HV connected to magnet, does the Mag field increase

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2024-04-28, 07:14:25
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Author Topic: HV connected to magnet, does the Mag field increase (Read 16239 times)

Peterae	HV connected to magnet, does the Mag field increase « on: 2012-04-18, 21:34:19 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3867	Quote from Grumpy Quote Do you have a HV supply (any DC type will do)? Connect one of the terminals to a magnet and the magnetic field will appear to increase in magnitude. Francis Nipher discovered this and concluded that the permeability of the air (or space) around the magnet was increased when either terminal was connected to the magnet. What is a magnet? a means to polarize and increase the permeability of space! What is a dielectric, but a means to increase the permittivity of space! « Last Edit: 2012-04-19, 09:23:19 by Peterae »

Peterae	HV connected to magnet, does the Mag field increase « Reply #1 on: 2012-04-18, 21:51:05 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3867	So i setup my 10-30Kv DC pulsed variable power supply and connected it to a 2n7 30kv door knob cap. I then connected 4 small neo magnets to the variable smoothed supply, i then placed a UGN3503 2cm away, I set a neutral voltage of 2.5V it will go down to 0 for one polarity and up to 5V for the other polarity of mag field I placed the UGN just close enough to move it to 2V, each mv change equates to 1Gauss change in magnetic field. I powered up the HV DC psu and started at 10kv, i could see no increase or decrease in magnetic field, i continued to wind up the voltage until i got to about 20kv with no measured increase or decrease of the mag field, i carried on but it flashed over to the UGN and knocked it out, looks like i had a hole in the insulation i had put over the legs of the UGN $:-\$ So far i have not seen an increase or decrease of 1 Gauss, i was going to swap the magnet over to confirm theres no effect North and no effect South, i may switch my UGN over tomorrow ------------------------ HV connected to magnet, does the Mag field increase SAM_1654.JPG (57.54 kB, 800x600 - viewed 845 times.) HV connected to magnet, does the Mag field increase SAM_1655.JPG (63.61 kB, 800x600 - viewed 799 times.) HV connected to magnet, does the Mag field increase SAM_1656.JPG (60.62 kB, 800x600 - viewed 777 times.) « Last Edit: 2012-04-19, 09:23:57 by Peterae »

Grumpy	Re: Francis Nipher HV connected to magnet, does the Mag field increase « Reply #2 on: 2012-04-19, 00:16:50 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3947 tExB=qr	Nipher original claim: He notes a deflection of 15 minutes of arc. That's 0.25 degrees. He used an electromagnet, and one hv terminal was connected to the magnet and other terminal was grounded. other details are in the article. ------------------------ HV connected to magnet, does the Mag field increase Nipher_permeability_observations.PNG (196.12 kB, 759x640 - viewed 753 times.)

Grumpy	Re: Francis Nipher HV connected to magnet, does the Mag field increase « Reply #3 on: 2012-04-19, 04:29:21 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3947 tExB=qr	An "influence machine", of the time, was an electrostatic hv device, such as a Whimhurst Generator. The hv was static.

Peterae	HV connected to magnet, does the Mag field increase « Reply #4 on: 2012-04-19, 09:21:57 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3867	It seems that his experiment is quiet different to just applying HV to a magnet, his setup sound extremely sensitive, maybe it's just a very weak change, or theres more to what i did. Theres not much chance i will be replicating his experiment, on that basis i shall bow out. I will change the title as this was not really a test to verify Nipher's setup.

BEP	Re: HV connected to magnet, does the Mag field increase « Reply #5 on: 2012-04-19, 11:14:36 »
Group: Guest	Peterae, Is your magnet electrically conductive throughout the material or just the nickel coating?

Peterae	Re: HV connected to magnet, does the Mag field increase « Reply #6 on: 2012-04-19, 12:27:55 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3867	That's a good point WW, i am not sure if an unplated neo magnetic is conductive or not, so really then i should have tried an iron based magnet, i have some horse shoe magnets at home Or even magnetize a piece of iron and use that

Grumpy	Re: HV connected to magnet, does the Mag field increase « Reply #7 on: 2012-04-19, 14:02:33 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3947 tExB=qr	I'm still pondering how Nipher's experiment could give a positive result. How can applying HV to a electromagnet and to ground increase the permeability of the air around the magnet? I wonder if the permittivity goes down.

