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2019-03-24, 05:34:03
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Author Topic: Electromagnetic Archimed's screw  (Read 2220 times)
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I think it is interesting to note that the large Hendershot device uses custom made single layer cylindrical capacitors in close proximity to the specially wound coils as a necessary part of it's operation.

Logic seems to infer that if this dielectric / magnetic interaction were not somehow involved in the operation of the device, those custom capacitors could have been located elsewhere and substituted with a normal capacitor. (i.e. if only capacitance was required)

Also of note, the so called "basket weave coils" are of much tighter serpentine action than radio coils of basket weave construction of the early radio era where inter-winding capacitance was to be minimized. This (Hendershot method) produces a much longer path length for the wire and adds resistance, therefore lowering "Q" contrary to the normal radio requirement of a high "Q" coil. So what could be it's use?

Lack of success by replicators of the device may be partially attributed to the fact that none (that I know of) actually filled the small space between the coils and cylindrical caps with a mixture of paraffin and microphone carbon, as Hendershot did. Check images of replicators on the web compared to the original.

As usual, there are many fakirs out there with rigged demo's and selling plans that don't work.

Sorry if this observation seems to derail the thread, but I think it is related. We do have a thread for this device. Delete if necessary.
« Last Edit: 2019-01-24, 13:16:27 by ion »


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It's likely related, and you gave the key: "none (that I know of) actually filled the small space between the coils and cylindrical caps with a mixture of paraffin and microphone carbon, as Hendershot did". A conductive dust included in an insulator can give a good dielectric. I'll take a closer look at it.



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I think the electric field and its perpendicular orientation to the magnetic field are more important than the dielectric. 

That said, I'd look at the TPU.
   
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I've been hearing about the TPU for over 10 years, but I don't see anything coming. I see a lot of setups (underunity) but a lack of details about the underlying principle. I'm not getting into this without a guiding idea.

Nevertheless the "perpendicular orientation to the magnetic field" is ensured in my setup. When a current flows through the ferrite, it creates looped magnetic field lines around the electric field lines (around the current), so this B field is perpendicular to the current. Therefore, the charges in the current are subjected to their own magnetic field. This causes the skin effect, see here. Since a ferrite has a high permeability and the current flows through it, the B field should be strong, and so must be the skin effect in ferrites, i.e a transverse current.

I am first interested in the elementary phenomena that an idea suggests, and if after experimental verification they prove to be effective, then we can start in more important things like TPU. Not before, that's my method.  :)


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I am first interested in the elementary phenomena that an idea suggests, and if after experimental verification they prove to be effective, then we can start in more important things like TPU. Not before, that's my method.  :)

The mechanism of operation that you can experimentally determine and then expand on, here it is:

Apply very short HV positive pulses to an air coil with many many windings.  Place a magnet near this coil and even though a negligible magnetic field is produced by the coil, the electric pulses will cause the magnet to move violently.  This is very similar to the bifilar speaker coil event that Steven Mark discovered that led to the TPU.   If your pulses are short enough, you will convince yourself that it is not a magnetic interaction.  Further experimentation will show that the magnetic field can become much stronger than what the magnet produces.  It's not DC in this test because it varies wildly.

The next step is to try to utilize the effect.



   
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It's just a recipe with lots of artifact possibilities.
What is it to prove?
What is the underlying idea?


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It's just a recipe with lots of artifact possibilities.
What is it to prove?
What is the underlying idea?

That a moving electric field, orthogonal to a static magnetic field induces a current.

Isn't that what you were looking for in the beginning of this discussion?

Note that this is absent from accepted, incomplete physics. It is defined and analyzed by Johnson's in his Gyroscopic Force Theory, but very few have even heard of it.

Of course everyone who tries the simple magnet experiment doesn't know why the magnet reacts so strongly.  It takes a lot more experimentation to determine this.  You could also repeat the bifilar voice coil (for a audio speaker) arrangement that Steven Mark claimed led to his TPU's, but you need the ns delay to get the pulse compression. 

Most never get past this discussion, because they don't think it will work, and dismiss the idea.
   
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So as not to further disrupt this thread, may I recommend that we move further discussion of TPU effects and how they may have been created to this thread:

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3584.0

Dear F6FLT, you may not have seen this thread as you were not a member when it was created, but it outlines one possible path (of a few) to  TPU investigations and why all results to date have ended in failure. If you have the time, please give it a look of at least the first page.

