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Author Topic: Sterling Allan going to So Africa to see OU device; seeks money  (Read 77239 times)

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Sourcing and receiving 50 amperes is not usually a problem with most 100 Ah batteries.

Again, this condition would only occur until they equalize. There is no danger of runaway. The source battery discharging and possibly heating up is a sort of self regulating process anyway. In the event it heats up and the terminal voltage tries to increase, the internal resistance will also increase, AND the current delivered will try to increase, but there will now be more drop across Rinternal, and the voltage will decrease again.

If you start with batteries that are of the same type (and model preferably) and relatively close state of charge, there should never be a problem.

.99


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Never let your belligerence get in the way of your brilliance!
   
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e2matrix:

Batteries are considered to be voltage sources and lead-acid batteries can have a very low output impedance, on the order of milliohms. By definition, you never connect voltage sources in parallel. Supposing that you have a freshly charged bank of four good batteries in series so the voltage is (4 x 12.6) = 50.4 volts. Supposing that you have another freshly charged bank of four good batteries in series. However, in this case because of natural variations in batteries the voltage on this bank happens to be 51.6 volts.  
 
So, what will happen when you connect a bank with a nominal voltage of 50.4 volts in parallel with another bank where the nominal voltage is 51.6 volts?  
 
The answer is that you will see voltage somewhere in between, say 51.0 volts. However, what you will not see, is that the bank with the higher voltage will be DISCHARGING into the bank with the lower voltage. Because the impedances of the battery banks are so low, the current could actually be very high, 10 or 20 or 50 amps.  
 
When you put two batteries in parallel, this is very unhealthy, they are voltage sources and they will "fight" with each other to try to maintain their own output voltage.  
 
With big lead-acid batteries, there is a potential for serious danger. The high discharge of current could cause the "stronger" bank to heat up, and that will make it's output voltage go even higher. That will cause even more current to flow, which will cause the batteries to get even hotter, etc. This has the potential to set up a positive feedback loop and both battery banks can spiral out of control in a form of "thermonuclear meltdown." It can be a very dangerous situation.  
 
In simple terms you should never connect any batteries in parallel, even AAA cells. There is a very simple way to correct for this situation for the example we are discussing here. It's simply to use big power diodes at the output of each set of batteries.  

I don't think the situation is that big of a deal.  I look at it this way. Let's say if rest voltage of the battery is 12.6V, then it is at 100% capacity.   So  what if the battery is at 12.9V ?  A depleted voltage of this battery is 11.7V .  Does this means 12.9V is at 133% capacity?  I think it is just fluffy voltage maybe 101% capacity? lol  So we have a bank of 100% capacity and 101% capacity.  It'll equalized at roughly 100.5% .  This is highly improbable for a thermonuclear meltdown. lol
   

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"spiral out of control in a form of "thermonuclear meltdown."

Wow!. I never knew that. Maybe a good way to get rid of a useless boss?

The only danger in connecting this way is when the 'connector' doesn't know what he is doing. Think of the circuit as two tanks of water side-by-side with a single valved pipe between them.

It is a self-regulating situation unless something is seriously wrong with one of the batteries.

I always tell folk to not make such connections. The reason is most folks can be idiots with even such a simple principle. I've connected hundreds of 4D to 8D battery sets together with no problems. Most of them are probably still connected and in use.
I believe an 8D battery weighs about 200lbs wet. Those are lead-acid.

I've done the same with 1-ton Edison gel-cell & NiCad types for computer center emergency power systems.

Connecting such batteries in parallel is no indication the battery user is a fool. It is an indication that he may be dangerous if he doesn't know what he is doing.




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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   
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It was not the best choice of words, "thermal runaway" and of course I don't actually do this stuff and have real world expertise like WaveWatcher.

On a theoretical level perhaps many people didn't see why it's wrong to put batteries in parallel and hopefully they do now.

On a practical level it still makes sense to use the diodes.  I get the feeling that solar cell and inverter system installations are the latest bandwagon. You have unskilled people that don't really know what they are doing and are just in it for the money.

