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Author Topic: Controller No5 With Protection - Looking for Explosions  (Read 209877 times)

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Ok,  20Mhz  X-tals inserted, code changed, so running on 20Mhz now.

Again with 40V on the drains (via a 220 Ohm 25W resistor which still gets hot) no crackling noises heard, not even with the stack of 4 ceramic magnets at the coils.

Screenshot shows the drain to source signal of the both MOSFETs.

I will play with it some more tomorrow.


Itsu
   

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As a new coil i  used 6 of those RG316 inner isolated copper clad steel wires in parallel as the main loop (kind of litz wire)
Around it i wound about 250 turns each of the bifilar coil yielding an inductance of 11uH each.

I still need 220 Ohm in the MOSFETs supply line to keep the current to the MOSFETs at a 180mA rms at 41V.

No crackling sound noticed, with or without using 4 stacked ceramic magnets or 2 stacked rectangular neo's.

The 50 Ohm load resistor across the main loop shows random max. 5Vpp which equates to about 0.5W (P=U²/R)


Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LREIv7nx92o

Regards Itsu
   

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Peter's coil must by critical.

Before you accomplish the increase of your coil's inductance, you can get rid of that big resistor by high-pass filtering the outputs of your noise generators.  With only high frequencies getting through, even the reactance of your low-inductance coil will be enough to limit the average drain current.
« Last Edit: 2016-11-30, 23:29:44 by verpies »
   

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Interesting idea verpies to cut the lower frequencies, the other way maybe to feed a dual monostable with each whitenoise signal to limit the pulse width which would be adjustable using a pot, Itsu would need to build a little vero board with a retrigerable mono and the 2 pics on, that then plugs into the 2 8 pin sockets, a bit like i did with my use of the pcb in the other thread, this should do the job.

Why is Itsus signal slanted slightly at an angle? looks strange.
   

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Peter's coil must by critical.

Before you accomplish the increase of your coil's inductance, you can get rid of that big resistor by high-pass filtering the outputs of you noise generators.  With only high frequencies getting through, even the reactance of your low-inductance coil will be enough to limit the average drain current.


Ok, a high pass filter in the white noise generator output, that would be the both Pic's, and that would make the white noise pink, right?

Anyway, i followed an online high pass filter calculator and settled for a RC of 1.8K and 10uF, meaning a high pass cutoff of 8.8KHz.
I put it between the Pic's output and the dual MOSFET driver.

Indeed, now the big resistor can be removed and 41V put directly on the drains and whalla, crackling noise emitted from the coils.
I put 2 GDT (Gas Discharge tubes) of 230V across the drain/source of the MOSFETs, but they seem not to light up allthough i measure >400V peaks on the drains.

My bench PS seems to have difficulty supplying current quick enough as the current limiter (10A) even when set to max. kicks in frequently, also
om the 30V circuit supply part  :D

First screenshot shows the signal across 1 MOSFET drain/source, the second screenshot is from across the 50 Ohm resistor on the main loop.


Video where you can hear the crackling noise here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpO4JxQTtSg&feature=youtu.be     


Itsu
« Last Edit: 2016-11-30, 21:47:00 by Itsu »
   

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Thats great news Itsu.

A few things to try, use an electret microphone to listen to the crackling, its very interesting.

Connect both fet drains together and use these connected drains to drive a single coil, start at low voltage and be very slow to turn the voltage up.

The other thing worth trying is to wind a 100K resistor around the tip of a scope probe and connect the other end around the scope probe earth and place it as a sniffer next to the coil and look for positive pulses.
   

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Thanks Peter,

i will do these  further experiments tomorrow.
I will start by putting in >600V rated MOSFETs as these 200V IRFP260N's will not survive for long.

In the both drains connected scenario, you mean with "a single coil" one of the bifilar coils, right?.

By the way, these crackling pulses on the drains are very small, <100ns, see screenshot.


