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Author Topic: The Death of the Lenz Law  (Read 151691 times)

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tExB=qr
I will not tone down my rhetoric.  The open-sourcing of free energy is perhaps the highest task to which man can now aspire.   I have no tolerance for lies , nor attempts at suppression of free and open discourse via psychological tactics.

If both you , 'MileHigh' , and 'Farrah Day' are not on the three-letter Psyops payroll, as you so innocently claim (which I certainly do not believe)  , you two are quite lucky to spend ALL your free time repeating educational brainwashing back to us , like the insistent bleat of a couple of dull sheep.

Thus,

1) I will no longer respond to any of the negative , time-wasting drivel that you 'MileHigh' , or 'Farrah Day' , post.
2) I will encourage anyone else involved in energy research -- including my friends -- to quit responding to both of you , as you both are a complete waste of time.

Whether myself (or anyone else involved in this research) is 'correct' or 'incorrect' , what does it matter to you?  

You can spare yourself answering this rhetorical question because you will get no response.


Hmm...

Feynman = Quarktoo = Steven D. Mark, incognito ... busted!
   
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Fellahs [and one girl][opps maybe two]
Can we just proceed on merit?
The whose who stuff gets us nowhere..............................

Chet
PS
Teslaalset
I posted that lnk in this thread a page or two back,
MarkSnoswell made a relavant comment !,Is it a valid one?
PPS
Feynman
A cyclone went thru OU.Com last month,all kinds of user name abuse crap went on.
This is the fallout now............
And you showed up shortly after![unfortunate coincidance]
Please be patient, Nerves are still  on edge!
« Last Edit: 2011-03-08, 15:28:02 by ramset »
   

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tExB=qr
Come on Chet!

We are in the presence of greatness!
   
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Grumpy,
Feynman "Gots Skills"!

Have you ever seen a guy this Good at covering a topic with pics ,Graphs,explanations,etc.?
This dedicated?
Go back to OU archives............,He's a freakin OU Open source Monster!
Saint Buzz[The]
NEVER EVER posted like this,{Al;most every post}
Did SM??[for get I said that]
Grumpy I trust this Guy completely !!!!!!!!!!
He's just very excited [I know how he feels].
He can smell it too............[and it ain't BS]

Chet
« Last Edit: 2011-03-08, 18:31:43 by ramset »
   
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On the Death of Lenz topic,
Some one new that agrees with bolt,and shares some cool observations!
popolibero
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Quote
I've been going through the posts on this thread and would like to give my two cents on a few things I've noticed. Someone wrote you need N-S arrangement magnets to get a sine wave, well clearly he's never put a scope on a coil pulsed by an all N rotor  .

A few people seem to confuse the flyback kick when a charged coil is let loose with what is being discussed here.

Romerouk, you said that you get acceleration when you short the coil through most of the cycle, I get the same when I do that. This is "normal" with an open coil core, This is actually what the Kromrey generator principle is based on. You wouldn't get this result with a core closed on itself like all traditional transformer cores... I don't know if this is what we want in this application though, as Bolt pointed out.

Anyway, keep up the good work!

regards,
Mario


   
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I watched the Ishmael Aviso videos last evening, including the DOE test, and here's some comments.

1)  First I want to say that Ismael is NOT a con-artist or anything of that sort, and he lives in quite poor conditions over there in the Philippines.

2)  One of the DOE guys that comments in the video made me realize that this sytem is just like I've been saying before, a very efficient system that extracts the energy from the battery efficiently and not loading it down directly with high amps.

3)  Aviso himself says that he uses a PWM  system, which is what is done in motor control, so this is nothing new.  PWM DC motor control has been around for decades.

4)  On a level surface,  moving from point A to point B requires very little energy dissipation or loss, mainly because of friction, but if this is reduced, one can travel around the globe a few times ON ONE 12 V BATTERY.    The problem we have in this country is that we want to move FAST, and air friction playes a big role in draining our batteries, but if we went slow, like he does in the streets of Manila, or where ever he is at,  he can do pretty well.    

5)  Energy is needed to accelerate, and then needs to be recovered when braking, so that the only net loss of energy is from friction and other inefficiencies like those of the converter.   To accelerate at a decent velocity, you need lots of power, and obviously one 12 V battery will not provide that,  so in the video we see he has a super capacitor.  That's what it's for, to provide that burst of energy needed for decent acceleration and then perhaps to take in the flyback on breaking.

6)  In the video he has a bank of blue capacitors that he keeps discharging,  these are charged with the kickback from the coils each time a pulse disconnects.   This is one way to deal with kickback, but another practical way is to place a free wheeling diode on the coil, which is what most motor applications do, from what I've seen.   But it sure is more impressive to show how much voltage builds up, not that he's doing it for the show, don't get me wrong.

