N.R.M.R.E. An investigation. V.2

[TinselKoala]

"Interesting" is what people say about Modern Art when they are too embarrassed to say what they really think.   

Here's something really "interesting": With no loads at 2.0 volts input and pot all the way down (high resistance)  the current draw is about 440 mA. With the neon connected the current draw _drops_ to around 200 mA, and with the further load of the LED+resistor on the Charger output, the current draw drops down to about 180 mA.  Do you think if I put even heavier loads on it, the current will eventually drop to zero?  I can haz cheezburger now?       (The "Overunity Asymptote")


TIP-35C, no loads. This is about the closest I've gotten to "HV Radiant". 1.74 kV p-p before the output FWB.

[JimBoot]

"Interesting" is what people say about Modern Art when they are too embarrassed to say what they really think.   

Here's something really "interesting": With no loads at 2.0 volts input and pot all the way down (high resistance)  the current draw is about 440 mA. With the neon connected the current draw _drops_ to around 200 mA, and with the further load of the LED+resistor on the Charger output, the current draw drops down to about 180 mA.  Do you think if I put even heavier loads on it, the current will eventually drop to zero?  I can haz cheezburger now?       (The "Overunity Asymptote")


TIP-35C, no loads. This is about the closest I've gotten to "HV Radiant". 1.74 kV p-p before the output FWB.

What happens if you short it?

[TinselKoala]

I dunno, I'll have to try it the next time I fire it all up. Maybe something will blow up! That would be exciting, I haven't exploded a transistor in quite some time. Wear safety glasses!   

[Grumage]

Dear TinselKoala.

Thank you for pursuing with this circuit. I have a couple of questions.

What is the reason/cause for this " berserk mode " or " package mode " where the output changes from a continuous oscillation into the mark/space oscillation?

Why did my circuit run with the base connection removed and display a sinus wave rather than a spiked one?

I'll close with a quote from Nelson.

" but near the input of the circuit near the capacitor C5 maybe people should consider search by negative resistance theme and will find better explanation to i use the neon bulb."

What do you think he's referring to?

Kind regards, Graham.

[TinselKoala]

Dear TinselKoala.

Thank you for pursuing with this circuit. I have a couple of questions.

What is the reason/cause for this " berserk mode " or " package mode " where the output changes from a continuous oscillation into the mark/space oscillation?

There are several capacitors that store and release power at various timing rates, and I suppose that at very particular settings of input power and Base resistance (pot setting), as well as changing transistor characteristics due to heating and maybe even partial degradation, these cap discharge/charge cycles interact to produce the "package" oscillation groups. I have seen this kind of thing in Joule Thiefs before. This present circuit is very sensitive to input power and pot settings as you know, and there seem to be dozens of different waveforms it will make as conditions are varied. I have learned how to make most of them consistently by now. So it is "unstable" but consistently unstable, in that one may repeat any particular waveform with the right input power and pot setting. If you have current-limiting on your power supply, the point where this sets in also has an effect on the overall performance of the circuit.

Why did my circuit run with the base connection removed and display a sinus wave rather than a spiked one?

I don't know, I haven't been able to reproduce this phenomenon. But as I've already demonstrated this circuit is sensitive to EM radiation in the nearby environment and it is possible that it was picking up some signal from something in your lab. It might also be possible that the Darlington transistor's second Base which is internally connected to the Emitter through an internal resistor might have been causing some oscillation even though the first transistor's Base was disconnected by you. In my build I've put a switch in series with the Base and I frequently turn this switch off and on to see if I can get the same thing happening, but so far not. I do recall that one of my Joule Thiefs showed this behaviour at one time too but I never tracked it down and now I don't even remember which JT it was (I have dozens of different ones scattered around the place buried under years of other projects.)

I'll close with a quote from Nelson.

" but near the input of the circuit near the capacitor C5 maybe people should consider search by negative resistance theme and will find better explanation to i use the neon bulb."

What do you think he's referring to?

Kind regards, Graham.

I have no idea, but I've grown tired of trying to interpret NR's proclamations and I wish he would just come out and say what he means in words that I might be able to understand. He's a big tease, or perhaps a "fisherman" casting bait,  and I have little patience for that kind of thing.

I've probed all around the circuit and even hard-connected a neon as you suggested earlier and found nothing, neon didn't light up anywhere except on the output of the HV transformer. I even had a neon installed from Collector to Emitter, in the style of He Who Cannot Be Mentioned Here, to protect the transistor from excessive Vce spikes but I never saw it flash, even though the scope shows spikes that exceed the neon's strike voltage,  so I've now removed it.

