As you may Know I have been working on this for a while and have started to develop ideas that may make it possible to use an off the shelf motor to perform the same function but I will keep this thread to the original concept. Over on the energetic forum John Bedini has asked if we have ant questions to ask the guy that handed him the device he has http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/6792-lockridge-device-peter-lindemann-32.html#post181090
I have posted some questions and some concepts, hoping John will respond so please take tile to read the thread to the end. I do hope John will take part in the discussion as I consider him a mentor. He also paid tribute to Armagdn03 http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/6792-lockridge-device-peter-lindemann-33.html#post181116
Here are the posts I made
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/6792-lockridge-device-peter-lindemann-33.html#post181133
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/6792-lockridge-device-peter-lindemann-33.html#post181183
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/6792-lockridge-device-peter-lindemann-33.html#post181189
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/6792-lockridge-device-peter-lindemann-33.html#post181193
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/6792-lockridge-device-peter-lindemann-33.html#post181265
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/6792-lockridge-device-peter-lindemann-33.html#post181278
As I have several burned out universal motors so I will do a partial reconstruction to test what I have postulated and give you updates as I progress. Please feel free to comment both positively and negatively because it is the negative responses that I can learn from
I'm very interested in the Lockridge device, and I appreciate that you are experimenting along these lines.
1.
Understanding that Bedini has such a device in hand, is he going to disclose -- "open source" -- with details so replications can take place? I hear he is going to do a "show and tell" at his upcoming conference (a big money-maker IMO), but is this an opportunity to provide details? or will he do so sooner than at the conference?
2. I would very much
appreciate your comments on the So African development, new report out from Sterling who did some checking. Report is here: http://pesn.com/2012/02/22/9602042_South_African_Fuel-Free_Generator_Preparing_for_Market/
Here's an excerpt:
QuoteWhat I witnessed, along with three other scientists that I brought along -- all more qualified than myself -- was a 5 kW unit powered by four batteries, running for three hours continuous, driving a load of approximately 4 KW. According to the amp-hour rating of those batteries (102 Ah each), without being recharged from an external source, they should have lasted only 35 minutes before running down completely, no longer able to power the system.
The load was roughly 4 kW, comprised of:
- a two-burner stove, each burner consuming 1 kW (rated power according to manufacturer)
- a toaster that consumed 850 Watts (rated power)
- a pancake maker that consumes 1 kW (rated power)
- A 40-Watt fan (rated power)
The total output was as high as 5 kW, as long as the generator was turned at 3000 rpm, and there was sufficient load. (The generator only produces as much power as is used). One time we plugged in more load than 5 kW and it caused the system to shut down, as it should in that circumstance.
The system was comprised of a series-wound, brushed, DC motor (slightly modified) powered by one bank of two 12-Volt batteries (102 Ah) wired in series for a 24-Volt output. The company says the back-EMF is harvested into a second, identical battery bank, which is also wired in series. These two banks are periodically cycled, trading places in the circuit, and the net charge stays essentially the same, across both banks. The optimized cycling of power and storing of the back-EMF are all controlled by a proprietary circuit board and software developed by the inventor. The motor shaft is connected directly to the shaft of the AC generator, which spins at 3,000 rpm to produce 5 kW of power at 50 Hz, 220-V.
There was no external power cord or fuel going to the system. They lifted the table on which the system was housed, to show that no cords were run through the legs into the floor to a hidden power source. It is a closed system as far as physical devices are concerned.
We didn't have a way to detect whether or not electromagnetic radiation might be in use to power the system inductively or wirelessly; but we did see all around the room as we entered through the first floor underneath the lab, and we could see what was on the other side of three of the four walls, and we could see the roof as we approached the building, which didn't have anything on top of it. The unit was in the middle of the room, maybe 15 feet away from the fourth wall that we didn't look on the other side of.
Data
Here is the data we collected from the third test we ran: [snip]
Do you give this any credence at this time? If you were to choose an AC generator for about 5kW output, what would you suggest? (Something available at a reasonable cost in the US -- and elsewhere! -- would be helpful..)
(Comments from others welcomed, too, of course.)
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2012.02.23, 05:50:51
I'm very interested in the Lockridge device, and I appreciate that you are experimenting along these lines.
1. Understanding that Bedini has such a device in hand, is he going to disclose -- "open source" -- with details so replications can take place? I hear he is going to do a "show and tell" at his upcoming conference (a big money-maker IMO), but is this an opportunity to provide details? or will he do so sooner than at the conference?
