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Author Topic: Sine to Square  (Read 51283 times)
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Does anyone who was around back when Erfinder was posting in this thread remember the coil configuration pictures he showed to produce the sine to square wave? 



Hi Dave,

I believe I found the Bucking versus series.png picture on my old hard drive but I cannot find  Picture 155.jpg and Picture 156.jpg ones,  probably I did not save them.

The picture I attach is very likely the 3rd one Erfinder uploaded to his deleted post. I hope I am not mistaken.

Gyula 




   
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Hi Dave,

I believe I found the Bucking versus series.png picture on my old hard drive but I cannot find  Picture 155.jpg and Picture 156.jpg ones,  probably I did not save them.

The picture I attach is very likely the 3rd one Erfinder uploaded to his deleted post. I hope I am not mistaken.

Gyula

Thank you Gyula.  I had found that one somewhere years ago when scavenging the internet for Erfinder insights.  It's too bad that the schematic doesn't add much insight without a picture of the coils' actual position with relation to the rotor.  I appreciate your efforts.

Dave
   
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Hi Dave,

Thinking on his coils position with bucking poles to compress their magnetic flux, there has to be a certain angle for the coils axis where the resulting inductance
of their series connection is very close to their resulting inductance found in normal series connection.
This would be needed to make comparable input power for the two cases in the schematic, for bucking coils may have less or more resulting inductance, depending on their magnetic coupling
(positive or negative mutual inductance influencing the resulting inductance).

Here this is discussed under subtitle Differentially Coupled Series Inductors https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/inductor/series-inductors.html
The two coils are drawn to have a common axis i.e. the bucking poles face each other, giving much lower resulting inductance for the series coil (coupling dependent of course).
Of course the facing magnetic S poles indicated in the middle do not cancel but their flux are compressed, making the field more dense.

Thoughts are welcome. Erfinder wrote a few times he was not interested in measuring input or output power but we cannot assume he was not aware of the reducing inductance for the bucking coils case...   :D

Hopefully a member here will find the missing pictures to learn about his coil positions.

Gyula
   

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I believe I found the Bucking versus series.png picture on my old hard drive but I cannot find  Picture 155.jpg and Picture 156.jpg ones,  probably I did not save them.
Peterae must have them in an old backup.
   
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The two configurations are identical in principle, the only difference being the value of the equivalent inductance L=L1+L2+2M, where M is the mutual inductance.

Depending on whether the series connection is normal or bucking, M is positive or negative. In the latter case, the inductance is much lower, favoring higher frequencies and leading to the possibility of resonance at certain frequencies of the square-wave signal spectrum. Moreover, operation is considerably altered between the two cases, as the parasitic capacitances of the transistor, diodes and windings no longer have the same relative impedance to that of the equivalent inductance. The 2 circuits can therefore behave completely differently, so comparing them is of little relevance.

The force between the 2 coils is attractive in the 1st case and repulsive in the second, but this is only a mutual influence of the charges circulating in the two coils. As far as the magnetic field is concerned, we can't say there's any “compression”: there is a simple superposition of the fields and the forces are only on the charges.


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Wavewatcher,

Please don't misunderstand, I truly appreciate your suggestion, I have looked into it, however, "bench tests" have revealed time and time again that  pulse motors under normal circumstances don't allow you to capitalize on the generator action when you pull the plug.  I have tried them all, from B€dini to Adams and everything in between, and multiple variations of all of them, none allow you to do what I have found.  I don't know if you are in the position to test what I have suggested, if you can please do so.  If you cannot I understand.  It is extremely important that you experience the effect first hand, see the difference for yourself. 

It seems to me that the effect is more like a capacitor discharge.  The the speed and intensity of the charging is likened to that experienced when a capacitor is made to charge another capacitor.  When the system is properly balanced, there is no drag produced during this charging period, regardless of the size of the buffer capacitor.  This has to be experienced to believe.  I am not asking anyone to take my word for anything, nor believe what you see in the videos, I am suggesting, asking, as humbly as I know how for those who are in the position to test, do so.  Experience this for yourself. 

Attached is the basic two coil setup that generates the effect.  There are two six strand coils.  Coil one has all of its strands paralleled, the same is done with coil two.  The coils are then configured in Bucking series (Natural Series).   

Inductance = 13.7mH
Resistance  = 0.8 ohm

You are not limited to the values that I have mentioned here...if you are going to use cored solenoids like I am showing here, I recommend you use coils which have higher inductance than mine.  When you connect the coils in this manner, the scope will show the second wave in the Fourier Series.  That is the indication that you have setup the device correctly.