GibbsHelmholtz	Re: HV connected to magnet, does the Mag field increase « Reply #8 on: 2012-04-19, 14:48:00 »
Group: Guest	Maybe giving charges create more magnetic field. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_field

Peterae	Re: HV connected to magnet, does the Mag field increase « Reply #9 on: 2012-04-19, 15:32:26 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3867	I presume you would like me to still try an iron magnet, do you think it would be OK to place a piece of thick carboard between the magnet and the hall sensor to stop the potential for arc and knocking out another UGN

Peterae	Re: HV connected to magnet, does the Mag field increase « Reply #10 on: 2012-04-19, 20:05:40 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3867	This time i setup using a 5 Inch soft iron nail, i magnetized it using a neo, found the flat end was North, i pushed this through a carboard tube to hold it, and taped a piece of pvc trunking conduit across the flat face of the nail so i could then drop the hall sensor down to protect it from flash over, it's raining here and when i was getting near 30kv i can hear the sourrounding air ionizing and it was shutting my power unit down, so it was not easy to get consistant variable voltage from 10-30kv especially as i got close to 30kv. Anyway it does indeed alter the magnetic field on the nail, but strangely the field strength goes down LOL Remember each volt is 1 Gauss. I had the hall face without writing on facing the nail head The datasheet says Quote The output null voltage (B = 0 G) is nominally one-half the supply voltage. A south magnetic pole, presented to the branded face of the Halleffect sensor will drive the output higher than the null voltage level. A north magnetic pole will drive the output below the null level. I had it the other way round OOPS so the reverse happens, so a North pole would drive higher, so it looks like indeed the North pole got weaker? [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3t-5DvTmdE[/youtube] « Last Edit: 2012-04-19, 21:57:25 by Peterae »

BEP	Re: HV connected to magnet, does the Mag field increase « Reply #11 on: 2012-04-19, 21:13:48 »
Group: Guest	Have you tried switching the polarity of the HV to the nail? I couldn't confirm all of the claims. One that didn't work was either polarity having the same effect. The nail may be conducting current under your current situation. With drift current actually being rather randomized you may be causing disorder in the structures previously ordered by magnetization. I think this current is reversing your results.

Peterae	Re: HV connected to magnet, does the Mag field increase « Reply #12 on: 2012-04-19, 21:48:53 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3867	OK i just did another video with the hall brand facing the nail North. So this is what happens Hall away from north nail end volts=2.273 Hall with brand facing north nail end but HV off volts=2.264 Hall with brand facing north nail end but HV on volts=2.259 I also believe because the opposite happened with the hall the other way round that this eliminates any possible electrical charge field causing the changing reading so the mag field of the nail is definitely altering. [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gndxl0aMiBQ[/youtube] So as a recap neutral mag field =2.273 no HV we have 2.264V which means we have -9 Gauss HV we have 2.259 which means we have -14 Gauss Remember the stronger the north placed against the branded side of the sensor causes a lower than null voltage so indeed switching on the HV does indeed cause the north to increase in strength by 35% I therefore confirm the Nipher Effect I also believe i have ruled out electrostatic influence because i get similar results with the hall face switched but the resulting movement is revered. « Last Edit: 2012-04-20, 10:39:31 by Peterae »

Peterae	Re: HV connected to magnet, does the Mag field increase « Reply #13 on: 2012-04-19, 21:51:07 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3867	I am unable to reverse the polarity of the HV sorry my equipment cannot do this

BEP	Re: HV connected to magnet, does the Mag field increase « Reply #14 on: 2012-04-19, 22:32:20 »
Group: Guest	Have you taken control readings after each test? Has the position, angle and relation to ambient fields changed anywhere throughout the test? You have the results you should have. I'm just suggesting thoroughness. In spite of what pin-heads will say, the relative magnetic strength of any magnet varies with relation to nearby and distant magnetic fields.

BEP	Re: HV connected to magnet, does the Mag field increase « Reply #15 on: 2012-04-19, 22:35:53 »
Group: Guest	Applying a very high voltage and almost zero current charge to a coil of magnetized wire (magnetization maintained by applied weak magnets) an a 35% change in magnetic field would be a pretty good source for induction. Wouldn't it?

Grumpy	Re: HV connected to magnet, does the Mag field increase « Reply #16 on: 2012-04-19, 23:27:13 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3947 tExB=qr	Great work, Peter.