2. I would very much appreciate your comments on the So African development, new report out from Sterling who did some checking. Report is here: http://pesn.com/2012/02/22/9602042_South_African_Fuel-Free_Generator_Preparing_for_Market/
Here's an excerpt:
Do you give this any credence at this time? If you were to choose an AC generator for about 5kW output, what would you suggest? (Something available at a reasonable cost in the US -- and elsewhere! -- would be helpful..)
(Comments from others welcomed, too, of course.)
I don't know what JB's intentions are, just that he posted what he did on the forum. If he is going to do a "show and tell" at the conference I hope someone will tape it and let me have a copy, I would love to go myself but I am afraid that won't be possible. If they do make money, I don't have a problem with that, as everyone has to live and it is very difficult to make money in this field at this time. Are they charging a lot for the conference? I don't know but lets face it these people have put a lot of work in to get where they are and deserve some payback for their efforts. I hear John can be difficult to understand and isn't always the easiest to work with, he even admits to being grumpy. I think he is often misunderstood especially when he simplifies things so that we understand it. I really do hope that he will tell all he knows about this and other devices, lets face it with the way things are going we may have nothing to loose and that is my attitude. O0
On the south African thing. First of all I must say that I believe it is possible or I would not be working on these lines myself.
Sterling sounds very enthusiastic about what he was able to see and to my mind that is promising because he would look to see if there was an obvious scam.
The test results are meaningless and to some extent the loads too because we were not told enough information. For example, were all the loads run directly off the generator? or was there some interface between the generator, the batteries and the loads? I think most of us know it is relatively simple to oscillate a coil in an LC circuit at very high power off a small supply and a large heating element would get hot if it were wired into this circuit but how many watts of heat were being produced? etc. etc. So at this stage I am not going to make any judgements. If they have succeeded, I take my hat off to them and say congratulations and thankyou. For me it is not important about who gets there first, although whoever does deserves credit for it, its about getting it out.
I am interested to know what he means by "slightly modified motor" and what other main components are used such as coils and capacitor banks. The reason being, I believe such a device will include high voltage oscillations in a resonant circuit that is probably bi polar switched, Inductive kickback recovery and a means of translating high voltage into low voltage high current without killing the oscillation. I think I know how the switching must function in basic terms.
The reason for the control circuits is because, I believe, they are operating the motor below its normal operating range and it will be prone to stall in this condition. It would have been easier to just connect the generator to the grid and let the motor rise to the load, therefore no control needed.
As I said at the start, I believe it is possible and it could be done with two 100Ah batteries, so we should take it seriously and request more information. You never know, they might have it. ;)
I have not spent a lot of time on looking at generators although I believe this will be an optimum size of generator. I looked more at the motors that could be used to power them such as the Agni motor and golf cart motors. I would look for low start-up torque and high efficiency.
What do you think of the posts I made about the original lockridge device?
Thanks for the response, Michael. And I'll let you fellas know if I hear anything particular from Sterling. He lives just six miles from my home...
Michael -- I've enjoyed your posts on the Lockridge device... not that I understand 100%. I don't. But it sounds like you're really getting into this. You wrote:
Quotewhere do I tap the inductive kickback? ( I have placed diodes in the possible locations and not all will be used) the sim won't run it easily so only real testing will do and this takes time and money.
Yes, where do you " tap the inductive kickback?" Any more ideas on that? (and not just for the Lockridge -- seems the So African guys are (allegedly) doing this...)
I sent Sterling an email asking him if he noticed any similarities to my work but I doubt he will look as he must receive many such emails and it will take time for him to read all the things I have done. I know it is possible and they may have it, but how would you recognize it if you don't know what to look for.
We always take inductive kickback from the negative side of the coil but when you effectively have many coils in series there are oscillations between them that can be tapped too.
Take a look at this test by Jean-Louis Naudin http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/bifvsbuk.htm These are all relevant to universal motors, especially if wave wound, but in the third one you should look at the response if you short out the disconnected coil, an amplification of the oscillations can be created. He does not show this. Please test this yourself. Now look at the second test here http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/biftest.htm The second test on this page is a condition we get on a wave wound rotor at the commutator. These are all inputs that I cannot simulate and this is what I am hinting at, how best to use them.
