3 battery generating system - intriguing results

[PhysicsProf]

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/10610-3-battery-generating-system-53.html#post217626  
Thanks to Chet for calling my attention to this thread.

Thread at EF started in Feb 2012 by Turion, and there appears this intriguing replication by "LutherG":

Hi Guys,

Ok - the videos are now public. Here are the links in one handy place:

First recording of the system:

VID-20120216-00002.3GP - YouTube [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzq7RYsL2Co ]

The smoking glove:

The Smoking Glove.3GP - YouTube


Cheers,

Luther

And this post from "Turion" on 9 Dec 2012:
The only two things I want to be clear on here is that I have seen this setup continuously run (for 7 days on end, both day and night) loads off the inverter that far, far, far exceed the 180% output of two 18 amp hour batteries. Second, I put 18 discharged batteries in parallel with battery three, and it charged them up in less than an hour. So it is capable of large amounts of power in a short period of time, provided it is batteries you are trying to charge. And I know that two 18 amp hour batteries ....even at 180% of capacity...did not contain near what is necessary to charge up 18 (actually 18 pairs of six volt batteries) that were over 100 amp hours each. Just those two incidents that I was a personal witness to indicate to me that there is something more to this.

HOWEVER, I will be happy just to get the free use of an electric motor out of the setup that can hook to a generator, as I believe most people would.

I can also say from personal experience that when you get a setup that is causing your primaries to go up, it seems to raise the voltage limits on the primary batteries

I would conclude with this...

Until we replicate what I saw with my original setup, we have what we have. We should develop what we know works to its fullest potential no matter what path it takes us down, and if you are traveling that road I will be right beside you. But that doesn't mean I won't take weekends off to research the original circuit until I replicate the results I saw with my first setup. I saw what I saw, and nothing will ever convince me that I did not. I realize that until someone else, or possibly MANY someone else's see it too, I am to be considered full of hot air, and I can live with that. This is too important to let feelings get in the way of results.

Dave

I don't yet understand this...  curious...  Any comments??

[PhysicsProf]

  I'm reading through the 50+ page thread at EF.  Very interesting.

Mbrownn -- I see you posted on the thread back in Feb 2012.  Have you kept up with this 3-battery+motor system?  In any case, what do you think of it?

[PhysicsProf]

The latest, today on the EF thread:, post 1594 by David Bowling (nice guy):

Guys,

Folks send me emails all the time about what they are doing with this setup. Today I got one that is most interesting and he asked that I not reveal his name, but wanted to share his results. He has been running the setup for FOUR DAYS (off and on) so far, and the primaries continue to charge whenever it is running, which is a good sign. What is different is that he is using a cap and NO bad battery, and still getting the primaries to INCREASE in voltage whenever it is running. Schematic attached.

MJN,
That's what we've been saying. The motor acts as a generator, but it is BECAUSE of battery three that it does so. And you have to have the load on the motor balanced with the load on the bad battery. This is all in my very first post. When you get the two in what I have been calling "the zone" which basically means they are tuned to each other, you can get the primaries to charge....right up until there is too much charge in batt three and then it all goes sideways.

[/b]

[mbrownn]

Yes, David is a nice guy in my opinion.

There is no doubt that there is some anomalous results using this system, very early in this thread I suggested an explanation as to how it works and it is a battery phenomenon I believe. If there is another mysterious current running in the opposite direction that does not oppose the normal current, I don't know, but they seem to have based their hypothesis on this. Truthfully I have not been following the thread that much because when I do post someone seams to take exception.

This is my first reaction http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/10610-3-battery-generating-system-2.html#post181666

This is a revision after posted scope shots showed what is happening. http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/10610-3-battery-generating-system-5.html#post182488 When you first load a lead acid battery, provided the drain is not too high, the voltage can rise.The backspikes from a simple motor, in my opinion, cause this voltage to rise further. Provided current draw does not cause the voltage on the source to drop below the voltage rise caused by the spikes, the source remains in a charging condition while still providing current. The capacitive effect of the dead battery can indeed reinforce the backspike.

