Horvath Patents and Improved Electrolysis Efficiency

[Verpies]

We all know that you can charge a dielectric, glass or ebonite by rubbing them.
Is it possible to charge a  volume of gas?  And how will its pressure change if this gas Will be  in a closed volume?

Corona discharge is effective in ionizing gasses.
It is also known to increase their pressure.

[sergh]

I also noticed that gas evolution decreases as the AC frequency increases but the potassium hydroxide electrolyte was much more forgiving of frequency than salt.

Yes, I also use potassium or sodium hydroxide in small concentrations in my experiments.
Potassium hydroxide (KOH) can generally show slightly higher efficiency at low-frequency AC compared to salt (NaCl) for several reasons:

Higher Ionic Conductivity: KOH solutions generally offer high ionic conductivity, which reduces ohmic losses and allows the system to reach the "critical current density" required for gas evolution more easily, even during low-frequency AC pulses.

Lower Overpotential: KOH has a lower activation overpotential for the oxygen and hydrogen evolution compared to salt, meaning chemical reactions can initiate faster within each AC cycle.

Ion Activity: The specific activity of the potassium ion  in alkaline media is often cited as more effective for hydrogen production than sodium ions in common salts.

In principle, it seems to me that almost the same thing can be achieved with a solution of ordinary baking soda.


But surprisingly, distilled and even deionized water can be used to effectively produce hydrogen...
I'm sure many of you have seen advertisements about the health benefits of drinking hydrogen water.
I doubt it's beneficial, but the hydrogen in the bottle on my desk produces bubbles that glow beautifully under the RGB LED lights.   

Distilled and deionized water can be used in modern hydrogen bottles because they utilize solid polymer electrolyte PEM (Proton Exchange Membrane) technology.

Unlike older electrolysis methods that require solution of electrolytes in the water to conduct electricity, PEM use a solid polymer membrane that acts as the electrolyte itself. This allows the device to split even the purest water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen without needing dissolved ions for conductivity. Using distilled or deionized water offers several advantages:- pure water prevents mineral scale from building up on the electrodes and membrane, which significantly extends the bottle's lifespan.

But there's a problem: these membranes are primarily produced by one company, Nafion, and for some reason they're expensive.

Graphite powder electrodes—the cathode and anode—are formed directly on the membrane; a platinum catalyst must be added to the graphite powder. The binding component for this is also produced by Nafion.

Oxygen is released from the reverse side of the membrane, which is relatively dry; water doesn't leak out, or leaks in small amounts, so only pure hydrogen ends up in the water in the bottle.

You can learn more about this technology from test reviews of hydrogen bottles on YouTube.

[chief kolbacict]

What if you blow an ionized, conductive gas into a Rank-Hilsch tube?
After that, gas could be rotating increase by outside coil .
Cold plasmas do exist after all.

[Verpies]

What if you blow an ionized, conductive gas into a Rank-Hilsch tube?

Me thinks you'd get a hot and cold gas out of the tube.

After that, gas could be rotating increase by outside coil .

What kind of coil?  Drawing please.

P.S.
Please correct the grammar of your last sentence.  It is not clear as it is.

[chief kolbacict]

P.S.
Please correct the grammar of your last sentence.  It is not clear as it is.

Well, so the external magnetic field interacts with the conductive plasma, increasing the speed of its rotation. I still don't know how.
In this case, the division of products into hot and cold may be higher. I think...
All sorts of nonsense just comes into my head...

[Chet K]

What if you blow an ionized, conductive gas into a Rank-Hilsch tube?
After that, gas could be rotating increase by outside coil .
Cold plasmas do exist after all.

Chief
This cold plasma's and Rank-Hilsch tube (GEET ( *David Pantone did ring me yesterday ))

Also Recently "plasmoids" are in many FE discussions ( GEET >pantone ,Thor Reactor> Malcolm Bendal/Martin Fleischmann memorial project and George Egely's plasmoid LENR claims .

George and others point to biological LENR ( "cold plasma"?)
In our bodies (" known for 200 plus years") and plants also capable of transmutation??)

Absolutely something we can experiment with ...

Yesterday I started disassembly of old projects for bits and pieces to replicate Verpies "electrodeless" hydrogen/oxygen gas production experiments.

[chief kolbacict]

It is also known to increase their pressure.

And what pressure can be achieved?
And will adiabatic heat being released ?

[Verpies]

And what pressure can be achieved?

I don't know.