A possible "thermal runnaway" situation would more accurately described like this:  It's not literally a positive-feedback thermal runnaway, but if you have a healthy bank of batteries discharging into an unhealthy bank of batteries and the batteries are large and in an enclosed space, the heat could build up to the boiling point and beyond.  Just like the World Trade Center fires.  With an extended quasi-short circuit situation, who knows what could happen.  You can't forget how much energy there is stored in big batteries.  Can a dangerous scenario actually happen in very rare cases?  I don't know with 100% certainty but I suspect it can.

Imagine two brand new sets of batteries, the sets wired in series, and then each set wired in parallel.  Suppose battery set A was manufactured in batch A and battery set B was manufactured in batch B.  Suppose that the batch A batteries will start to wear out after 500 cycles and suppose batch B was an "off batch" and they start to show signs of wearing out after only 300 cycles.

What are the implications here?  I suppose that it's possible that after 300 cycles that battery set A will consistently discharge in to battery set B after every recharge cycle.  So you think that your solar cells are recharging your batteries, but every time you do this what actually happens is a charge cycle followed by a bank to bank discharge cycle.  The banks don't "balance out" in this scenario, because one bank is healthy and the other bank is worn out.  That will cause your pair of battery banks to undergo a form of self-strangulation.  And the whole time you are blissfully unaware because you thought that you were fine since you bought the same brand and model number of new batteries at the same time.

So, all of this uncertainty could be eliminated with the judicious use of a few power diodes.  Personally, I would never permit the installation of a big array of batteries with banks wired in parallel without the use of diodes.

MileHigh
   

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In the real world you need to connect lead acid battery's in parallel, Li fePo4 are connected in parallel all the time and have extremely low impedance's, in the battery pack i have on my bike there are 12 series banks each bank is 10 cells in parallel.

even connecting a fully charged high capacity battery to a fully discharged high capacity battery is not dangerous, Ever jump start a car, have you ever seen the spark that happens when you connect these 2 battery's together, well it's a small spark, and the jump leads only get mildly warm, why is that bearing in mind connecting 2 zillion AH battery's together that the wiring and thermal mass of the battery's are much larger.

   
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In the real world you need to connect lead acid battery's in parallel, Li fePo4 are connected in parallel all the time and have extremely low impedance's, in the battery pack i have on my bike there are 12 series banks each bank is 10 cells in parallel.

even connecting a fully charged high capacity battery to a fully discharged high capacity battery is not dangerous, Ever jump start a car, have you ever seen the spark that happens when you connect these 2 battery's together, well it's a small spark, and the jump leads only get mildly warm, why is that bearing in mind connecting 2 zillion AH battery's together that the wiring and thermal mass of the battery's are much larger.

I agree that there are times that we need to connect batteries in parallel, and the jump starting of a car is a good example. But think of it this way, if 8mm copper jump leads get warm from one 12v lead acid battery in parallel jump starting a car, then imagine the current that would potentially flow from a bank of charged batteries into a bank of discharged batteries... that would be meltdown current!

We used to use a lead acid battery connected in parallel with our car battery when we went camping. The camping battery had a bit of a dodgy cell, but was ok for providing camping light in the tent at night. However we had to make sure that it was disconnected from the main car battery when the car was not in use because our good car battery would be continually trying to top it up until we were left with two discharged batteries. Hence it only takes one slightly faulty cell to continually discharge good batteries at a much greater rate than the self-discharge rate.

Sterling states that the Green Power device apparently has only been tested for a maximum of 3 weeks before it packed up. I assume that this is the life expectancy of these banks of lead acid batteries... so after just 3 weeks you will have to fork out another couple of hundred quid to buy new ones?!  :'(
   

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Is it me or do some theoretical people seem to have trouble with real world use of standard technology.

In the real world it is quiet usuall to put more than one battery in parallel, in the real world this is not a problem.

You see the melt down situation MH spoke about cannot possibly happen, the reason for this is with a discharged battery the impedance is high, the more  discharged it is the higher the impedance is, this battery with regard to melt down situations is in practise approaching an open circuit, there will be heat dissipated because yes there will be current flowing, but the low impedance and thermal mass of the fully charged battery which has a very low impedance but not as low as the wire will get hotter, infact a battery charger or alternator only manages to recharge a lead acid battery by elevating the charge voltage to above the battery discharge voltage because of this, otherwise you may die of old age waiting for the battery to charge fully.

It does not take a lot of internal resistance for the source battery to lower it's terminal voltage enough for the target battery to take little current.

If you place a charged car battery in parallel with a discharged battery, how long do you think it will take for the discharged battery to take half the charge away from the charged battery, well i can tell you that you could probably go down the pub, get pissed, sleep of the hangover and it may just be almost there barring losses, this i must say is a world apart from the meltdown situation MH spoke of, and this is scaled up to any size of battery because the thermal mass also increases with AH, now i am not saying this is good practise, anyone in the practical world knows not to do this.

So to recap, you can always connect lead acid battery's in Parallel this is 1/never.

I have been pushing this because this is very basic practical torch battery/ bulb stuff. :)
   
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I think that maybe we are all confusing the issue here and that our conflicting opinions may be down to experience. Remember that we are talking about banks of lead acid batteries and relating this to the Green Power device.  Sure there are many everyday applications where batteries in parallel are used, required and indeed work efficiently, but here we are talking about a so-called Free Energy device that is relying on lead acid battery banks. And of course the main issue will be with rechargeable batteries

Peterae, you yourself said earlier that when you see OU and battery banks in the same sentence that you start to lose interest, rightly so. I agree.

When considering battery banks, even a slight mismatch in battery internal impedance can result in one battery working much harder than another. One battery may get constantly over-charged, while the other never gets fully charged.  The longevity of the batteries in banks can be a real issue. And once just one battery (or cell) starts to fail the whole bank can quickly lose performance.

I have known a brand new lead acid battery being completely ruined by being fast-charged from fully drained.  The current can produce enough heat to warp the lead plates, so imagine the current that would flow from a fully charged battery into a fully discharged battery! Both batteries are likely to suffer at least some damage, if not be completely ruined. I have also seen a fast-charger cause a lead acid battery to literally explode, so in the real world, MH’s concerns are not so far-fetched.

Sterling stated that one of the battery banks was discharged to 50% - 70% - that’s very discharged given that it is not recommended ever to discharge a lead acid battery below 80%.

I can see that there are potentially some extremely heavy currents flowing between batteries and battery banks, and I’d put money on this causing battery longevity issues.

Here’s an excerpt of text that perhaps better explains what I was trying to convey:   

Quote
In the RV arena, none of the coach makers put PB in parallel any more. They found out after years of testing that while charging in parallel is fine, in discharging one battery gives its "all" first and the other "loafs". The two batteries have different internal impedences, so one battery is always being discharged more than the other. As the battery ages, the lower impedence battery is always giving max current and therefore its PB plates are undergoing sulpharization more rapidly than the other. So one battery dies of "old age" while the other has only given half of its life cycle. And the problem is that the dying battery now starts to pull down the "loafing" battery. In short, the two batteries do not yield anything like twice the lifetime of a single battery. That is why the RV coach batteries have two marine 6 volt cells in series rather than cheaper 12 volt deep discharge in parallel. You get longer battery life with the two in series.

Some people have negated this problem with the following. They put knife switches on both batteries in parallel. They always charge in parallel. When its time to use the coach battery, they shut off one switch. When that battery starts to get low, they reverse the switches and keep going. This tends to give equal use to both batteries and gives a longer service life. The only problem is remembering to set the switches.
   

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MH said you never put lead acid battery's in parallel

This is just not true, simple as that.
I have explained exactly why, but you still go on, why is that

Quote
Sterling stated that one of the battery banks was discharged to 50% - 70% - that's very discharged given that it is not recommended ever to discharge a lead acid battery below 80%.
Have you ever heard of deep discharge battery's? what do you think these have been designed to do.

Quote
so imagine the current that would flow from a fully charged battery into a fully discharged battery
Who is it that is doing this anyway, can you show me where it was stated that somewhere in SA they do this? or is even talking about this a waste of time.
   
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No need to get in a tizzy, Peterae.

I think that when MH stated that you never put lead acid batteries in parallel it was for the reasons I have been attempting to illustrate, and perhaps unlike yourself, I obviously - given the nature of this thread - assumed he was relating in particular to Green Power battery banks.

For sure I would expect Green Power to be using deep cycle batteries in the first place, and it was in fact these batteries that I was relating to. A normal lead acid car battery can suffer if discharged regularly to just below 50%, whereas a deep cycle lead acid battery can tolerate greater discharge levels, but 80% is their limit!