Regards


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That a moving electric field, orthogonal to a static magnetic field induces a current.

Isn't that what you were looking for in the beginning of this discussion?

Not exactly. See "experiment 1" here: http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3690.0;attach=30404

An AC electric field E is producing a current I1 in a dielectric along the x-axis.
An AC B field perpendicular and synchronous with E is oriented along the y-axis.
I expect a current I2 along the Z axis due to the Lorentz force. This current being proportional to the product B.I1 must have a DC component as well as a strong signature by a signal at a frequency twice that of I1 and B (sin²).

But this can't work, because in a dielectric the Lorentz force acts on both positive and negative charges. Both kind of charge moves in the same direction, but as they have opposite sign, their current is canceled. We can see mechanical effects but not electrical effets.
Now the idea is to create an imbalance of charges to avoid the I2 cancelation. That's why I tested conductive ferrites.

Quote
Form a varying magnetic field in phase with a transverse and synchronous B field

Note that this is absent from accepted, incomplete physics. It is defined and analyzed by Johnson's in his Gyroscopic Force Theory, but very few have even heard of it.

Of course everyone who tries the simple magnet experiment doesn't know why the magnet reacts so strongly.  It takes a lot more experimentation to determine this.  You could also repeat the bifilar voice coil (for a audio speaker) arrangement that Steven Mark claimed led to his TPU's, but you need the ns delay to get the pulse compression. 

Most never get past this discussion, because they don't think it will work, and dismiss the idea.

It's surely interesting to test and probably I will if the TPU had just been presented. But he's over 10 years old! What more could I bring? After so many experimenters and activity around the TPU, no one has yet drawn any conclusions?



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So as not to further disrupt this thread, may I recommend that we move further discussion of TPU effects and how they may have been created to this thread:

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3584.0

Dear F6FLT, you may not have seen this thread as you were not a member when it was created, but it outlines one possible path (of a few) to  TPU investigations and why all results to date have ended in failure. If you have the time, please give it a look of at least the first page.

Regards

Thanks for the link, Ion.
If all results to date have ended in failure, why believe that there is something that could work?


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in a dielectric the Lorentz force acts on both positive and negative charges. Both kind of charge moves in the same direction

Hi F6FLT,

I have question, why you assume that charges move in dielectric ?
Isn't it dielectric because charges are fixed, so no current is possible.
Did I miss something ?

Regards,
-V.


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Thanks for the link, Ion.
If all results to date have ended in failure, why believe that there is something that could work?

Dear F6FLT

You have a good point, however I personally believe that most folks have been traveling already well worn paths, hence they will not uncover new modes.

Bibhas De infers "The Foundation is the Frontier" and in the basement of the physics ediface are experiments that have been shrouded or otherwise covered over and ignored as they do not fit into the existing framework of the establishment.

This is not to say that the existing framework is wrong, as it has brought us many wonderful inventions, but it may be incomplete or have some interesting unexplored areas.

My long study (12 year) of the TPU of SM and it's history timelines etc. has compelled me with the desire to study the basic laws of electrodynamics and try to understand them more clearly.

 The normal electrodynamic paths are well traveled and I seriously doubt they will reveal any violations of current laws of thermodynamics.
Most pulsing of coils etc seems to lead to null experiments, as most seem to treat the TPU as an exotic Faraday transformer. They will get nowhere IMHO.
 
A viable gain mechanism a priori must be the basis of a hypothesis.

When we have looked at nearly all the known means of induction and production of current flow in a conductor, we then need to back up and rethink.

If the TPU has done nothing more than that, it was worth the exercise, but I am a mere beginner, there are others on the forum far more advanced in understanding electrodynamics  than I.

Of all the FE devices, The TPU is still the main one that intrigues me especially because of it's history, how it came to be known, how it came to disappear, and precisely because of all the unsuccessful replications.

I can point to numerous supporting data why I believe it was real and only a very few reasons why I also believe in some instances it could be faked . So it keeps me exploring, and maybe while pondering these things I may accidentally hit on some method that may be helpful, perhaps even unrelated to the basic quest.

At age 73, I suppose one might say "there's no fool like an old fool".