The inductive kickback can also be collected through a transformer and that is exactly what we have in a comutated wave wound rotor and also in a pair of powered and unpowered field coils. If we make it flow in the same direction as the generated power in in these field coils, we have a gain. That is two outputs for one input.
You might have noticed that this all relates to the original device and not to using an off the shelf motor. So now I have to get into winding and I should be able to start that next week and then build a test rig.
In work that some guys are doing on another thread there is proof that magnetism does not consume power but I don't think they have recognized this and while it does not appear that related to my work it actually is. http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/10610-3-battery-generating-system.html running this as a test would be interesting. Measure the power consumed from the source and compare it with the mechanical power of the motor and the charge gained in the third battery. If the motor is above 70% efficient I bet we would have more out than in.
The whole principle is that producing a magnetic field does not itself consume power.
I need to explain more, the coils in a universal motor are in effect bucking coils if pulsed. so looking at test 4 here http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/bifvsbuk.htm L1 ans L2 represent the motor its just that we don't have a collector coil for the spike. In the lockridge device the two generator field coils are likely to act as the collector coils or L3.
In test three L1 is the armature and L3 the generator field coil with the armature discharging through the collector brushes. It is also possible for us to effectively short L2, the motor coils, with a diode allowing increased oscillations.
Now looking at this page http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/biftest.htm L1 and L2 represent adjacent coils on the armature and L3 the stator. This is when the commutator power brushes are offset from 180 degrees to cause pulsing again the spikes can be collected through the recovery brushes.
There is no wonder that they modified the motors to eliminate this, without collector brushes the arcing would have rapidly burned out the power brushes and commutator.
Quote from: mbrownn on 2012.02.25, 07:33:12
In work that some guys are doing on another thread there is proof that magnetism does not consume power but I don't think they have recognized this and while it does not appear that related to my work it actually is. http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/10610-3-battery-generating-system.html running this as a test would be interesting. Measure the power consumed from the source and compare it with the mechanical power of the motor and the charge gained in the third battery. If the motor is above 70% efficient I bet we would have more out than in.
The whole principle is that producing a magnetic field does not itself consume power.
I forgot to add if this is a pulse motor where we collect the inductive kickback :-[
Am reading along here )
Just a bit difficult to visualise some aspects, so it will be great to see your work in build photo's.
What i'm looking at mentally, is a starter motor, with a different ring than the standard commutator and that can be readily removed and adjusted. As to coils, i've always wondered if the Lockridge used 2 coils in the same physical space as 1, either side by side or more likely front and back. The reason would be because 1 of them would have a resistor and cap across to assist the normal dead spot of a changing magnetic field. The thinking comes from watching those magnet only motors with the V lines of magnets.
Regarding your comment of
Quotethere is proof that magnetism does not consume power but I don't think they have recognized this
I noted in this video, that no more input amperage was being used to magnetically spin 4 rotors, than with the rotation of a single rotor. The final speed was exactly the same *. It seems to corroborate your thought and I hope it is of use.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9V8BEtqRbg
*the Hummer circuit I developed simply uses the fact that 50/60Hz mains sine wave oscillations will ride on the top of a DC adapter output. Spinning a rotor by hand to start and at an exact RPM, will run the motor...the coil performing just like a pulse motor being switched at that rate. The point being, that the rotor has to turn at an exact rate to run. Introducing the non powered free wheeling rotors one by one gave the video above.
Quote from: Slider2732 on 2012.02.25, 20:38:33
Am reading along here )
Just a bit difficult to visualise some aspects, so it will be great to see your work in build photo's.
I will do O0
Quote from: Slider2732 on 2012.02.25, 20:38:33
What i'm looking at mentally, is a starter motor, with a different ring than the standard commutator and that can be readily removed and adjusted. As to coils, i've always wondered if the Lockridge used 2 coils in the same physical space as 1, either side by side or more likely front and back. The reason would be because 1 of them would have a resistor and cap across to assist the normal dead spot of a changing magnetic field. The thinking comes from watching those magnet only motors with the V lines of magnets.
I have a starter motor, in unfortunately they have the wrong armature winding and are not built for efficiency although I will probably have a go at rewinding it at some point. Not sure what you mean about the resistor and cap can you explain better please?