I think you have taken what MH said a little too literally and have become a little obsessed by the word, NEVER... and you say I go on! C.C

Oh, and yes, talking about it does appear to be a total waste of time.

   
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MileHigh has a good point regarding putting Lead Acid Batteries in parallel.
If you can avoid doing so, the you does not do that. The thing to do is using
larger cells to get you amperage. The attached image is a Rolls 2-KS-33P
and you put 6 in series to get 12 Volt. (More for higher voltage.)
Normally you use a higher voltage inverter for home systems.
(Like 48 volt or higher.) That way you get a lot of Wattage out of you batteries
when there is no sun or wind to recharge.
If you look at your solar panels then you can see that each panel has
a series diode to prevent that one panel in the shade will load your
series and paralleled panels. Same goes for your wind mills, a diode
bridge on each wind generator. It is not practical to put diodes on the
batteries because you want the batteries to be on the same voltage
bus as the solar panels and the wind mills. Most large inverters has
a built in battery charger so that in not a problem. The main problem
is to avoid over charging and high discharging of the battery bank.
This is solved by dumping excess power to a water heater tank,
and if that is not enough, to a external heater that just waste the extra
power as heat outside. You can switch off your solar panels but
you can not switch off the load to your wind mills. They need load
all the time when the wind is blowing.

GL.
   
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Thanks MH, poynt99 and all for additional info on parallel batteries.  I've got battery temperature sensors specifically made for my inverter and despite a lot of mix and match types have never seen any of them get warm.  All 12 volt batteries are wired in parallel banks and those parallel banks are then wired in series to give 48 volts.  I've had 3 different setups like this for about 15 years and never a problem.  But it's good to know the potential is there and to keep an eye on things as any big batteries have enough power to to damage.  It seems at least in real world use that parallel batteries are not a problem if you start with good batteries in close voltage range.  I have had a couple start to drop a bit and pulled them out of the setup.  Generally if any single 12 volt battery won't hold around 12.5 volts when disconnected after a charge it gets put on probation and anything much lower than that will be pulled ;)
   

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The "Secret" to the successful and reliable
utilization of Lead Acid Batteries, whether series
or parallel connected, is Knowledge.

Fortunately, this knowledge is easily attainable
with moderate research effort thanks to the
World Wide Web.

For long life the batteries must never be abused
(overcharged, overheated, under-watered) and
must never be permitted to accumulate hardened
sulfation in their plates.  It helps to understand how
the plates are stressed by the discharge/charge cycles;
how the lead sulfate is formed and how it "grows" the
plates during discharge.   Then how it "shrinks" back
into active materials as the battery is charged.

One must learn the safe procedures for both
equalization and desulfation.

With adequate knowledge it is relatively easy to
assure that the batteries are treated with care
and properly maintained. Lead acid batteries
must be carefully monitored to avoid permanent
damage.

Most lead acid batteries which suffer extensive and
permanent damage are the victims of under-educated
users (abusers.)  Although, in fairness, it must be
pointed out that accidents do occasionally happen.

In the words of Mark Twain:  Never let "schooling"
get in the way of your "education."

See below...


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"Truth: the most deadly weapon ever discovered by humanity. Capable of destroying entire perceptual sets, cultures, and realities. Outlawed by all governments everywhere. Possession is normally punishable by death." - John Gilmore (1935- ) Author
   
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There are a few concerns I have about the methodology that was used to test the motor-generator system that Sterling witnessed in South Africa.

This concern revolves around measuring the output power.   I did not see an explicit mention that a watt meter was used, just a list of some electric appliances that were plugged in and their watt ratings.    Some example:  a toster, a heater, etc...     What concerns me is the fact that most electric heaters have thermostats inside, and turn off when a certain temperature is reached, or they could have multiple watt settings, so which setting was it set to?    It sounds like they are sloppy with their measurments.    

On a positive note, I'm glad that they explained to Sterling how the system works in general terms at least.   It sounds like it could be very close to the Ismael Aviso system, except that they power a generator instead of a vehicle.   Mr. Aviso's system harvest the kickback from the coils just like this system.   Could there be energy amplification in the motor when this is performed, or just a more efficient way to operate?

