Martin Fleischmann Memorial project -THOR reactor:LENR claimed

[Chet K]

Here a File shared by another open source associate regarding Neon appearing in the TGen
Snip from PDF

OPEN
Water can trigger nuclear reaction
to produce energy and isotope
gases
Bin‑Juine Huang
1,2,6*, Yu‑Hsiang Pan
2, Po‑Hsien Wu
2, Jong‑Fu Yeh
2, Ming‑Li Tso
2
,
Ying‑Hung Liu
2, Litu Wu
2, Ching‑Kang Huang
2, I‑Fee Chen
2, Che‑Hao Lin
2, T. R. Tseng
3
,
Fang‑Wei Kang
3, Tan‑Feng Tsai
3, Kuan‑Che Lan
4, Yi‑Tung Chen
5, Mou‑Yung Liao
2,6, Li Xu
6
,
Sih‑Li Chen
6
& Robert William Greenyer
7
This paper reports the discovery that water can trigger a peculiar nuclear reaction and produce
energy. Cavitation may induce unusual reactions through implosion of water vapor bubbles. Many
of this research has been published formally or informally. We have conducted experiments using
two reactor types made from multiple-pipe heat exchanger and found that the heat exchange
process of water produces peculiar excess heat and abnormally high pressure leading to rupture of
the reactor. Recently, we have tested another eight reactors. Interestingly, these reactors produce
non-condensable gas. We suspected that they include 22Ne and ­ CO2. We used a mass spectrometer
(MS) to analyze 14 gas samples collected from 8 reactors, including ten samples showing a coefficient
of performance ­ COPx
>
1.05 (with excess heat) and four having ­ COPx
<
1.05 (without excess heat).
Several methods were adopted to identify the gas content. For ­ CO2 identification, two methods are
employed. For 22Ne identification, three methods are employed. All the results confirm that isotope
22Ne and regular ­ CO2 really exist in the output gas from reactors determined to have excess heat. We
conjecture a possible mechanism to produce 22Ne and ­ CO2 and find out that 12C and isotope 17O are
the intermediate. They finally form isotope gases containing 17O, including ­ H2O-17 (heavy-oxygen
water), isotope ­ O2 (16O–17O), and isotope ­ CO2 (12C–16O–17O). In the excess heat producing reactors,
all these gasses were detected by MS in the absence of 20Ne and 21Ne. The observed isotope gases
produced from reactors having excess heat verifies that water can trigger a peculiar nuclear reaction
and produce energy.
Review of peculiar phenomena observed in heat exchange process of water
Possible energy production via water cavitation has been noted for a long time. It was occasionally reported
formally or informally that cavitation of water may induce some form of reaction by way of implosion of water
vapor bubbles which produces excess ­ energy1–10
.
We have conducted experiments using two reactors made from concentric multiple-pipe heat exchanger and
found that, when water is flowing through a tiny space and heated, it produces peculiar excess heat probably by
cavitation and dynamic implosion of ­ nanobubbles11. Water used in the experiments is the city water filtered by
reverse osmosis (RO) filter.
The first reactor (VCS)11 is a triple-pipe heat exchanger (THX) (about 30 meter long) using R22 vapor from
a freon compressor (3 kW input) as the heat source to heat the pressurized water (about 21 bar) flowing through
a tiny channel of THX, about 2 mm gap. The water flow can be controlled as a pulse flow, about 2 to 10 cycles
per minute, through a control valve. VCS was developed for 2 years with several ­ modifications11. The inlet water
temperature varied between 10 and 55 °C at average flowrate around 1.2 liter/min. The compressor outlet tem-
perature varied around 150–160 °C. Modification of VCS-1, VCS-2a, VCS-2b, VCS-2c, VCS-3 includes the change
1ChairIn
End snip

Respectfully submitted
Chet

[Centraflow]

Thanks for that Chet.

Reminds me of my centraflow heat exchange patent, 97% efficient, similar principle for transfering heat from hot water to cold water instantly.

