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Author Topic: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply  (Read 289711 times)

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Steve is still in business, though his broad range of products has narrowed quite a bit.

I use his flashback arrestors on my HHO welding station, never had a bit of problem with them.


"Running on the road"  ???    Definitely not without petrol.  Steve uses his cells strictly as a boost to gasoline.  Never has his vehicle run on water alone.

Dear Matt.

Perhaps if the love affair of such massive " Cubic Inch " engines could be ended or at least reduced maybe he could run solely on HHO ??   :)  Do you know what the CC is on that truck ?

Here in the UK  3 Litre and above is considered BIG !!  I personally run a 2 Litre Diesel BMW M sport, it is more than adequate on our roads. And don't forget we can still legally do 70 mph, aren't you limited to 55 mph ?

That said, thanks for the thumbs up on the arrester I will probably make my own. However Bronze wool is not available here in the UK for some reason  ???  Perhaps THEY don't want us messing with HHO !!  :)

Cheers Grum.


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Dear Matt.

Perhaps if the love affair of such massive " Cubic Inch " engines could be ended or at least reduced maybe he could run solely on HHO ??   :)  Do you know what the CC is on that truck ?

Here in the UK  3 Litre and above is considered BIG !!  I personally run a 2 Litre Diesel BMW M sport, it is more than adequate on our roads. And don't forget we can still legally do 70 mph, aren't you limited to 55 mph ?

That said, thanks for the thumbs up on the arrester I will probably make my own. However Bronze wool is not available here in the UK for some reason  ???  Perhaps THEY don't want us messing with HHO !!  :)

Cheers Grum.

I suspect that Dodge Ram is a 360 cubic inch, much smaller than my 6.7L Cummins Diesel.   :)   Of course mine has 800 ft/lbs of torque.    :D  And still gets 18 MPG with my modifications.   :-X   Plus I have more yet to do to it.   O0

If you poke around Delvis11 videos, you'll find where he road tests that truck and the mileage gains he gets, but I assure you it still has gasoline injected.  It doesn't run on water.

I have one of Steve's bigger flashback suppressors that I'm sure you could make yourself.  It's just a water filter filled with 6mm airsoft pellets and some stainless steel screens.  Works like a charm.
http://www.greenfuelh2o.com/product_p/gf-fb.htm
   

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Hi,

Can somebody explain to me how this cell design works, since there are two large holes
in all his plates?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkMKdNmd-_o[/youtube]

GL.
Its a dry cell-same as i have. One hole go's to the top of the cell to allow the gas to flow out,and the other hole go's on the bottom to allow the water to flow through all the plates. Water flows into the bottom hole,and water and gas flow out the top hole into a water reservoir that is above the cell. The water recycles,while the gas flows to a bubbler.


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Its a dry cell-same as i have. One hole go's to the top of the cell to allow the gas to flow out,and the other hole go's on the bottom to allow the water to flow through all the plates. Water flows into the bottom hole,and water and gas flow out the top hole into a water reservoir that is above the cell. The water recycles,while the gas flows to a bubbler.

TinMan,

Thank you for taking time to answer my question. Since all the holes (the one in the top and the one at bottom)
is common for all the plates in the dry cell, how much leakage current do you get between the cells in the unit?
How much loss in % does the holes in the plates add up to compared to the current usage of a cell design that
does not uses holes in the plates?

GL.
   
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Anybody know the answer to the above posting?
   

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TinMan,

Thank you for taking time to answer my question. Since all the holes (the one in the top and the one at bottom)
is common for all the plates in the dry cell, how much leakage current do you get between the cells in the unit?
How much loss in % does the holes in the plates add up to compared to the current usage of a cell design that
does not uses holes in the plates?

GL.
There is no current leakage around the hole's,as the hole edges are sealed with epoxy resin.
Quote:  compared to the current usage of a cell design that
does not uses holes in the plates?

I must ask-if it is a dry cell,and there are no holes in the plates,the water and gas flow between them how? ???


The whole current leakage thing is another bit of rubbish by the way,as the whole ruddy S/S plate leak's current.You need X amount of current to produce Y amount of gas-and NO ONE has proven otherwise.I have used perforated plate in sted of solid plate,and the gas output for the same P/in was exactly the same.This thing about current leakage is absolute ballony. You need current to make gas,and thats the bottom line.