It has been noted before that a lead acid battery will charge on a reduced amount of joules if it is pulsed, less joules in fact than what is found when the battery is drained.

This is how the overunity effect in the fettuccine and similar circuits work. It is an anomalous charging effect and not anything to do with any other explanation. The source of the energy in the anomaly would suggest an open circuit and could be explained by the radiant energy principal.

This device is exploiting this effect in batteries and so requires a battery as the source. The overunity could be real.

[PhysicsProf]

Thanks for the reply, Michael.

"It has been noted before that a lead acid battery will charge on a reduced amount of joules if it is pulsed, less joules in fact than what is found when the battery is drained.

This is how the overunity effect in the fettuccine and similar circuits work. It is an anomalous charging effect and not anything to do with any other explanation."

Very interesting.  I wonder if you can explain how you would EFFICIENTLY provide  pulsed DC  -- so as to charge a battery with ou-efficiency? 
One thought that comes to mind (brainstorming) is to simply take mains AC through a diode, which gives pulsed DC, then dump that onto about 9 batteries sitting discharged to say 12V each -- IN SERIES...  Such that each battery gets around 14V DC, in pulses.  9X14V = 126V...   Don't know if that makes sense or if such a crazy idea would work at all... 

[mbrownn]

The pulses have to be short and sharp, spikes or square wave with a relaxation time in between each pulse. JB has stated this several times, the overunity is in the battery. the pulses have to be around 2v above the battery voltage.

The effective devices for this have been the SG circuits, joule thief, stingo etc The SG actually showed that it was not the high frequency and was indeed these sharp pulses. It works with cap pulsing the batteries too although not quite as well as direct from an inductor

Think of each pulse shocking the battery, a bit like tapping something with a hammer.

The analogy is that you cannot push a large heavy weight across a floor but by tapping it with a hammer you can make it move across the floor

Using the mechanical example it is like we have a level of friction but once the initial friction is overcome the friction reduces so it may take 1 joule to get it moving but once moving it covers the distance that 2 joules would have moved it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiction this is the mechanical analogy

[mbrownn]

Of course I could be wrong but the fact that the 3 battery system works only with batteries tells us that the battery is where it is happening.

The other analogy is the two steps forward and one step back. the backward motion being the current through the motor.

All we have to do is provide the conditions for the battery to charge and it will charge, we don't have to put current through it. Raise the potential and it will charge without current flow

Force is a potential that only manifests as energy when it acts upon something by moving it. Is electricity the same?

Could charge be a force that manifests as energy when it acts upon an electron?

Now think of this, spin a billiard ball on a table then tap it with a small hammer, it moves across the table with the same energy as the size of the tap plus the loss of angular momentum lost from the ball. Is this the action in the battery? We have conserved energy but created the movement bigger than our input. We believe that electrons spin so this is a possible mechanism? Of course the electrons are supposed to spin at a constant rate so they must get their energy from somewhere as we do not provide it. Is this what Tesla meant when he said we could tap into the wheel work of nature?

Deep stuff

[Allcanadian]

@PhysicsProf

Very interesting.  I wonder if you can explain how you would EFFICIENTLY provide  pulsed DC  -- so as to charge a battery with ou-efficiency? 
One thought that comes to mind (brainstorming) is to simply take mains AC through a diode, which gives pulsed DC, then dump that onto about 9 batteries sitting discharged to say 12V each -- IN SERIES...  Such that each battery gets around 14V DC, in pulses.  9X14V = 126V...   Don't know if that makes sense or if such a crazy idea would work at all... 

As always the devil is in the details, for instance did you know that if we try to charge an empty capacitor from a voltage source such as another capacitor, battery or generator you will always lose 1/2 the energy. In fact if there is any series resistance regardless of it's value we still lose half either in the resistor or in the wire or a combination of both due to I2R losses. As such the most efficient way I have found to charge a voltage source such as a capacitor or battery is to use a switched inductance with extremely fast rise and fall times well below the saturation of the inductor. I have a simple rule -- nothing moves unless it moves LC to minimize losses.