7)  In the DOD video the system is different than in the first videos, and we don't see that "antenna" he has on top, and there is no mention of it either.  I think he realized that he is not actually pulling energy from the cell towers, since by just looking at the antenna I can tell it's not a 1 GHz antenna, but more like a 1 MHz resonant coil,  if that all it was.   But I am intrigued by the concept of using the kickback to couple with some external signal,  hopefully IN-PHASE, so that more energy can be received.   I think that concept has meritt, but most likely he is just recycling the energy comming back from his motor, that's all.   That's why he redesigned the system and eliminated the "antenna".


I have to say I'm thinking to develop an electric car system because gas prices are only going to get worse with time.   Putting around town is perfect for an electric vehicle that recycles the charge very efficiently.   I can drive around for months on flat level roads on one battery charge, if I use super capacitors to give me good acceleration and efficient breaking.

EM

P.S.   Here's a basic schematic for his system from what I saw in the video.  Nothing special besides the use of a super capacitor to provide for decent acceleration when needed.
« Last Edit: 2011-03-08, 19:40:14 by EMdevices »
   
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Here's an Electric Vehicle (EV) schematic that I would use.  It's just for acceleration not energy recover when breaking.  I'll think about that later.

Notice we decided to use the kickback energy to produce an extra motor force by using the free wheeling diode.  This is what's done in most motor control applications, as the objective is to produce motor force and not use the motor as an inductor to step the voltage up in a boost configuration, but certainly can be done as Aviso obviously does in the DOE verification video.

The important concept here is the super capacitor, and our 12 V battery keeps it charged up.  This is what Ismael Aviso is doing undoubtedly, and what makes for a practical electric vehicle with only one 12 V Battery.

EM

P.S.   You know, A123 has some pretty good batteries with low internal resistance, so they qualify as super capacitors.  I think I'll order a bank of these and convert my Corolla into an electric vehicle, and then I'll add a solar panel to charge up when I'm at work.   http://www.a123systems.com/
« Last Edit: 2011-03-08, 19:52:33 by EMdevices »
   

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...
Notice we decided to use the kickback energy to produce an extra motor force by using the free wheeling diode.  This is what's done in most motor control applications, as the objective is to produce motor force and not use the motor as an inductor to step the voltage up in a boost configuration...
EM

P.S.   You know, A123 has some pretty good batteries with low internal resistance, so they qualify as super capacitors.  I think I'll order a bank of these and convert my Corolla into an electric vehicle, and then I'll add a solar panel to charge up when I'm at work.   http://www.a123systems.com/


There will be some losses in the "free wheeling diode"
but those may be largely eliminated by using a MOSFET
properly oriented to function as a "synchronous rectifier."

On kickback the Body Diode will begin to conduct then
when the MOSFET is fully turned on it will carry the current
with little loss for the duration.  Then the MOSFET will be
switched "off" until after the next motor power pulse.

I like your plan for the electric conversion.  Very well thought out.


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
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Teslaalset
I posted that lnk in this thread a page or two back,
MarkSnoswell made a relavant comment !,Is it a valid one?


Well I played around with the sample size and I am not convinced the theory of Turtur can be wiped from the table just like that.
I've contacted Haithar to see whether he is willing to increase the max nr. samples allowed in his software.
I'll get back as soon as I've done sufficient simulations with more accurate sample intervals.
   
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we need to hunt down all the losses and reduce them,  absolutely.


I was looking at the Maxwell super capacitors  (3000 F)   and I'm impressed, but the price is not worth it.  (about $100 for one 2.7 V cell)   I would much rather go and get the heavier Optima batteries which also have very low internal impedance.   If I spend $2000 I can probably get 10  deep cycle batteries  connected in series for 120 V and they will support a peak 1000 Amps  (CCA)  which means a maximum of around 150 HP available for acceleration,  which would be pretty decent for my already gutless vehicle.   The problem with the lead batteries is that they are heavy, and the car will obviously accelerate slower under the added mass,  but hey $$$ doesn't grow on trees and I don't need to dart like rabbit.  I just want efficiency and low cost.

