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Author Topic: Standing wave in Xenon gas  (Read 34458 times)
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A standing wave is a source wave and a reflected wave adding together in sync inside some kind of wave cavity.  So when you are looking at a standing wave you are really looking at two waves of the same frequency.
   
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Hi
Theres a documented experiment on  energy removal from a discharge tube thats  reported to give OU. It has a twin  plate capacitor with required dielectric placed half way up the tube. In this experiment the gas is ionised by a high frequency resonant coil placed at the base of the tube. I dont remember who did this at present but it came to mind. I was searching vortex experiments at that time. Hopefully someone will have more info as the apparatus is similar. The dielectric is  the key on this and the plates were different metals.  Its one I remembered as the OU part differed from most typical projects.
Anyone remember this?
   
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Fascinating stuff.  The standing waves have to be acoustic in nature.  You know when the gas transforms from ordinary gas to plasma that it heats up.  Therefore this creates a small acoustic pressure wave in the gas from the expanding heated plasma.  These mechanical pressure waves are periodic due to the periodic excitation provided by the high voltage AC power source.


Yes, the tube act as an acoustic resonator. The "ball" shaped nodes are longitudinal standing waves. There could be something about the reflection of those waves, which cause the shape distortion.

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Every time you set up a standing wave, you are at some harmonic of a fundamental frequency.  You never are looking at the fundamental acoustic resonant frequency of the air cavity, you are looking at a harmonic on the resonant frequency that is always (N x Resonant_Frequency) where N = 2, 3, 4...  It's almost like the playing of a flute in terms of the setting up of the standing waves.

I know that. What about the case, when I drive a primary side of the HV transformer with a frequency, where no nodes would be appear at the xenon tubes, just straight line plasma. If I insert for example a ring magnet around a tube in this case, the added magnetic field would cause the plasma lines to move around by the Lorentz force, which would cause nodes to appear. (like in one of my picture) So, the driving frequency far from any resonant point, and the added magnet caused "nodes"  to appear, and increase in the plasma length. Longer streamers mean more charge, right? What should happen in this case with the primary coil current? 

   
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Chef:

I will attempt a reply but I haven't looked anything up, just thinking out loud.

I am assuming that the longer the length of the plasma, the higher the voltage drop it sustains, and this is more or less independent of the current.  There is a key property of the plasma, once it switches on (ignites) then the voltage stays the same with increasing current.  That property is called a negative differential resistance.  Another fundamental property is that when the current switches off, the plasma remains ignited for a very short time.  This allows for the current flow to pick up from where it left off because the plasma "conductor" is still there.  Once the plasma is ignited then the voltage required to sustain the "burn" is much lower than the initial ignition voltage.

So if you lengthen the plasma stream, you know the voltage drop goes up.  This makes it harder for the transformer secondary to push current through the plasma, so the average current has to go down.  A higher voltage drop implies higher power, lower average current implies lower power.  Whether the power consumption goes up or down as the plasma stream length increases depends on whether one effect is predominant over the other.

A longer plasma stream means that there are more excited electrons, but that has nothing to do with the AC current flow supplied by the transformer.

I can't really comment on the magnet affecting the nodes, would have to observe it first had to try to figure it out.

I don't know if I answered your question, just rambling really.

MileHigh
   
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MileHigh:

Thank you for the answer.

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"A longer plasma stream means that there are more excited electrons, but that has nothing to do with the AC current flow supplied by the transformer."

It has to do with what? If nodes appear, what about the frequency of the secondary coil?

   
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Any ideas on how it could be considered a standing wave without a reflected wave?

Good work!

There is a reflected wave.. you have a transition in medium when the plasma meets the wire at the end of the tube.

It is a boundary condition, so to a portion of the energy in the plasma, the tube looks like a pipe with closed ends -- node | antinode | node

Stand the tube up with a ground plane below it.. you should see a directional rotation, just like in a tesla coil discharge you can see spirals in the plasma http://krazerlasers.com/tesla_coils/vttc_streamer.jpg

   

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While Charles Wheatstone was performing an experiment with three spark gaps and a rotating mirror, he discovered that the middle gap sparked after the two outer gaps.  This implied that electricity flowed from each end of the source. 

Two waves in opposite directions can form a standing wave.
   
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While Charles Wheatstone was performing an experiment with three spark gaps and a rotating mirror, he discovered that the middle gap sparked after the two outer gaps.  This implied that electricity flowed from each end of the source. 

Two waves in opposite directions can form a standing wave.

Electricity does flow from both ends. This is easily seen in videos of lightning strikes. There is always a leader that comes up from the ground to meet the bolt coming down. Even when considering the formation of the depletion region in semi conductors, the conclusion is that flow is from both ends.
   
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Hi,
What about the discharge from above the storm cloud? The one that creates the clean zone in the van Allen belts where satellites are located. Dont know of anything relating to this at ground level unless those freak extra long discharges perpendicular to the wire have to do with this. Ie 9foot strikes from a 25KV train track line. This  may be switching transients though.
   
