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Author Topic: Interesting Transformer Effect  (Read 14876 times)

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This is a very simple effect to replicate which seems to show more power coming out from the DUT than that going into the DUT.
I also do not know how one coil winding can ring while the other dose not-as they are both wound on the same former and core. The secondary coil that is driving the LED also retains the voltage across it for twice the time period than that of the primary winding.

By adjusting the duty cycle and frequency,it would seem that we can change the bulk of the current flow direction.
The first video is just running through the DUT-with a little teaser of what is to come in the second video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8enRKKAyg0
« Last Edit: 2015-03-02, 20:45:11 by Peterae »


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Below is a couple of scope shot's,along with the schematic. It is interesting how we can get the secondary(blue trace) to ring while the primary(yellow trace) dose not-even though the two coils are wound together on the same former. You will also notice that the voltage potential across the secondary is present for about twice the time period as the primary-->even though the secondary is the current source for the LED.


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Whoa pony.   Are you sure that transformer is actually a transformer or is it a fixed autoformer?  With only three leads coming out, I'm thinking it is a simple center tapped inductor.

If it is actually a transformer, is the 110 side wrapped near the core or is it wrapped around the secondary?  Or are the two windings split like a MOT?

If you have boxes of these, a tear-down of one of them would be good info to have.
As i stated and showed in the video,it is a 2:1 transformer with common neutral/ground.They are used to drop 240VAC to 120VAC for various types of equipment that come from the USA.
« Last Edit: 2015-03-02, 20:45:58 by Peterae »


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  Very interesting scope shot and observations, TinMan.  I'm also working on "anomalous transformers" on my bench, but not using an xformer off the shelf!    

  
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2:1 transformer with common neutral/ground

Manufacturer?  (if that might be significant here)
« Last Edit: 2015-03-02, 20:46:19 by Peterae »
   
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 From Tinman
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Overunity transformer effect.
« on: Today at 09:36:24 »
   Reply Reply with quote
This is a very simple effect to replicate which seems to show more power coming out from the DUT than that going into the DUT.

Until actual measurements of power in vs power out have been presented and it has been replicated and verified by peers, I think the claim "Overunity" in the thread title is a bit premature.

Since you have used all off the shelf parts in the circuit and there is nothing exotic needed, please specify all part numbers etc. so that others may attempt replication.

Also please show how you are measuring power in vs power out to make the claim.

Kindly observe the forum guidelines as outlined by Poynt99 in "Power and Creed"

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?board=30.0
« Last Edit: 2015-03-02, 20:46:42 by Peterae »


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... .-.. .. -.. . .-.
Hehey, let's hope the buyer at your workplace keeps ordering the wrong stuff !

Would a line of thinking be, that the short sharp shocks are messing with the voltage to current lag difference ?
As I understand it, the Primary will collapse faster than the Secondary.
It can be imagined that all transformers will display the effects being noted, dependent on duty cycle, frequency, resistor and cap used to tune up.
Looking forward to part 2.
« Last Edit: 2015-03-02, 20:47:03 by Peterae »


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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
I agree ION,

The words "Overunity" and "Free Energy" in the title should be avoided unless someone is making a substantiated claim.

I'll have Peter change it to something more appropriate. ;)

.99
« Last Edit: 2015-03-02, 20:47:25 by Peterae »
   

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I've changed the thread title, it can be changed back as soon as Tinman posts the data to back up his claim.  O0
   

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I'll cut you some slack for now, but my request still stands.   :-X
You'll cut me some slack?-have you been promoted to big boss man or something?
I dont need your slack cutting, and what I stated is correct-did you not see the  transformer in the video with all the details included. This go's for anyone else that wants part name and numbers-they were all in the video. I also make it clear that the title said overunity effect, and make no claim to some wonderous device.

As I stated in the video, the first was to go through the setup, and the second would show the full effects. But it seems that some are far to impatient to wait until I get time to post the second video before jumping down my throat.

So I will now be ending this thread, as my avaliable time dosnt seem to meet the expectations of others-and there is nothing I can do about that

Cheers


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  Yeah, I don't know where you can or will post your ideas and observations Brad, but hoping you will do so somewhere.  I was very much looking forward to your part 2 and I appreciate your insights and work.
  Sorry it ends here, this way.  Hoping actually you will reconsider.