[Allcanadian]

ChetK

Another researcher who also built the GEET strongly agrees with AllCanadian on it being a similar operating principle

Here GEETS creator Paul Pantone giving a Demonstration ..
making very similar comments to Malcolm Bendall.
honestly I remember the Demonstrations back then
And when I heard Transmutation it was a big turn off LENR

The GEET and copy cat THOR is very similar to the Schauberger/jay harman lily impeller imo.

In the pictures below we can clearly see jay harman didn't invent anything and his supposed lily impeller is a copy of Schaubergers vortex impeller. Don't get me wrong I think it's wonderful jay harman has replicated schaubergers work I just think credit should be given where credit is due. In fact, if we watch a few of harmans video's we find he is literally repeating all schaubergers theories verbatim but never mentions the real inventor, Viktor Schauberger, by name.

How could this be possible?
And now there seems investigations into those exact claims are going to be happening in many universities and research Facilities with the similar MO thunderstorm generator.
GEET is much easier to build from existing resources ( no special fabrication)

In fact, the copy cat phenomena happens all the time. I'm in a different situation than most and having a photographic memory I knew immediately THOR was clearly a copy of the GEET. The same layout, the same claims, the same language and the same theory.

So in the THOR setup the UV light is a red herring and does nothing. The same for the THOR spheres on the ends of the GEET plasma tube. These were only added to change the appearance and avoid patent conflicts imo. The only thing I find amazing is that very few if any have figured out how and why the plasma tube actually works yet. Analyzing Bendall's language he obviously doesn't know anything, imo. My guess is he threw in a bunch of spiritual/sacred geometry/ quantum mumbo jumbo to distract everyone and it seems to have worked. However if we break down the basic layout and theory... it's just a modified GEET.

In fact, the GEET patents are magnitudes more informative than anything Bendall has said to date, imo.

[Allcanadian]

We could also learn a thing or two not from what we see but what we don't.

For example, in the GEET and THOR both use a bubbler section with water and a plasma tube. On the GEET the UV light and spherical ends on the plasma tube are missing therefore we can assume they are not required. However the bubbler section and plasma tube remain therefore we can assume they play some role in the process. We can also see water or the properties inherent in water are used in a majority of these kinds of devices.

In fact, Viktor Schauberger also spoke at length about the properties of water to reform coal into a gas and scrubbing CO2 from air to produce hydrocarbon fuels similar to how a tree works.

We can then look at other systems and start comparing what is present and common to other devices and what is missing. This relates to first principals and removing what doesn't matter and concentrating on what does. As we keep reducing the number of components which do not matter we get closer and closer to the primary operating principal common to all these devices which is the answer were looking for.

[Chet K]

EDIT
I see I was posting at the same time as your above  post..

>:(AC
Quote
The only thing I find amazing is that very few if any have figured out how and why the plasma tube actually works yet.
End quote

Since we're actually gearing up to test a replication,
perhaps you could share your thoughts on how the plasma tube is actually causing transmutation... since we also have the ability or will have the ability to test this transmutation. (It's actually the purpose of getting involved (ultimately)).

Also
I think it would behoove us to build a GEET reactor ( me too)
And do a comparison ...even side-by-side would be amazing in real time
and then test the samples for transmutation. This would be amazing ...to clear Paul Pantone's name (at least as it applies to the claim.)
Thoughts ??
(how about that plasma? Can you share what it takes to "do what it do" ? ( how and why it works?


Respectfully
Chet K

[Verpies]

It is not a given that these GEET, THOR or Thunderstorm generators work on the same principle.

Their dismissal as simple hydrocarbon cracking devices is superficial considering this paper.

If in fact the exhaust gas contains significant amounts of Neon-22 then this should not be ignored.
Earth's atmosphere contains 1.68ppm of Neon-22 by volume and 1.17ppm by mass, so if one finds 0.1% of it in the exhaust gas then it is a big deal that cannot be explained simply by cracking.

Testing for its presence requires a gas chromatography machine.
If one is not available on-site near the engine/generator then a vacuumed gas sampling vial can be used to capture the exhaust gas and carry/mail it to the chromatography machine.

Glass gas sampling vial with a vacuum adapter.