Now I have a question for you: Is this "package" mode, or burst oscillation mode, in fact the "Berserk" behaviour that several people have referred to with this circuit? How do we know?



Once again, I apologize if I've rubbed you the wrong way, but I must reserve the right to be sardonic at times. I wouldn't be me otherwise.

Cheers mate--
--TK

[ion]

Excellent work TK

Maybe this will also help:

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=602.msg9543#msg9543

If not just disregard.

P.S. kinda why I don't get to excited about these things.

[Grumage]

Now I have a question for you: Is this "package" mode, or burst oscillation mode, in fact the "Berserk" behaviour that several people have referred to with this circuit? How do we know?
Cheers mate--
--TK

Dear TinselKoala.

Yes. I think it is and your explanation makes sense. Thank you.

Once again, I apologize if I've rubbed you the wrong way, but I must reserve the right to be sardonic at times. I wouldn't be me otherwise.

Those that know me well also know that I'm a carer, my dear wife's condition is a slow but downward spiral. We're not looking for sympathy but please understand that my time is getting more and more limited as each day passes by. This is why I was so grateful when Chet managed to press for your services, a simple explanation into the curious circuit behaviour we had seen last year.

Typically " Sods law " crept into the equation.... Chet's.... " The perfect storm " and the proverbial hit the fan !!

I have a very selfish attitude, my 15 years spent in this area of research is for one reason only, to keep our home warm, cheaply. The 2 KW PV installation has helped a little, we have generated 1.3 MW over 12 months, but I need something that goes 24/7.

Ok, that's enough " Heart surgery " we all have our off days, don't we?

Cheers Graham.

[ion]

Apparently it is not you TK but I that have seemed to cause great offense on this forum as my posts go largely unnoticed or uncommented, even when very revealing to the subject at hand.

I spent a lot of time on these blocking oscillator circuits and posted the "quirks" over 6 years ago on my bench.

I referred to that  a couple of posts ago, reply #105 and this was the link referred to:

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=602.msg9543#msg9543.

Not a peep.

Scattered through the pages, I also tried to give a skillful analysis of the circuit problems. This was never acknowledged but often regurgitated in various forms.

Oh well someone has to be the blame for all the rucus besides Zephir.

Guess I've gone invisible mode. Good to be in black sheep mode again. As appropriate, I will exit this thread stage left.

It's not tragic, just disheartening.

Regards

[Chet K]

apologies for horrid writing below [I can't really see to well ATM

well
It would seem the direction has changed focus to Pancake coils or Bifilar coils.

and one specific area to investigate is Partzman's MEI work .

will be nice to get some others up to Speed on that as well as Tinmans recent investigation.

Tinsel has tentatively agreed to do a replication on his bench of Partzman's MEI work ,
for discussion here in appropriate thread [all necessary bits will be shipped soon]

and the work will be shared at other open source Venues too.

[Grumage]

Apparently it is not you TK but I that have seemed to cause great offense on this forum as my posts go largely unnoticed or uncommented, even when very revealing to the subject at hand.

I spent a lot of time on these blocking oscillator circuits and posted the "quirks" over 6 years ago on my bench.

I referred to that  a couple of posts ago, reply #105 and this was the link referred to:

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=602.msg9543#msg9543.

Not a peep.

Scattered through the pages, I also tried to give a skillful analysis of the circuit problems. This was never acknowledged but often regurgitated in various forms.

Oh well someone has to be the blame for all the rucus besides Zephir.

Guess I've gone invisible mode. Good to be in black sheep mode again. As appropriate, I will exit this thread stage left.

It's not tragic, just disheartening.

Regards

Dear ION.

I have been trying to work on a reply to your last post, please don't blame yourself, far from it !! My wife has had a few bad days, really bad today. But no, to be honest you make such valid points it's like stating the obvious, if you understand what I'm saying ? And I'm not being derisive here.

I'm the " rookie " here and I'm truly grateful for the likes of you and others but I found myself being hurt a little. Just a bad day !! And sometimes there's also this problem with language " across the pond " too.   

Kind regards, Graham.

[Grumage]

apologies for horrid writing below [I can't really see to well ATM

well
It would seem the direction has changed focus to Pancake coils or Bifilar coils.

and one specific area to investigate is Partzman's MEI work .

will be nice to get some others up to Speed on that as well as Tinmans recent investigation.

Tinsel has tentatively agreed to do a replication on his bench of Partzman's MEI work ,
for discussion here in appropriate thread [all necessary bits will be shipped soon]

and the work will be shared at other open source Venues too.