Quote
As I stated in the video, the first was to go through the setup, and the second would show the full effects. But it seems that some are far to impatient to wait until I get time to post the second video before jumping down my throat.

So I will now be ending this thread, as my avaliable time dosnt seem to meet the expectations of others-and there is nothing I can do about that


   
   
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@Poynt99
Quote
The words "Overunity" and "Free Energy" in the title should be avoided unless someone is making a substantiated claim.

I claim that I do not accept your usage of the terms, I also claim you do not understand them. You cannot just lump "Overunity"-- more energy than is known to be present in the same context as "Free Energy"-- Energy which is inherently free of the man-made concept of money. That is completely rididulous and completely out of context as well as counter-productive.

In my opinion lumping the two together is both unscientific and unprofessional and my fellow Engineers would seem to agree with my view point. I asked them point blank -- do you believe in free energy or energy which has no inherent cost?,  all responded -- yes. So I really have to question your motivation here Poynt, why you keep lumping a "something from nothing" proposition such as OU in with "all nature sources of energy" such as Free Energy including many sources most do not understand.

Here is the problem Poynt, I have an antenna and a small circuit with an Earth ground and I light an LED. No big deal and it's pretty obvious to me whats going on but then all my friends got all excited and said I have broken the laws of physics and getting something from nothing. At which point I had to explain to them that the circuit simply harvests electrostatic energy due to the wind, ionization, as well as stray RF signals... nothing new. However I had to think why am I always held to account for their ignorance?, Energy is Energy and most intelligent people should understand it is everywhere in everything. I mean I have to laugh when people say this is not true because I can easily tear any credibility they think they may have to shreads without even breaking a sweat.

So I will put the question to you Poynt -- name one place anywhere in the universe devoid of energy?. Obviously you cannot and as you may know the rest of the universe does not subscribe to the absurd concept of money therefore all that energy out there outside this screwed up little blue ball is free...free energy. We know it is so why do you keep prostituting the term Energy as if it is something mysterious and beyond our grasp when it is the most natural thing in the universe. I really do not care about OU as the whole construct is absurd but when you malign Energy then as a Power Engineer your on my turf and I find your language offensive to intelligent people everywhere.

AC



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This topic caught my attention and I just had to model the circuit in LTspice.  

I approximated some values of the inductance to get the approximate cycles in one period.  The attenuation is not as drastic as Tinman posted.  

V1 is measured on top of L1, and V2 on top of L2 in the diagram.  Both probe voltages are referenced to circuit ground.

The red trace is current through L1.

Notice what is happening (observe red trace).  

The short pulses charge up the core with flux faster (steeper ramp) then when it discharges, which is why we see a longer duration for V2 before it begins to oscillate.

[edit:]  oh, and the V2 voltage is flat right after the pulse, because the LED clips it, or starts forward conduction (threshold voltage is reached).  Below that value it acts a bit like a capacitor with some resistance so it's a damped tank circuit in conjunction with the L2 inductance.

EM
A clasic example of how a simulator dosnt correctly represent the real world DUT.
How is it the ringing of the secondary on the sim remains a constant voltage throughout it's oscilations?,and dosnt ring down as it dose with my real world device. The current trace on the sim is also an incorrect representation of a real world device,as there is no ringing of the current going into the device. The current pulse is exactly the same as the voltage trace across L1-primary coil.

You only have to look at the sim scope shot and the scope shot i posted of the DUT to see the difference between the two.


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In the sim, the LED model makes the most difference in how the ringing comes out.  

This model is approximate, obviously, but it does illustrate the longer duration V2 voltage right after a pulse.    The ringing down is not as rapid because the LED model I used has less resistance than what your actual LED probably has.  I'm currious, did you measure the inductance of the transformer coils?  

EM
I have no inductance meter,so i haven't measured the inductance.
Please understand that i have just started out on this project,and wish only to show an effect with the DUT. I guess I'm asking that you don't jump the gun as others have done,and give me time to show what i have. I might also add that the topic heading i gave was accurate to what I'm trying to show(overunity transformer !!effect!!),and i in no way implied that i had an OU device as some misconstrued.


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You have an oscilloscope, a function generator and some known capacitors and resistors, therefore you can measure the inductance. In fact, the inductance is being "measured" by that nice ringdown on your oscillograms.  


There are other ways as well:

http://www.dos4ever.com/inductor/inductor.html

http://www.tek.com/dl/75W_28152_0_MR_Letter.pdf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01Ebd6eR7Lw

(This time it's not one of my videos, although I also have covered this topic!)

In fact it can be even simpler that all of those ways. The ringdown that you see is at the resonant frequency determined by the inductance and capacitance of the tank circuit that is ringing. So you can simply make a parallel tank circuit by putting a known capacitance in parallel with your unknown inductor, "strike" it with a pulse from the FG and read the frequency of the ringing. Then solve the Resonant Frequency equation for the Inductance, using the known capacitance and the measured ringing frequency:

http://www.1728.org/resfreq.htm

That's the way my simple Arduino-based inductance meter does it, and it gives values that agree with the readings from my actual commercial ProsKit inductance meter over a wide range of test inductor values.
   
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I agree with TinMan here -- 
Quote
Please understand that i have just started out on this project,and wish only to show an effect with the DUT. I guess I'm asking that you don't jump the gun as others have done,and give me time to show what i have.
 O0
I might also add that the topic heading i gave was accurate to what I'm trying to show(overunity transformer !!effect!!),and i in no way implied that i had an OU device as some misconstrued.

Perhaps we need some slow-burn fuses around here -- give the man some time and space!
   
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Hi Tinman,

With all due respect I would like to submit a simulation which I believe is relatively close to your actual circuit operation. I would also like to offer my opinion regarding the reject transformer you are using in the circuit which I'm sure you are already aware of.  A more accurate sim could be produced with measured parameters of that transformer and what I used for reference was a higher VA isolated step up transformer to gain some reasonable parameters to use in the simulation.

The attached "Auto Wiring" schematic shows what should be the correct wiring of the step down autoformer in Fig 1 and the incorrect wiring in Fig 2.  The Fig 2 wiring makes a tightly coupled bucking coil arrangement that would not work properly as a step down or up transformer. Your circuit waveform polarities and connections support the wiring connections of Fig 2.

Attachment "Tinman Xfmrx6" shows the schematic and plot over 6 cycles which does seem to agree with your circuit waveforms for the most part.  The ringing across the secondary in your circuit is influenced by the source resistance of your generator (~50 ohms judging by the droop in your input voltage waveform), the winding capacitance's plus LED capacitance, and the core losses.  The core in this sim is linear so no losses are present to accommodate for this. To do a nonlinear cored transformer for this simulation is no trivial matter!

The last attachment shows 1 cycle of the stabilized periodic function of your circuit after 1400 cycles.  Energy calculations are shown in both joules and watts in the output file and the formulas used are in the body of the schematic.  I chose to use differential measurements on the LED to eliminate any possible errors from assuming that point "OutB" is always stable but as it turns out, it is stable as can be seen in the plot.

I am curious to see your updated information and plug that into the sim and compare notes on the differences if there are any.  I would also like to say that circuit simulation is only as good as the models used but if used properly, simulation offers many advantages to circuit design and testing IMO.

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Oops, I see two attachments didn't make it so I'll try again!

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From partzman:

Quote
I am curious to see your updated information and plug that into the sim and compare notes on the differences if there are any.  I would also like to say that circuit simulation is only as good as the models used but if used properly, simulation offers many advantages to circuit design and testing IMO.

I would like to add that the following would also be helpful to enable a better simulation:

DC resistance of the primary
DC resistance of the secondary
Inductance of primary (secondary open)
Inductance of secondary (primary open)
Leakage inductance of the primary (secondary shorted)
Leakage inductance of the secondary (primary shorted)
Distributed capacitance derived from major self resonance frequency

Note also that the diode was discovered to be in the wrong location on the schematic. This was revised in the second video schematic. You may want to change your simulation schematic.

As in most switched inductors or transformers, when the voltage on the secondary drops below the clamping effect of the load, in this case the LED, ringing ensues. This is quite normal operation for a switched inductor, as the remaining energy has nowhere to go, so is dissipated by ringing out through the distributed capacitance, damped by the resistance.


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ION


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Ion-

Thanks for pointing out the 2nd video and the diode connection.  I agree on the needed transformer data for a more accurate simulation!