Regards

P.S. Other devices of interest: Coler, Moray, Hendershot, Colman-Gillespie etc. and experiments in LENR, however I look with a jaundiced eye at 99.9% of the FE claims out there. It's the 0.1% that gain entry to my door.
« Last Edit: 2019-01-25, 21:18:53 by ion »


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Dear Ion,

I understand your point of view, rational and constructive, and I respect it. I think mine is close, the only difference being that I am a little more skeptical. In addition, I have the language barrier that slows me down in research: for example, I see that there are hundreds of articles and videos on the TPU (most of which I suppose are useless), but where Steven Mark's original work is located? I don't know, for me it's like looking for a needle in a haystack.

So I became more selective: if after 5 years a thundering announcement has remained unsuccessful, without duplication, or if a discoverer only presents videos but no paper where he synthesizes his work, with reproducible experiment diagrams to support it, I drop it.

On my side, it was not the TPU but the Naudin's lifter that made me reconnect with the physics I had studied a little when I was a student. The lifter works, I built one, it's conventional but it works, so why shouldn't the MEG also on the Naudin site work? And so I took up physics again and reviewed electromagnetism, relativity, and QM (and understood the MEG absurdity and Bearden's "crackpotness").

Of the people you mentioned at the end, I only kept Coler. In fact, Von Unruh was probably the thinking head. I gave up for lack of information to reproduce the device and lack of ideas on its possible principle of operation, although I think that the observations attested by several were real and that the "Magnetstromapparat" did produce unexpected effects.

In nine years I'll join you in age. Uh, no, you'll be ahead again!
 ;)
François


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F6FLT
You said:
 
Quote
I see that there are hundreds of articles and videos on the TPU (most of which I suppose are useless), but where Steven Mark's original work is located? I don't know, for me it's like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Yes, most of the stuff on youtube and the web has wandered far and gotten very lost from the original knowledge base. There are many "faked" videos on youtube by people seeking attention. One person in particular had a following and has charged admission to his private group, but the work was fruitless after many years.

We can help with that, should you get interested in it. This site has folks very knowledgeable and experienced in TPU research, and I believe the founders and some long time members of this site came out of that very search.  This is not to imply that we know the operating mechanism, but we may know where not to look.

If you have any specific questions, post them in the topic thread or pm me.

Regards.


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The mechanism of operation that you can experimentally determine and then expand on, here it is:

Apply very short HV positive pulses to an air coil with many many windings.  Place a magnet near this coil and even though a negligible magnetic field is produced by the coil, the electric pulses will cause the magnet to move violently.  This is very similar to the bifilar speaker coil event that Steven Mark discovered that led to the TPU.   If your pulses are short enough, you will convince yourself that it is not a magnetic interaction.  Further experimentation will show that the magnetic field can become much stronger than what the magnet produces.  It's not DC in this test because it varies wildly.

The next step is to try to utilize the effect.

Excellent advice :)

Though I think the reason so many have trouble replicating effects is because high voltage and modern electronics generally do not play well together.

You either end up pushing the envelope of your FETs with 1000v nanosecond pulser circuits, or using 20kv+ power supplies to drive a deivce that has to be measured from well across the room.
It is hard to walk the HV--silicon tightrope.

F6FLT: the most interesting experiments I've made were from users recommnding simple tests like this.  I'd suggest starting there.
 I spent 2 months on the bench just measuring coils made with different types of wire because GK suggested Iron was a better antenna than copper (it did not make sense, but he was 1000% right).
   
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 I spent 2 months on the bench just measuring coils made with different types of wire because GK suggested Iron was a better antenna than copper (it did not make sense, but he was 1000% right).
at what frequencies would iron be better and what is the relationship between "coil" and "antenna"?



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F6FLT

Going back to your first post,it would seem that the DUT i posted in the !new observations! thread perhaps belongs here.

To recap--
So the idea is to take a length of thick copper wire(in this case the core wire is 1mm),and wrap that length of wire with a smaller gauge wire(in this case .55mm)

As there is over 1000 turns to make,i decided to throw together a quick motor driven winder--first pic.
It has a motor at one end,and a bearing head at the other,which allows the core wire to rotate with the motor.

Last pic shows the winding in progress--it worked better than i had hoped  O0


Second pic-I then took this wrapped combination,and wrapped it around a toroid core.
The core is one i made myself using DEVCON liquid metal.

