PopularFX
Home Help Search Login Register
Welcome,Guest. Please login or register.
2019-04-20, 03:24:36
News: If you have a suggestion or need for a new board title, please PM the Admins.

Pages: 1 [2]
Author Topic: Finally, the pin-heads are admitting the truth...  (Read 16481 times)
Jr. Member
**

Posts: 52
Be prepared to separate the magnet and the sensor with an electrostatic shield lest you become confused with false positives. Aluminum foil works well.

Yes, others have done the experiment. The reported results varied. I concluded that an electrostatic charge applied to the magnet does increase the magnetic field density.

Which means a current is induced. (a changing  or increasing magnetic field induces a current)
Thus Ex(-B)=qr/t
   

Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3044
tExB=qr
page from Francis Nipher's book that describes his experiment applying an electric potential to a magnet:
   
Jr. Member
**

Posts: 52
page from Francis Nipher's book that describes his experiment applying an electric potential to a magnet:



re·luc·tance

2.
Electricity . the resistance to magnetic flux offered by a magnetic circuit, determined by the permeability and arrangement of the materials of the circuit.

 IMHO, I think that's the key.   Reluctance. We have to look at the reluctance of the circuit, not so much the permeability of free space.   The permeability does increase but this is manifest as a drop in resistance to the change in the magnetic field in the circuit.
   

Group: Elite
Hero Member
******

Posts: 1859
Which means a current is induced. (a changing  or increasing magnetic field induces a current)
Thus Ex(-B)=qr/t

Again, I was speaking of static charge. Sure, a current will be induced but only during the application of charge.


---------------------------
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   
Jr. Member
**

Posts: 52
Again, I was speaking of static charge. Sure, a current will be induced but only during the application of charge.

Yes. Agreed.  If your experiment was actually a success then it is experimental verification of Ex(-B)=qr/t.

Again the equation implies that by applying a magnetostatic field orthogonally to an electrostatic field a current is is induced either by
a. imparting a velocity to a charge q in free space
b. Inducing a current, i, along a wire
c.  or changing the status of the dipole moment qr

   
Jr. Member
**

Posts: 52
On second thought.  I see what you mean and I got it backwards.
You are applying a charge.  I have you applying the magnetic field.
Ostensibly they are  equivalent but I can see where this might
be considered not to be so.

How about this?
Set up a little mini capacitor on a desk top made from
just a couple pieces of aluminum foil.  
Place a coil , with a couple of wires attached to it
 along with a bar magnet inside  the coil
and place it flat on the table between the plates.
Make sure the poles of the magnet face the  plates.
Charge up the capacitor a bit and then turn off the power source.
Pull the magnet up by the wires until its
perpendicular to the electric field.
Attach the ends of the wire to a led and see if it lights.
I'm definitely not an experimentalist but this seems like it should work.
   
Group: Elite
Hero Member
******

Posts: 3465
It's turtles all the way down
On second thought.  I see what you mean and I got it backwards.
You are applying a charge.  I have you applying the magnetic field.
Ostensibly they are  equivalent but I can see where this might
be considered not to be so.

How about this?
Set up a little mini capacitor on a desk top made from
just a couple pieces of aluminum foil.  
Place a coil , with a couple of wires attached to it
 along with a bar magnet inside  the coil
and place it flat on the table between the plates.
Make sure the poles of the magnet face the  plates.
Charge up the capacitor a bit and then turn off the power source.
Pull the magnet up by the wires until its
perpendicular to the electric field.
Attach the ends of the wire to a led and see if it lights.
I'm definitely not an experimentalist but this seems like it should work.

An interesting idea, however:

An LED would be a bad choice for a detector since it's threshold is 1.5 to 3 volts depending on the type used and will show nothing below that threshold, as there may be a pulse below this level that is missed. I would bet the signal from the coil is also dependent on the speed which the coil/magnet is turned perpendicular.

Also what if the magnet / coil assembly were continuously rotated at some speed between the electric field plates. The signal could be brought out through slip rings for DC or rotary transformer if AC.

Additionally the coil/magnet and capacitor plates would have to be magnetically shielded to prevent earth magnetic field from inducing a current into the coil.

If you have a an idea, better to explain what you expect to see and why, then we can design a really good test experiment that subdues or ignores false positives.

Better to use an oscilloscope or some DA instrumentation to record the low level output.