Quote from: Slider2732 on 2012.02.25, 20:38:33
Regarding your comment of I noted in this video, that no more input amperage was being used to magnetically spin 4 rotors, than with the rotation of a single rotor. The final speed was exactly the same *. It seems to corroborate your thought and I hope it is of use.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9V8BEtqRbg
Remember this is an open magnetic circuit, he could keep adding rotors but at some point he will see the current rise. This is not because the magnetism is drawing current but because the extra rotor magnets will start to saturate the core of his coil reducing the impedance.
A standard LRC circuit...coil, resistor, cap.
In a traditional DC motor/generator with 3 windings at 120 degrees, 2 of them are standard. The 3rd is split in two, front and back but both connect to the same motor connections as though they were just 1 regular winding.
The rear one energises and collapses just like the other 2 coils did, but here we see a difference with the other half in front of it. That coil takes longer to unload its magnetic fields and collapse voltage. The short ringing available, because of the capacitor and resistor, allows for a smoothing or damping at an otherwise overly critical brush switching position.
in situations where full or nothing isn't the requirement (such as to have a motor speed limited because of a slow reaction by a transistor 'turn on' time, the signal would still be available after the point at which switching could be missed by microseconds. Load changes, speed changes etc could be less timing critical.
With regard to those V motors with the gate problems - such a system may allow a rotor to at least be less sticky, at that traditionally troublesome gate spot.
So, probably not relevant, but that's an explanation of the thought :)
Btw, I noted the 'he'...that was one of my vids, was great fun as a simple experiment :)
Something similar was actually practical as a motor method for R/C planes some while back. One regular 6mm coreless motor with a magnet on the end, spun between two 'dummy' motors. The 'dummy' ones were cylinder neos with pins through as axles and had propellers on the ends. Such that, the spinning of the middle actual motor rotated the two outer ones and in sync. A situation of a 'motor out' or one turning slower than the other couldn't happen.
Slider, I have never seen a motor generator like that, can you post a link?
If you are interested in doing some tests, I have just seen a video that shows how to wind a wave wound 2 pole armature, It's not mine but shows the basic layout for two poles. The instruction begins 2.44 into the video. He also points out one problem with some wave configurations ie. opposing current.
This pattern will be suitable for testing the commutator configuration, and interactions between the coils. Notice how he splits the coil for balance, It could be improved slightly by winding the two halves of the coil in adjacent slots on the rotor as this will narrow the pole a little but doing this also has the downside of halving the number of coils you can fit which will increase ripple magnitude. You could overlap the coils if you co not totally fill the slots but this may cause differing impedance's as the coils would be wound bigger on the ones that overlap. The speed may also be twice as fast as it allows more turns and or bigger wire. Remember we need very low resistance. In the end all these options need to be tested. http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=Q9CLtlkl6fM
The split coil motor is only a vision of the mind....at the moment. It's part of my interest in this whole Lockridge thing, to discover and learn more about configurations.
It's a good video.you linked to, anything like that is always of interest for radio controlled projects :)
There are a few vehicles made last year that could be testbeds for different winds. Traction and speed needing to come from very simple tough arrangements in model cars.
Hey, let me post this, speaking of visions, but personally it holds similar intrigue to the Lockridge.
This motor was in a dream (yes that's why I haven't mentioned it on public forums LOL). It was running and I sincerely hope you can make sense of it or may have seen it somewhere. I presume i've seen it before and the mind got it to run.
It was brushed, but used what is deemed to be a spark gap separately to brushes. All was set in the late 19th century and the motor was tabletop sized.
The contacts in the middle of the rotor had screw threads on, which means presumably they were movable, could be used to tune. The spark, I would imagine, would act as a flash short or was the motor generating the spark ?
What I found very interesting, was that it had a starting handle ! The handle wasn't moving in the dream, which would mean a slip clutch type of connection. I'm really interested in whether the battery connections were input or output !
The small boxes within the circuit were made of a polished wood, they would seem to be capacitors. Perhaps they're not, Leyden jars probably suiting that timeframe.
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a129/slider27/100_0057-2.jpg)
It is true that some old generators used to have adjusters on the commutators back in the days of Tesla and before and these generators did have coils arranged it the way you show http://www.techfestival.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/generator1.jpg Of course it could be from a movie like Frankenstein because those sets were how people imagined Tesla's labs to be
WOW :D
That pic is really very close !
I'm not much of a movie buff, though can easily see that a subliminal input may have gone on at any time in the past.