Regards Itsu



 
   

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Quote
In the both drains connected scenario, you mean with "a single coil" one of the bifilar coils, right?.
Thats right  O0

Quote
By the way, these crackling pulses on the drains are very small, <100ns, see screenshot.
This is probably because when the phase delay between the two fet signals is just right you hit on the sweet spot and the result is a large pulse, you have probably seen my phase delay experiments where 1 fet is delayed 0-255nS and swept in 1nS steps at a certain delay a large pulse appears.

I dont ever remember seeing such high voltages on my drians but that could have been the poor quality scope i had at the time and would certainly explain why my fets would blow.

I was using irf840 fets.
Some fets just dont work as they are too slow to turn on and off.
   

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Ok, a high pass filter in the white noise generator output, that would be the both Pic's, and that would make the white noise pink, right?
Violet

Indeed, now the big resistor can be removed and 41V put directly on the drains and whalla, crackling noise emitted from the coils.
Interesting.  I have to analyze whether the superposition of two noise waveforms can cause these amplitudes.  My intuition says "no" but I haven't factored in the reflections from the ends of your "bifilar transmision line" yet.

I put 2 GDT (Gas Discharge tubes) of 230V across the drain/source of the MOSFETs, but they seem not to light up allthough i measure >400V peaks on the drains.
Turn off all the lights including scopes, tape up all pilot lights and put some camera on long exposure.  I bet you will see these GDT light up.

My bench PS seems to have difficulty supplying current quick enough as the current limiter (10A) even when set to max. kicks in frequently, also
om the 30V circuit supply part  :D
We can't have that current limiter acting up like this.
Perhaps a large capacitor bank bypassing the output of the power supply will help.  If not, add a huge choke between the caps and the power supply.
What is the " 30V circuit supply part" ?  (I haven't been following closely).

First screenshot shows the signal across 1 MOSFET drain/source, the second screenshot is from across the 50 Ohm resistor on the main loop.
I saw them. Interesting.
What I am missing is the baseline at a different scale , i.e. V and I of normal noise pulses visible when the cracking is not occurring.
This is for comparison between the usual and unusual.

I won't repeat Peter's suggestions only add some more:
1) Null experiment: Does the crackling still happen wit a copper wire of the same diameter arranged on an identical coil former the same way?  AFAIK you are using iron wire now...
2) Is the crackling sensitive to the static magnetic field of the permanent magnets (orientation, distance, plurality, polarization) ?
3) Is the signal at MOSFET gate disturbed by anything more than the Miller's capacitance (CD-G) ?
4) Keep the scope probes away from the coil (only their tips should approach it).  That might not be possible to notice easily with the randomness of the phenomena.


I will start by putting in >600V rated MOSFETs as these 200V IRFP260N's will not survive for long.
Stronger MOSFETs and drivers are a good idea.  We do not want some avalanche D-S breakdown to be responsible for the crackling.
As usual, keep the Source-Gate loop area as small as possible.

By the way, these crackling pulses on the drains are very small, <100ns, see screenshot.
That's good!  Does the static magnetic field affect their width ?
The shear between two MOSFETs and the reflections from the ends of a transmission line (your coil) can interfere constructively or destructively....but that much!?
Do show a long flat line before the pulse.  It is significant.
   

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Poynt99 duplicated the pulse in SPICE.

   

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What pulse magnitude came out in his sim ?
   

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I changed the MOSFETs for IRFP460's which can handle 500V, the crackling sound seems to be the same.

Some quick answers:

Quote
We can't have that current limiter acting up like this.
Perhaps a large capacitor bank bypassing the output of the power supply will help.  If not, add a huge choke between the caps and the power supply.
What is the " 30V circuit supply part" ?  (I haven't been following closely).


I use my dual bench PS (2x 40V @ 10A) which has 2 separate parts, 1 supplying the 30V to the Pic's (5V) and dual MOSFET driver (15V), the other
part supplying the MOSFETs drain voltage (max. = 41.5V)
Returns are connected together.