[Allcanadian]

ChetK

Since we're actually gearing up to test a replication,
perhaps you could share your thoughts on how the plasma tube is actually causing transmutation... since we also have the ability or will have the ability to test this transmutation. (It's actually the purpose of getting involved (ultimately)).

I want to say more but have restrictions on what I can talk about personally and professionally. This is also advanced technology which is problematic with global implications.

However I could talk about an example of excess energy relating to transmutation. Consider Viktor Schaubergers power generation devices. We suck some water up a central pipe and it falls down spiral or twisted copper tubes. The water then sprays through nozzles like a turbine against an iron ring on the perimeter. The reaction force of the water leaving the nozzles spins the device supposedly generating an excess force which turns a generator.

Any Engineer or physicist would tell you this cannot be done because the energy to lift the water to the top is the same as the energy generated by the falling water minus losses. It cannot work because the mass-velocity of the rising water is equal to the mass-velocity of falling water minus losses. To simplify this notion even more it's no different than lifting a bucket of water then trying to do work as the bucket of water falls. These are the kinds of gross generalizations or lumped sum oversimplifications many often use.

However I want you to think about my next question for a moment before proceeding, what if the water falling through the spiral tubes got heavier?.

As in "Heavy Water" or 2H2O often used in nuclear reactors, can be produced through electrolysis and is 10% heavier than normal water. Now, if we wanted to use a gross generalization as many often do our falling bucket of water just got 10% heavier. Oh dear, now we have problems don't we?. More so if large unrestricted volumes of water moving at high velocity described by Viktor Schauberger were used. Here the first word which comes to mind is transmutation. Trans (across, beyond), Mutation (to change or alter). To change or alter the properties of something different to that of it's prior state.

I like these kinds of "thought experiments" because it tends to have a snowball effect on innovation. Learn one new thing and this leads to ten new concepts which then leads to 100 new things and so on.

Which also begs the question how many might has guessed heavy water and transmutation might be involved... the answer is basically zero.

[Chet K]

Here a "live" demonstration/comparison of thunderstorm generator and unmodified identical generator

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KTzDKpqU7-k

Just a note:
trying to arrange a similar side by side comparison of Paul Pantone's GEET
And hopefully testing similar claims of transmutation and plasma "events" in the GEET?

Plan on working on these tests in conjunction with principals of the original GEET system?
The GEETS simplicity of replication with readily available "over the counter" components being one big reason...
Respectfully
Chet K
PS
Thanks to Member Cloxxki for helping to arrange this GEET test !

[Chet K]

4: 55 minute mark in this video

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yel2uuHrtaQ

Asks if others have seen the video of the big genset running the thunderstorm gen system at a London landfill?

Apparently small "lightning flashes"from raindrops on generator during a rainstorm ( there's another video apparently?)
Implies it looks like cavitation ( photon release) flashes similar to pistol shrimp cavitation events in water ...
And some vortices after ...?
Respectfully submitted
Chet K
Ps
Above relatively short clip at 4:55 referencing "lightning or ?" Is reason I posted this..
Trying to get the video which he "George?" Referenced from Big thunderstorm genset at landfill in London ( running off of landfill gasses for cogen and reclamation

[Chet K]

Here a "walk around" of a replication

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=opDu8lt106w

[PhysicsProf]

Here a "walk around" of a replication

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=opDu8lt106w

Chet, I viewed all 3 of the videos you linked above - thanks for these!

One thing I'm surprised at is that none of these show measurements leading to an evaluation of Pout/Pin (COP).
That is not too difficult -- for example, one measures the output power for say 30 minutes compared to the amount of fuel used (and putting all into the same units of power or energy, e.g., Eout/Ein).

[Allcanadian]

PhysicsProf

One thing I'm surprised at is that none of these show measurements leading to an evaluation of Pout/Pin (COP).
That is not too difficult -- for example, one measures the output power for say 30 minutes compared to the amount of fuel used (and putting all into the same units of power or energy, e.g., Eout/Ein).

Indeed, that's the first thing I noticed.