When I drew it out, it looked like a brushless motor with 'bits on' lol. Thanks for finding that.
Kinda makes one wonder about finding a split coil motor now, perhaps in Doc Browns lab from Back To The Future ;D
But related..here is a quote from your good self:
QuoteFrequency is a double edged sward that can work for us and against us. As it takes time for current to rise in a coil we need the on time to be as long as possible to allow enough current to flow to make the motor turn but if this time is too long the energy that is recovered from the inductive kickback is reduced in comparison to the input. Once we reach a certain frequency the maximum supplied current is inversely proportional to the frequency and this limits our motor current if we allow our inductive kickback to dissipate to zero. Also as frequency rises, the period of time the inductive kickback lasts becomes greater on proportion to the input we provide.
It makes sense that we maximize this so that if we have a motor that is 50% powered by us and 50% powered by the inductive kickback we have just doubled our efficiency.
Sounds like the split coil idea may have a furtherment direction !
People talk of stators with each tooth being individual and being a whole element as a pole. What if we cut the stator in half, to give an adjustable offset ?
The thought also arises to make each tooth L shaped, allowing for the "on time to be as long as possible", but adjustable, such that the L can become a 'T' shape when moved across the traditional tooth face. :)
Either or both sides of each tooth end piece bar (which would create the 'T') could be wound in a repeated tooth pattern, like we have Star and Delta say, to facilitate the switching time characteristics required. The fields would then be less reliant on switching circuitry, they would 'naturally' rise and fall due to the lagging and advancement of the 'T' shape.
If the motor has adjustable 'T' sections, using the split mentioned, then alignments become tunable.
For a starter motor or generator, the case could be split and a piece inserted, to increase the total length by around an inch and allow the extra assembly to be fitted.
If we wired such pieces bifilar to the tooth windings, then, well it could be very interesting, in the way that a bifilar coil outperforms a single winding..
Found this very interesting just now too, the lost Bob Teal interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aj7oD8JG5xU
when we wind the armature as in the video I linked to above, we need to keep the resistance low but get as many turns on as we can I am planning on #22 wire which should give me around 60 turns and around 0.1 ohm. We will need the same amount of turns on one side of the universal motor stator and this works out at about 0.13 ohms as the coil has slightly larger dimensions to get the wire in. The other stator winding need to be about 2.75 times the amount of turns so I will put 3 times as many on because it is easier to remove turns than add them.
Hopefully I will have this done in the next week