EM

P.S.   I did some calculations.   If I crank at 1000A,  the loss in the battery is  I^2 R = 3000 watts   given an internal resistance of 0.003 ohms.     wow !!   that is wastefull,  I definitely need a super capacitor or something to buffer that power burst with minimum losses.   I think I'll design a magnetic flywheel and put it in vacum to minimize losses.  An I'll cut back on the number of batteries I purchase, maybe I'll just get two batteries instead, and when I turn "ON" the car what I'll be doing is just reving up the flywheel to have available power for acceleration.  I'll design it so it can handle 150 kwatts of power transfer with at least 95 % efficiency at maximum.   that should be a good spec I guess.    just thinking out loud here.
« Last Edit: 2011-03-09, 00:58:34 by EMdevices »
   
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I guess that you are not comfortable in expressing the fact that the batteries in Rick Friedrick's lawnmower will run down.  So his act of driving into the conference hall in the hotel was nothing more than a stunt.  The fact that some of the energy from the main battery bank could be transferred into the charging battery bank is old hat, a glorified Bedini motor on wheels.

And that's the real point:  Rick driving his electric jumbo Bedini motor at the November Renaissance conference was a meaningless stunt that still managed to impress a lot of the attendees.

Really MileHigh? Is that a proven "fact" that the batteries will run down? Where did you get this "fact"? You must have a presonal hotline to Rick and he told you that.

Quote
If I was there I would have been groaning and squirming when I saw that.  I would have walked up to Rick and asked him if he had any specifications for the lawnmower.  In fact he didn't because the whole thing was put together at the last minute.  You can expect that he will never do any serious measurements on the lawnmower, it's nothing more than a prop.  So what gives Rick the right to call that a "free energy" device?  The answer is nothing gives him the right to do that but he does because that's good for business.  There are your psyops in action.

You weren't there, so that is purely hypothetical. What gives YOU the right to say that it is not a "free energy" device? I see it as a practical application of an already proven technology. At least Rick actually built something!

Quote
The fact that one battery bank charges another battery bank does not make it a free energy device.  The truth is that if you selected the right motor that was a good match for the application then that motor would be more efficient than the glorified Bedini/Window motor that Rick built for the show.  The cult of recycling the back spike has it's limits and it does not automatically mean a Bedini-style motor is better for the application.

What? Like a gasoline motor? So the "fact" that one battery bank is recovering almost 100% of the energy used to drive the motor PLUS move a 200+lb load around doesn't count? BTW, it's called a Bedini/Cole Window motor.
n
Quote
The whole point is to get at the truth about Rick's electric lawnmower.  Was it a miraculous demonstration of free energy technologies in action or was it just a funky under unity prop used to wow people at the conference but was otherwise useless?

The people following the thread can decide for themselves.

Yes, they can decide for themselves by actually BUILDING one and seeing it with theiir own eyes. Not hard to do, the schematic has been on the Internet for years and the parts are readily availble. The only thing stopping them is the money and the will to find out the truth for themselves. I don't think anyone appreciates the constant bleating of the closed-minded skeptic to persuade their decision MileHigh.

Quote
Most of the above are derived from the Sun.  The Sun is not a free energy device.  It's operation is a manifestation of the conservation of energy too, it burns fuel.  And a heat pump is only a free energy device if you have myopia and don't want to look at the total thermal system, notwithstanding that it can be put to good use to heat and cool a home.  Do you say that the fridge in your kitchen is an free energy device too?

Crap! Since when did you have to PAY for energy from the sun? It's got nothing to do with the Conservation of Energy law. Any device that freely takes any form of energy from the active environment is a free energy device. The energy you got you didn't have to pay for is FREE for the taking (until the goverments think of a way to tax it, which they will). A common home heat pump easily exhibits a COP>1. And yes, my refrigerator has components in it that provide free energy. Even the magnets that are stuck to them are free energy devices!

Have you polished up your award lately?

DragonSlayer
   
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EM,

I don't know where you learned a freewheel diode has anything to do with providing more energy to a motor. A 'freewheel diode', 'snubber diode', 'catch diode' or 'flyback suppression diode' (all the same thing) is used to limit the reverse flyback pulse amplitude produced when you remove voltage to anything with inductive properties. This is done by connecting it across the terminals of the inductor polarized so it appears as a short circuit to that flyback pulse. The intrinsic diode in a FET performs the same function.

Without it, polarized capacitors, the opening switch feeding the inductor(solid state or otherwise) and any part of the circuit with lower capacity than that reverse pulse may become damaged.  It is also used in some SMPS's to pump more current to the load. The only other use I can think of is for changing the 'ON' time for an SCR circuit.

You can use diodes to make better use of the stored energy in an inductor but then they aren't called any of the above names.

Just a friendly FYI  :)
   
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So the "fact" that one battery bank is recovering almost 100% of the energy used to drive the motor PLUS move a 200+lb load around doesn't count?

Please excuse my butting in but ....

Where is the proof for that 'fact'? I would love to see it.
 