On a side note, the only place in nature you will find heavy current flow is when something is radically out of balance and it would seem sending large currents through small conductive paths is solely a man made contrivance, it is inefficient, un-natural and maybe it is our thinking which is out of balance.
AC

[mbrownn]

Exactly, this is why capacitors are not a good replacement for a battery. In my opinion, the LC circuit is more efficient because the second half of the energy going into the capacitor is inductive kickback, which is current and potential freely supplied by the inductor. You still have 50% losses but you have double the power of the input.

[Slider2732]

JB has indeed inferred that all the magic happens in the battery and is why many folks, including myself, haveve spent the last couple of years building different types with different chemistries.

An experiment here may link to the strange effects - after 2 1/2 months, a Vinnic alkaline battery lost its 24/7 LED oscillator running ability - it was charged for just 1 minute, from 0.01V using a version of Lasersabers SJR 3.0. An LED oscillator is no load, but it is to a rusted out ancient dead alkaline. The oscillator starts up seemingly at random now, every now and again for a few minutes or hours.
Latest video shows it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WB2m72dNn78

Here's how I see this....
Yes, as Mike says, it's the short sharp pulses.
Those pulses have to go into the battery between loading of it through a load - everyone seems to think that the pulses need therefore to be timed, with electronics. 
A collapsing field, within a motor or an oscillator circuit is going to produce that back feed to the battery.
It doesn't matter if there are diodes in the way or other smoothing stages..this energy doesn't see them.
In wall adapter powered Tesla tower experiments, you can pick up a wireless field right up to the wall socket itself, through and past any circuit area, straight through and past the wall adapter. The field can be detected right up to the wall plug.

In the 3 battery circuit, people are often mentioning a sweet spot of impedance balance. Yes, where nothing is fighting anything else...the system kick kick kicks, returning the collapsing field energy back along and into the batteries.
With LAB's such a system shows anomalous results, but may be expected to shorten the lifetime of the batteries. Other systems using the same technique, say by the use of Alum, Epsom salts, whatever works, may last longer.
In tiny < 1.5V circuits the effect is there, but the losses govern efficiency. Something radical has to happen to conventional equipment to make it behave differently. In the Vinnic battery case, that was a 1 minute charging by a comparatively massive output of 'radiant energy'.

A lead acid battery will have its Positive plates crumble after several years, but the Negative's are always in nearly perfect shape.
Is this why such batteries often don't last with the exotic closed loop chargings ? the Positives crumble ?
Has anyone taken such batteries apart to have a look ?
I'm a fan of C/Pb, the cell in the video above runs just like a lead acid, yet is homemade and has the feature of the carbon being the Positive terminal. By being such, there's no lead to crumble. Electrolyte is distilled water and Epsom salts.
(it was built after finding a lead wheel weight on the road one day and having just pulled apart another very rusted up zinc carbon battery. I put the 2 together and used Epsom salts, just to see if it would do anything).

If I can find another carbon electrode i'll make another same cell and run these with a collapsing field load, either a small motor or blocking oscillator

Got a tornado watch here at the moment, so will have to post now, sorry if any errors

[mbrownn]

Yes, as Mike says, it's the short sharp pulses.
Those pulses have to go into the battery between loading of it through a load - everyone seems to think that the pulses need therefore to be timed, with electronics. 
A collapsing field, within a motor or an oscillator circuit is going to produce that back feed to the battery.

Agreed

It doesn't matter if there are diodes in the way or other smoothing stages..this energy doesn't see them.
In wall adapter powered Tesla tower experiments, you can pick up a wireless field right up to the wall socket itself, through and past any circuit area, straight through and past the wall adapter. The field can be detected right up to the wall plug.

I can't comment on this really as I don't know and haven't tested anything like this although my gut feeling is a diode should not let it happen. On my quick 3BGS test I did see the spikes on the source battery which would suggest my gut feeling is wrong.