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There is no current leakage around the hole's,as the hole edges are sealed with epoxy resin.
Quote:  compared to the current usage of a cell design that
does not uses holes in the plates?

I must ask-if it is a dry cell,and there are no holes in the plates,the water and gas flow between them how? ???


The whole current leakage thing is another bit of rubbish by the way,as the whole ruddy S/S plate leak's current.You need X amount of current to produce Y amount of gas-and NO ONE has proven otherwise.I have used perforated plate in sted of solid plate,and the gas output for the same P/in was exactly the same.This thing about current leakage is absolute ballony. You need current to make gas,and thats the bottom line.

Thanks for the answer. The other design is like the one Les posted. Plexiglas with grooves for the plates and the gas
up at the top. So in that design you do not need any holes in the plates or any rubber gaskets.

GL.
   

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Thanks for the answer. The other design is like the one Les posted. Plexiglas with grooves for the plates and the gas
up at the top. So in that design you do not need any holes in the plates or any rubber gaskets.

GL.
As i recall,Les is using 5mmS/S plate that slides into 6mm grooves. Unless he seals the edge of all the plates,he will have a whole lot of this (so called) current leakage around all the plate edges. He is using what is called a flooded cell design. These are old school,and quite dangerous,as they hold a good volume of gas in the top section of the cell,where as the dry cell pumps out the gas with the Elite-very little HHO in the cell at any one time.The dry cells also run the coolest ,as they continually circulate the Elite from cell to tank-some even run the Elite through a small radiator.


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As i recall,Les is using 5mmS/S plate that slides into 6mm grooves. Unless he seals the edge of all the plates,he will have a whole lot of this (so called) current leakage around all the plate edges. He is using what is called a flooded cell design. These are old school,and quite dangerous,as they hold a good volume of gas in the top section of the cell,where as the dry cell pumps out the gas with the Elite-very little HHO in the cell at any one time.The dry cells also run the coolest ,as they continually circulate the Elite from cell to tank-some even run the Elite through a small radiator.

I did spend some hours last weekend studying dry cells. I think the easiest design to build
was the one that uses the bolts (insulated) around the steel plates and rubber gaskets
between the plates. So right now I'm looking for a firm (locally) that can make the plates
for me. The rubber gaskets can easily be cut by hand. (Or maybe cut on a laser cutter?).

Thanks for the information, I learning new stuff every day.

GL.
   

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I did spend some hours last weekend studying dry cells. I think the easiest design to build
was the one that uses the bolts (insulated) around the steel plates and rubber gaskets
between the plates. So right now I'm looking for a firm (locally) that can make the plates
for me. The rubber gaskets can easily be cut by hand. (Or maybe cut on a laser cutter?).

Thanks for the information, I learning new stuff every day.

GL.
Once your up and running GL(and all),here is a simple MMW calculator.
http://www.hho-generator.de/en/hho-mmw-calculator.htm


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Dear All.

One step closer !!

Looking forward to receiving the PCB !!

Les.

Do we have any further info on the transformer ?  I shall probably order from this firm in the UK, they are very, very reliable !!  http://powermagnetics.co.uk/pace-components-home-page

Cheers Graham.


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Grum
What are you going to use to drive that injector?

Cheers
Peter
   

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Grum
What are you going to use to drive that injector?

Cheers
Peter

Dear Peter.

At this moment I have not a clue !!  :)

I do like the old fashioned approach, probably due to my life's work restoring our former work horses !! So perhaps a more mechanical approach for me, timing disc on the camshaft ??

However I am still a long way away from a trial but at least I now have a nice Honda OHV 3Kw single phase gen set to play with !!

Cheers Grum.


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I'm sure some of the other guys are more skilled in the art and can answer that for you then, i imagine a hall sensor with a magnet on the cam shaft and then trigger a monostable to control the pulse width may work, assuming that injector takes a 12V pulse but i would need to look at the datasheet to be sure as i never looked to see how they are driven from an ECU.

Les did mention an ECU, again not looked into that maybe there's another PCB to make  ^-^
   

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Dear Peter.

At this moment I have not a clue !!  :)

I do like the old fashioned approach, probably due to my life's work restoring our former work horses !! So perhaps a more mechanical approach for me, timing disc on the camshaft ??