I was thinking about this the other day. The first thing I would do is show the efficiency (Eout/Ein), inlet temperature vs exhaust temperature, inlet gasses (O2, CO2, CO) vs exhaust gasses.

It's also interesting to note the GEET claimed to raise efficiency and reduce emissions but the patent claim was as a fuel reformer. Most engines require a specific fuel where in my GEET setup it could atomize and combust literally any liquid organic material. For example, it could burn waste oil just as easily as gasoline or diesel fuel. This is where the GEET really shines imo.

[Allcanadian]

On the GEET and THOR O2 measurement, many people find the higher O2 baffling but it's actually very easy to understand.

In combustion equipment like a furnace or boiler we add enough air to the fuel so we get a clean burn. If the flame is sporadic and light blue too much air, a steady blue flame just right and orange or orange tips too much fuel. The air added beyond that needed for complete combustion is called "excess air".

As we can clearly see in the THOR setup were adding air from the bubbler after the carburetor. This is excess air beyond the standard fuel-air setting of the carburetor so in fact we should see a much higher O2 on the exhaust.

We could then ask why the leaner fuel air mixture (more excess air) isn't pre-detonating?. It's because the water vapor from the bubbler is cooling the fuel-air charge and moderating the cylinder temperature. Most people never see high O2 on the engine exhaust because the electronics won't allow it or they have never experimented on or understand lean burn engines like myself. So I found all the excitement about excess O2 in the exhaust kind of funny as I was doing this kind of stuff 40 years ago.

In other words, we moderate the combustion temperature with water vapor to prevent pre-detonation so we can run super lean with lots of excess air and/or O2. Nothing to it.

[Centraflow]

On the GEET and THOR O2 measurement, many people find the higher O2 baffling but it's actually very easy to understand.

In combustion equipment like a furnace or boiler we add enough air to the fuel so we get a clean burn. If the flame is sporadic and light blue too much air, a steady blue flame just right and orange or orange tips too much fuel. The air added beyond that needed for complete combustion is called "excess air".

As we can clearly see in the THOR setup were adding air from the bubbler after the carburetor. This is excess air beyond the standard fuel-air setting of the carburetor so in fact we should see a much higher O2 on the exhaust.

We could then ask why the leaner fuel air mixture (more excess air) isn't pre-detonating?. It's because the water vapor from the bubbler is cooling the fuel-air charge and moderating the cylinder temperature. Most people never see high O2 on the engine exhaust because the electronics won't allow it or they have never experimented on or understand lean burn engines like myself. So I found all the excitement about excess O2 in the exhaust kind of funny as I was doing this kind of stuff 40 years ago.

In other words, we moderate the combustion temperature with water vapor to prevent pre-detonation so we can run super lean with lots of excess air and/or O2. Nothing to it.

You have explained that very well and is "in my opinion" exactly what is happening.

The little "thunder storms" is the same that happens with ANY heat and humidity enclosed in an area. This also happens at the NASA assembly plant in Florida, special climatic conditions.

[Chet K]

Many thanks for comments !

Here an earlier vid where the big ( Thor modified) generator in London is being discussed
And George Lush (high end metal treatment company) who made the 24" sphere within a sphere ( 24 outside 18 inches inside)
Addendum:above spheres were mild steel not stainless steel as "production " Thor units being sold now through various countries and vendors..

He Talks about a few things which shocked him ..about 2-3 minutes in
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Icew8R-VWSY

Honestly I'm still trying to grasp the difference between the GEET and Thunderstorm ...
Seems super heating water and pulling a vacuum are shared attributes

This magnetic anomaly seems shared
The "ION" charge (UV lightbulb) in TS ?
However the GEET seems to have difficulty getting the oxygen level to where THOR seems to flourish or
Easily replicated ...

* add
The Thor genset in London was the one where Mr.Lush referenced a plasma ( "pistol shrimp ") event in a rainstorm
With a video of raindrops striking the Thor unit and implosions and explosions and light flashes with vortices ...
At 4:55 mark he mentioned in this vid ( post #58 above

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yel2uuHrtaQ

Still haven't found that above mentioned video...
EDIT
However
Here from Martin Fleischmann memorial project
Images of "coherent Matter traveling waves" outside
And " re entering " spheres during operation..