Since nothing provided to date amounts to proof of any Bedini claims, I won't hold my breath. I have built several of his devices just to see what all the hype was about. Fortunately, I knew how to measure power.

When I figured all the hype was about making money and more hype I stopped wasting my time.

   
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WW,

the freewheel diode not only suppreses the high voltage kickback voltage that forms upon interuption of the current, like you mentioned,  but it also adds that energy that would be wasted in an arc back to the motor.  

You see, the DC motor at a particular velocity has an EMF based on velocity,   so the kickback current flows back in this EMF delivering energy to the rotor, energy that would have been wasted.  I think I leared this years ago in school.   I can draw you a diagram if you would like, but just read up on motor models and you will see what I'm talking about.

EM  

P.S.  Check out this link to see a model:    http://www.ece.unh.edu/courses/ece618/pdf/dc_motor.pdf
   
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Quote
Since nothing provided to date amounts to proof of any Bedini claims, I won't hold my breath. I have built several of his devices just to see what all the hype was about. Fortunately, I knew how to measure power.

I've built them as well.  That's how I got started on OU research.  Bedini's circuits are interesting, and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I really wish he'd go beyond building 800 variations a same motor and battery setup, and instead start trying to expand into other areas.  

Assuming Bedini is tapping into the 'Dirac Sea' ,  you'd think in all these years he would have tried to get a Bedini motor to run without a battery -- using a capacitor/resistor or germanium semiconductor to convert the negative energy.   I'm not saying I've accomplished that (I don't want to play armchair physicist), and I know it's harder than it looks to make a self-runner without batteries.

Anyway , if I were starting this research again, I'd go directly into DC pulse resonance in toroids, researching inductor hysterisis , scalar wave transmission, running generators on HHO etc, like I'm doing these days, rather than build Bedini motors.   I don't think Bedini is a charlatan or anything , just overhyped.  

P.S.  The real 'coup de gras' will be the creation of a replicable open-source "self-runner" (system which self-powers, with no battery), which I believe will come within the next 12-18 months or so.
   

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Frequency equals matter...


Buy me a drink
I'd go directly into DC pulse resonance in toroids, researching inductor hysterisis , scalar wave transmission.

I think I'll steal this quote for myself. 8)



---------------------------
   
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Here's another PWM DC motor drive that's a bit unconventional, but works.


Advantages:
The voltage source no longer limits the velocity we can attain.   The motor EMF developed at a particular velocity can be higher then the supply voltage.

Disadvange:
Extra inductor is needed to create the voltage boost.  Also the diode that prevents motor breaking during the "on" phase disipates some of the power, so this design is better suited for high velocity rotor operation where the EMF developed is high compared with the voltage drop across the diode.   The motor can be geared down for higher torque like servos.  

An interesting phenomena in this circuit is the opposition of one inductor against another.   I've modeled this transition before and it's very interesting to think about.  

EM
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
EM,

I don't know where you learned a freewheel diode has anything to do with providing more energy to a motor. A 'freewheel diode', 'snubber diode', 'catch diode' or 'flyback suppression diode' (all the same thing) is used to limit the reverse flyback pulse amplitude produced when you remove voltage to anything with inductive properties. This is done by connecting it across the terminals of the inductor polarized so it appears as a short circuit to that flyback pulse. The intrinsic diode in a FET performs the same function.


There is an important difference to note however;

With respect to the Drain, a flyback diode clamps the positive excursion (which is the first) of inductive kickback, and removes some steam from the negative excursion (which follows). The MOSFET intrinsic diode, clamps the negative excursion(s) wrt the Drain.

.99
   
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DragonSlayer:

I am not sure if you really believe what you are saying with firm conviction or if you are just being argumentative for it's own sake because in many cases we are on opposite sides of the debate.  Nevertheless, here goes...

Quote
Really MileHigh? Is that a proven "fact" that the batteries will run down? Where did you get this "fact"? You must have a presonal hotline to Rick and he told you that.

Yes it is an absolute fact that the batteries will run down with metaphysical certitude.  This is reality.

Quote
You weren't there, so that is purely hypothetical. What gives YOU the right to say that it is not a "free energy" device? I see it as a practical application of an already proven technology. At least Rick actually built something!

This is the oldest debate in this realm.  I don't have to prove that something is not a free energy device.  The burden of proof rests on the other party to prove that their device is a free energy device.  Common sense has to prevail.  And there is nothing proven about this "technology" at all.  There is nothing unique about an inductor discharging its stored energy into a battery.

Quote
What? Like a gasoline motor? So the "fact" that one battery bank is recovering almost 100% of the energy used to drive the motor PLUS move a 200+lb load around doesn't count? BTW, it's called a Bedini/Cole Window motor.