Harvey	Re: HV connected to magnet, does the Mag field increase « Reply #17 on: 2012-04-20, 03:26:13 »
Group: Guest	Great work Peterae, However I'm concerned that the E field may be impacting the Hall sensor in an unexpected manner. One way to see if there is a change due to the E field would be to replace the magnetized material with a capacitor and rerun the tests i.e. one with and one without the HV. The Guass meter should read zero or near that with no HV, but it may have some anomalous reading when there is HV. If so, then the difference would need to be subtracted from previous results. As regards a setup to show 15 minutes of arc, this could perhaps be done using a laser diode, some mirrors and a scale to measure the offset at the end of the run. I suspect that in the magnetic material we have this internal 'induction' as defined here: E Field Induction starting at about 13 minutes. Since the magnetic field is defined by the electron orbitals it stands to reason that when we alter the orbital locations with a strong E field we are thus altering the resultant magnetic field by that small degree (or minute as the case may be).

Peterae	Re: HV connected to magnet, does the Mag field increase « Reply #18 on: 2012-04-20, 09:06:53 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3867	It does seem too good to be true, So it's best to at least do another couple of tests. I want to re do video 1, i was getting in a muddle first off with regard to my Norths and Souths and the relation to the face of the hall, so i will clear up video 1 Then do 2 more video's I will take another nail, but this time make the flat end south and re carry out the 2 video's, if these go well, i would think we should be able to rule a number of things out hopefully.

Peterae	Re: HV connected to magnet, does the Mag field increase « Reply #19 on: 2012-04-20, 10:49:10 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3867	I just got to work to watch the videos, no sound at home, both videos the voltage goes down when switched on, this is not right, the voltage should have gone up in video 1 instead it went down, in video 2 with the hall face swapped it should have indeed gone down and it did. Why would the hall reading go down in the presence of HV. i would have thought it should at least go up in the presence of a HV field. Same plan as before re do video 1, try a new nail south on flat end and do each video for that nail. So to recap In video 1 above we have Hall away from north nail end volts=2.266 Hall without brand facing north nail end but HV off volts=2.287 +21 Gauss Hall without brand facing north nail end but HV on volts=2.278 -9 Gauss Should have been an increase So we had a decrease off 42% in the wrong direction. Before i started the experiment i did wonder if using PVC pipe as an insulator maybe a bad idea as it's also a dielectric material, maybe i should try thick cardboard and hope the HV does not punch through. « Last Edit: 2012-04-20, 11:19:13 by Peterae »

Peterae	Re: HV connected to magnet, does the Mag field increase « Reply #20 on: 2012-04-20, 21:44:36 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3867	Well i am stumped with this, i tried to isolate why the hall voltage falls when the ht supply is switched on, I moved the nail, hall and hall power unit to the right of the room, and left the EHT supply on the left of the room, i used a length of conduit to join the 2 with the EHT wire inside linking the EHT supply to the nail. The hall still measures lower when the EHT is switched on, even when the hall is held near the conduit and no where near the nail or a magnetic field, so i can only say the hall is actually detecting the E field. I could not fit the whole picture in 1 photo so took 1 of the left side of the room and 1 of the right. Next thing to try is to get rid of the pvc and try carboard just to see if that helps ------------------------ HV connected to magnet, does the Mag field increase SAM_1680.JPG (64.36 kB, 1024x768 - viewed 665 times.) HV connected to magnet, does the Mag field increase SAM_1681.JPG (77.62 kB, 1024x768 - viewed 667 times.) « Last Edit: 2012-04-20, 22:32:21 by Peterae »

BEP	Re: HV connected to magnet, does the Mag field increase « Reply #21 on: 2012-04-21, 01:02:31 »
Group: Guest	Peterae, On similar tests I used magnet to Earth pole orientation, a small mirror attached to the magnet and a laser to detect magnet deflection. The hall-effect devices I had were based upon charges on inner conductors moving while in a magnetic field. It sounds like you sensor is of the same type I had. Try covering the sensed end of the nail with an aluminum foil tent. Point the edges of the foil away from the sensor. ---- I just recalled an issue I had with malfunctioning magnetic field sensors.... The system grounding had failed with the results of presenting powerful gap jumping shocks to personnel and causing the magnetics monitoring to read very low. Once the grounding system was repaired all was back to normal. Even the magnetoresistive sensors are susceptible to high static charges. In short.... the sensors are magnetic when in a magnetic field. The HV charge effects them, as well.

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