found out. The "twist storage" depends very sensitively on the weight, or rather the pull force, in the thread. I've made Yet Another video with a few more experiments.

First, I used a fine needle point instead of the drywall screw, which allowed a much lower friction arrangement than the screw or the bearing. I also used more of a loop through the needle eye so that the thread or  monofilament dangles directly down in line with the needle itself, rather than being off-center as with the screw I used before. I compared the monofilament with the thread using this much  lower friction suspension. Before, the drywall screw allowed about two full rotations of "twist storage" with the monofilament before releasing. Now with the needle it's less than 1/8 of a rotation "twist storage" before the needle starts turning, so much less friction than before.

Then... I did a very interesting last experiment to finish up the series. I put a small tape flag on the needle so its rotation can be seen more easily, and I varied the pull force on the thread by pulling down on it until the needle separated from the suspension magnet. The maximum pull on the thread is when the needle just comes off the magnet, and as I pull further down, the needle is less attracted to the suspension magnet so the pull force decreases. So the needle rotates from the stored twist energy in the thread either clockwise or counterclockwise as the downward pull force is increased or decreased. This means that for any given pull force there is a certain amount of energy stored in the twist, so the equilibrium "no rotation" twist amount depends on the weight or pull force. (Since I am pulling down manually on the HDD magnets, that takes any rotation coming from them out of the system; all rotation is coming from the thread.) So that accounts for the twisting up of the thread when all weight is removed. I think that this differential twist storage is due to the multiple twist layers in the thread combined with the slight stretching caused by the varying pull force (or weight) on the thread.

I'm processing and uploading the video now, it will take an hour or so to complete. It's a bit longer than the others, 12 minutes or so, but please be sure to watch the end part where the last experiment is done.  I'll put a link here when it's ready.

This may seem like a silly project, but it seems that there is always something to be learned, even from the silliest ones, once an in-depth exploration is performed.

[PhysicsProf]

  Well done, TK - you did the control experiments which Rober M-S failed to do, and ferreted out the basis of the spinning due to strings with weights.  And you recorded the results on video and shared those results. 

[Centraflow]

This may seem like a silly project, but it seems that there is always something to be learned, even from the silliest ones, once an in-depth exploration is performed.

My sentiments exactly

regards

Mike

[TinselKoala]

  Well done, TK - you did the control experiments which Rober M-S failed to do, and ferreted out the basis of the spinning due to strings with weights.  And you recorded the results on video and shared those results. 

Thanks!

I want to emphasize that the discussions here and on the comments to my YT videos brought up important points, and things I had missed, and suggestions for improvements and alternate tests. This "peer review" is also an important part of the scientific process. Working in a vacuum, so to speak, seals one off from this kind of productive discussion and allows one to remain blind to improvements and alternative interpretations of a limited data set. Even though I'm the one doing the work in this case, it is still very much a "team" process and I'm thankful to everyone who has commented and contributed suggestions that I might not have thought of on my own. Constructive criticisms are challenges to be met and if possible overcome, they are not attacks! Everybody benefits from careful review, analysis and critiques of controversial work that is presented for consideration. And while I think my results are conclusive, there may be others who aren't convinced. If that's the case then I encourage those people to do their own careful experiments, not forgetting the proper controls, and to document and discuss their work openly.



The upload of the latest video still isn't ready yet, I have a really slow internet connection, plus the thing had to go through rendering with OpenShot and then another transcoding step with WinFF to get the file size down to a reasonable value. "Soon" it will be ready to view.

[TinselKoala]

OK, the latest video is in the pipe and should be viewable in a few minutes.

http://youtu.be/ofF3zHo_okM

[kEhYo77]

Hi TK.
Did you say in the last video that your magnets ALIGN with North-South of the Earth?
So, do the magnets used have only single pole on the flat side?!?
I've just repeated Robert's experiment an it WORKS for me.
My magnets have North&South poles next to each other on the flat side.
It starts to spin, it accelerates and the cotton string is coiling up so after a while I have to unwind it.

