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Author Topic: SEMP AI Smart Electromagnetic Generator (AISEG)  (Read 61084 times)

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That was simply the way my brain works in the magnetic domain...
That is what I thought.
I still remember the flux capacitor in the magnetic domain.
   

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410mT at 25C and 340mT at 100C.  Applied H = 1200A/m
So it should be possible to calculate the energy in tak22's core (TN36/23/15-3R1) represented by this remanent magnetization and the expected voltage amplitude that will be induced when this magnetization decays in e.g. 1ms.
   
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@Smudge

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"Unlike a normal transformer where the secondary power is determined by electrical input to the primary, here we have thermally driven secondary power. The electrical power output from the secondary can exceed the electrical power input to the primary."

This implies that there is a significant temperature variation at the pulse repetition rate.
Do we agree on this point?



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What I am about to say could be important in the search for OU.  I have long held the view that electron atomic orbits and electron spin could be viewed as a source of energy in the same way that current in a coil is.  MPI used the term "quantum dynamo" to express this.    Various organisations have claimed to extract energy from electron spin, but AFAIK no one has put forward any math proof that their systems actually do this.  In my spreadsheet calculations showing excess energy from remanent magnetism self decay I have just now looked at magnetization M as a source energy in the same way that H comes from a current source applied to a coil.  When I look at this invisible source during the magnetization pulse where we supply current to do the magnetizing there is a large (because M>>H) invisible flow of energy from M.  During the self demagnetization where we extract energy from induced voltage there is an invisible flow of energy into M.  The two back and forth invisible flows are not equal.  And guess what?  The net invisible energy from the quantum domain accounts for the excess energy we get.

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@Smudge

This implies that there is a significant temperature variation at the pulse repetition rate.
Do we agree on this point?
I would say a significant heat flow variation at the pulse rate.  Temperature variation will depend on other features that will smooth those variations.  But may be there is a more fundamental energy source that throws thermodynamic considerations to the wind as I have just posted.
   

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So it should be possible to calculate the energy in tak22's core (TN36/23/15-3R1) represented by this remanent magnetization and the expected voltage amplitude that will be induced when this magnetization decays in e.g. 1ms.
Yes, I can put the known features of those cores into my spreadsheet.  I will have to make a stab at the likely number of turns.
   
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Thanks to Smudge and verpies for moving this in the direction of a starting build spec!

I've looked into where to get 240 degree magnet wire in small quantities and so far Remington is the most likely.

https://www.remingtonindustries.com/magnet-wire/magnet-wire-240-c-22-awg-polyimide-6-spool-sizes-available/

tak
« Last Edit: 2025-05-14, 03:18:56 by tak22 »
   

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Here is a quick note about the proposed experiments just to get things on the move.  More later.

Edit.  I just realized I wrote demagnifying when it should be demagnetizing.  It's an age thing!!
   

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Shouldn't the slow demagnetization occur after the falling edge of the pulse ?
   

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Shouldn't the slow demagnetization occur after the falling edge of the pulse ?
Yes, that comes next.  I put myself into the position of someone without the experience of a computer engineer using write and read pulses for magnetic memory, someone with access to an oscilloscope but not familiar with capturing single transients.  What do they look for as they increase the temperature?  I hope my simplistic waveforms tell them.

The next stage, showing the decaying voltage waveform, will open up a can of worms in respect of voltage polarity between rising and falling magnetization and that between input power and output power.  Because we are so familiar with our power sources being voltage where "off" is an open circuit, and we have difficulty dealing with current sources where "off" is a short circuit, I need to be careful in getting this next stage right and explaining why. 
   
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I don't understand the idea behind this and what would justify the experiment. The advantage of working close to the curie point is that we can think of new possible effects due to the variation in magnetisation.
Magnetisation is a collective effect that is influenced by temperature. But whether it's temperature or thermal energy, they are linked to the heat capacity of the magnetic material, and therefore to significant thermal inertia. Being close to the Curie point only means changing the magnetic characteristics of the material, such as the BH curve. The idea that the variation in heat exchange could be as fast as the variation in the signal, which is too fast in relation to the thermal inertia, has no justification, and invoking quantum effects is a deus ex machina since it has nothing to do with the initial idea linked to the Curie point.


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The idea that the variation in heat exchange could be as fast as the variation in the signal, which is too fast in relation to the thermal inertia,
I asked myself a similar question earlier. But the guru here answered that it is not so.
Heat flow does not have to change as quickly as electric current.
   