I stiffened up the 41.5V volt part with 2x 910uF parallel / 350V caps, but the current limiter still kicks in (these caps stopped the separate 30V PS part
current limiter led from coming on  :D ).
When i add a huge choke (primary of a MOT @ 250mH), between PS and caps, then the PS voltage starts to rise when the crackling occurres up till 47V,
but still the current limiter kicks in, so i removed the choke.

Using my current probe shows that the drains current peaks, when crackling, goes of my scope scale @ 5A/Div., so must be more then 50A.
Guess the bench PS simply cannot deliver enough and rightfully activate the current limiter.

 
 
Quote
I saw them. Interesting.
What I am missing is the baseline at a different scale , i.e. V and I of normal noise pulses visible when the cracking is not occurring.
This is for comparison between the usual and unusual.


When no crackling sound, the drain voltage is the 41V (see screenshot), and no current flows, the MOSFET is not active.
Perhaps i have the high pass filter set too high.

The NEO's seems to have no real influence on the shape or length of the pulses, they wiggle in rhythm with the crackling when set at 4cm from the coil.


More testing / results lateron.


Itsu   


   

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Itsu
take some thin enamelled copper wire and wind an air bifilar, wire length is not important then drive that and see that your 50Amp pulse is still there maybe.
It should also still crackle, my yellow coil was only used to find the anomalous 80 Watt pulse, but even a length of wire can crackle with both fets connected together.

PS if you have a dual chan sig gen then you could take the pics out and drive each fet driver with each sig gen and set pulse width to 100nS and then vary the delay between the pulses, some where you will find the anomalous pulse if you can adjust in nS
   

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What pulse magnitude came out in his sim ?

You'd have to ask Poynt99.  I haven't been able to find the posts he made.
   

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The NEO's seems to have no real influence on the shape or length of the pulses, they wiggle in rhythm with the crackling when set at 4cm from the coil.

Itsu

Try putting a coil around a NEO, matching the magnetic orientation and observe on a scope.
   

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Thats great news Itsu.

A few things to try, use an electret microphone to listen to the crackling, its very interesting.

Connect both fet drains together and use these connected drains to drive a single coil, start at low voltage and be very slow to turn the voltage up.

The other thing worth trying is to wind a 100K resistor around the tip of a scope probe and connect the other end around the scope probe earth and place it as a sniffer next to the coil and look for positive pulses.

Peter,

i seem to have misplaced my electret microphone / amplifier, so this test has to wait, but should it not sound the same as the sound picked up by the video camera mic?

When connecting both drains together on a single coil, i do not see much difference with the MOSFETs connected to their own coils, see screenshot 1

When connecting a 120K resistor across my scope probe, a get the signals as can be seen in screenshot 2.
All positions around the coil seem to pick up a similar signal.

These signals are with 24V from a series set of battery instead of the 41V from the PS.   So we have no current limiting now and a 10A analog current meter on the batteries  sometimes goes all the way to 10A!

Itsu
   

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Try putting a coil around a NEO, matching the magnetic orientation and observe on a scope.

When putting a 4 Ohm speaker coil around 2 stacked rectangular neo's i get this signal from this speaker coil, see screenshot.


Itsu
   

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Look at those positive pulses in all your scope shots, i would be interested to see what verpies makes of those, especially the 120K terminated scope probe.
   

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Quote
I won't repeat Peter's suggestions only add some more:
1) Null experiment: Does the crackling still happen wit a copper wire of the same diameter arranged on an identical coil former the same way?  AFAIK you are using iron wire now...
2) Is the crackling sensitive to the static magnetic field of the permanent magnets (orientation, distance, plurality, polarization) ?
3) Is the signal at MOSFET gate disturbed by anything more than the Miller's capacitance (CD-G) ?
4) Keep the scope probes away from the coil (only their tips should approach it).  That might not be possible to notice easily with the randomness of the phenomena.