We appreciate having those that can predict a possible outcome of an experiment, and there are also those here that love to design the experiments hardware / test setup. It is a synergistic combination for testing a hypothesis.

Keep those ideas coming!

Kind regards, ION
« Last Edit: 2014-07-21, 14:50:07 by ION »


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 1087

re·luc·tance

2.
Electricity . the resistance to magnetic flux offered by a magnetic circuit, determined by the permeability and arrangement of the materials of the circuit.

 IMHO, I think that's the key.   Reluctance. We have to look at the reluctance of the circuit, not so much the permeability of free space.   The permeability does increase but this is manifest as a drop in resistance to the change in the magnetic field in the circuit.


I note that the magnet strength seemed to increase when the magnet was charged both positively and negatively, and that dispels my suggestion that the effect was due to spin-polarized surface charge (negative being an excess of spin polarized electrons and positive being a deficit, the former would increase the magnetization and the latter would decrease it).  So maybe the answer lies in the ionisation of the air molecules and the inherent spin that ionisation would produce where the ions then align themselves with the magnetic field, thus extending the overall magnetic effect.  This would appear as an increase in permeabilty in that region close to the magnet.  Then taking GFT's reluctance of a magnetic path, the effective reluctance of the external path from N to S pole would be reduced.  For those who don't know how to determine that external path reluctance my paper shows how to use Nagaoka's geometric factor to do that.
   
Jr. Member
**

Posts: 52
An interesting idea, however:

An LED would be a bad choice for a detector since it's threshold is 1.5 to 3 volts depending on the type used and will show nothing below that threshold, as there may be a pulse below this level that is missed. I would bet the signal from the coil is also dependent on the speed which the coil/magnet is turned perpendicular.

Also what if the magnet / coil assembly were continuously rotated at some speed between the electric field plates. The signal could be brought out through slip rings for DC or rotary transformer if AC.

Additionally the coil/magnet and capacitor plates would have to be magnetically shielded to prevent earth magnetic field from inducing a current into the coil.

If you have a an idea, better to explain what you expect to see and why, then we can design a really good test experiment that subdues or ignores false positives.

Better to use an oscilloscope or some DA instrumentation to record the low level output.

We appreciate having those that can predict a possible outcome of an experiment, and there are also those here that love to design the experiments hardware / test setup. It is a synergistic combination for testing a hypothesis.

Keep those ideas coming!

Kind regards, ION

Thanks ION
Again, I am the first to admit I am not a hands on experimenter, at least when it comes to EE.
You would know far better than me.  The goal is to simply (easier said than done)  apply
a magnetic field at right angles to an electrostatic field and see if a current is induced.

Your suggestions sounds  great.  The only one that may be problematic is the rotation
of the magnet/coil within the eletrostatic field.  The rotation of the magnet  could
wind up being  good old Faraday induction however the notion of the electric field
being a stator I find to be quite intriguing.  In fact I have to think about that.  
Would this then be Ex-(B/t)=qr? Would this then  cause some type of polarization?
What get's polarized?
Thanks again for the suggestions and the thought provoking ideas.
Lots of intriguing questions on this one.
   

Group: Elite
Hero Member
******

Posts: 1859
I don't believe capacitors and coils are required.

All that is required is a magnet conductive enough to be the positive terminal of a electric dipole. Greater distances between the electric dipoles should be tried.
The reason is that my results showed greater enhancement of the magnet's field the farther it was away from the negative electric pole.

At the time I took it as confirmation of some EMP theory. That being.... Mag and Elec are two sides of the same coin. When one is low the other has higher force. This being understood that a magnet does not produce magnetic force. It only focuses ambient magnetic force. Much like a lens focuses light.

This is why a magnetic field does not rotate around the polar axis of a magnet. Even apparent rotation would require earth orbiting the magnet. Even that would not produce induction as induction requires a change in magnetic field strength, angle and/or polarity.

Anywho.... this was how it was taught in my electronic warfare, counter measures and counter-counter measures class back in the 70's by MIT professors lecturing at the secure facility.  8)
They also taught the same using conventional information but appended that part of the lecture with a suggestion to keep it to ourselves.


---------------------------
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   

Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3044
tExB=qr
I know that high voltage pulses will cause a magnets' magnetic field to "appear" to change violently, but I have not explored this further to determine what was actually occurring. 

I was told by user "spherics" (he went silent a long time ago) that if your pulses are the right pulse rate with high voltage DC pulses the magnet will explode, so I'm not inclined to push my luck.
   