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Chef:

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It has to do with what? If nodes appear, what about the frequency of the secondary coil?

It has to be that the energy in the initial high voltage spike to create the plasma in the first place is the mechanism that generates all of the high energy electrons in the plasma itself.  Those electrons were always there in the gas, they weren't provided by the transformer.  When I say spike here I mean an energy spike.  That's high voltage times current times time which equals energy.  That energy strips the electrons off of the gas molecules to get the whole ball rolling.

When you say secondary coil I assume you mean the high voltage transformer output.  The power consumption of the plasma tube is also proportional to frequency, it has to be.  Typically the higher in frequency you go the higher the power consumption.  Exactly by how much is something I don't know.  It would be an interesting experiment.

MileHigh
« Last Edit: 2010-05-12, 04:29:10 by MileHigh »
   
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Finally I had time today to do some work, and got some very interesting result. I can reproduce now anytime, the spinning movement in the plasma, without a ring magnet, using only the earth magnetic field. I had to make some change on the primary side of the HV transformer,to achieve these result, but it's there. There is a spin at the positive side of the plasma streamer, the negative side is just a fixed end, as Darkspeed said, which act as a closed end, and reflect the wave. The interesting thing is, if I rotate the tube up and down, when the + side is up, the spinning stop, if it's down, it start spinning again. There is a definite blocking effect, like in the TPU.  In this configuration the current consumption doesn't change when there is a spin, or isn't. Don't forget, there is only one spin direction in this configuration, which move the wave only one direction toward the negative side, not like when I add any magnet across the length of the tube, on those cases, because of the magnet have two pole, the Lorentz force cause spin in two direction, toward each other!


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyy1AYyJ-bs[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5sQ4DrjEc0[/youtube]







« Last Edit: 2010-05-17, 23:33:44 by Chef »
   
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Chef is now Jedi  8)

PS: sunscreen... there is a lot of uv coming off that standing wave

   

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Buy me some coffee
Good work Chef, great video's



« Last Edit: 2010-05-18, 14:34:02 by Peterae »
   

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Finally I had time today to do some work, and got some very interesting result. I can reproduce now anytime, the spinning movement in the plasma, without a ring magnet, using only the earth magnetic field. I had to make some change on the primary side of the HV transformer,to achieve these result, but it's there. There is a spin at the positive side of the plasma streamer, the negative side is just a fixed end, as Darkspeed said, which act as a closed end, and reflect the wave. The interesting thing is, if I rotate the tube up and down, when the + side is up, the spinning stop, if it's down, it start spinning again. There is a definite blocking effect, like in the TPU.  In this configuration the current consumption doesn't change when there is a spin, or isn't. Don't forget, there is only one spin direction in this configuration, which move the wave only one direction toward the negative side, not like when I add any magnet across the length of the tube, on those cases, because of the magnet have two pole, the Lorentz force cause spin in two direction, toward each other!


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyy1AYyJ-bs[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5sQ4DrjEc0[/youtube]



When the positive side is up, is the spin counter-clockwise?
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Nice Chef!

It certainly demonstrates that the earth's magnetic field is strong enough to cause the effect.

.99
« Last Edit: 2010-05-18, 14:32:53 by poynt99 »
   
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When the positive side is up, is the spin counter-clockwise?

When the positive side is up, there is no spinning at all.  ::)
   
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Good work Chef, great video's

Surely this is demonstrating the extraction of free energy, because the spin energy is being extracted from the earths magnetic field and therefore is free.




Free energy? There is no free energy in the universe, our Earth, Sun, galaxy, etc driven by some generator located a secret place somewhere at the earth.  ;D

Anyway better to go back to silent mode, don't except more post from me here.
   

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When the positive side is up, there is no spinning at all.  ::)

 ::) back at you - (asking what is already answered brings more attention to it)

If there is no spinning when positive is up, then it is not the earth's magnetic field itself causing the spin or it would work in both directions.

Gravity is another force that can cause spiral drift paths if a magnetic field is present, which is present in the plasma and the earth's ambaint magnetic field.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guiding_center






   
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If there is no spinning when positive is up, then it is not the earth's magnetic field itself causing the spin or it would work in both directions.


G - remember when he stands that up it is now in line between the plates of a huge capacitor ( earth and sky ) one way is with the flow and one way is bucking the flow between plates ( leakage )

   

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G - remember when he stands that up it is now in line between the plates of a huge capacitor ( earth and sky ) one way is with the flow and one way is bucking the flow between plates ( leakage )


Yeah, I had not considered that. Electric fields are also accounted for in the Guiding Center link and notice that positive and negative drifts are in the same direction.

It appears that particle precession requires two fields perpendicular to each other, but why doesn't two static fields work on a collector?



   
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Chef is now Jedi  8)

PS: sunscreen... there is a lot of uv coming off that standing wave


Dark sunglasses, too!   :o   ;)

--Lee
   
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