The .55mm wire(the wire wrapped around the 1mm core wire)has a 1 ohm CSR on the ground side(ch2 blue chanel). CH1 is across the CSR and .55mm coil.
The inner core wire has a 1 ohm CSR across it,and CH3 is showing the signal across the core winding.

I was not expecting anything to happen,but was surprised at the results.

1st scope shot shows all 3 traces,where the(what we will call)secondary (CH3) shows the RMS value across the 1 ohm load resistor,and the calculated P/in. The P/in value is on the high side,as the voltage trace (CH1) also includes the voltage across the 1 ohm CSR.

The second scope shot shows P/in when the 1 ohm load resistor is removed from the core winding.
Oddly enough,the P/in go's down very little when the load is removed.

Best results are had around 532KHz,which is what the scope shot tests are run at. But the effect starts as low as 50KHz.

Perhaps the poynting vector field plays a part in this?

This was just a quick throw together DUT.
As you can tell,the winding around the toroid is not very neat(it was getting close to 45*C in the work shop at the time),and the toroid core it self is of poor quality.
I also think a longer core wire with more turns of the smaller outer wire around it,and more turns of the combination wires around a good ferrite toroid would result in a far greater efficiency.

I believe this system could produce much better results if more time was taken with it.

I was looking for a way to accelerate the electrons,and this idea just popped up.
Probably not doing as intended,but i am surprised at how efficient the transfer of electrical energy is from primary to secondary in this winding configuration.

It may be of some use,it may not,but this is what i got from the quick build and test.


If we look at the geometry,it is the same as the mechanical Archimed's screw,but solid state in design.

Rather than have it wound around a toroid core,maybe we wind it around a long rod magnet ?
When a current is sent through the outer winding's,the inner wire (core wire) would be shielded from the PMs field. When the current is cut to the outer windings,the PMs field would induce a current through the core wire,as that core wire now forms a coil around the length of the rod PM.

Then there is also the inductive kickback from the outer spiral winding ?
ATM,i have no idea if there even would be any IKB from that winding,but will find out soon enough.

I am a firm believer that the PM holds the key to endless amounts of energy,but the trick is--how to gather that energy ? Perhaps this mix will yield the results we want.

If you do not think this idea belongs here,then feel free to say so,and i will move it to another thread.


Brad


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at what frequencies would iron be better and what is the relationship between "coil" and "antenna"?

In the far field, the highest amplification vs copper was below 50khz.  In the near field, it was better at any frequency.

After testing MANY types of wire, I concluded that the difference was due to diamagnetic vs. ferromagnetic properties of the metal.
The ferromagnetic properties of iron/nickel causes the magnetic component of the wave to be sucked into the wire, whereas a diamagnetic wire simply repels it.

The guru's here taught me the simplest experiments can often be the most mind-blowing ;)
   
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I have been doing tests similar to Brad's with windings on top of copper or iron wire, but have not yet threaded it through a core, just using a magnetic probe. I believe partzman has already done a similar experiment with a core.

My intention is to see if it is possible to fold the normal "B" field that surrounds the wire back into the wire with the overwinding, by carefully apportioning the current through each such that a null on the outside of the wire can occur.

Problem is the overwinding also acts as a  turn when threaded through the core, so that alone should cause some  cancellation or addition around the host wire, depending on the phasing. These factors need to be carefully separated out.

My intent to cancel flux was based on SM's teaching.

Originally I was researching magnetostriction effects in iron wire using the attached diagram, which are quite pronounced at several frequencies. Further research in magnetostriction will be to drive the loop with two slightly different frequencies to see if the lower harmonic produces a low frequency vibration (as reported in the TPU) and other effects.
« Last Edit: 2019-01-28, 17:35:46 by ion »


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I have been doing tests similar to Brad's with windings on top of copper or iron wire, but have not yet threaded it through a core, just using a magnetic probe. I believe partzman has already done a similar experiment with a core.

My intention is to see if it is possible to fold the normal "B" field that surrounds the wire back into the wire with the overwinding, by carefully apportioning the current through each such that a null on the outside of the wire can occur.

Problem is the overwinding also acts as a  turn when threaded through the core, so that alone should cause some  cancellation or addition around the host wire, depending on the phasing. These factors need to be carefully separated out.

My intent to cancel flux was based on SM's teaching.

Originally I was researching magnetostriction effects in iron wire using the attached diagram, which are quite pronounced at several frequencies. Further research in magnetostriction will be to drive the loop with two slightly different frequencies to see if the lower harmonic produces a low frequency vibration (as reported in the TPU) and other effects.

