Extra energy in a capacitor

Author Topic: Extra energy in a capacitor (Read 4813 times)

Topic Options

Hakasays

Re: Extra energy in a capacitor « Reply #25 on: 2022-08-18, 14:37:49 »

Hero Member

Posts: 603

Quote from: Grumpy on 2022-08-18, 02:25:49

My suggestion is to apply a high voltage unidirectional impulse to an air coil of very high self-impedance and then look for a charging effect from the longitudinal wave that is produced. You will find that there is no magnetic field with this wave.

A good open-frame Tesla Extra Coil will have series resonance around 60-200 ohms and a parallel resonance anywhere from 20-90+ kiloOhms (measured with VNA). At resonance the dielectric component tends to congregate on the free end and the magnetic component on the drive end (though there is some weird mixing on the drive end, possibly harmonics).

Quote

Tesla claimed to have measured their velocity at 1.5c. There are many, many papers end experiments if you look for them.

Nikola Tesla, Eric Dollard, and Charles Wheatstone all reported results approaching ~1.57c in this mode.
When I perform the test I plan on using a pair of GPS-disciplined receivers. They create 1pps impulses that are accurate to around ~100ns for single pulses and ~20ns over a long period. Easy to synchronize, as long as you can pick up a good signal on the Rx end. Also saves on several miles of wire

---------------------------

"An overly-skeptical scientist might hastily conclude by scooping-up and analyzing a thousand buckets of seawater that the ocean has no fish in it."

partzman	Re: Extra energy in a capacitor « Reply #26 on: 2022-09-09, 22:29:42 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2307	This has probably been seen by most here but if not, worthy of a look! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ckpQW9sdUg Pm

Grumpy	Re: Extra energy in a capacitor « Reply #27 on: 2022-09-10, 01:28:07 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 4265 tExB=qr	I wonder how vacuum capacitor performs...

Hakasays	Re: Extra energy in a capacitor « Reply #28 on: 2022-09-10, 03:47:50 »
Hero Member Posts: 603	Quote from: Grumpy on 2022-09-10, 01:28:07 I wonder how vacuum capacitor performs... --------------------------- "An overly-skeptical scientist might hastily conclude by scooping-up and analyzing a thousand buckets of seawater that the ocean has no fish in it."

F6FLT

Re: Extra energy in a capacitor « Reply #29 on: 2022-09-11, 10:08:52 »

Group: Professor
Hero Member

Posts: 2519

Quote from: Grumpy on 2022-09-10, 01:28:07

I wonder how vacuum capacitor performs...

Charge storage depends on the nature of the capacitor and is not unique.
A polarization of the dielectric and the accumulation of charges on the surface of the dielectric, as here with glass, is one. It is predominant in this type of capacitor.
If there is no dielectric, the charges appear only on the surface of the conductors and remain there. Proof:
If we move the two plates of a capacitor without dielectric apart after it is charged, decreasing C increases U because Q=C.U, and we can have an electric arc of discharge at a given moment, especially if we move the plates away along their own plane rather than moving them apart transversally, the first case allowing to reduce the capacity by keeping a smaller distance compatible with obtaining the arc.

---------------------------

"Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

Hakasays

Re: Extra energy in a capacitor « Reply #30 on: 2022-09-11, 16:52:37 »

Hero Member

Posts: 603

Proposed experiment to better determine if charge storage in a capacitor is maintained predominantly on the surface of the dielectric or throughout the entire dielectric.

Extra energy in a capacitor

TwoPlateExperiment.png (179.27 kB, 1182x1515 - viewed 345 times.)

---------------------------

"An overly-skeptical scientist might hastily conclude by scooping-up and analyzing a thousand buckets of seawater that the ocean has no fish in it."

F6FLT	Re: Extra energy in a capacitor « Reply #31 on: 2022-09-13, 06:53:06 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 2519	@hakasays This experiment should work and be conclusive on both hypotheses. Is it from you? --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

Hakasays

Re: Extra energy in a capacitor « Reply #32 on: 2022-09-13, 12:32:05 »

Hero Member

Posts: 603

Quote from: F6FLT on 2022-09-13, 06:53:06

@hakasays

This experiment should work and be conclusive on both hypotheses.
Is it from you?

Yes, it is my idea.
I may have time to bang together a quick test today as I'm interested as well.

---------------------------

"An overly-skeptical scientist might hastily conclude by scooping-up and analyzing a thousand buckets of seawater that the ocean has no fish in it."

F6FLT

Re: Extra energy in a capacitor « Reply #33 on: 2022-09-13, 14:19:20 »

Group: Professor
Hero Member

Posts: 2519

Quote from: Hakasays on 2022-09-13, 12:32:05

Yes, it is my idea.
I may have time to bang together a quick test today as I'm interested as well.

If the charges are mostly stored inside the dielectric, turning the two dielectric plates over should reverse the voltage, reducing it a little because the charges remaining on the metal plates will have an opposite field.
This is possible mainly with a ferro-electric dielectric, unlikely with glass.

If they are stored on the surface, you might even get an arc when they are put back together after reversal, and as you said the voltage should be much lower.