EM

 
   
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Well, Sterling pulled the plug on the comments on the most recent article.  He like usual appears to be trying to act like the North American agent for the South African company.  Sterling doesn't worry about conflict of interest considering he pitches himself as a journalist.

EM, the testing was a complete farce.  It was only supposed to be a quick test anyways, and Mark Dansie and an engineer were supposed to follow-up a few days later and do real testing.  They were flat-out refused by the company under the guise of a "force majeure."

Sterling is supposed to receive a unit for testing in "March" but in Las Vegas the odds are 500 to one and rising.

There ain't no Coupe de Ville at the bottom of a Cracker Jack box.

Mr. Allen, tear down this wall!
   
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What always rings alarm bells for me with this kind of thing - apart from the seriously suspect 3 hour test - is why would Green Power not use a custom built resistive load?  

Instead they had a mish-mash of appliances, many of which would themselves feature thermostats as EM has alluded to, so at best power dissipation would be erratic.  It simply makes no sense unless you want to deliberately muddy the waters, and you would only do this if you have something to hide.

The other thing I really can't get my head around is why Sterling, after travelling thousands of miles, would not want to sit with the device running for at least a day! I had to smile when Sterling states that under the near 4kW load, the machine should normally run down and stop working after 35 minutes... but then goes for lunch after just 41 minutes. It's laughable.  You can imagine the guys at Green Power starting to sweat a bit around the half-hour mark (no doubt the reason for the 40W fan) and thinking, come on, it's time to get Sterling out of here quick... it's lunch time!   C.C

   
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It was well within Sterling's means along with his associate to take two 12-hour shifts and sit in front of the device for a full 24 hours non-stop.  The fact that the company didn't demonstrate the device with a proper load, say something borrowed from their alleged production line, speaks volumes.  For a lousy $50 USD they could have gone to a local discount store and purchased four 1200-watt 220 VAC blow dryers.  In other words they could have improvised their own 4.8 kilowatt load very easily on the spot.

Then Mark Dansie and the engineer were refused access after flying to South Africa.  You can imagine something like a scene from an old Peter Sellers movie.  They arrive, sign an iron-clad NDA, and then are refused access.  <<<There was a case of tuberculous in the factory.>>>  So they have to turn around and go home and they can't say anything.  It's just so ridiculous.

It's really maddening to see how every story like this always ends up as a farce.  Sterling in his never-ending conflict of interest has now listed them as the #1 most promising free energy technology on his top-five list.

They will never ship a unit to Sterling because it doesn't work.  Sterling pulled the comments from the most recent article, and now almost unbelievably Green Power SA comes out on top.  The article is there on the PESN site with no negative comments, and that allows for them to hope for some gullible marks to get sucked into the con.

You can imagine something like this over the phone, "Yes sir we are accepting orders for this revolutionary technology.  Because of unprecedented demand we have to prioritize our order processing system.  If you want earlier delivery we can accept payment of a 50% deposit up front, with the balance of the payment due withing 30 days after delivering the unit.  Thank you sir for supporting this revolutionary clean energy technology.  By showing your interest in prioritizing your order you help support the spread of green free energy technology and all the benefits that will give back to the environment."

They are probably writing out the phone script as we speak.
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Ah MH, you're such a pessimist!
 :P

 ;D


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I know!  It's terrible!  Why?  Why?  Whyyyy?  lol

How come Sterling didn't monitor the setup for a full 24 hours and report good results???  How some Mark Dansie and the electrical engineer didn't report even better results after much more exhaustive testing??

Why doesn't Rossi want to make an easy one million dollars and all the free publicity that will give him?  Why???

I want the ultimate in uninterruptable power supplies for my computer..... and for my life!!!
   
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I want the ultimate in uninterruptable power supplies for my computer..... and for my life!!!



You didn't say please. lol
   
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...
1.  Then Mark Dansie and the engineer were refused access after flying to South Africa.  You can imagine something like a scene from an old Peter Sellers movie.  They arrive, sign an iron-clad NDA, and then are refused access.  <<<There was a case of tuberculous in the factory.>>>  So they have to turn around and go home and they can't say anything.  It's just so ridiculous.
...