Group: Elite
Hero Member
******

Posts: 1859
I know that high voltage pulses will cause a magnets' magnetic field to "appear" to change violently, but I have not explored this further to determine what was actually occurring. 

I was told by user "spherics" (he went silent a long time ago) that if your pulses are the right pulse rate with high voltage DC pulses the magnet will explode, so I'm not inclined to push my luck.

I can see why a magnet would be under stress when pulsed. When I threw the switch the magnet would jerk a bit but I didn't try pulsing it.


---------------------------
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   
Sr. Member
****

Posts: 266
Would the experiment give better results if the magnet had no electrical conductivity and was used as a dielectric?
   

Group: Elite
Hero Member
******

Posts: 1859
Would the experiment give better results if the magnet had no electrical conductivity and was used as a dielectric?


My attempts included a Neo and a ceramic type. The ceramic magnet measured infinity with an ohmmeter. Both had similar increases in magnetic field density, as measured using a magneto-resistive bridge sensor.

No effect was measured when using a magnet as the dielectric in a capacitor.


---------------------------
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   
Group: Elite
Hero Member
******

Posts: 3465
It's turtles all the way down
My attempts included a Neo and a ceramic type. The ceramic magnet measured infinity with an ohmmeter. Both had similar increases in magnetic field density, as measured using a magneto-resistive bridge sensor.

No effect was measured when using a magnet as the dielectric in a capacitor.

Do you have any numbers for increase in magnetic field strength versus applied HV?

Without numbers, the effect might be buried in measurement noise or interference of the HV with the measuring equipment.

Was the measuring equipment shielded against this?


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   

Group: Elite
Hero Member
******

Posts: 1859
I'll see if I can find the notes. It was a few years ago.

I had the sensor in an enclosed aluminum thin-wall tube with shielded cable all the way back to my bench. The scope didn't register the HV off/on with no magnet present so I doubt the HV skewed the results.
It was necessary to wrap the sensor tube in multiple layers of dry paper to prevent arcing. So, I couldn't place the sensor up tight against the magnet.

The experiment isn't as easy as it might seem.

I don't recall the numbers but the results approached a magnitude higher.

 


---------------------------
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   
Group: Elite
Hero Member
******

Posts: 3465
It's turtles all the way down
I'll see if I can find the notes. It was a few years ago.

I had the sensor in an enclosed aluminum thin-wall tube with shielded cable all the way back to my bench. The scope didn't register the HV off/on with no magnet present so I doubt the HV skewed the results.
It was necessary to wrap the sensor tube in multiple layers of dry paper to prevent arcing. So, I couldn't place the sensor up tight against the magnet.

The experiment isn't as easy as it might seem.

I don't recall the numbers but the results approached a magnitude higher.

 

Thanks for the reply WW, that is well above the noise. I think that is a significant effect. Why did you not pursue it further?


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   

Group: Elite
Hero Member
******

Posts: 1859
Thanks for the reply WW, that is well above the noise. I think that is a significant effect. Why did you not pursue it further?

The experiment was just part of my EMP research. Later, I thought to use the concept in a motor but it was almost impossible to apply. Even the most basic motor +HV only increased the efficiency about 10%. The difficulty was maintaining a positive-only charge field in the motor without the motor frame shielding the charge field.


---------------------------
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   
Group: Elite
Hero Member
******

Posts: 3465
It's turtles all the way down
If there is indeed an increase of magnetic field strength when a HV source is connected to a magnet ( per Grumpy and WW's above claims), then an experiment needs to be performed as follows:

A coil is wrapped around a cylindrical magnet with sufficient insulation between the two. A wire is attached to the magnet only and switched between a HV source and ground, duty cycle and frequency to be determined. A load resistor is applied to the coil, value TBD. One end of the coil is grounded to the HV supply, or a grounded electrostatic shield between coil and magnet is used  to bleed off any electrostatic coupling. The coil leads with load resistor also goes to the oscilloscope or meter.

If the magnetic field increases with the application of the HV field, it should induce a current in the winding that is wound over the magnet.

As the cycle repeats the magnet being applied to HV and then grounded, and the magnetic field increases , then goes to it's former level, it should produce a AC waveform in the coil.