Like WaveWatcher said, this is just hype.  The energy supplied to the motor gets split between driving the motor, and being discharged from the coil as a back-EMF spike of current that goes into the charging battery bank.  "Almost 100%" is incorrect, perhaps 20% of the energy in this case goes into the charging battery bank.  The main problem here is that I have never seen a Bedini experimenter measure the power going into the Bedini motor and also measuring the power going into the charging battery bank.  This fundamental measurement is never made which blows my mind.  It's highly unlikely in Rick's case that he would be able to make these measurements anyways.

Quote
I don't think anyone appreciates the constant bleating of the closed-minded skeptic to persuade their decision MileHigh.

It's not about being a "closed-minded skeptic" when it comes to Bedini motors.  I cut through the misinformation and hype and speak the truth.  My mind is actually far more open when it comes to "Bedini technology" than that of most Bedini experimenters.

Quote
Crap! Since when did you have to PAY for energy from the sun? It's got nothing to do with the Conservation of Energy law. Any device that freely takes any form of energy from the active environment is a free energy device. The energy you got you didn't have to pay for is FREE for the taking (until the goverments think of a way to tax it, which they will). A common home heat pump easily exhibits a COP>1. And yes, my refrigerator has components in it that provide free energy. Even the magnets that are stuck to them are free energy devices!

I draw a clear distinction between renewable energy and free energy.  "Free energy" is the energy that people speculate magically materializes out of nowhere or allegedly comes from the vacuum or the Dirac sea, etc.  That's "free energy" and that's what the debate is focused on.  Energy that doesn't have a monetary cost like sunlight is not of interest to me.  Mixing the concepts of "free energy" and renewable energy is better to be avoided because it just clouds the debate.

Magnets are not free energy devices!  That's the oldest old wives' tale of them all!  I am still curious about the "CD clarifier" and I asked you if you knew how audio CDs and DVDs worked.

MileHigh
   
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An interesting phenomena in this circuit is the opposition of one inductor against another.   I've modeled this transition before and it's very interesting to think about.  

Yes it is.  Perhaps some people would like to comment on what they think happens.  If you understand inductors you can do it as a thought experiment.  You can do it in the idealized case for example.

There is a big hint in the old cliche about an unstoppable force encountering an immovable object.

MileHigh
   
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@EMDevices

Why is the MOSFET gate unconnected in your schematic?  Forgive my ignorance but I understand microcontrollers much better than I do motors.
   
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Many times I have mentioned that inductors and springs are identical and that's why there is no such thing as getting energy from the vacuum when an inductor discharges.  So relating back to EMdevices comments, you can find the solution just as easily with mechanical springs.  I am sure some of you learned what an ideal mechanical spring was in high school physics class.  It's simply a spring that has no mass.

So the question is what does the simplified setup look like when you do it with springs?  We are assuming that the simplified electrical setup is two inductors in series, and at time t = 0, one inductor has current flowing through it and the other doesn't.  We want to know what happens when the clock starts ticking.

So let's convert that to a version done with ideal mechanical springs:

It's basically two springs connected in series, with immovable anchor points on each end.

Like this:  III\/\/\/\/*\/\/\/\/\/\/\/III

At t = 0 the left ideal spring is compressed and the right ideal spring is not compressed.  What happens when the clock starts ticking?

MileHigh
   
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Feynman, I have to assume people know how to drive a MOSFET, some day I'll post a complete schematic, but not when I'm brainstorming. If you need help with a particular design, by all means shoot me an email, or just check the net.
EM
   
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Well I played around with the sample size and I am not convinced the theory of Turtur can be wiped from the table just like that.
I've contacted Haithar to see whether he is willing to increase the max nr. samples allowed in his software.
I'll get back as soon as I've done sufficient simulations with more accurate sample intervals.

i've made a separate thread to discuss Turtur's simulations and theory of a Zero Point energy motor to avoid several different discussions in this thread:

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=759.msg11879;topicseen#msg11879
   
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Feynman, I have to assume people know how to drive a MOSFET, some day I'll post a complete schematic, but not when I'm brainstorming. If you need help with a particular design, by all means shoot me an email, or just check the net.
EM

I thought part of your idea was to leave the gate unconnected.  I did that once with some TTL NAND gates and got strange effects in a circuit -- like a theramin from a science fiction movie.

Check out this paper, maybe you'll find it useful in your motor research...

Hybrid MOSFET/driver for Ultra-fast Switching
http://www.slac.stanford.edu/cgi-wrap/getdoc/slac-pub-13410.pdf



   
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