2..  They will never ship a unit to Sterling because it doesn't work.

MH -- can you provide the source(s) for your information to support your assertions delineated 1) and 2) above?
1) Who says Mark Dansie was refused access? can you verify?
2) Who says "They will never ship a unit to Sterling"?

Thanks.
   
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PhysicsProf:

I'm just using an aggressive writing style, of course I don't literally know those things.  However, all of the information so far points to Green Power SA being a scam.  Do you have an opinion yourself one way or the other?

What we know for certain is that Mark Dansie and another person flew all the way to South Africa and they did not get to see the device.  Any thoughts about that?  We also know that the company offered Sterling Allen a "free" unit instead of accepting the cold hard cash that was donated to him to purchase a unit.  Can you speculate on why that would be the case?

I also noticed that Sterling's recent article about his trip entitled "South African Fuel-Free Generator Preparing for Market" has been echoed on several other no-name free energy and alternative sites.  So that means the articles he writes get picked up on a kind of second-tier round of web sites to sit around for years and years.

Meanwhile, three postings about this company (and I use that term loosely) from OU are worth mentioning:

Quote
Cap-Z-ro,
 
this is really great news!
The back emf finally put into efficient use.
 
I read Sterlin D. Allans report and asked him how to get a unit.
 
He answered that the inventors, prior to selling their first 200 units, which are being manufactured in march,
first of all want to test-run all 200 units for 30 days to be sure that their step into the market will be unflawed.
 
Thereafter the local licencee will take over the sales, and the price for a unit will be around 6000 $.
 
Gwandau

There's an example of the type of person Green Power SA is looking for, someone willing to send them money with no proof that the device works.

Here is another interesting posting from "Bob Smith:"

Quote
Based on my observations, I would agree - in the sense that this may be more than just BEMF harvesting, and perhaps more akin to Lee's developments.  The way I see it, this implies producing oscillation at resonance, which creates an imbalance in the aether, which provokes the aether to pour its energy into the circuit.

That's the oldest cliche in the book.  Seems strange that after years and years on the free energy web sites that nobody is able to do this.

Now Gotoluc has chimed in:

Quote
Hi everyone,

I must say this sounds promising.

The other interesting thing is I'm presently in South Africa and will be in the Johannesburg area from March 10th to April 27th. Then I return to my home in Ottawa, Canada.

I'll try to contact Sterling to see if I can also get a demo of the technology

Luc

There are a total of five postings on this new OU thread and every single one of them has something positive to say and one of the posters is already poised to spend money.  That's in contrast to the narrative up to this point that clearly suggests that this is a fraud just like Magnacoaster is a fraud.

MileHigh
   
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I'm quite surprised that Chet hasn't jumped on this bandwagon yet - I would have expected him to have a couple of these babies on back order by now!  ;)

Joking aside boys, the 'DOTS' are there for all to see, it just seems that some of us are far more experienced at joining them up than others.  :)
   
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PhysicsProf:

I'm just using an aggressive writing style, of course I don't literally know those things. MileHigh

I see.  

Quote
However, all of the information so far points to Green Power SA being a scam.  Do you have an opinion yourself one way or the other?

What we know for certain is that Mark Dansie and another person flew all the way to South Africa and they did not get to see the device.  Any thoughts about that?  We also know that the company offered Sterling Allen a "free" unit instead of accepting the cold hard cash that was donated to him to purchase a unit.  Can you speculate on why that would be the case? [snip] MileHigh

  I would strongly recommend caution, as I also recommended for the claims of Rossi (proton capture by nickel nuclei, but no gamma spectra released), for example.

I like to see data, careful repeated measurements.  I'll wait, patiently.
  
   
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It was well within Sterling's means along with his associate to take two 12-hour shifts and sit in front of the device for a full 24 hours non-stop. 

I agree. It is obvious that the volume of the device and the quantity of measured energy are fully compatible with conventional means of energy production (good batteries). So their test is not conclusive because it didn't last enough.

Quote
...
Then Mark Dansie and the engineer were refused access after flying to South Africa.  You can imagine something like a scene from an old Peter Sellers movie.  They arrive, sign an iron-clad NDA, and then are refused access.  <<<There was a case of tuberculous in the factory.>>>
...

 ;D

   
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