If i send a current through the core wire,i also can produce a voltage across the wrapped wire.

If the magnetic field produced by the current flowing through the core wire forms a directional spiral loop,then is it possible that that magnetic field could be draging the electrons through the outer wound wire,much like rotating the center shaft of the Achameds screw pump can create a flow of water through the outer spiral pipe ?.


Brad


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 @TinMan

The magnetic field is concentric with the central wire, the field lines are in circles around, not spiraling, it cannot induce current in the outer wound wire except if we consider the central wire as a large loop circuit and the outer wound wire as a single large loop like the first one, magnetically coupled to the other, which is a conventional effect with a transformer ratio = 1 (provided there is no resonance).
It is also to be noticed that the central wire is capacitively coupled to the other. Since there is a potential difference between each end of the central wire, it is not surprising to also find a voltage across the outer wound wire.
I don't see possibilities for exotic effects from this two common effects.


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In the far field, the highest amplification vs copper was below 50khz.  In the near field, it was better at any frequency.
...

Sorry I still don't understand: amplification of what? Amplification means "something out"/"something in" = G > 1.
Then the "far field" is a well-defined concept, not a subjective one. It does not form at less than one wavelength.  At 50 KHz, this means that you have measured it at a distance of 6 Km. I admit I have doubts, so I don't really know what you're talking about.


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...
Problem is the overwinding also acts as a  turn when threaded through the core, so that alone should cause some  cancellation or addition around the host wire, depending on the phasing. These factors need to be carefully separated out.
...

This is a subtile problem that is rarely seen and goes far beyond your configuration. Even wound around a torus, there is still a simple loop creating a field perpendicular to the surface of the toroid, in addition to the field along the toroid. See here what I synthetized some years ago, related to the Telos experiment.

To remedy this, one of the connecting wires must return by the same path as the winding, see your modified diagram in the attached image.

This had well been seen in the paper at the IEEE that I mentioned yesterday elsewhere : "Vector Potential Coil and Transformer" (pdf). Here, the "return wire" for the overwinding is the central conductor.


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@TinMan

The magnetic field is concentric with the central wire, the field lines are in circles around, not spiraling, it cannot induce current in the outer wound wire except if we consider the central wire as a large loop circuit and the outer wound wire as a single large loop like the first one, magnetically coupled to the other, which is a conventional effect with a transformer ratio = 1 (provided there is no resonance).
It is also to be noticed that the central wire is capacitively coupled to the other. Since there is a potential difference between each end of the central wire, it is not surprising to also find a voltage across the outer wound wire.
I don't see possibilities for exotic effects from this two common effects.

Fair enough  O0
You would know a lot more about this stuff than me.
I was just thinking that if the electrons are moving through the wire,and they are what carries the current,then the field around the wire may form some sort of spiral due to the flowing electrons--much like the earth spirals along behind the sun as it travels around the elliptic plane of the solar system,and not orbit the sun as we are taught.

Brad


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I was just thinking that if the electrons are moving through the wire,and they are what carries the current,then the field around the wire may form some sort of spiral due to the flowing electrons--much like the earth spirals along behind the sun as it travels around the elliptic plane of the solar system,and not orbit the sun as we are taught.

Brad

This requires specifying the concept of field. For me, a field is only a set of scalar values defined in space (field amplitudes). It was Feynman's idea.
When we say that the field moves from A to B, we mean that the field decreases at point A and increases at point B. It is like a luminous point moving on a wall: nothing really moves along the wall, we only have light that fades out at some point and lights up at another nearby point, giving the illusion of movement.

In other words, a field is always static in space but dynamic in time, depending on the location in space.
That said, I agree that such a field, apparently moving because of its changing topology over time, can really move in space charges that are trapped. And the opposite effect is also true.

But this is not the case here if we remain in the approximation of the quasi-stationary states, meaning that the dimensions of the circuit are small in comparison with the shortest wavelength of the working signals.
The consequence is that at every instant of time, the current is the same everywhere in the wire, so that the field is the same everywhere in space. Its intensity varies only in time and in one block, everywhere at the same time in space. It cannot therefore create any apparent movement in space capable of really moving charges. Moreover, only an electric field can move charges when performing work. A magnetic field can only deflect moving charges.


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