And will adiabatic heat being released ?

The problem is that when magnetic fields interact with electrically charged particles then oppositely charged particles are accelerated in opposite directions.
So if your ionized gas has both positive and negative particles then they will accelerate in opposite directions under the influence of the magnetic field.
If your ionized gas contains only one polarity of particles (e.g.: positive ions) then their acceleration (and motion) will be unidirectional.

Oppositely accelerated particles will move/swirl in opposite directions and the streams will collide head-on and recombine.

[sergh]

Converting non-flammable carbon dioxide into fuel using only electrical discharges is similar to splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen.
However, this process is not very efficient; see the video.

CO2 conversion by plasma:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqLChJmza2k

[chief kolbacict]

Why, if in an electrolyzer between two electrodes,we begin the electrolyte  move away from the electrode, for example, with a pump.
Ions move slowly. The electrolyte will move faster. The ions will never reach the electrode. Electrical current must stop.
But something tells me that this will not happen.

[Itsu]

Chief
This cold plasma's and Rank-Hilsch tube (GEET ( *David Pantone did ring me yesterday ))

Also Recently "plasmoids" are in many FE discussions ( GEET >pantone ,Thor Reactor> Malcolm Bendal/Martin Fleischmann memorial project and George Egely's plasmoid LENR claims .

George and others point to biological LENR ( "cold plasma"?)
In our bodies (" known for 200 plus years") and plants also capable of transmutation??)

Absolutely something we can experiment with ...

Yesterday I started disassembly of old projects for bits and pieces to replicate Verpies "electrodeless" hydrogen/oxygen gas production experiments.

Chet,

Yesterday I started disassembly of old projects for bits and pieces to replicate Verpies "electrodeless" hydrogen/oxygen gas production experiments.

Per our conversation, here is a picture of my Mazilli /ZVS setup for this "electrodeless" hydrogen/oxygen gas production experiment.

White 3D printed loop filled with NaCl or NaHo placed as secondary inside this ferrite ring.

Frequency of the mazilli was around 21kHz, but no effect was noticed (ferrite got warm though)

I could not get the DC resistance of the mixture below 15kOhm which could be one of the problems or the used frequency.

Itsu

[Verpies]

Brine has the resistivity of 4.35 Ω·cm.
So the brine in a 10cm long pipe with 1cm inner diameter should have the resistance of 55.4 Ω
If the pipe is 20cm long then the resistance of the brine in it would double to 110.8Ω.

The 15kΩ resistance is three orders of magnitude off. Maybe the concentration is low or the pipe has a narrowing inside (a common fault of 3D printed inner features).
Temperature affects the resistivity of the brine, too, so you can use 5 Ω·cm as a ball park figure.

Potassium Hydroxide (KOH) is a better electrolyte because it does not evolve chlorine gas and its conductivity peaks at 26% w/w concentration at 1.60 Ω·cm.
Note that the conductivity of KOH peaks at 26% and becomes worse at higher concentrations (the opposite of brine behavior).

[Itsu]

Thanks verpies,

the 3D printed loop (petg) is unobstructed inside, as a piece of RG58 coax can be inserted all the way (40cm) without problem.

The inside diameter of the loop is 1cm.

I mix the NaCl first in a plastic cup and measure the mix with my Fluke DMM in Ohms mode using demin water (probes about 5cm apart), but it starts from say 130kOhm, and it will never get lower than 15kOhm or so no matter how much salt i add.

I have some KOH on order, so i will try it again using that mix.

[Itsu]

I got my KOH to mix in with demin water, but the best i could get was about 9.2 Ohm/cm measured using an analog meter in x1 Ohm mode.

I tried again with my mazilli, but could not see any effect, see video: https://youtu.be/YokobL1N354

Itsu

[Verpies]

I get electrolysis at 50Hz but only with technical grade KOH.  The A.C.S. grade does not perform well, which is not something I expected.

[Grumage]

Hi Guys.
Do you recall an electrolyte that Mike concocted for his SMD system? Pretty sure it  used Acetic acid with de-min water and an Alkali?

Sorry to interrupt... Graham.

[Itsu]

Correct Graham, "sodium acetate, a mixture of NaOH and white vinigar at saturation".



I was able to get 1.6 Ohm/cm with my KOH / Demin water mixture using a different measurement method, but it did not do anything using my Mazilli as shown earlier.

Probably the frequency of the mazilli is too high.

