Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it?

Author Topic: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? (Read 37582 times)

MileHigh	Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « on: 2012-03-03, 04:05:05 »
Hero Member Posts: 1888	How does it work? Do you have all of your marbles? [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkLfpXpO5sQ&feature=player_embedded[/youtube] Quite slick I must say... Also, from their web site this is a Canadian company that does educational stuff for kids. They are not scammers.

poynt99

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #1 on: 2012-03-03, 04:11:21 »

Group: Administrator
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Posts: 3538
It's not as complicated as it may seem...

Very cool.

They give some pretty good hints how it works. As long as that steel ball keeps moving up to the magnet, and falling due to the wheel rotation, then back again, the wheel should keep spinning.

---------------------------

"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

BEP

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #2 on: 2012-03-03, 04:13:09 »

Hero Member

Posts: 2205

Didn't you see him winding up the apparatus in the beginning?

I'll bet you thought that was to show there were no batteries?

No, No, wait a minute....

Here is one of my favorites:

Mister Hand is doing it! I'll bet he can't bolt that magnet down and have the wheel keep moving! Ha Ha

That is all I have. I just figured I would preempt the know-it-alls and "NON-BELIEVERS" (

)

The machine, or some version of it has been around for a long time.

MileHigh	Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #3 on: 2012-03-03, 04:20:03 »
Hero Member Posts: 1888	I think it might rotate at 7.8 Hz.

poynt99	Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #4 on: 2012-03-03, 04:24:27 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3538 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	What is your argument MH? Is it a PMM? --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

BEP	Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #5 on: 2012-03-03, 04:40:10 »
Hero Member Posts: 2205	Quote from: MileHigh on 2012-03-03, 04:20:03 I think it might rotate at 7.8 Hz. No way! Maybe it rotates at 468RPM? The last one I saw (seemingly working the same way) had a rim/ball track made of aluminum and the ball wasn't just a ball. It was a ball magnet. That group said they knew how it worked but didn't tell and were later declared frauds.

MileHigh	Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #6 on: 2012-03-03, 04:41:52 »
Hero Member Posts: 1888	I think it taps into the Boogie Woogie Man resonance. [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCOeOXydOZU[/youtube]

BEP	Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #7 on: 2012-03-03, 04:44:37 »
Hero Member Posts: 2205	Quote from: MileHigh on 2012-03-03, 04:41:52 I think it taps into the Boogie Woogie Man resonance. Technically speaking.... wouldn't the machine require two balls to make use of that resonance?

GibbsHelmholtz	Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #8 on: 2012-03-03, 04:51:39 »
Hero Member Posts: 700	Quote from: poynt99 on 2012-03-03, 04:11:21 Very cool. They give some pretty good hints how it works. As long as that steel ball keeps moving up to the magnet, and falling due to the wheel rotation, then back again, the wheel should keep spinning. If you say that, then it has nothing to do with gravity?

Farmhand

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #9 on: 2012-03-03, 06:56:04 »

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Posts: 564

I "think" I can see some possibilities for how that could "maybe" work without gravity. Maybe three or more.

One way involves this effect. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBN_cYEgeMA

And the other involves a rubber band or similar to be used.

Can't be sure, but I'll try to explain how I think some ways would work.

1. The most likely in my opinion is a large slowly rotating magnet under the bench (rotated by hand or some other way).

2. The rim of the wheel looks to be aluminium to me, the effect of the steel (I doubt it is pure iron)
ball moving back and forth and the changing flux field of the magnet along
with the eddy current effect in the aluminium and the very slight movement of the magnet
could cause a motoring effect.

3. If there was a small rubber band (or similar) inside the hub connected so as to have tension
placed on it beforehand by winding it backwards, but not strong enough to start rotation
with the weight of the ball on it, then when the ball is moved the weight of the ball temporarily
relieved enough for the rubber band to start rotation and maintain it for a while.

4. Possibly a combination of the two or some other way. $:-\$ Many possibilities.

I'm not saying any of those things is how it is done, just that that is what I would look for
if I was able to see and check it out.

I don't see how it could possibly do any good to think about it too much unless it is for real
and does actually work like that. Going by some of the other models they have, I think they are all powered.

It's not a perpetual motion machine though because it is a man made machine, it will stop.

Only a natural perpetual motion machine is possible, by definition I think.

Cheers

Groundloop	Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #10 on: 2012-03-03, 11:14:23 »
Hero Member Posts: 659	Electric motor is built into the hub. There are batteries in the bottom plate. One reed relay in the bottom plate switch on the motor in the hub when you put the magnet in. GL.

exnihiloest

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #11 on: 2012-03-03, 11:27:59 »

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Posts: 1504

Quote from: MileHigh on 2012-03-03, 04:05:05

How does it work? Do you have all of your marbles?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkLfpXpO5sQ&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

Quite slick I must say...

Also, from their web site this is a Canadian company that does educational stuff for kids. They are not scammers.

The wheel should rotate only if the ball rolls. The magnet attracts the ball but it doesn't let roll the ball. So the wheel should stop when the ball attains his equilibrium position which is where the resultant of the force of gravity and the force of magnetic attraction is equal to the reaction force of the wheel, oriented toward its center.
Nice fake.