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The idea that the variation in heat exchange could be as fast as the variation in the signal, which is too fast in relation to the thermal inertia, has no justification
You have correctly used the term "inertia" here.  Looking at mass inertia you know that a sudden application of a force will result in the mass moving at a rate determined by the inertia.  I used the word "sudden" meaning a fast rise time of the force pulse.  The inertia is not slowing down the force pulse, it still has the same rise time.  A current pulse into a capacitor is similar.  In the SEMP system we have remanent magnetism decaying at a fast rate.  Something is driving that decay and we assume it is thermal.  Why do you tie this to thermal capacity when clearly it is not.  Thermal force is the driving force and that is not slowed down by thermal inertia.
   
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You have correctly used the term "inertia" here.  Looking at mass inertia you know that a sudden application of a force will result in the mass moving at a rate determined by the inertia.  I used the word "sudden" meaning a fast rise time of the force pulse.  The inertia is not slowing down the force pulse, it still has the same rise time.  A current pulse into a capacitor is similar.

"Thermal” is a statistical term, referring to the average agitation of particles, and therefore their kinetic energy. Contrary to what you say, thermal inertia obviously slows down the effects of forces, since electron collisions in the crystal lattice are what average particle agitation, degrading impulse energy by transforming it into thermal energy, which leads to the notion of temperature and determines Curie's point.
The example of the capacitor is incorrect: it's impossible to impose an impulse on a capacitor, we're always subject to the time constant t/RC, we can only charge it step by step, exponentially.

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In the SEMP system we have remanent magnetism decaying at a fast rate.  Something is driving that decay and we assume it is thermal.  Why do you tie this to thermal capacity when clearly it is not.  Thermal force is the driving force and that is not slowed down by thermal inertia.

This question here is related to Curie's point, otherwise the concept becomes banally irrelevant since magnetism can indeed vary rapidly. Without a logic linking this rapidity to magnetic parameters that depend on the Curie point and vary just as rapidly, I really don't see where the new idea lies.


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"Thermal” is a statistical term, referring to the average agitation of particles, and therefore their kinetic energy. Contrary to what you say, thermal inertia obviously slows down the effects of forces
That is not contrary to what I say, I said just that, it can slow down the effect but it doesnt change the force.
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, since electron collisions in the crystal lattice are what average particle agitation, degrading impulse energy by transforming it into thermal energy, which leads to the notion of temperature and determines Curie's point.
But we have remanant magnetism decaying with a relaxation time in milliseconds that is clearly not slowed down by thermal inertia.  We use that fast decay to deliver energy into a load.  Where does that energy come from?  The standard argument put forward by the non believers is it came from the energy we supplied in creating the remanent magnetism.  I don't follow that argument.  Can the statistical average agitation of particles be the source of that energy?  If so where does thermal inertia come into the equation?
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The example of the capacitor is incorrect: it's impossible to impose an impulse on a capacitor, we're always subject to the time constant t/RC, we can only charge it step by step, exponentially.
Your mind is fixated on the voltage, not the current.  We can impose a current impulse where the currect source has infinite internal resistance hence t/RC is zero.  There current is the source and voltage is the result.  In our system under consideration can't the statistical average agitation of particles be a source?  If those agitations can drive the demagnification surely they can also drive energy into our load?

Quote
This question here is related to Curie's point, otherwise the concept becomes banally irrelevant since magnetism can indeed vary rapidly. Without a logic linking this rapidity to magnetic parameters that depend on the Curie point and vary just as rapidly, I really don't see where the new idea lies.
I repeat, if those agitations can drive the demagnification surely they can also drive energy into our load?
   
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...But we have remanant magnetism decaying with a relaxation time in milliseconds that is clearly not slowed down by thermal inertia.  We use that fast decay to deliver energy into a load.  Where does that energy come from?
...

Fast decay is found everywhere in ferromagnetic materials. Whether or not there's a delay due to remanence makes no difference: the energy returned is the energy used for magnetization.


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Here is something for your consideration.  Enjoy!
   

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Here are the idealized waveforms for the MnZn ring core experiments.
   

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Fast decay is found everywhere in ferromagnetic materials. Whether or not there's a delay due to remanence makes no difference: the energy returned is the energy used for magnetization.
So where is the error in his math ?
   

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Here is a chat about BH loops to show that they can be system plots and not material plots.  Then plots of B v. M.   
   

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I have corrected and amended the document I posted so here is the new version (same file name).  Enjoy!
   