However I am still a long way away from a trial but at least I now have a nice Honda OHV 3Kw single phase gen set to play with !!

Cheers Grum.
If going mechanical Grum,i would use a push button switch(normally closed) operated from the inlet valve rocker arm. Set it up so as when the inlet valve opens,the switch is in the closed position.


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Peter
Yes there is an ECU and we will be getting that sorted.

thx
Chet

   
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Guys,

The simple reason why some of you are CONFUSED is because you don't READ my files!

How many times do I need to repeat that my WFGP Folders contain 58 files of which 18 are text document files, holding all the necessary information for the project.
I have explained every damn thing to the best of my ability!

Many months ago, the links to my two Dropbox Folders have been published on several Forums but for your convenience, here they are again:

http://goo.gl/ZgF7aS

http://goo.gl/8zY8Um


Those who are seriously interested in this project are required to become familiar with the details.
ASSUMPTIONS, guesses and jumping to conclusions will not do!

Take the ECU issue, for example.  Again, you are confused because you did NOT read my explanations.  My entire WFGP design IS the ECU!!

Unlike an ECU for a car ('black box' approach), mine is spread out over several circuit boards, which, combined, IS the Engine Control Unit. (ECU)

As for the 'mechanical' approach to gain ignition/injection point information from the engine, you may encounter problems.
Again, when you read HOW I gain that information from the engine, you will understand WHY you may have problems mixing the mechanical and the electronic information.

I like to remind you all (again) that engine management has never been simple for ANY fuel!
Period.

Cheers,
Les Banki
   
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I like to remind you all (again) that engine management has never been simple for ANY fuel!
Period.

But it's a WHOLE lot easier on a constant speed single cylinder generator running HydrOxy than a mulit-cylinder Formula racing engine running M85.

Speaking of which Les, any chance you could take a snapshot of your injector arrangement?

I'm having a bit of trouble finding a good angle for the injector with a straight pipe manifold.  Did you use an elbow for your manifold and drill through the top for your injector hole?
   
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Hi GL,

You wrote:
“The other design is like the one Les posted.
Plexiglas with grooves for the plates and the gas up at the top.
So in that design you do not need any holes in the plates or any rubber gaskets.”


Since you are interested to learn more about electrolysis in general and series cell electrolysers in particular, I have addressed this post to you but it is really for ALL who are interested...

(Judging by the number of 'reads' of this thread, there seem to be some interest....!
Because I started this thread, I kind of feel 'responsible' for it and the information posted here!
I try to make sure that ALL information presented here is TRUE and CORRECT!
If not, I EXPOSE false or misleading information and those who post it and I make no apologies for that!)

“So in that design you do not need any holes in the plates or any rubber gaskets.”

You are absolutely correct!

Before you go any further, do yourself a favour by reading my document named:
“HydrOxy-generator 'closed loop' set-up.doc”.
You should also read at least the first two pages of “Re-filling series cell electrolysers.doc” which gives detailed info on plate thickness, grooves, leakage current, etc.

If you REALLY want to understand how series cell electrolysers work, you should STUDY the Patent by its inventor, Dr. William Rhodes.  (US Patent 3,310,483)

I advise you to IGNORE the following comments:
“The whole current leakage thing is another bit of rubbish by the way,...”
and
“This thing about current leakage is absolute ballony.”
and
“As i recall,Les is using 5mmS/S plate that slides into 6mm grooves. Unless he seals the edge of all the plates,he will have a whole lot of this (so called) current leakage around all the plate edges. He is using what is called a flooded cell design. These are old school,and quite dangerous ...”

The above are clear examples of what happens when people refuse to READ the provided info!

After all, my WFGP Folders contain 58 files of which 18 are text file documents,
holding all the necessary information for the project.

Those who are seriously interested in this project are required to become familiar with the details.
ASSUMPTIONS, guesses and jumping to conclusions will not do!

The plates are 0.55mm thick, grooves are 0.6mm wide, 5 mm deep and there is NO need for gaskets or any other type of 'seal' as it is CLEARLY explained by Dr. William Rhodes!