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B7qZl9Dhp1g

[Chet K]

Here something perhaps a bit off topic for typical contributions ( in this thread )
However...
Bob Greenyer's ( and many others ) recent "Cosmic Summit" meeting.

Here:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OkCDDbaWLXM

Respectfully submitted
Chet K

[Chet K]

Test Data on 8kw diesel retrofit of THOR reactor ( gen had 2kw load during test)
Data at 8 minutes

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qgbX89gO59s
Respectfully submitted
Chet K

[Grumage]

I was musing about the demonstration. Obviously not having a scientific background some of the terminology sounded a bit  hocusy-pocusy to me. It made me wonder if the plain admission of steam ( at normal atmospheric pressure ) into the inlet manifold could have the same effect on emissions? Sadly I don't have a Diesel generator here to play with.

Regards Graham.

[Chet K]

I was musing about the demonstration. Obviously not having a scientific background some of the terminology sounded a bit  hocusy-pocusy to me. It made me wonder if the plain admission of steam ( at normal atmospheric pressure ) into the inlet manifold could have the same effect on emissions? Sadly I don't have a Diesel generator here to play with.

Regards Graham.

Definitely a good thing to check 👍
Hopefully an inexpensive exhaust analyzer can be sourced ( I believe they are coming way down in price.

[Allcanadian]

Test Data on 8kw diesel retrofit of THOR reactor ( gen had 2kw load during test)
Data at 8 minutes

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qgbX89gO59s
Respectfully submitted
Chet K

From what I can see the results look pretty normal. Excess O2 produces less CO, CO2, HC and moderating the combustion temperature with water vapor reduces the NOx. I was playing around with this  stuff 40 years ago and from what I can see these are basically textbook results. However what we do not see is the efficiency of the system.

The efficiency is a problem because the water absorbs 2257 kj/kg of energy when it flashes into steam which travels right out the exhaust pipe unless recaptured. This is why the GEET sent part of the exhaust back to the bubbler to condense the steam and recapture some of the lost energy. So reducing emissions like the THOR is super easy just add more air and water however also increasing the efficiency like the GEET is a completely different beast.

It's not rocket science and in a normal engine 60 to 70% of the energy is completely wasted as heat out the exhaust pipe. This heat energy must be transformed and sent back to the engine or used in an external system like heating hot water or your house.

[Chet K]

Here member Cloxxki sent information on a recent Bob Greenyer interview
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8dfpmz73--Q

Respectfully submitted
Chet K

[Chet K]

Malcolm Bendall and a teaser on the plasmoid tech!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gSHOwZNhe94

[Allcanadian]

Malcolm Bendall and a teaser on the plasmoid tech!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gSHOwZNhe94

The first problem I see is that they were trying to compare an engine which was at operating temperature running at constant RPM to a different cold start engine. A fair comparison would use two identical engines with the same load at operating temperature.

In fact, most vehicles do not need a catalytic converter or other emissions systems when up to temperature at normal RPM. The catalytic converter just catches un-burned fuel on cold starts then burns off the hydrocarbons into CO2 once up to temperature. It's the un-burned fuel as CO, methane and particulate matter on cold start were trying to avoid. The CO and methane are much worse green house gasses than CO2.

This is where the GEET really shined because most of the exhaust was routed through the water bubbler on start up which acted like a water scrubber absorbing the cold start hydrocarbons. Later once the engine was up to temperature these unburned hydrocarbons were sent to the intake and combusted. So a $5000 catalytic converter was replaced by a simple water bubbler, genius.

[Verpies]

What about the Neon enrichment of the exhaust gasses ?

[Allcanadian]

What about the Neon enrichment of the exhaust gasses ?

I find your response a little strange. Of all the technical aspects we could talk about to move the conversation forward you chose the one component which means little if nothing.

Many people seem to do this and I'm not sure why. I found sometimes what people don't say can give us more insight than what they do. In any case I have no interest in a neon bulb and the plasma reactions are where all the real action takes place.