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To understand what really happens inside PM material where the magnetism self-decays at high temperatures I have used a spreadsheet to set up a quantity of magnetic dipoles.  I have set them with their axes at 5-degree intervals from 5 to 85 degrees with respect to the axis of interest (17 dipoles).   At each point there are two dipoles set 180 degrees apart (so now 34 dipoles).  Thus, for the starting point all the fields cancel out, their sum is zero.  Next, I apply some forcing function that I call H to the whole set that will cause dipoles to flip.  H lies along the axis of interest.  The value of H needed to flip a dipole depends on its angle, so I start with a simple sine function.  Just using the sine function would result in modelling isotropic material, so I also include a gaussian function that favours the smaller angles to model anisotropic material.  Below is the result showing B v. H and M v. H.  This overly simple model has succeeded in modelling the initial rise from zero and the full hysteresis loop.  I think that is a good first step.
I intend to develop this into a much larger array of dipoles at smaller angular increments but before doing so it strikes me that surely this has been done before by other people.  If anyone can point me in the direction of this type of simulation for ferromagnets I would be grateful.
   

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So what would happen at the limit case if the coil was ideal and the load resistor was 0Ω ?

Obviously such coil would maintain the remanent flux through it even if the remanent magnetization decayed to zero.  ...would we be left with randomized atomic dipoles and current circulating in the coil ?   ...if "yes", how could the dipoles randomize if the coil is keeping the magnetic flux constant ?
   

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So what would happen at the limit case if the coil was ideal and the load resistor was 0Ω ?

Obviously such coil would maintain the remanent flux through it even if the remanent magnetization decayed to zero.  ...would we be left with randomized atomic dipoles and current circulating in the coil ?   ...if "yes", how could the dipoles randomize if the coil is keeping the magnetic flux constant ?
IMO we would not be left with randomised dipoles, a few of them will flip to drive current to hold the magnetization at a constant level, the thermal agitation that is trying to flip dipoles to produce demagnification is countered by the presence of that current.  I don't know what that level would be and I am hoping this spreadsheet I am working on will help solve that riddle.  With the relative permeability close to unity it requres high current to hold back a small flux change.  What I have learned so far is perhaps quite obvious, the dipoles that requre the least energy (small flux) to flip do so at the start of the initial magnetization build up, and those that require the most energy (high value flux) to flip are at the tail end of the build up because that flux is almost there.

If we demagnify by applying current we have to supply energy to take H negative to the -Hc value and the dipole flipping sets up the chain reaction that quickly takes the system to -Brem just beyond -Hc.  What would happen if we had another coil connected to a load while we drive that negative H current in an attempt to demagnify?  Well it is just a transformer, as we draw more energy into the load resistor so we have to supply more energy into the drive coil.  The energy out is not then tied to the magnetization energy, it can far exceed it.  But it is not OU because we supplied that input.  If Nature supplies the drive input doesn't the same thing apply?  Without knowing exactly how the self-demagnetizing takes place we are at a loss to predict what happens.
   

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I have parsed the MR1 ferroxcube material data onto a spreadsheet to find its incremental relative permeability at remanence.  I have taken the 100C hot case to find uR there to be about 2300, so it is not very square loop (a perfect square loop material would have uR=1 at remanence).  When I plug this into my spreadsheet that deduces output energy it looses the ability to offer the huge COP's of perfect square loop material, but still offers COP>1.

For those who are sceptical about this route to OU I offer the following thoughts.  One of the fundamental formula of EM is B=u0uR(H+M).  For perfect square loop material at the remanent point where H=0 and uR=1 we have B=u0M.  This says we have a volume of space containing a number of magnetic dipoles.  We know those dipoles are tiny particles within inter-atomic space so the space volume under consideration is that free-space volume known to magnetic engineers as "the air-space occupied by the core".  The magnetic energy density is u0M2/2 Joules/m3.  That is a large amount of energy far in excess of that supplied to get to the remanent point.  Is it real and if so where has that energy come from?  If you were small enough to climb inside the material into that inter-atomic space and explore all that space you would find that energy to be real.  And it comes from the atomic dipoles responsible for M.  Those dipoles don't disappear when M=0, they are still there but their combined effect yields that zero.  It is their individual alignments that change, they flip or rotate suring the build up from M=0.  That huge internal energy change taking place during the build up comes from the dipoles, they are truly "quantum dynamos".  Is any of that quantum energy avaiable to us during the self-demagnetization we are considering.  If you argue that the manner in which the dipoles flip and rotate during the M build-up driven by our supplied H is identical to the manner in which they deflip and derotate driven by thermal agitation while delivering our output H then the answer is no, we would get out what we put in.  But but thermal agitation combined with our output H that is opposing the drop in M is not the same as the input conditions, so it could lead to OU where the excess energy comes from the quantum domain, not from the thermal domain.  "Quantum dynamos" could become the new buzz word.
   
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