This is a "good" experiment: we have hypothetical predictions to check. It can be instructive if you do it.

---------------------------

"Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

Hakasays

Oh well, at least we tried « Reply #34 on: 2022-09-13, 21:45:28 »

Hero Member

Posts: 603

Attempted replication of the proposed capacitor experiment here: https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4324.msg100657#msg100657

I'm not sure if it is due to the type of glass or thickness or voltage or other factors, but the dual-plate capacitor test as currently staged is not able to store a charge nearly long enough to perform the test.
With the setup and spacing the wave quickly degrades within about 50ms with a scope probe, or about 200ms without. Similar results encountered with volt-meter and with an HV probe.

We'll have to envision a different setup, or use a different material to re-test the principle. I have plenty of polyethylene sheet, but did not have time to run it.

I'll be on the road for a while so will not have the ability to retest this until sometime in October.

Extra energy in a capacitor

Hakasays_CapacitorInversionExperiment_091322.jpg (230.11 kB, 800x740 - viewed 260 times.)

---------------------------

"An overly-skeptical scientist might hastily conclude by scooping-up and analyzing a thousand buckets of seawater that the ocean has no fish in it."

solarlab	Re: Extra energy in a capacitor « Reply #35 on: 2022-09-14, 04:30:25 »
Group: Restricted Sr. Member Posts: 423	Been a long while but some of the Leyden Jar experiments in school physics seemed similar.

Grumpy	Re: Extra energy in a capacitor « Reply #36 on: 2022-09-14, 04:44:43 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 4265 tExB=qr	Do you have a high impedance ohm meter? Like an old VTVM? I have a refurbished one that I use for an RE detector.

F6FLT

Re: Oh well, at least we tried « Reply #37 on: 2022-09-14, 11:03:18 »

Group: Professor
Hero Member

Posts: 2519

Quote from: Hakasays on 2022-09-13, 21:45:28

...
With the setup and spacing the wave quickly degrades within about 50ms with a scope probe, or about 200ms without. Similar results encountered with volt-meter and with an HV probe.
...

Is it the connection of the voltmeter that causes the voltage to drop, or the capacitor that loses its charge by itself?

---------------------------

"Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

Hakasays

Re: Oh well, at least we tried « Reply #38 on: 2022-09-14, 13:09:40 »

Hero Member

Posts: 603

Quote from: Grumpy on 2022-09-14, 04:44:43

Do you have a high impedance ohm meter?

Like an old VTVM?

My HV probe is IIRC 1g ohm, I do have an electrostatic fieldmeter but the open-circuit dissipation was so fast I didn't bother digging for it.
I think it's either the thickness or the type of glass causing it.

Quote from: F6FLT on 2022-09-14, 11:03:18

Is it the connection of the voltmeter that causes the voltage to drop, or the capacitor that loses its charge by itself?

Both. Sitting on the bench it seems to discharge within a second or two, but even faster with the probe.
I think it's the type of glass; must have a really high conductance.

---------------------------

"An overly-skeptical scientist might hastily conclude by scooping-up and analyzing a thousand buckets of seawater that the ocean has no fish in it."

F6FLT	Re: Oh well, at least we tried « Reply #39 on: 2022-09-14, 17:55:39 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 2519	Quote from: Hakasays on 2022-09-14, 13:09:40 ... I think it's the type of glass; must have a really high conductance. Agreed --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

Allcanadian

Re: Extra energy in a capacitor « Reply #40 on: 2022-09-14, 20:04:05 »

Group: Moderator
Hero Member

Posts: 3126

Hakasays
That's an interesting experiment which I believe has been done before.

I found most of the more modern/popular science websites google displays are repetitive and biased.

Better resources can be found by searching keywords such as "archive" or the subject, author followed by archive. More often than not this leads to the original work by the author not someones questionable opinion of it. The more credible work was done by Faraday, Ampere, Franklin, Tesla etc concerning Leyden jars, condensers now called capacitors.

Regards
AC

---------------------------

Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman

Allcanadian

Re: Extra energy in a capacitor « Reply #41 on: 2022-09-14, 20:27:43 »

Group: Moderator
Hero Member

Posts: 3126

Hakasays

Quote

Attempted replication of the proposed capacitor experiment here: https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4324.msg100657#msg100657

I'm not sure if it is due to the type of glass or thickness or voltage or other factors, but the dual-plate capacitor test as currently staged is not able to store a charge nearly long enough to perform the test.
With the setup and spacing the wave quickly degrades within about 50ms with a scope probe, or about 200ms without. Similar results encountered with volt-meter and with an HV probe.

There could be several issues I can see off hand...
-Any sharp edges on plates,dielectric and probes produce leakage.
-Your table and plastic stand are area's prone to leakage.
-One culprit most overlook is high relative humidity which will discharge any apparatus quickly.

One Van De Graaff generator I built had a lot of issues. Most of it was made from PVC which loves to absorb water from the air making it a good conductor at HV. I had to bake the PVC to remove the water then coat everything with epoxy then it worked well. Later I read Tesla mention this and air is a poor conductor but the water vapor it absorbs is an excellent conductor.

Regards
AC

---------------------------

Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman