rectifier into 5U4?

Author Topic: rectifier into 5U4? (Read 74386 times)

darkspeed	Re: rectifier into 5U4? « Reply #75 on: 2010-06-18, 04:12:17 »
Hero Member Posts: 812	Iv never done a tube in a sim... do you have to sim a voltage / current to the filament for it to work?

poynt99

Re: rectifier into 5U4? « Reply #76 on: 2010-06-18, 04:26:32 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...

Most tube simulation models do not include the heater filament, and when they do, it is only a dissipative element. It has no effect on the tube model operation.

.99

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poynt99

Re: rectifier into 5U4? « Reply #77 on: 2010-06-19, 16:14:37 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...

Simulating semiconductor-generated noise may not be easy. I'll try a few things, as AF and KF are not normally included in diode and BJT SPICE models, although they can be. Coming up with numbers for these parameters, and whether this will actually cause output noise is the question.

From Raghuram, R. - Computer Simulation of Electronic Circuits:

.99

rectifier into 5U4?

sim_noise.gif (48.48 kB, 624x754 - viewed 1006 times.)

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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

Lindsay Mannix

Re: rectifier into 5U4? « Reply #78 on: 2010-06-19, 22:20:32 »

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The real point that im trying to show here is that simulators are only for "convential" known design paramaters.

the tube here is a 12ax7 " on th bench" it matters not what tube or what zener .

Convential circuits simulate well but just a simple zener does not , except in conventional mode.

A tube also does not similaute well when we build a simple circuit on the bench , then expect the simulator to help us with anything other than gain and biasing in conventional mode. The mode that transistirs do better in.

Of course we could make those paramaters ...If known. Noise, of couse would have to have a floor and a ceiling , so they would never be real.

Our tools have limitations . The reality of the bench, especially with what we are all trying to do here WILL NOT simulate.

To quote a well known cereberal masturbator " we are looking for known , unknowns"

I hope I have made the point clear ..no Pun intended

Please do it on the bench and use the devices recommeneded as a first stage .

Any other device regarding SM tpu will need lots and lots of luck , and you will never understand what happened let alone repeat it .

been there done that... as have many of you .

BUT, otto's drawings are your base .

for 5 years I have been the megssenger for this small and vital piece of advice HELLO !

I have failed to date perhaps?

It wont be long before tubes are all gone from everybody's thinking .. of should i say programming?

Lindsay

Lindsay Mannix

Re: rectifier into 5U4? « Reply #79 on: 2010-06-19, 22:59:53 »

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Something To clarify

Almost all information passed by myself from Steven was only ever to enable the effect to be rediscovered ..It was not intended to create the video version of the tpu..BUT the initial aha moment at witch there would be no doubt about the energy available. That has always been seen as a reasonable request by him.
He has express doubt that any body will replicate using ss as the circuits are far more complicated and propriety.

BEP

Re: rectifier into 5U4? « Reply #80 on: 2010-06-19, 23:14:53 »

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You haven't completely failed.

Gotta noisy tube amp? Insert a variable resistor in the heater line. Crank the voltage down - slowly. The quality of the sound may actually improve.

I doubt that 'heater starvation' is in any simulator.

Working on my 'adjustable winding position ring transformer' now.

BTW: When I said 'variable resistor' above... Use Ohm's Law and figure heat radiated. This one couldn't handle the current so another was used. I can just imagine somebody smoking a volume control from rat-shack

Lindsay,

In the communication about tubes and mention of voltages and current.... do you think the transposed use of 'mv' instead of the expected 'ma' was a typo by SM or yourself? SM doesn't sound like someone who would make such a mistake and I don't know what method was used to put the text on the site (cut&paste, retype?).

rectifier into 5U4?

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Lindsay Mannix	Re: rectifier into 5U4? « Reply #81 on: 2010-06-19, 23:37:26 »
Jr. Member Posts: 77	of course .. he apolagised for that. correct about the zener current , limiting is required in " reality"

BEP

Re: rectifier into 5U4? « Reply #82 on: 2010-06-20, 00:24:07 »

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'Zener'?

I assumed the reference to a silicon rectifier may have eluded to the noise generating part which can happen with almost any diode. I don't recall the posted text including 'zener'. I've had interesting results with 'snap-off' or step recovery silicon types, along with the noise.

My assumptions are he probably stumbled upon the SRD function of silicon diodes because I can easily believe the pulse from step recovery could be used in any TPU. I've read 'scientific' arguments about the total power not equaling total accounting of power.

Of course, a current limiting resistor just goes with a silicon rectifier replacing a tube

ion

Re: rectifier into 5U4? « Reply #83 on: 2010-06-20, 02:48:23 »

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It's turtles all the way down

Hi Lindsay

Quote

It wont be long before tubes are all gone from everybody's thinking .. of should i say programming?

I for one will keep collecting and building with tubes. Recently bought a batch of several hundred at an auction for $5. Included 5U4's and some 6BQ7's, lots of other power tubes. My collection is in the thousands.

I'm gonna dig up that 885 gas tube and build the Fairbairn oscillator just for old times sake. I found the Fairbairn patent.....1952. Here it is:

pat2607897.pdf (441.28 kB - downloaded 364 times.)

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Lindsay Mannix	Re: rectifier into 5U4? « Reply #84 on: 2010-06-20, 13:39:26 »
Jr. Member Posts: 77	ION that sure is a "tube frequency source" good one !

poynt99

Re: rectifier into 5U4? « Reply #85 on: 2010-06-20, 13:55:32 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...

An update on modeling semiconductor noise in SPICE:

The AF and KF parameters will work in diode and BJT SPICE models, but the results obtained can only be viewed using an AC noise analysis in SPICE. No noise signal will be seen using a transient analysis.

If you want to "see" noise in a transient analysis, the noise has to be generated as a source, i.e. from a random number generator, PWL source, or ABM source.

.99

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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

Grumpy

Re: rectifier into 5U4? « Reply #86 on: 2010-06-22, 16:13:11 »

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Quote from: ION on 2010-06-20, 02:48:23

Hi Lindsay

I for one will keep collecting and building with tubes. Recently bought a batch of several hundred at an auction for $5. Included 5U4's and some 6BQ7's, lots of other power tubes. My collection is in the thousands.

I'm gonna dig up that 885 gas tube and build the Fairbairn oscillator just for old times sake. I found the Fairbairn patent.....1952. Here it is:

From Moray King:

Quote

ION-ACOUSTIC OSCILLATIONS

The real proof that the zero-point energy could become an energy source can only come from a repeatable experiment. The above discussion suggests that the motion of a plasma's nuclei might be an effective transducer for interacting with the ZPE.

The coherent oscillations of nuclei in a plasma is known as the ion-acoustic mode, and it has been associated with anomalous plasma behavior including run-away electrons (28), anomalous heating (29-31), anomalous resistance (32), and high frequency voltage spikes (33-35). Could these anomalies be associated with a direct ZPE interaction manifesting a macroscopic vacuum polarization (36)?

The inventor T. Henry Moray (37) stressed the importance of ion oscillations in the plasma tubes of his invention that produced 50 kilowatts of anomalous electrical power in the 1930's. His well-witnessed invention could not be explained with the physics of that time, and puzzled all the scientists who investigated his device.

Lindsay Mannix

Re: rectifier into 5U4? « Reply #87 on: 2010-06-22, 23:12:29 »

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Quote from: poynt99 on 2010-06-20, 13:55:32

An update on modeling semiconductor noise in SPICE:

The AF and KF parameters will work in diode and BJT SPICE models, but the results obtained can only be viewed using an AC noise analysis in SPICE. No noise signal will be seen using a transient analysis.

If you want to "see" noise in a transient analysis, the noise has to be generated as a source, i.e. from a random number generator, PWL source, or ABM source.

.99

It is clearly demonstratabe that pn junctions , when reversed biased create high noise ..every one of them.
It is not what we might usually want but ..please a 10k resistor , a zener or a led or a transistor ,scope it ...see the noise !

we shunt it away with caps and filters to get rid of it. Those dirty ss devices than Steven pointed out are every where in our circiuts and are NOT what we want for pure frequency.
Feedback is used to keep it down too.

Simulators are useless as they assume we will design with convention in mind .

That said, a noise generator, like petare has shared can be useful for finding resonance points in coils that we might other wise miss.

But only one source per circuit and clean after that .

we would not want distortion and noise in our frequency correction signal at the exact moment that we needed to use it would we?

If we knew exactly waht we were doing we might be able to put up with delays and noise and regenerate it at the right phase,even if it was a bit late and messed up by the pn junctions...that is privided that they did not just sut down because of the field generated by the device.

http://www.physorg.com/news162132202.html

« Last Edit: 2010-06-23, 05:50:11 by Lindsay »

Peterae

Re: rectifier into 5U4? « Reply #88 on: 2010-06-23, 11:17:11 »

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Quote from: Lindsay on 2010-06-17, 13:30:40

Here is a tube based noise generator that I cannot get to run in simulation, but works in practice.

Poynt was only trying to help you understand your simulation problem by explaining how Noise can be simulated, he was only trying to help so dont knock him, Simulation is a great tool for understanding the circuits we need to build and get working to produce our end goal.

I am not saying that a sim would show OU, who knows but it certainly shows how to build working electronics for our drivers and to understand whats going on in conventional terms.

otto

Re: rectifier into 5U4? « Reply #89 on: 2010-06-23, 11:42:55 »

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Hello all,

here a little story for you:

I was yesterday in my friends lab. He is a profi researcher and has the best meters, scopes, PCs that you can buy. Of course he is educated to use all of this.

He wanted to simulate what I have shown you: a MOSFET driven with 2 JFETs. He is not working with spice but he told me that his program is much better. I laught because...

And in a few minutes we had the result:

square waves from a 555 into 2 JFETs, 1 N and 1 P channel.

Output was again the same square waves, maybe more positive or negative, it doesnt matter.

I was like an idiot laughing again.

At home I made the same setup on my workbench.

Result:

square waves with kicks!!

Can a simulation program simulate the dirt in a SS?

No?

Then why are you not listening to Lindsay or do you think he is not qualified enough? Ha!

Yes, but its much easier to simulate then to work on a workbench

Otto

Peterae	Re: rectifier into 5U4? « Reply #90 on: 2010-06-23, 12:18:53 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 4698	Lindsay was the one trying to simulate the noise, Poynt tried helping him to do it?

otto	Re: rectifier into 5U4? « Reply #91 on: 2010-06-23, 12:53:44 »
Newbie Posts: 30	@Peterae its OK but what I wanted to say is that a simulation program doesnt work for a TPU. Especially not for pulsed coils and it seems for all pulsed SS. It would be to easy to simulate and then to build a TPU. Otto

poynt99

Re: rectifier into 5U4? « Reply #92 on: 2010-06-23, 14:43:00 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...

Thanks Peter.

This was all probably a misunderstanding.

I assumed Lindsay wanted some assistance trying to get a simulation to work, and I posted my findings on it. At no time did I ever assume this exercise was related to OU nor to kicks in the TPU. It was simply an engineering exercise to see if it was possible to simulate a white noise generator using semiconductor junctions using SPICE.

I think some may have assumed differently. We've been through the simulation saga before and I think we all agree that simulation and OU are mutually exclusive entities. It should be clear that the two don't mix, and whenever I use simulation, it is for engineering purposes. I hope it isn't taken any other way. Consider this saga closed

.99

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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

Grumpy	Re: rectifier into 5U4? « Reply #93 on: 2010-06-23, 15:18:50 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 4265 tExB=qr	simulation "did" show that the bifilar experiment produced a compressed pulse, which is pretty good

giantkiller

Re: rectifier into 5U4? « Reply #94 on: 2010-06-23, 17:34:18 »

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Frequency equals matter...

I believe this is another way to 'spike' the coils.

Quote from: Grumpy on 2010-06-23, 15:18:50

simulation "did" show that the bifilar experiment produced a compressed pulse, which is pretty good

Also, the noise sits in 2 places. One is the SS ckt and two is in the ring itself. These both are connected by the floating ground. The natural resonance of the coils would reject the noise while preserving the slim bandwith of operation, 5khz. The noise in the ring would be fedback to the ground thus stimulating the SS ckt into hyperjack. And on it goes. This is where I am heading next. The floating ground creates a capture ckt where without it we get spewing i.e. the GK4 RE episode and others.

'Hyperjack' is new term I came up with. What do you all think? It is the opposite of standard noise filtering. I will use this new term when talking about 'chaotic coercion' in my dissertations like I have a PHD. LOL.

I am sure its all been done before.

Since the TPU is floating 'Where does the noise go?'.

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Grumpy	Re: rectifier into 5U4? « Reply #95 on: 2010-06-23, 17:40:08 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 4265 tExB=qr	noise may show the effect, but it will be chaotic What "floating ground"? Ground is deternmined by direction of flow which is determiend by fields and windings

giantkiller

Re: rectifier into 5U4? « Reply #96 on: 2010-06-23, 17:59:43 »

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Frequency equals matter...

By 'floating' I mean as the device sits in space magnetically. There is no way to exclude the noise but to use it. We have to! It is in the circuit therefore in the field. And would there not be accumulative harmonics as the noise bandwith heterodynes with itself, the natural frequency or determined frequency and the previous spikes/captures/filtering of the ramping up scenario?
Looks to me like the 'Stumbled upon' is an alternative specificational clause. This still looks like an audio feedback loop but not frequency specific at the start. The 5khz is the baseline bias that all the noise heterodynes into. The thumping is the 'Woot'(text exclamation term).
Starting to look like a shitty Rodin coil.

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Grumpy

Re: rectifier into 5U4? « Reply #97 on: 2010-06-23, 18:22:55 »

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Quote from: giantkiller on 2010-06-23, 17:59:43

By 'floating' I mean as the device sits in space magnetically. There is no way to exclude the noise but to use it. We have to! It is in the circuit therefore in the field. And would there not be accumulative harmonics as the noise bandwith heterodynes with itself, the natural frequency or determined frequency and the previous spikes/captures/filtering of the ramping up scenario?
Looks to me like the 'Stumbled upon' is an alternative specificational clause. This still looks like an audio feedback loop but not frequency specific at the start. The 5khz is the baseline bias that all the noise heterodynes into. The thumping is the 'Woot'(text exclamation term).
Starting to look like a shitty Rodin coil.

"Harmonics" has nothing to do with it. Nothing what-so-ever. Like SM said: the energy comes from within the device, and it's just knowledge of the coils and how they interact - kudo's to SM

Noise is just that - noise. It is not controlled or directed. It's all over the place at the same time. This makes it worthless for control reactions.

giantkiller

Re: rectifier into 5U4? « Reply #98 on: 2010-06-23, 20:24:31 »

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Frequency equals matter...

To me this next statement is far reaching and profound:
The noise in solid state is equivalent to the field usage in the tube based configuration. In others words in a feedback loop based on SS you get distortion. In a tube circuit the fidelity adds to the feedback causing equipment destruction.
We are simply talking about two different transmissive mediums. Attempts to switch this around results in no effect. No noise in tubes and no fidelity in Solid state. So now look at the different configurations again and tell me what you all see.
Fidelity, spark gaps, SS switching. These all have there own coil configurations and processes. This is the starting point for any TPU one has seen and this is the progression of SMs device builds. He is an audio engineer, no?

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Lindsay Mannix

Re: rectifier into 5U4? « Reply #99 on: 2010-06-23, 20:56:26 »

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Petare, I agree with you 100%.
No knocking intended at all there.

I see the process as Order out of chaos, chaos being , in this case noise ..let the ring create order by giving it 3 sources of chaos . The experimental starting point .

The kind of noise that most all ss creates all the time is not the kind of noise a triode creates .

Just trying to point out the relevance of the sparce info in context .

Deliberately create noise with dirty ss. then let the bottles clean it up with the assistance of the rings interactions.

The noise would be the "stumble upon" means to the reaction ..the tickler ..which im pretty sure Petare had , is the power , AND the sync source for the process to continue .

So, I see see the noise as a random wide band frequency sweep 3 sources. Only then look for reactions ..next step would be interaction isint that one of the the first things Steven said ?

Something specific to experiment with at the very least and does allow "multiple frequencies to combine with the circumference of the collector"

Petare's experiments should have us heading this way or something similar to it .