IF you drill just ONE hole in every plate of a 139 cell unit, you know what is going to happen??
Electricity is rather 'weird', as you know!  It always finds the easiest path to flow.
Where the least resistance is.
Say your holes are 5mm in diameter.
Then you have KOH electrolyte of about 20% concentration.  (The saturation point is about 26%.)
20% concentration conducts like crazy!
The result??
A certain portion of your current is now flowing through the holes, DIRECTLY between your power leads, WITHOUT passing through the plates!
It is all common sense.

Current which does not produce gas is a DEAD LOSS!
But according to 'tinman', “current leakage is absolute ballony.”
So what would you like to call this effect??
Do you still think its strange that I use colourful language when I comment on this kind of NONSENSE?? 

How about this one:  “He is using what is called a flooded cell design. These are old school,...”
Oh yes, they are “old school” all right but most (if not all) of the so-called 'dry cells' are nothing but distortions of the original series cell principle and thus mostly unsuccessful in producing looped set-ups.
You don't have to believe any of this. 
Go ahead and build some variant of a 'dry cell' with just a handful of plates, lots of bolts, holes, gaskets and what have you but don't complain if you don't get your generator to loop and produce useful extra power!

And while you are at it, don't forget to fit your automatic refill for 24/7 operation! ;D C.C

Cheers,
Les Banki

   
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Hi GL,

You wrote:
“The other design is like the one Les posted.
Plexiglas with grooves for the plates and the gas up at the top.
So in that design you do not need any holes in the plates or any rubber gaskets.”


Since you are interested to learn more about electrolysis in general and series cell electrolysers in particular, I have addressed this post to you but it is really for ALL who are interested...

(Judging by the number of 'reads' of this thread, there seem to be some interest....!
Because I started this thread, I kind of feel 'responsible' for it and the information posted here!
I try to make sure that ALL information presented here is TRUE and CORRECT!
If not, I EXPOSE false or misleading information and those who post it and I make no apologies for that!)

“So in that design you do not need any holes in the plates or any rubber gaskets.”

You are absolutely correct!

Before you go any further, do yourself a favour by reading my document named:
“HydrOxy-generator 'closed loop' set-up.doc”.
You should also read at least the first two pages of “Re-filling series cell electrolysers.doc” which gives detailed info on plate thickness, grooves, leakage current, etc.

If you REALLY want to understand how series cell electrolysers work, you should STUDY the Patent by its inventor, Dr. William Rhodes.  (US Patent 3,310,483)

I advise you to IGNORE the following comments:
“The whole current leakage thing is another bit of rubbish by the way,...”
and
“This thing about current leakage is absolute ballony.”
and
“As i recall,Les is using 5mmS/S plate that slides into 6mm grooves. Unless he seals the edge of all the plates,he will have a whole lot of this (so called) current leakage around all the plate edges. He is using what is called a flooded cell design. These are old school,and quite dangerous ...”

The above are clear examples of what happens when people refuse to READ the provided info!

After all, my WFGP Folders contain 58 files of which 18 are text file documents,
holding all the necessary information for the project.

Those who are seriously interested in this project are required to become familiar with the details.
ASSUMPTIONS, guesses and jumping to conclusions will not do!

The plates are 0.55mm thick, grooves are 0.6mm wide, 5 mm deep and there is NO need for gaskets or any other type of 'seal' as it is CLEARLY explained by Dr. William Rhodes!

IF you drill just ONE hole in every plate of a 139 cell unit, you know what is going to happen??
Electricity is rather 'weird', as you know!  It always finds the easiest path to flow.
Where the least resistance is.
Say your holes are 5mm in diameter.
Then you have KOH electrolyte of about 20% concentration.  (The saturation point is about 26%.)
20% concentration conducts like crazy!
The result??
A certain portion of your current is now flowing through the holes, DIRECTLY between your power leads, WITHOUT passing through the plates!
It is all common sense.

Current which does not produce gas is a DEAD LOSS!
But according to 'tinman', “current leakage is absolute ballony.”
So what would you like to call this effect??
Do you still think its strange that I use colourful language when I comment on this kind of NONSENSE?? 

How about this one:  “He is using what is called a flooded cell design. These are old school,...”
Oh yes, they are “old school” all right but most (if not all) of the so-called 'dry cells' are nothing but distortions of the original series cell principle and thus mostly unsuccessful in producing looped set-ups.
You don't have to believe any of this. 
Go ahead and build some variant of a 'dry cell' with just a handful of plates, lots of bolts, holes, gaskets and what have you but don't complain if you don't get your generator to loop and produce useful extra power!