1) i used my earlier bifilar coil on the hose, but now without any center loop wire.
   Even with 24V from 2 series batteries instead of the 41V from the PS i see (not hear) some activity.
   Only when attaching stacked neo magnets to this bifilar air coil i can hear some crackling again, but coming from the magnets it seems.
   So the inner loop wire (copper or steel) is not needed to get the effect.

2) i can not detect any effect from the magnets on the crackling or shape of the pulses, but as the cracking is very random, its not easy to tell.

3) I can not see any abnormalities on the gate signal during the crackling, except these oscillations just before activating the MOSFET, see screenshot

4) i tried to keep the probes away from the coils as much as possible.


One thing i noticed is that the 2 series batteries seem to gain voltage from 24.8V when starting to 25.1V after some minutes of testing.


I will upload a video which shows some of the above tests lateron.


Itsu
« Last Edit: 2016-12-01, 22:01:58 by Itsu »
   

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How much delay are you using between each channel?  Peter found a sweet spot around 220ns with his setup.
   

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If you have a dual chan sig gen then you could take the pics out and drive each fet driver with each sig gen and set pulse width to 100nS and then vary the delay between the pulses, some where you will find the anomalous pulse if you can adjust in nS
He does have a dual chan sig gen that is capable of ns resolution, but  you'd need to be more specific how to program it.
So far we have 100ns pulse width, but what about the other timings and most importantly is VAR1 equal to VAR2 ?

« Last Edit: 2016-12-02, 00:54:51 by verpies »
   

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I seem to have misplaced my electret microphone / amplifier, so this test has to wait, but should it not sound the same as the sound picked up by the video camera mic?
Not necessarily because electret microphones are also good E-field sensors...besides acoustics.

When connecting a 120K resistor across my scope probe, a get the signals as can be seen in screenshot 2.
The amplitude seems too much for one loop of such small area.   Is there much difference with a shorted loop?  How about 20 turns of thin wire wrapped around a small short ferrite rod/bead ?

All positions around the coil seem to pick up a similar signal.
Which suggests E-field pickup

These signals are with 24V from a series set of battery instead of the 41V from the PS.   So we have no current limiting now and a 10A analog current meter on the batteries  sometimes goes all the way to 10A!
Could the MOSFETs be avalanching or getting stuck on?  High dv/dt from the drain of one MOSFET is capable of turning-on the other.  Investigate which way that current is flowing.

3) I can not see any abnormalities on the gate signal during the crackling, except these oscillations just before activating the MOSFET, see screenshot
Why are there oscillations before the first two rising edges but not before the third?  Weird...
   

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Sorry for the randomness of my answers, it must be contagious  :-),  or for any missed ones.
Here a video from some of the above tests:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SaiuJTtC8c

More tomorrow.......

Itsu
   

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How much delay are you using between each channel?  Peter found a sweet spot around 220ns with his setup.

I am not using any deliberate delays, both pic's (channels) are running on their own 20Mhz X-tal, no sync between them.
I will look into a delay setup like also mentioned by Peter.

Itsu
   

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He does have a dual chan sig gen that is capable of ns resolution, but  you'd need to be more specific how to program it.
So far we have 100ns pulse width, but what about the other timings and most importantly is VAR1 equal to VAR2 ?


Var1 & Var2 can be equal as long as Var is adjustable, he can adjust this, the width is the same but the narrower the better.

I would pick up ghostly noises on the electret microphone even feet away, sort of howling noises, there are videos of this noise but cannot remember which thread they are in now, if i come across them then i will post a link.

before i found this crackling noise using this method i found it before using 3 555 timers running at 1st ,2nd & 3rd harmonics with a trifilar wound around the ferrite, this time the ferrite seemed to crackle.

What do you make of the positive pulses picked up on the 120k resistor.??
   
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