Itsu

[Itsu]

Still playing with my 3D printed loop-tube and the KOH mix (1.6 Ohm/cm) now using a Nanocrystalline C-core.

There is a primary coil attached to a variac connected to the 240V / 50Hz mains and the loop-tube as a secondary filled with the KOH mix.

Monitoring the AC voltage and current (max 4A @ 68V AC) and the temperature of the primary (31 degrees C), but no gas has been seen coming from the tube at the moment, video here: https://youtu.be/wQ_EO__9uds

Itsu

[sergh]

Electrolysis can be performed without alkali (KOH, etc.).
It's sufficient to use a PEM membrane coated with a carbon layer and a platinum catalyst, as is done in modern hydrogen bottles or high-efficiency electrolyzers. In this case, the proton exchange membrane itself functions as a solid electrolyte.

Using distilled water in a hydrogen bottle is highly recommended to maximize performance and protect the device from mineral buildup. The Proton Exchange Membrane (PEM)/Solid Polymer Electrolysis (SPE) technology works best with pure water, ensuring high-concentration hydrogen infusion (up to 3000ppb) without damaging the electrode plates.

https://img.kwcdn.com/product/fancy/a23620c2-f735-45a2-985c-ebd544539c3d.jpg

However, there are also more efficient devices that can also operate on pure distilled water:

GT-A060 60ML Electrolytic Cell Module PEM Hydrogen Generator for Pure Water and Distilled Water

Specification:
- Model: GT-A060
- Hydrogen yield: 60 ± 5ml/min
- Working medium: pure water or distilled water, TDS < 5ppm
- Input water pressure: <0.2MPa
- Output pressure: 1.0MPa
- Water supply: water tank - module cycle between the water supply, water level difference needs to be more than 15cm
- Product size: 73 x 56 x 50mm
- Mounting hole size: 4 x M4
- Inlet and outlet diameter: 1/4 inch quick connector
- Power supply type: constant current power supply
- Input voltage: DC3.5 - 5V
- Input Current: 8 - 9A
- Surface temperature: <60℃
- Suggested hydrogen water flow rate: 500 - 700ml/min

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=GT-A060&_sop=15

[Grumage]

Hi Itsu.
Are you trying to evolve gas by electromagnetic stimulation? 

Have you thought about winding a single turn of clear Silicone tubing around the core? You would be able to see bubble formation instantly.

Obviously I'm not involved with this project but can the core be driven by a good quality audio amplifier so that the entire audio frequency range can be tried? I seem to recall MJN suggesting a certain frequency or a combination of two was advantageous??

Regards Graham.

[Itsu]

Hi Graham,

Are you trying to evolve gas by electromagnetic stimulation? 

It's called  "electrodeless" hydrogen/oxygen gas production in post #55 above 

Have you thought about winding a single turn of clear Silicone tubing around the core? You would be able to see bubble formation instantly.

It was mentioned somewhere yes,  not sure where, but i have this 3D printed (petg) loop tube, but a might need to change to clear Silicone tubing for better visibility 

Obviously I'm not involved with this project but can the core be driven by a good quality audio amplifier so that the entire audio frequency range can be tried? I seem to recall MJN suggesting a certain frequency or a combination of two was advantageous??

Good idea, i tried that with the mazilli core, but my FG driven audio amp did not like that (went in protection mode), so i need to use a better matched impedance transformer for that i guess, i will look into that.


Itsu

[Allcanadian]

Hi Itsu.
Are you trying to evolve gas by electromagnetic stimulation? 

Have you thought about winding a single turn of clear Silicone tubing around the core? You would be able to see bubble formation instantly.

Obviously I'm not involved with this project but can the core be driven by a good quality audio amplifier so that the entire audio frequency range can be tried? I seem to recall MJN suggesting a certain frequency or a combination of two was advantageous??

Regards Graham.

This reminds me of the Tesla hairpin circuit or Lecher line. In Tesla's lecture and patents on medical devices he describes wavelengths as short as 1cm. He also describes how the max (+) and (-) potential fall at one half the wavelength demonstrated with a light bulb. As such it sounds reasonable that we could induce a difference in potential across two plates with close spacing. The medium may change but the principal remains.

"At high frequencies, voltage and current don't behave "lumped" anymore—they form standing waves along the wires. Lecher lines let you see and measure that."

This guy demonstrates that the hairpin circuit works exactly as Tesla claimed.
https://waveguide.blog/tesla-hairpin-circuit-stout-copper-bars-replication/