And while you are at it, don't forget to fit your automatic refill for 24/7 operation! ;D C.C

Cheers,
Les Banki



Les,

Thanks for the information. I will study the patent this weekend. I have already read most of you documentation, but
will study it more "in the deep" as time goes by. I must add that I'm not a stranger to electronic design, both analog
and digital. I have not build any electrolysis cells, but as I said, I'm here to learn. I was a fisher man in my younger days
so colorful language does not work on me. :-)

GL.

   

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Dear Les.

I am old enough to have seen the transition and evolution of the Motor car, from a time that almost anyone with a modicum of intelligence and some decent tools could repair one !!  Today you plug the damn thing in !!

Please forgive me for trying to keep things simple.

I am not the best with electronics, more with heavy electrics and even better when placed in front of a Lathe !!  :)
I will re read your documents and look forward to building a successful replication.

With respect,

Cheers Graham.


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@ Les
I am baffled as to how you think you have something wonderful,when you have no idea as to what is happening to the flowing current within a cell of any type C.C

Lets have a look at what you said in reply to my comments-wich by the way,you just proved to be correct in your own word's,although i doubt you understand what you actually said your self.

Quote: IF you drill just ONE hole in every plate of a 139 cell unit, you know what is going to happen??
Electricity is rather 'weird', as you know!  It always finds the easiest path to flow.
Where the least resistance is.

Les-could you please tell everyone here what has the least resistance-the resistance across the thickness of your .55mm S/S plate,or the resistance across a .55mm section of the Elite(the hole)?

2nd- Quote: A certain portion of your current is now flowing through the holes, DIRECTLY between your power leads, WITHOUT passing through the plates!
It is all common sense.

Common sense you say. So that current is flowing from where to where? C.C

Here is a little thought experiment for you Les. lets make a 2 plate cell,one plate the anode ,and one the cathode. these two plates are going to be S/S washers !with a hole in the middle Les!. Now lets put them in a jar of Elite,and send some current through them. So please tell me how much current is flowing through the holes Les. That's right-NONE.

Quote: Current which does not produce gas is a DEAD LOSS!
But according to 'tinman', “current leakage is absolute ballony.”
So what would you like to call this effect??
Do you still think its strange that I use colourful language when I comment on this kind of NONSENSE??

Well there is certainly NONSENSE going on here,but it isn't from me Les.This part is a doozy-Quote: Current which does not produce gas is a DEAD LOSS!
But according to 'tinman', “current leakage is absolute ballony.”
 Les-here is a small bit of news for you--> the plates are the only current leakage points in the cell-not the holes. Once again Les,current flows from where to where?

Here is a simple question for you Les.
If we have say a 13 plate series cell,and we remove the middle plate and replace it with a perforated plate(lots of so called current leakage holes)-->will the cell draw more current or less current?-I look forward to your answer on this one.

Here is something interesting. After looking back on my HHO cell note's,the series cell made from S/S perforated plate was 3.4% more efficient than any other cell configuration i made-food for thought.


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Leakage Current within an electrolyzer is a characteristic
of the series cell plate configuration.  It has to do with the
Overvoltage needed to sustain electrolysis once the gases
are evolved at the electrodes.  Holes in the intermediate
plates offer a path for current flow that bypasses the
overvoltage at the metallic plate.

Have you ever noticed that the series plate electrolyzer
tends to operate as a current source immediately after
power (electrolysis current) is cut off?  This is the result
of gas adsorption at the metallic plates.  A surprising amount
of energy exists briefly in that condition.

Quote from: TinMan
If we have say a 13 plate series cell,and we remove the middle plate and replace it with a perforated plate(lots of so called current leakage holes)-->will the cell draw more current or less current?-I look forward to your answer on this one.

The current will increase by a small amount due to
leakage current.  The potential available at that
point in the series string to cause leakage current
is not great.

If more of the intermediate plates were perforated
the leakage increase would be much greater, particularly
if the perforated plates were adjoining.


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Hi Graham,

You wrote:
“Dear Les.

I am old enough to have seen the transition and evolution of the Motor car, from a time that almost anyone with a modicum of intelligence and some decent tools could repair one !!  Today you plug the damn thing in !!