[Slider2732]

@TK - enjoyed those findings, particularly of the distance of the needle with the flag on it.
That allows a greater understanding of the thread mechanics.
One thing it is doing, is giving a reliable 90 degree force change...and I keep thinking that there has to be a practical use within all this. Some sort of force multiplication perhaps, similar to the way that levers can move large weights.
Something such as an electromagnet/person pulling the needle down, imparting the spin to a couple of opposite side mounted magnets (mounted somewhat away from the needle on pieces of cotton earbud tube or some such). Those magnets cog rotors that link via cotton lines down to the bottom of the assembly and hence the twist is multiplied ?

[PhysicsProf]

...
I've just repeated Robert's experiment an it WORKS for me.
My magnets have North&South poles next to each other on the flat side.
It starts to spin, it accelerates and the cotton string is coiling up so after a while I have to unwind it.

Thanks for doing the experiment.

Have you done the control experiment with fresh thread and a simple weight?

Have you done an experiment with the magnets on, say, plastic fishing line (monofilament) instead of thread?

[kEhYo77]

I have not done control experiments yet but I made sure my fresh thread was oriented in such a way as for unwinding would occur clockwise. My magnets spin counter clockwise (northern hemisphere) so my thread is getting tighter to the point it starts coiling up. The force acting here is minute but it is there. I made another variant with a needle hooked up to a magnet stack, like in TK's last video but I noticed that the friction is to high even in this cofiguration so my needle rotated just a couple of times when the thread started to tighten up. I used very small magnets for the hook, with justhe enough force to hold the weight and it still was to stiff to rotate the needle. Stronger magnets attract the needle more crating more friction for the system.

[TinselKoala]

I have not done control experiments yet but I made sure my fresh thread was oriented in such a way as for unwinding would occur clockwise.

Really? And how did you arrange this orientation? Thread from every spool in my sewing box unwinds CCW as viewed in the experimental setup, I've tested a dozen or so from different sources and brands, and no amount of "orienting" changes that. Do you think flipping the thread over so that the bottom is now at the top changes the direction of twist?

My magnets spin counter clockwise (northern hemisphere) so my thread is getting tighter to the point it starts coiling up. The force acting here is minute but it is there. I made another variant with a needle hooked up to a magnet stack, like in TK's last video but I noticed that the friction is to high even in this cofiguration so my needle rotated just a couple of times when the thread started to tighten up. I used very small magnets for the hook, with justhe enough force to hold the weight and it still was to stiff to rotate the needle. Stronger magnets attract the needle more crating more friction for the system.

Your results are at variance with mine in several ways. I would like to know what happens when you use a simple weight instead of magnets, and I would also like some confirmation as to the direction of twist in your threads. And of course you should also try an untwisted single fiber like fine fishing line as well.

[kEhYo77]

@All

Just double checked everything and I conclude that the thread is doing the magic!
It is untwisting under the weight of magnets. :/ So no frills this time around...

Today I used a very thin solid wire from a small transformer primary (looks thinner than a hair, barely visible)
and the effect was GONE.

I am going back to my BiTT/JLN/AKULA replication, lots of winding left...

[TinselKoala]

Thank you for being persistent and not jumping to conclusions based on partial data! I still think you should also try it with a non-magnetic weight and a bit of the original thread, just for completeness and peace of mind...

[PhysicsProf]

@All

Just double checked everything and I conclude that the thread is doing the magic!
It is untwisting under the weight of magnets. :/ So no frills this time around...

Today I used a very thin solid wire from a small transformer primary (looks thinner than a hair, barely visible)
and the effect was GONE.

I am going back to my BiTT/JLN/AKULA replication, lots of winding left...

Thanks for using monofilament and for your report back. 

I'm interested in your BiTT/JLN/AKULA replication - pls tell us more as you have time (in another thread perhaps).

[JimBoot]

A new video from Ed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fs35DLgTYs

[TinselKoala]

"Contribution to Humanity"....  rotating magnets past a coil ... what a concept!

That's hilarious! Try unplugging the Levitron and see how well it works then...