TinMan-

I've watched your 2nd video and thank you for sharing these results.  The transformer is obviously bifilar wound which would result in a rather large inter-winding capacitance and low so called leakage inductance.  This normally would not be good transformer design IMO for this type of transformer operating at the voltages it would see due to the possibility of breakdown between windings where the voltage differential or stress is the highest.

Also IMO, the effect you are seeing with the negative current and resulting negative voltage across R1, may possibly be explained by the negative offset that your signal generator has as evidenced by the negative several hundred millivolts showing on the input trace.  With higher duty cycles (~10%), the positive or "on" portion of the cycle creates an average that is >0 but with lower duty cycles (2-3%) the average is <0.

In regards to the large secondary ringing as compared to the primary (there is a slight amount of ringing in the primary), even though the leakage inductance is small (~500uH in my sim with a K factor of .999) the AC ringing voltage in the secondary has this leakage inductance in series with the low output impedance of the generator when reflecting back to the primary.  The could possibly result in the low amplitude of primary ringing.

partzman

   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
@ AC  :D

Your opinion/rant is noted.

Surely by now you must realize what most people in this community mean most of the time when the phrase "free energy" is used? If not, so be it.
   
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@EM

Thanks for you comments! The symbol used for "Iin" is a voltage source set at 0 volts. This makes a no loss current sensor equivalent to using an ideal current probe
in a circuit.

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Hi Tinman,

With all due respect I would like to submit a simulation which I believe is relatively close to your actual circuit operation. I would also like to offer my opinion regarding the reject transformer you are using in the circuit which I'm sure you are already aware of.  A more accurate sim could be produced with measured parameters of that transformer and what I used for reference was a higher VA isolated step up transformer to gain some reasonable parameters to use in the simulation.

The attached "Auto Wiring" schematic shows what should be the correct wiring of the step down autoformer in Fig 1 and the incorrect wiring in Fig 2.  The Fig 2 wiring makes a tightly coupled bucking coil arrangement that would not work properly as a step down or up transformer. Your circuit waveform polarities and connections support the wiring connections of Fig 2.

Attachment "Tinman Xfmrx6" shows the schematic and plot over 6 cycles which does seem to agree with your circuit waveforms for the most part.  The ringing across the secondary in your circuit is influenced by the source resistance of your generator (~50 ohms judging by the droop in your input voltage waveform), the winding capacitance's plus LED capacitance, and the core losses.  The core in this sim is linear so no losses are present to accommodate for this. To do a nonlinear cored transformer for this simulation is no trivial matter!

The last attachment shows 1 cycle of the stabilized periodic function of your circuit after 1400 cycles.  Energy calculations are shown in both joules and watts in the output file and the formulas used are in the body of the schematic.  I chose to use differential measurements on the LED to eliminate any possible errors from assuming that point "OutB" is always stable but as it turns out, it is stable as can be seen in the plot.

I am curious to see your updated information and plug that into the sim and compare notes on the differences if there are any.  I would also like to say that circuit simulation is only as good as the models used but if used properly, simulation offers many advantages to circuit design and testing IMO.

partzman   
Partzman
Thanks for taking the time to experiment with this simple device. I am wondering if you can run the sim from a 1 to 3% duty cycle, and show the voltage polarity reversal on the cap/resistor combo?
Cheers


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@TinMan

This is my latest simulation result, see below.   I'm now getting closer to your results from the second image you posted (where you run 3 V pulses for 12 us.)    


I'm still not fully pleased with the square pulse shape.  It's droop during the ON time, or slope of top portion, seems to be steeper than yours, so it still needs some work. (I probably have too low of primary inductance so current ramps up too fast and I see that voltage drop due to the 50 ohm series resistance in the source probably)   The ringing also seems to take a larger negative swing then in your plot, so maybe the diode and LED models I have are still not accurate enough.  We could really use some more info, e.g.  resistance of windings, exact inductance values etc..  It's ok if you don't have time, I'm just saying what would improve the sim.  

Note:  Improvements I made were the addition of 50 ohm series resistance to the source (saw that in partzman sim) then I adjusted the coupling factor higher which make a world of difference.  I now use k=0.998, so it's assuming a tightly coupled transformer.