Please forgive me for trying to keep things simple.

I am not the best with electronics, more with heavy electrics and even better when placed in front of a Lathe !! 
I will re read your documents and look forward to building a successful replication.

With respect,

Cheers Graham.


I certainly agree with your statements on cars as well as on simplicity in general! 
I use the KISS principle wherever I can.

HOWEVER, there are cases where simple designs are simply NOT good enough!
More than 30 years ago there was an article in an electronics magazine I used buy regularly, titled:
The PERILS of simple design.”  (I still have a copy of it - somewhere!)
It gave many real life examples where simple designs just could not deliver the desired results!

One such case - which concerns us - is the method of gaining ignition/injection TIMING information from our engines.

I wanted to raise this issue before your post so now I use this opportunity to explain.

This explanation is directed at those who entertain the idea of using 'mechanical' means to gain the TIMING information from their engines.

It is assumed that everyone know that in an engine, ignition and injection occur at different times.
Therefore, TWO signals (pulses) are required from the engine.
From this, it should be clear that ignition pulses cannot be used for injection and injection timing pulses cannot be used for ignition!

Obtaining ignition timing pulses may be relatively simple for those who can do the mechanical modifications to their engines but obtaining injection pulses may not be so simple.

Needless to say, for those who don't want to use injection but have a continuous flow of gas, (at the risk of losing some of it) there is no need for a second signal.
But those will have another problem to solve.
RPM control.

Here comes ELECTRONICS to the rescue!
My design requires only ONE signal from the engine, using a small 'Samarium-Cobalt' magnet glued to the exhaust valve's rocker arm and a Hall switch.  (which is outside the engine!)
You can find detailed explanations in my “Igninje5 circuit description.doc”.
Once you understand how it all works, you will also see HOW a seemingly 'complex' (to some!)
circuit arrangement can easily solve problems which would be difficult to solve by other means!

Cheers,
Les Banki
   

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Leakage Current within an electrolyzer is a characteristic
of the series cell plate configuration.  It has to do with the
Overvoltage needed to sustain electrolysis once the gases
are evolved at the electrodes.  Holes in the intermediate
plates offer a path for current flow that bypasses the
overvoltage at the metallic plate.

The current will increase by a small amount due to
leakage current.  The potential available at that
point in the series string to cause leakage current
is not great.

If more of the intermediate plates were perforated
the leakage increase would be much greater, particularly
if the perforated plates were adjoining.


Thanks for the answer muDped-now we are getting some where.
You are of course right,and with that comes the next question.
Now that we know that by having holes in the neutral plates allows more current to flow(commonly known as current leakage!!incorrectly!!),and that current is delivered to the cell by the positive plate(first plate),and continues out through the negative plate(last plate)(using conventional current flow),can you please tell us if those two plates without the holes in them will be producing more gas,or less gas?-now that a higher current is flowing through them.

My point is this-->the MMW will be the same with or with out the plates with holes in them,as the holes are a current path,NOT a current leakage.The dry cell is the best design so far,as there is no large area in them to store the HHO gas.The Elite is also continually circulated,which helps in keeping the cell temperature down.

I'm not saying that Les's cell isn't an efficient cell,in fact,it will be just as efficient as a dry cell. The only thing i don't like about them is that they have a large area to store gas,and the Elite can slosh around in the top half of the cell. You could of course add baffles,but that doesn't eliminate the large gas storage area.If by some chance you get blow back to the cell,and that cell has(i think it was) 2LTRs of HHO at a pressure of 21 psi-what do you think the result would be :o

I guess it comes down to what you think will be cheaper and easier to build. Do you have the machinery to build a cell such as Les's-machineing .6mm groves in plexiglass so as they are all exact. Then being able to glue all the cell walls,bottom and seal the top so as it's all water tight at a pressure of 21 psi. Or would it be easier to drill some holes in S/S plates,and bolt the whole thing together with rubber gaskets between the plates.

I shouldn't have posted this in Les's thread-i should have made a thread for this topic. So i wont be cluttering this thread with any more about cell design or this current leakage stuff.

I have the board and injector on the way-thanks to Chet.I also went a purchased a brand new 3Kw generator for the project. So from here on in,i will be building just as Les has specified,and we will see what we end up with.

My apologies Les for cluttering up your thread.

Brad


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