Orthogonal air cores outperform iron core coils.  I believe this is because the iron doesn't allow the higher frequency oscillations to manifest, choke.  We don't want a choke.   


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Great find Peter,  thanks for your searching efforts.

Gyula
   
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Thank you, Peter.  This adds some much needed visual context to the messages of Erfinder's that I have archived.

I find the individual strand butt splicing between the two coils to be particularly interesting.  This seems like it would lend a layer of capacitive energy storage and exchange between the two multi-filar solenoids.
« Last Edit: 2025-07-07, 00:48:25 by web000x »
   

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All the posts i could find between 7th-12th
Hi Paul,

I left that part out.  It is the Fourier Transform!  I'll show you the reason why in another post.  This machine and a few of my other machines, generate a series of odd harmonics which seem to go infinite, and generate this perfect square.  I knew this was the right forum.

Regards

The question I have yet to see, is how is this possible with a generator?  Generators don't operate in this manner.  As you pointed out, its common knowledge how to do this using solid state components, but never have I seen it done using a simple configuration of coils, and magnets.  When you saw the video, did you note how when the wave makes its transition to or from the square, how the wave rings?

There is no magnet biasing.....core is not saturated, normal induction taking place.  The same effect can be generated using air core systems, I will demonstrate this.  Thanks for looking at this, and setting up this thread...its truly appreciated.

Regards

Now that was interesting......in your opinion can this phenomena be put to good use?

Regards

The odd harmonic concept did not originate with me, I borrowed it from the Fourier Transform while trying to understand what is taking place in this machine, the term infinite was also borrowed from the Fourier transform and applied.  Calling it a perfect square was me expressing joy in seeing how clean this wave is.  Regarding how the device is wired, I showed you this already on the thread you opened in the energetic forum, I will be doing a new series of videos showing my ignorance of how to read a scope, and walk the viewers through how this and other machines I have built are configured.

Honestly I don't feel you are justified in trying to correct me with regards to my "perfect square, and odd harmonic" statements, you weren't aware of where I adopted these ideas from, so I take no offense and do not stand corrected.  If this is the attitude that I have to look forward to then there really is no point sharing anything at all, it would be nice if I could just put the information out there before someone tears my years of work down before a single thing is shown.  I think I shared this view with you before... There will be time for you to run all over this thing if that's your thing, and when you do, your statements will either be profound and you will have my undivided attention, or you will deliver more of what you are giving me now, and I'll ignore you, ignoring you would be the gentleman thing to do.   As I value your opinion, and your level head, I hope it doesn't come to that.  With that being said, I wont respond to the remainder of your post in the hope that we can start over once I have uploaded more information.  I am not an EE 99% of what you stated above went in one of my ears and out the other anyway.  That is not an insult its actually a good thing, not caring about what the text says, whats possible and whats not has allowed me to find something that I have never seen before, namely, a generator that has a square wave output.  I might be so bold as to say, a practical use for harmonic distortion...organized chaos.....ignorance is bliss...don't ruin it for me.

Regards

Hello EMdevices,

This is a generator.  I spin it by hand and show the wave form (sine) that it generates with no load attached to it.  I then stop it, attach the load, and then spin it again, this time it generates the square wave.  I'm working on new videos which I hope will make a few of the simple things clear.

Regards

Load is a 4700uF 400v capacitor, charged via a full wave bridge.  The cap is shorted by a 100 watt incandescent lamp. 

I am sorry to report that I still haven't shot those new videos, please forgive the delay, in the meantime I am providing the following video.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cbl7jjNB_q4&hd=1[/youtube]

The effect of interest here is how the "Buffer" capacitor (capacitor which is paralleled with the power supply) is charged to a higher voltage than the supply after I shut the system down.  I have built several different pulse motors over the years, and have followed the work of other researchers with great interest.  I have never seen anyone demonstrate this effect before.  See video description for more details.

I have been able to get this effect with any circuit that I attach to this coil configuration.  I am positive someone will ask for a schematic, my response is that the effect isn't limited to any particular drive circuit, you can use any basic non inductively triggered circuit.  Coil to coil communication is important.  The attached drawing shows how coils are connected in the machine in the video.  I call this connection "Natural Series" (refer to attached image titled:  connections.  I will elaborate on why I call it that at a later date.  If you try this with standard solenoid style coils, the wave form that you should generate with these connections is the second in the Fourier Series...(the combination of the 1st and 3rd harmonics) refer to attached image titled :Fourier.  That has been my experience, for your viewing pleasure, here is an example of me generating the second waveform in the Fourier Series with one of my machines, I also attached a picture of the motor, and its waveform.  My inspiration came from B€dini, he also generated this wave form, in the beginning I thought it was the magnetic circuit that made it possible, imagine my surprise when I found that it was the coil connections. 