Thanks for the " heads up " Chet.

Who knows might just bring the two together !!   

Cheers Graham.

[Room3327]

Apparently it is not you TK but I that have seemed to cause great offense on this forum as my posts go largely unnoticed or uncommented, even when very revealing to the subject at hand.

I spent a lot of time on these blocking oscillator circuits and posted the "quirks" over 6 years ago on my bench.

I referred to that  a couple of posts ago, reply #105 and this was the link referred to:

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=602.msg9543#msg9543.

Not a peep.

Scattered through the pages, I also tried to give a skillful analysis of the circuit problems. This was never acknowledged but often regurgitated in various forms.

Oh well someone has to be the blame for all the rucus besides Zephir.

Guess I've gone invisible mode. Good to be in black sheep mode again. As appropriate, I will exit this thread stage left.

It's not tragic, just disheartening.

Regards

Please don't feel that way Ion, I think I speak for everyone here when I say we truly appreciate your posts.  You generally say what needs to be said especially when it comes to electronics, usually after your posts nothing else needs to be said so we are quite.  You have an amazing amount of electronic knowledge and I for one Thank you for sharing it with us.

[JimBoot]

I love youse all

[Chet K]

we use to have Group Hugs at Stefan's...there were some "incidents" 



Ditto Jimmy's comment [I did not know he was from The Bronx

[TinMan]

Apparently it is not you TK but I that have seemed to cause great offense on this forum as my posts go largely unnoticed or uncommented, even when very revealing to the subject at hand.

I spent a lot of time on these blocking oscillator circuits and posted the "quirks" over 6 years ago on my bench.

I referred to that  a couple of posts ago, reply #105 and this was the link referred to:

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=602.msg9543#msg9543.

Not a peep.

Scattered through the pages, I also tried to give a skillful analysis of the circuit problems. This was never acknowledged but often regurgitated in various forms.

Oh well someone has to be the blame for all the rucus besides Zephir.

Guess I've gone invisible mode. Good to be in black sheep mode again. As appropriate, I will exit this thread stage left.

It's not tragic, just disheartening.

Regards

Dear ION

I think you know that you have been my main mentor here on this(and the other) forum.

I comment on your posts,when i know or understand what you are talking about.
You must remember-im a mere mechanic ,not an EE--so most of what you say,is well above my pay grade.

But i am learning,and it's guys like you that are doing the teaching.

Now is a time we need you,on the bifilar thread.
I think im doing it right-but the OU results say otherwise--well,at least until proven to be.

Check it out-all associated scope shots with position diagrams,and let us know whats going on here?


Brad

[TinselKoala]

There is no such thing as a "mere" mechanic! Those of us who love engines and machines and love wrenching on them beg to differ. We are the people that keep the world's cars running, keep the world's airplanes flying and even their bikes biking. If your car starts... thank a mechanic--- a Great mechanic!

   

[TinMan]

There is no such thing as a "mere" mechanic! Those of us who love engines and machines and love wrenching on them beg to differ. We are the people that keep the world's cars running, keep the world's airplanes flying and even their bikes biking. If your car starts... thank a mechanic--- a Great mechanic!

   

Lol,yea ,i know.

They say if there is no truck's,the world stop's.
No mechanic's-no trucks.

Back to the horse and cart 

Brad

[ion]

Thanks for all the kind comments. Sometimes I guess paranoia can creep in.

Right now I'm twisting bolts on a B&S 11 HP with a blown head gasket. I get my hands greasy a lot trying to keep all the engines running around here, 7 or more not counting the chainsaws, autos and backup generators.

Once upon a time when solid state ignition modules would burn out on my chainsaws and small engines, I would try designing my own. I even built a rig with a DC motor driven flywheel and magnets to test designs, first in the lab, then on the engines.

But first I researched every small engine solid state points replacement patent that I could find before trying to reinvent the wheel..... due diligence you know. This is an interesting adventure in transistor design, since the only power source you have is the spinning magnets.

Maybe not to derail this thread (which I have already done) I will post some of that on my bench. (if anyone is interested)
It doesn't really relate to OU except for making HV sparks with spinning magnets appropriately timed, but is an interesting challenge to build a module that works properly and has automatic spark advance.

Point is. I do get my hands greasy very often but when it comes to IC engines, there are quite few on this forum that are my mentors, and Graham is at the top.

Thanks again
Kind Regards

[Grumage]

Dear ION.

I wouldn't worry too much about " derailment " at this moment in time. Let's just see what comes from the BiFi department!   