This is the Lockridge circuit I will be using with the 2 pole universal motor, http://www.falstad.com/circuit/#%24+1+1.0E-6+5.459815003314424+40+5.0+50%0A178+560+432+592+432+0+2+2.0E-9+-5.53E-322+0.05+100000.0+0.02+20.0%0Av+560+464+560+480+0+2+600.0+5.0+5.0+0.0+0.5%0AT+704+384+752+416+0+0.01+1.0+3.768138727056976+3.7681387270569733+0.35%0Ar+704+416+704+432+0+0.1%0Ar+752+416+752+432+0+0.1%0A178+800+432+848+432+0+2+2.0E-9+-5.53E-322+0.05+100000.0+0.02+20.0%0Aw+560+480+800+480+0%0Aw+560+464+800+464+0%0Av+704+448+704+432+0+0+40.0+4.0+0.0+0.0+0.5%0Av+752+448+752+432+0+0+40.0+4.0+0.0+0.0+0.5%0Aw+800+384+752+384+0%0Aw+704+448+656+448+0%0Aw+656+448+656+432+0%0Aw+656+432+560+432+0%0Aw+752+448+800+448+0%0Aw+800+448+800+432+0%0AT+704+512+752+544+0+0.0050+2.75+7.5362774541147965+-4.068900567303419+0.35%0Aw+512+512+672+512+0%0Aw+928+304+560+304+0%0Aw+512+304+512+416+0%0Aw+864+352+864+400+0%0Aw+864+352+416+352+0%0Aw+704+384+560+384+0%0Ar+672+512+704+512+0+0.13%0Ar+752+512+800+512+0+0.357%0Av+672+544+704+544+0+0+40.0+8.0+0.0+0.0+0.5%0Av+800+544+752+544+0+0+40.0+33.0+0.0+0.0+0.5%0Aw+800+512+1008+512+0%0Aw+1008+224+320+224+0%0Aw+800+592+320+592+0%0Aw+320+592+320+416+0%0Ar+272+416+320+416+0+100.0%0Ad+272+368+320+368+1+0.805904783%0Av+208+416+208+368+0+0+40.0+14.4+0.0+0.0+0.5%0As+320+224+320+368+0+0+false%0Ad+928+448+928+304+1+0.805904783%0Aw+848+448+848+464+0%0Aw+848+448+928+448+0%0Aw+848+400+864+400+0%0Aw+704+384+704+368+0%0Aw+704+368+752+368+0%0Aw+752+368+752+384+0%0Aw+752+448+704+448+0%0Aw+384+368+592+368+0%0Aw+592+416+512+416+0%0Aw+512+416+512+512+0%0Ad+416+416+416+352+1+0.805904783%0As+208+416+272+416+0+1+false%0As+208+368+272+368+0+1+false%0Aw+1008+512+1008+224+0%0Aw+672+544+416+544+0%0Aw+416+544+416+416+0%0Ac+320+368+320+416+0+5.0E-4+31.07726511418358%0A181+176+512+176+272+0+300.0000000005227+15.0+30.0+0.0040+0.0040%0As+176+272+320+368+0+1+false%0Aw+176+512+320+416+0%0Aw+800+544+800+592+0%0AT+384+144+416+160+0+0.0010+1.0+-0.0013788238549987675+0.0+0.999%0Aw+336+368+336+144+0%0Aw+336+144+384+144+0%0Aw+384+176+384+368+0%0Aw+336+368+320+368+0%0Aw+416+176+448+176+0%0AT+480+144+512+176+0+0.0010+1.0+0.0+0.0037275688124380757+0.999%0Aw+512+304+512+176+0%0Aw+512+144+560+144+0%0Aw+560+144+560+304+0%0Aw+448+176+480+176+0%0Ad+416+80+448+48+1+0.805904783%0Ad+480+80+448+48+1+0.805904783%0Ad+448+112+416+80+1+0.805904783%0Ad+448+112+480+80+1+0.805904783%0Aw+416+80+416+144+0%0Aw+480+144+480+80+0%0Aw+448+112+1104+112+0%0Aw+1104+112+1104+624+0%0Aw+1104+624+320+624+0%0Aw+320+624+320+592+0%0Aw+448+48+320+48+0%0Aw+320+48+320+224+0%0Aw+320+416+416+416+0%0As+336+368+384+368+0+0+false%0As+512+304+560+304+0+0+false%0Ao+43+64+0+33+28.63890391847496+18.32889850782398+0+-1%0Ao+10+64+0+289+8.749002899132048+11.198723710889022+1+-1%0Ao+26+64+1+291+261.87124863169134+9.765625000000001E-155+2+-1%0Ao+26+64+0+289+18.707220957835556+5.986310706507378+2+-1%0Ao+33+64+1+291+5.83992399055641E-5+9.765625000000001E-205+3+-1%0Ao+17+64+0+289+0.9175488853876983+9.395700586370031+4+-1%0Ao+49+64+0+35+149.65776766268445+5.986310706507378+4+-1%0Ao+51+64+0+35+74.82888383134222+11.972621413014757+4+-1%0Ao+52+64+0+291+74.82888383134222+11.972621413014757+5+-1%0Ao+52+64+1+291+320.0+9.765625E-5+5+-1%0Ao+53+64+1+35+7.62939453125E-5+9.765625E-5+6+-1%0Ao+24+64+1+35+10.0+9.765625E-5+7+-1%0Ao+23+64+1+35+10.0+9.765625E-5+7+-1%0Ao+3+64+1+35+2.5+9.765625E-5+7+-1%0Ao+4+64+1+35+2.5+9.765625E-5+7+-1%0A Although the two stator coils are at opposite poles they are shown as a transformer in the circuit.
Graph 1 = input current
Graph 2 = Recovery current
Graph 3 = Generator output
Graph 4 = Battery power
Graph 5 = Motor current
Graph 6 = Capacitor voltage current and power
Graph 7 = External load
Graph 8 = Resistance losses
The circuit is showing overunity when you compare input power with generator output, why? Because the recovery is powering the motor for half the time just as in PWM plus some more interesting effects I will detail later. PWM has been used for many years to improve the efficiency of motors, in some conditions, almost doubling the efficiency. Nothing new here.