The switched electrostatic HV power used may be less than the coil output power or maybe not, at any rate it would be quite interesting to see if any output is produced.

any thoughts? Grumpy, WW? GFT? Smudge? anyone


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   

Group: Elite
Hero Member
******

Posts: 1859
I found it difficult to separate magnetic field changes with changes caused by capacitive coupling between the magnet+connecting wire to the coil winding.
This is why I wound up using a magnetic field sensor of the magnetoresistive variety. Hall-Effect sensors had unreliable outputs in strong electrostatic fields even when shielded.

Pulses or sudden changes in electrostatic potential were removed from the data because the magnet tended to jerk slightly when voltage was switched on or off.

Unlike the papers presented by Grumpy, my results indicated an increase only when the magnet was the anode only. I used voltages from 20-100kV with enough airspace to prevent current flow/arcing.

Below 20kV the results were so small as to make the data questionable.
Above (I think it was) 60kV the effect sloped off. This was probably due to the environment.



---------------------------
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 1087
If there is indeed an increase of magnetic field strength when a HV source is connected to a magnet ( per Grumpy and WW's above claims), then an experiment needs to be performed as follows:

A coil is wrapped around a cylindrical magnet with sufficient insulation between the two. A wire is attached to the magnet only and switched between a HV source and ground, duty cycle and frequency to be determined. A load resistor is applied to the coil, value TBD. One end of the coil is grounded to the HV supply, or a grounded electrostatic shield between coil and magnet is used  to bleed off any electrostatic coupling. The coil leads with load resistor also goes to the oscilloscope or meter.

If the magnetic field increases with the application of the HV field, it should induce a current in the winding that is wound over the magnet.

As the cycle repeats the magnet being applied to HV and then grounded, and the magnetic field increases , then goes to it's former level, it should produce a AC waveform in the coil.

The switched electrostatic HV power used may be less than the coil output power or maybe not, at any rate it would be quite interesting to see if any output is produced.

any thoughts? Grumpy, WW? GFT? Smudge? anyone

The capacity between magnet and coil gets charged and those charges are spin polarized hence contribute to the magnetic field. But this magneto-electric effect is quite weak.  If you have many turns on the coil you could measure the change in field as a voltage but beware voltage coming from the electric coupling between magnet and coil.  Best to put a screen around the magnet before winding the coil over it and have that screen at earth potential.  The screen must not make a shorted turn and of course it must be insulated from the magnet well enough to withstand the high voltage.  Having that screen will increase the capacitance form magnet to ground and having a high K dielectric is even better.  You can get a handle on the magnitude of the effect by calculating the total charge on the surface of the magnet (from Q=CV) dividing that by the charge of an electron to get the total number of electrons.  Then each electron has a dipole moment given by the Bohr magneton so now you have the total dipole moment.  Divide that by the volume of the magnet and that will give you the effective increase in magnetization M of the magnet.  Multiply by munought and that gives you the increase in Bsat.  Use the load line procedure to change that increase in Bsat to an increase in working B.  Multiply the working B by the cross section area of the magnet to get the change of flux in Webers.  Then from the time scale of the applied HV you can get the rate of change of flux to get volts per turn.

Smudge

Smudge
   
Group: Elite
Hero Member
******

Posts: 3465
It's turtles all the way down
Agreed, Smudge I think a good grounded screen is the best way to go.

I'll try this when I get the equipment together.


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   

Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3044
tExB=qr
When I tested this idea, I had a dime-sized neo magnet about 3 to 6 inches from the face of a "Brooks" wound coil, connected to a free-running avalanche transistor stack at about 2kv, so the pulse rate was several hundred kilopulses per second maybe even over 1 meg.  Pulse width was anywhere from 2ns to 10ns set by a coax delay line on the pulser, as I've tried a few different lengths in that range. (I recall it being a little over a meg when measured on the scope screen, but not sure if I had resistors in-line or not, but somewhere around there).

I did try a coil wrapped around this Brooks coil with 50v from a DC supply applied (limited to 0.5 amps by the supply), and I posted a video (this was several years ago) showing that the voltage increased by about 2 or 3 volts, but I never even looked at the magnetic field or anything other than that voltage increase.  It may well have been just a coupling effect from the fast pulses as the coils were concentrically wound.

I'll have a little time this weekend and will make a quick video (if I can find my camera ???) if I can get it all set up.

Anyway, everyone definitely needs to check this out.
   
Pages: 1 [2]
« previous next »


 

Home Help Search Login Register
Theme © PopularFX | Based on PFX Ideas! | Scripts from iScript4u 2019-04-20, 03:24:36