Gauging the credibility of OU claims/systems/models

[Reiyuki]

This is more of an abstract thread to discuss the credibility of various models and inventions that pass by the forums from time-to-time.

How should we judge the credibility of a system or claim when it is presented online?  We have to acknowledge that many different things affect this:

* Process is explained simply.
* Process is explained several different ways.
* Process is engineerable.
* Process doesn't require hard-to-find tools or materials.
* The parameters and limits to the process are well defined.
* Process can be explained in great detail.
* Process has a conceptual or mathematical proof attached to it.
* Process is consistent with other credible devices online.

And beneath all of that:
* Device is constructed to demonstrate the process.
(this is a relatively low-credibility action because anything can be faked online)

Ideally, a person trying to convey a concept to other tinkerers would focus on increasing their credibility in all of these fields and not just show a video of a motor spinning.


There are a few situations where the above points will break down:
- A person can build a working device but doesn't quite understand *how* it works.
- A person has a good theoretical OU model that is consistent, but presents no engineerable solutions.
- A language/vocabulary/teaching barrier prevents person's words from being correctly understood by others.


IMO these are just some things we should be aware of when evaluating systems online.
Feel free to add/comment in regards to this.

[PhysicsProf]

Good question.

I'm interested in experimental results based on operational devices.

1.  What is the actual measured input power and the output power?  COP based on actual data.

2.  Has the device been replicated, and what is the COP of the replication?

A one-off (not replicated) invention with an unrevealed "secret sauce" is of little use to humanity.

[muDped]

Reiyuki and PhysicsProf:

You've both raised some very excellent points.

To my way of thinking any process or device presented
as potentially producing Free Energy or Overunity should
be able to do so either small scale or large scale.

When the "inventor" insists that only Lead Acid Batteries
must be used, and further, that those batteries must be
BIG, then something is wrong.

Explanations of the process or device should also be
worded with appropriate and correct technical terminology.

[PhysicsProf]

Reiyuki and PhysicsProf:

You've both raised some very excellent points.

To my way of thinking any process or device presented
as potentially producing Free Energy or Overunity should
be able to do so either small scale or large scale.

When the "inventor" insists that only Lead Acid Batteries
must be used, and further, that those batteries must be
BIG, then something is wrong.

Explanations of the process or device should also be
worded with appropriate and correct technical terminology.

Good points. 
?  has anyone insisted that only big Lead Acid Batteries be used?

[Allcanadian]

When the "inventor" insists that only Lead Acid Batteries
must be used, and further, that those batteries must be
BIG, then something is wrong.

Wrong as it were relates solely to the observer and there beliefs at the time of the observation and whether they understand what they are seeing/experiencing or not.

For example I have used a BIG 12 volt battery, charging both the (+) and (-) plates simultaneously to around 500 kV, in the same way some use the top load capacitance of a Tesla coil. As such if you were to touch either terminal of the battery you would know something is wrong when you woke up on the floor. Do you understand my friend?, I charged the total mass of all the plates to one very high potential acting exactly like a very large metal sphere covered in a layer of plastic which is the battery case.

As such what is "wrong" is your false assertion and a failure to imagine all the possible ways in which one could use a large battery or bank of them. This is why I am an Engineer and I think about stuff before passing judgement. The trick here is resisting the temptation to start making assumptions about anything without knowing all the facts. I would suspect you and many others more skilled in the art had literally no idea one could use a large battery or bank of them in the same way as a top load... did you?.

Now suppose we had two large 12v batteries in series to produce a potential difference of 24v. Then we would use the 24v to pulse/induce an isolated HV transformer with a secondary of some 500 kV not unlike a Tesla coil. We would then rectify the HV output to a DC output with one terminal to ground and the other through a diode network to both the (+) and (-) plates of all the batteries.

Which begs the question... what is the voltage of the batteries?.
You see each battery is 12v and the series voltage of both batteries is 24v however the voltage on any battery terminal is around 500 kV with respect to ground and variable with respect to any given object in contact with any terminal dependent on the resistance and surface area.

To be honest I get a real kick out of this kind of thing because first it's stupid simple and second the majority of people I have demonstrated this simple circuit to including many Electrical Engineers are completely dumbfounded by it. They should know better in my opinion, they should fall back on there observations and apply logic and reason but they do not. They let there emotions and imagination or lack of it and beliefs overrule what should be there better judgement.

That is the thing isn't it?, either we have the intelligence to understand what we are seeing and the possibilities regarding what is happening or we do not. However making arguments from ignorance is not the way forward.

[muDped]

So you're using the battery bank as a Capacitance at
the bottom end rather than the top?

What does the circuit actually do?  It sounds like you're
describing a Tesla Coil slightly re-arranged.

Are the battery cases themselves insulated from
Ground in order to withstand the very high voltage?

There is not getting around the fact that High Voltage
is awesome.

[Allcanadian]

muDped

So you're using the battery bank as a Capacitance at
the bottom end rather than the top?

Close... I use the battery bank as one plate of a capacitor and the ground as the other plate. As well we can use two batteries or banks of them and then each bank becomes one plate of a HV capacitor. Capacitance energy storage is dependent on Potential Difference and the Surface Area thus size does matter and bigger is better. Therefor small batteries do not work nearly as well.

What does the circuit actually do?  It sounds like you're
describing a Tesla Coil slightly re-arranged.

It's no different than attaching one end of a HV coil to both the (+) and (-) terminals of a battery. Now all the battery plates will hold a surface charge for use elsewhere. I understand it's very difficult to visualize or even comprehend which is why nobody ever thought to try it but I was curious if it would and it works.

Are the battery cases themselves insulated from
Ground in order to withstand the very high voltage?

Yes the batteries should rest on plastic or foam insulation and I have seen my plastic case sparking to the concrete floor in the past. Do you know where I got the idea to try this setup?. I read John.B talking about how sometimes a spark would jump from the plastic battery case to his finger... what the hell?. Now do the math, rationalize the problem, think it through... how and why would the case be charged?, from what, from where?.

You see a million people could read about a strange phenomena however few if any ever act on it. They seem to lack curiosity and the ability to follow through to try and understand what is really happening. This is what real science is all about in my opinion and I wanted to post about this phenomena as an example so people understand what there missing.

Nobody is going to solve the Free Energy riddle by pretending it's all the same-same thing and nothing out of the ordinary is happening. The premise is that something extra-ordinary is happening, something we did not consider, something we have missed. Thus every little detail does matter, it matters more than anything else in my opinion. Which is why when I hear something or read something that peaks my curiosity I hit the bench to see whats going on.