Nelson, most certainly is using them.....   

http://overunity.com/17220/n-r-m-r-e-an-investigation/msg504275/#msg504275

I thank you for your compliments but my area of engine expertise is more ancient I would rate Brad a serious contender too.

Magnetos, lovely things, I have some very early Bosch 19 ought period horseshoe magnet ones, they still work, never been touched.... 

You are referring to CDI ( capacitive discharge ignition ) if I'm correct ? Now here's one for you. Was Tesla the " true " inventor. Igniter for gas engines patent ?

I still prefer " Hot tube ignition " myself....

Cheers Graham.

[ion]

Dear Graham

Yes, Brad has extensive engine skills and I think Chet was an aviation mechanic at one point, and is always rebuilding some engine. I'm sure there are others that I have not named so please chime in if you are out there.

You are referring to CDI ( capacitive discharge ignition ) if I'm correct ? Now here's one for you. Was Tesla the " true " inventor. Igniter for gas engines patent ?

Some are CDI where the capacitor is charged to a high voltage from a separate winding on the magneto, then the capacitor is discharged at the appropriate time into a low turns count winding to generate the spark.

Another type uses a transistor that is held on (like the points dwell time) which allows current to build in the core winding until the appropriate moment when the transistor is allowed to open, then the spark is produced. The tricky thing is that it is all done with just the magneto powering the circuit, holding the transistor on and turning it off.....no external power source for timing control.

I don't know anything about Tesla's Igniter patent, but HV sparks was right up his alley.

Regarding Nelson's bifilar pancake coils, he doesn't use them in the mini exciter, so if the mini exciter is a teaching principle / learning tool towards some better end result, it has left out the main ingredient.

Regards

[Grumage]

 

[TinselKoala]

Not only Chet but I too am a licensed aircraft mechanic ( now called in the USA "Aviation Maintenance Technician" which sounds like you should be able to keep your hands clean... but still can't.)

I worked for years for a company called Schneck Aviation, where we did complete overhauls of all the common horizontally-opposed piston engines found in light aircraft (and even the Goodyear Blimp which uses 2 counterrotating Continental engines). And I do mean complete. Total stripdowns even removing all paint, replacing all seals and gaskets, align-boring cases, turning cranks, chroming and re-honing cylinders, etc. And run-in on the Test Cell before releasing to customer. Which was my job: accept engine from buildup mechanics on the nose stand, take the engine and mount it to test cell with all temps and pressures and everything monitored, run in according to a time/RPM schedule, and most importantly, FIX any and every discrepancy noted on the test stand. Everything from leaking seals to bad magneto timing to mechanic installed wrong camshaft....

And later I worked Quality Assurance at Gary Aerospace where we did the same thing to big Radial engines, including up to PW4360  Wasp-Major.



We built firewall-forward quick engine change packages for the Israeli Air Force, EMP-hardened, for their forward air control aircraft, among other things. Then they put _me_ in charge of the Test Cells there too.

https://vimeo.com/16117810

The guy with the flashlight looking for leaks... that could have been me, I even sort of look like that.

Then I worked for Mooney Aircraft at their Delivery Center here in SAT for a couple of years till they folded. That was nice, working on brand new airplanes sometimes not even painted yet, and supporting the owner pilots during their 25 hour conversion training and burn-in period at FlightSafety.

And in my spare time I overhauled VW engines for fun and profit. And just for grins, my girlfriend's 1956 titty-pink Cadillac, which dropped a valve at speed and totally destroyed most of the engine, ruined a head and bent three connecting rods. That was fun, pulling that big v-8 engine with an A-frame in her driveway, and later seeing her in overalls, all greasy, helping me to slip the pistons into the cylinders once we got the case back from the machine shop where they sleeved 3 cylinders and resurfaced the heads etc. Locating all the needed replacement parts was a trip in itself.

That's why I just laugh when someone accuses me of having dirty fingernails in a video. Wimps, they can't even use the right kitchen knife to tighten a screw on baby's pram.

[ion]

TK, I did not know that about you, very impressive indeed. 

What is needed is a good test stand to vet claimed FE devices.

Regards
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Graham

Looks like that patent uses a battery. Does it predate Kettering?

Regards

[TinselKoala]

Well, as you can probably tell I do use that "test-stand" approach when I look at these things. My circuit layouts are deliberately designed so I can easily get to and replace every part if necessary, change things around, whatever. That's why I don't use pad-per-hole prototype boards until much later in the process, if ever, and I build almost like the schematic layout, with power legs on top and bottom and the "action" happening between the legs... er.... well, you know what I mean.

[Grumage]

Oh yeah baby.....

Slippy pistons.....