EM
Hi EM
The sim looks very close--good job. I just got home from work,and it's now 11pm here-been a long day. I cant give you the inductance just yet,as that will take me time to learn from the video's TK posted(thanks TK),but i do have the resistance values for you if that helps. Primary is 44.2 ohm's,and secondary is 111.3 ohm's-Hope that helps out some.
Now,while your playing with that sim,are you able to get the voltage to revers polarity on the C1/100 ohm resistor combo?.

Also something else i have found that seems a bit odd.
I have tried 4 different transformers with steel cores,and all have the effect of being able to reverse the voltage polarity on the cap,and reverse the bulk of the current flow--we get the negative current reading on the DMM.-->one transformer i cannot get to ring at any frequency,and that is the MOT. But i also tried 3 different transformers of the same configuration,but with ferrite core's,and i cannot get any of them to show the reversing voltage across C1,or the reverse current flow on the DMM ???
Im leaning toward the idea that this is because of the slower rate of magnetic field decay in the steel laminated transformers. Do you think it possable that this slower decay rate of the magnetic field in the steel laminated transformers would be the cause of a longer current output after the SG switches to 0 volt's each cycle?.


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@EMdevices

@partzman

I forgot to mention, but the Lp and Ls in your circuit seem to be the same, set at .68h   

Tinman mentioned the transformer is a 2:1 ratio, so shouldn't one of the inductances be 4x the other?   (inductance is a function of N^2)

EM

For some reason my first response didn't post so I'll try again.

Yes, you are correct if this were an isolation transformer but being an autoformer, both windings should be equal in turns, inductance, and DCR for a 2:1 or 1:2 ratio.

For sake of economy the manufacturer chose to wind the coil bifilar but the problem with Tinman's rejects is that an assembler doing the final lead-out terminations
mis-wired the connections as I indicated in my reply #20.  I came to this conclusion after viewing Tinman's scope shots in his reply #2.

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@TinMan

Hi EM
The sim looks very close--good job. I just got home from work,and it's now 11pm here-been a long day. I cant give you the inductance just yet,as that will take me time to learn from the video's TK posted(thanks TK),but i do have the resistance values for you if that helps. Primary is 44.2 ohm's,and secondary is 111.3 ohm's-Hope that helps out some.
Now,while your playing with that sim,are you able to get the voltage to revers polarity on the C1/100 ohm resistor combo?.

Also something else i have found that seems a bit odd.
I have tried 4 different transformers with steel cores,and all have the effect of being able to reverse the voltage polarity on the cap,and reverse the bulk of the current flow--we get the negative current reading on the DMM.-->one transformer i cannot get to ring at any frequency,and that is the MOT. But i also tried 3 different transformers of the same configuration,but with ferrite core's,and i cannot get any of them to show the reversing voltage across C1,or the reverse current flow on the DMM ???
Im leaning toward the idea that this is because of the slower rate of magnetic field decay in the steel laminated transformers. Do you think it possable that this slower decay rate of the magnetic field in the steel laminated transformers would be the cause of a longer current output after the SG switches to 0 volt's each cycle?.

Errr, I missed on my analysis of the transformer you are testing as it is obvious it has a 2:1 winding ratio!  The winding resistances are extremely high for an 80 watt rated xfmr.  The poor regulation would render it basically useless in and around the 80 watt level.

Anyway, I finally got my bench cleared off and ran a test of your circuit using a Stancor P-8640 isolation step up transformer. The specs are considerably different than the one you have used but I was looking for the possibility of generator offset as the cause of your anomaly.

I used a Tek AWG2021 for the generator and set the output at a slight offset for the scope shots below.

TM_10 shows a 5kHz pulse at 10% duty cycle.  CH2 shows the voltage across the 200ufd cap at +264mv mean.  The lack of ringing in the CH3 (pink) trace which is the output across the LED is due to the lower self capacitance of the Stancor construction as compared to your autoformer IMO.

TM_2 shows the same pulse with a 2% duty cycle and now the voltage across the 200ufd cap is -106mv mean.

I am not familiar with the generator you are using but a simple test would be to measure the generator output offset during the test.  Your earlier posted scope shots did seem to show some negative offset as I recall.

Saying all this is not to state that you are not experiencing some anomaly that should be investigated further. What would be helpful would be the test results that had this same effect with the different laminated cores you tried.  Perhaps these can be replicated.

partzman   
   
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