GibbsHelmholtz	Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #12 on: 2012-03-03, 12:49:54 »
Hero Member Posts: 700	Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012-03-03, 11:27:59 The wheel should rotate only if the ball rolls. The magnet attracts the ball but it doesn't let roll the ball. ... As long as the wheel rotate, the ball roll. As Poynt pointed out, the rotating wheel will knock the ball down. As the ball roll back up, the wheel roll some more. It's rolling galore imo . lol

Peterae	Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #13 on: 2012-03-03, 13:12:48 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 4697	I don't think he's winding up a rubber band to start it, he is first winding it by hand anti clockwise and then the device also runs anti clockwise, if he was winding it up first he would need to wind clockwise. It's clearly magic

exnihiloest

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #14 on: 2012-03-03, 13:49:48 »

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Posts: 1504

Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2012-03-03, 12:49:54

As long as the wheel rotate, the ball roll.
...

You are reversing the cause and the effect alleged by the inventor. The magnet acts onto the ball, not onto the wheel.

The mistake is obvious: the gravity force alone also attracts the ball, so (if the inventor was logic) the gravity force alone should rotate the wheel for the same reason as the magnet. But it doesn't.
We just face a displacement of the force acting on the ball. Instead of being vertical (ball weight alone), it is oblique (resultant of ball weight + magnet force), so all is happening as if the gravity force was shifted in force and direction. The ball just "fall" at the position of lower potential, the potential being now not only gravitational but gravitational + magnetic. No cause for the wheel to rotate.

GibbsHelmholtz

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #15 on: 2012-03-03, 14:00:24 »

Hero Member

Posts: 700

Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012-03-03, 13:49:48

You are reversing the cause and the effect alleged by the inventor. The magnet acts onto the ball, not onto the wheel.

The mistake is obvious: the gravity force alone also attracts the ball, so (if the inventor was logic) the gravity force alone should rotate the wheel for the same reason as the magnet. But it doesn't.
We just face a displacement of the force acting on the ball. Instead of being vertical (ball weight alone), it is oblique (resultant of ball weight + magnet force), so all is happening as if the gravity force was shifted in force and direction. No cause for the wheel to rotate.

I don't know what alleged by the inventor, but if he alleged as you said, then I must say he is wrong in my world. lol

You are correct if the ball is welded to the wheel.

exnihiloest	Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #16 on: 2012-03-03, 14:02:56 »
Hero Member Posts: 1504	Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2012-03-03, 14:00:24 ... if he alleged as you said, then I must say he is wrong in my world... Naturally he is wrong. We all agree it is a fake, isn't it?

exnihiloest	Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #17 on: 2012-03-03, 14:05:39 »
Hero Member Posts: 1504	Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2012-03-03, 14:00:24 ... You are correct if the ball is welded to the wheel. ... You missed the point.

GibbsHelmholtz	Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #18 on: 2012-03-03, 14:07:55 »
Hero Member Posts: 700	Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012-03-03, 14:02:56 Naturally he is wrong. We all agree it is a fake, isn't it? Ex, I have the right to remain silence.

exnihiloest	Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #19 on: 2012-03-03, 14:12:49 »
Hero Member Posts: 1504	Quote from: MileHigh on 2012-03-03, 04:05:05 How does it work? ... The ball is not steady, it slightly oscillates. May be there are magnetic pulses from a hidden coil that unbalance the resultant force onto the ball?

exnihiloest	Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #20 on: 2012-03-03, 14:20:42 »
Hero Member Posts: 1504	Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2012-03-03, 14:07:55 Ex, I have the right to remain silence. Good idea. I'm bored of having to explain elementary steps of the reasoning that I avoided for cause of obviousness.

GibbsHelmholtz	Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #21 on: 2012-03-03, 14:48:13 »
Hero Member Posts: 700	I question we should ask ourselves is: The motion of the wheel is cause by the ball rolling up, or the motion of the wheel is cause by the ball weight dragging the wheel down.

exnihiloest	Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #22 on: 2012-03-03, 15:48:39 »
Hero Member Posts: 1504	The question supposes that the wheel rotates. It doesn't except with hidden means.

MileHigh

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #23 on: 2012-03-03, 16:08:21 »

Hero Member

Posts: 1888

I think that I've got it!

It's a fake room and the room and the camera rotate together! The axis of rotation of the room is the same as the axis of rotation of the wheel.

So the secret is that the room is rotating and not the wheel! The inertia of the wheel keeps it stationary while the room rotates. So simple!

They even stole the idea:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8Ayxg8CfPs&feature=related[/youtube]

EMdevices

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #24 on: 2012-03-03, 16:23:35 »

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Posts: 1625

I think the inventor they refer to is Bessler, or a variation of his original designs. http://www.besslerwheel.com/

The device is not fake, what you see is what you get. In a static position there is no torque on the rim, since all forces sum up to a radial vector, but when displaced slightly from equilibrium, the restoring force and torque appears. But the real question is, is it OU? I don't think it is because the energy comes from the tension between the ball and the magnet, which is input mechanically by the operator through his hand. If you noticed, the second spin requires the operator to constantly pull the magnet away, and that's energy injection. The Hammel disk is a similar illusion. What all these folks need to do is to mount the "activating" magnet rigidly so it doesn't move, then let's see how long it runs, which won't be long. Another device is that magnetic rail and a steel ball is dropped at on end and it gets pulled to the other. 15 years ago I was corresponding with Naudin from JNL labs and telling him exactly what I'm saying here. He was under the impression that he could loop the rails and have a closed system, and I kept telling him that the energy is injected when the ball is dropped in initially, because magnetic fields are a type of invisible spring that gets "compressed" and then tries to reach equilibrium and dissipates that energy, but the energy content is fixed so it's not OU. I don't think I convinced him, but nature did.

EM

« Last Edit: 2012-03-03, 18:07:23 by EMdevices »