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-rgZJM11Ek&hd=1[/youtube]

Regards

If you have a pulse motor, which is not configured like mine, one which is triggered by anything except an inductor, please run it and show me how it lifts your (capacitor paralleled with, and isolated from via diodes) supply higher than the supply voltage.  I have tried, and cannot make it happen.  My opinion, this isn't an effect which should be summed up as simple "motor regeneration".
 
Please show me your motor doing this.....I can show you at least two diametrically opposed geometries which do it, air core, iron core, high or low inductance, it doesn't matter.  These same machines can be rewired , consume the same amount of current, and  operate at the same rpm.  After they have been rewired (how we wire everything...) however, they will not show this effect, regardless of  how much "angular momentum" is stored up in the rotor.


Regards

Post already shown previously with 3 pics
Wavewatcher,

Please don't misunderstand, I truly appreciate your suggestion, I have looked into it, however, "bench tests" have revealed time and time again that  pulse motors under normal circumstances don't allow you to capitalize on the generator action when you pull the plug.  I have tried them all, from B€dini to Adams and everything in between, and multiple variations of all of them, none allow you to do what I have found.  I don't know if you are in the position to test what I have suggested, if you can please do so.  If you cannot I understand.  It is extremely important that you experience the effect first hand, see the difference for yourself. 

It seems to me that the effect is more like a capacitor discharge.  The the speed and intensity of the charging is likened to that experienced when a capacitor is made to charge another capacitor.  When the system is properly balanced, there is no drag produced during this charging period, regardless of the size of the buffer capacitor.  This has to be experienced to believe.  I am not asking anyone to take my word for anything, nor believe what you see in the videos, I am suggesting, asking, as humbly as I know how for those who are in the position to test, do so.  Experience this for yourself. 

Attached is the basic two coil setup that generates the effect.  There are two six strand coils.  Coil one has all of its strands paralleled, the same is done with coil two.  The coils are then configured in Bucking series (Natural Series).   

Inductance = 13.7mH
Resistance  = 0.8 ohm

You are not limited to the values that I have mentioned here...if you are going to use cored solenoids like I am showing here, I recommend you use coils which have higher inductance than mine.  When you connect the coils in this manner, the scope will show the second wave in the Fourier Series.  That is the indication that you have setup the device correctly.

Orthogonal air cores outperform iron core coils.  I believe this is because the iron doesn't allow the higher frequency oscillations to manifest, choke.  We don't want a choke.   


Regards
   
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Hi Peter,

Thank you!

Gyula
   
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Your efforts are MUCH appreciated!! Thank you, Peter!
   

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is anyone doing any fiddling with this?

according to the circuit, the one with bucking coils, he said about having concentrated field.

so the magnets on the rotor must be in bucking config with the coils when aligned.

or could it be he has bucking coils within each left and right coil assy?

have to read it all a couple times more

mags
   
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I plan on fiddling with this.  I have been slowly working my way back into the lab for a replication.  I was on the verge of tossing out some old "junk" servomotor rotors but pulled them out of the box and started cleaning them off to begin planning a build.  I have enough 26 AWG wire to make two coils roughly the same size depicted in the images from this thread that Peter recovered.  By my calculations, I should have a higher inductance and resistance than he states in this thread but that is okay per the attached post screenshot.  I also found reading back over the Erfinder_2a document to be enlightening on coil winding methods among other subtle details.  I plan on re-reading all of my archived Erfinder posts once more before I begin construction just for good measure.

Dave
   

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thanks for the pdf.  ill look at it tonight.

mags
   
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Hey Mags and anyone else interested,

Here are a couple of documents that I have compiled consisting of Erfinder's posts.  The ERFINDER ARCHIVE.pdf is a compilation of screenshots that I had taken with my iPad and then OCR'd the document so it is searchable and the Erfinder Quotes.pdf is a pdf of where I copied and pasted his replies into a document.  A lot of the posts he made at overunity.com are still preserved within these documents.

Take Care,

Dave
   
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Hi Dave,

Thanks for your arduous work to compile erfinder's posts. 