In the 3 battery circuit, people are often mentioning a sweet spot of impedance balance. Yes, where nothing is fighting anything else...the system kick kick kicks, returning the collapsing field energy back along and into the batteries.

I suspect this will be key although some have suggested that this isn't the case.

With LAB's such a system shows anomalous results, but may be expected to shorten the lifetime of the batteries.

Definitely in my opinion.

Other systems using the same technique, say by the use of Alum, Epsom salts, whatever works, may last longer.
In tiny < 1.5V circuits the effect is t
here, but the losses govern efficiency. Something radical has to happen to conventional equipment to make it behave differently. In the Vinnic battery case, that was a 1 minute charging by a comparatively massive output of 'radiant energy'.

I don't know about this so cant comment

A lead acid battery will have its Positive plates crumble after several years, but the Negative's are always in nearly perfect shape.
Is this why such batteries often don't last with the exotic closed loop chargings ? the Positives crumble ?
Has anyone taken such batteries apart to have a look ?

Yes, I have done it, the plates do crumble and go spongy too. I have even noticed this cycling batteries on a Linguini charger. Matt has also noted this with other research he has done.

Got a tornado watch here at the moment, so will have to post now, sorry if any errors

Hope you are not blown away, we just had a typhoon and my friends house was reduced to a concrete slab base. The concrete walls, roof, everything gone in the storm surge. He is OK though, all the expats chipped in to build him a new place.

What is going on on the energetic forum at the moment is a disgrace. They are discrediting all the work that has been done, both these protagonists have done great work but their egos will turn people away. Don't say it is eccentric genius, it isn't. It is nasty arrogance. I have had debates with both of them, UFO will respond to polite conversation, even when you disagree with him but will act like a ....... ( I wont go there) if you confront him in a less than polite way. unfortunately Matt does not but resorts to what you can see. Logic and reason goes out of the window.

Don't let this put you off as I believe there is something in it. I believe it is a battery phenomenon exploited by the way motors work and once a motor is designed to produce the right conditions it will work better. The downside slider has accurately pointed out above, so it isn't the solution they think it is but well worth serious investigation.

[Centraflow]

I did do an extensive weekend of tests on this and what I found was the back end drive battery would go negative. I did show a video of this happening, I think I still have it on my computer but I removed it from youtube. After an hour or so of rest time that back end battery would jump back to a positive charge.

This all led me to what was happening in that third battery, so I connected a salt bridge as part of that third battery so as I could see with my eyes the ionic movement. The result was a very strange circular movement between the plates, more needed to be done but as  mbrownn said things started to get a little OTT and paranoid, so time to move on.

Mike

[Chet K]

Perhaps undestanding what  type input would cause a chill like this?
Duncan
Quote,

Hi Matthew to be quite honest with you this is leaving me a bit stunned at the moment , I've never seen a battery frost up before and although there might be some logical explanation as to why the motors speeding up as load is added Its certainly escaping me at the moment.
It seems to automatically re-gauge its self some how. Also changing the batteries around every so often you seem able to keep the batteries at a higher voltage than you actually started with.
I know that's not a measure of power gain however Its not what I expected to happen at all.
I know you and David have said all along that given the right conditions the unexpected happens with this circuit I just didn't expect it to be that dramatic or pronounced. Its going to take me a little while to get some sort of grasp of this at any level Matt, Just at the moment I don't really believe what's happening in front of my eyes. I start to see why you and David have kept after it with determination
---------------------------------------
From here
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/10610-3-battery-generating-system-53.html#post217626

Thx
Chet

[mbrownn]

The cooling effect could be one of two possibilities

1) endothermic chemical reaction. Some chemical reactions absorb heat energy from the environment.

2) direct conversion of heat energy to something else.

The former is the most likely explanation although it is perfectly possible to convert one type of energy to another. All true forms of energy are radiant in nature, that is they will pass across a vacuum and do not require media.

The first obvious step is to eliminate endothermic reactions so a full chemical analysis of battery chemistry under the charging conditions must be done

[Centraflow]

Here is my possible way to do this, needs trying

Mike