If only I knew what advantage his motor-generator combo (producing the square wave) had...   :D   Have you managed to figure it out? 

Gyula
   
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Hi Dave,

Thanks for your arduous work to compile erfinder's posts. 

If only I knew what advantage his motor-generator combo (producing the square wave) had...   :D   Have you managed to figure it out? 

Gyula

I'm not 100% sure where it will lead as I've not seen it on the bench yet but I do know it was one of the beginning discoveries which lead Erfinder down his path.  It is worth investigating.  Here is a quote from him regarding the squaring of the wave.

Quote
When the square wave manifests, that's when you begin to store the CEMF which is in
opposition to the applied EMF .... this stored up CEMF then discharges back into the primary when you stop driving the device as a
motor ...

Dave
   

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Hi Dave,

Thanks for your arduous work to compile erfinder's posts. 

If only I knew what advantage his motor-generator combo (producing the square wave) had...   :D   Have you managed to figure it out? 

Gyula

when i had talked with steve a few years ago, he described the thing as a motor that had no or very little cemf, in which there is no stopping point of max current.  the faster it went, the more curret it wanted so rpms would simply increase because no cemf to counter the input as the motor sped up.  so most likely pwm input to control the speed and torque/hp that you want

at that time, he was going for very expensive wire and caps. stuff not readily avalable to just anybody, except maybe nasa and such. the wire could only be had by order and then make what you need.

how he was redirecting the cemf away from the input is something he had yet to fully explain.

mags
   
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Dave and Mags,

Thank you guys for the answers.

I started reading Erfinder's posts, hopefully I can figure out something useful by reading between his lines...

Gyula

   

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Dave and Mags,

Thank you guys for the answers.

I started reading Erfinder's posts, hopefully I can figure out something useful by reading between his lines...

Gyula

Echoing Gyula's thanks for compiling guys. Very much appreciated.

Well, isn't this interesting. I've also run my pulse motor with generator bucking coils and noticed similar effects. So much so that I've integrated bucking coils into an oscillating double infinity loop using a dozen coils. The drawback I'm finding seems to have been solved by using multi-strand coils.

From a quick read through, it seems Erfinder has setup two caduceus coils using the additional effect of multiple fields reconciling in each coil instead of two standard coils just going head to head.

I'm really interested to see how the magnet rotor is structured if anyone has a picture?
   

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Is this device the same?  ;)
   

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Is this device the same?  ;)

Not quite, but I owe you a beer and a hug for posting that image.

I've got 12 counterwound coils I can wire up like this - just need to rotate the top row 60°. As is, I could short at 2500 rpm (500V) and drop input current by nearly a third.

   
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Well, isn't this interesting. I've also run my pulse motor with generator bucking coils and noticed similar effects. So much so that I've integrated bucking coils into an oscillating double infinity loop using a dozen coils. The drawback I'm finding seems to have been solved by using multi-strand coils.

Are you getting a squared waveform from this arrangement?

I'm really interested to see how the magnet rotor is structured if anyone has a picture?

Erfinder Quote regarding the rotor:
Quote
There are six magnets in the rotor, 60° spacing.  They alternate NSNSNS.  When the device is operated as a motor the circuit fires 3 times per revolution.



I ended up winding one coil with three strands of 26 awg.  My calculations were off regarding wire length so I need another spool of 26 awg to complete the 2nd coil.  My plan is to test two coils in trifilar configuration before splitting the windings to finalize 6-filar coils.  My inductance of a single strand is 375mH air core and resistance is 110 Ohms/37 Ohms paralleled, a bit higher than anything suggested by Erfinder but 6 filar should get me down to 93mH and 55 Ohms single/9 Ohms paralleled.  However, I am able to produce a square wave when loading the single coil down with a FWBR to RC load.  I need to clean up my bench and I will get a video showing the effect.

Dave
   

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hey dave
3 strands
  were they wound together, next to each other, or more randome for each?

mags
   
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hey dave
3 strands
  were they wound together, next to each other, or more randome for each?

mags

The strands were wound next to each other the best I could do while spooling it with a hand drill and guiding the wires.  There were many times the wires would separate and wind along their own paths, creating non-uniform impedance, so there is definitely some randomness to it.  I tried to get a video last night but the video quality wasn't good because of vibrations.  When I tried film another, my drill battery had died which I was using to spin the rotor.  On top of that, my HVAC condenser fan went out last night during this heat wave so I didn't get great sleep and have been contending with that.  I will attempt to get another video before going to work today.

Dave
   
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