At the same time we are generating and of course the generating power has to be less than the motor power. Our goal is to maximise the reactive power and generate at a rate that is above the input and below the combined input and reactive power So why have we been unable to create overunity motor generators with ease
1 The efficiency of modern motors is low, this is because we build in resistance to prevent a motor burning out too quickly and of course using thinner wire makes the motor smaller and cheaper.
2 We are told it is impossible.
Our next gain in this system is because we do not have the additional friction that we would get with an external generator with its own bearings. To add to this we do not get the additional iron losses that would be generated in an external generator because the cores have already been saturated by the motor function.
The next gain is the transformer effect. When we input the power it will not only create the magnetic field which powers the motor, it will induce a current in the generator in exactly the same way as happens in a transformer and exactly the same thing happens on the coil collapse. This is because while ever the magnetic field is rising or falling a current is induced in the second winding of a transformer. Because of this we cannot allow the current to ramp up as we do in PWM or the rate of change in the transformer effect is reduced.
Now we have had 2 very significant gains on the original power put into the motor or a potential COP of 4. Of course due to resistance and other losses our true figure will be somewhat less.
What can we expect using a universal motor? An off the shelf universal motor runs at about 35% efficient on AC and maybe 45% on DC so it would be reasonable to assume that we will get an efficiency of somewhere in between these two figures. and the pulsing has a potential to almost double that. The increase in efficiency on DC is in part due to reduced Iron losses as the iron does not have to switch from one polarity to the other. This is also true of PWM motors, again nothing new here.
The transformer effect has two benefits, not only providing motor power but it lowers the impedance of the secondary coil allowing more current to flow from the generated output, in fact it works as a negative resistance increasing the generated power.
Our down side comes by the fact that the pole of our motor is not sweeping past the generator coil, it is in fact only moving a few degrees. I expect that because of this we may get poor generation.
As you can see there are many positive effects in this setup but the combination of the negative effects and poor efficiency will likely mean that this motor will not be in overunity and will not run itself. I have chosen to reduce the resistance of the coils to mitigate this somewhat but still expect results that are less than what we want.
This experiment is not likely to be an absolute failure, we will be able to monitor voltages, currents and gains and losses giving us a better understanding of what we need to do to succeed. If we are able to do that I will consider it a success.
What I already know is that we will need a more efficient motor to start with if we are to succeed.
Comments please
Mike --
"What I already know is that we will need a more efficient motor to start with if we are to succeed."
A while back, I purchased some inexpensive DC motors used in model airplanes -- back to Slider's realm here! ;)
Now this is a far cry from the power needed for the motors you are discussing, yet the efficiency is probably very high. Made in Japan IIRC. You may consider going this route -- for tests, anyway.
Meanwhile, I made some progress yesterday with the sonic boiler... Great working with you guys! We'll breakthrough "the barrier" one of these days.
To use this method you have to use a universal type motor, permanent magnet motors won't work because you don't have the transformer effects.
To do it with PM motors it is a different approach which I am still working on but controlling it is a problem, the slightest change in load and any gains disappear The other problem is how to turn the gain into motive power without killing it. All I have managed to do is create a gain in heat, maybe I should attach it to your boiler ;D
BTW I made a few errors in the component values and pulse width in the circuit I posted, I had been altering things to see what effect it may have.
I purchased the #22 wire today and started to prepare the commutator for bigger wire although I haven't found any good brush holders yet. I don't want to do a botch job like I did last time, it works out costly in the end and set me back a couple of months. I will keep looking until I find something.
I think a breakthrough with the original Lockridge has been made already, we just have to prove it now. To me its a breakthrough, Its all about reuse and recycle and turning an unwanted side effect into an advantage. I want to squeeze every last joule of energy out of that inductive kickback because that is what comes for free as does the magnetic field that it produces.
The power we are running in the motor is very big when compared to the load we can run off it. I believe the lockridge was probably running at 1.2Kw and only giving up to 300w output, so with a 100w motor I wont be getting much
I have just finished winding my rotor for the Lockridge prototype I am building so I thought I would post a few pics for you to look at.
There are 6 coils wound on this rotor and each coil is connected only to two segments of the commutator set at 180 degrees apart. Note that there is a blank segment between each live segment. It is wound with #22 wire and each coil has 30 turns which is around 12milli Henries if I got my maths right. The resistance is considerably less than 1 ohm. It was quite difficult to get all those turns in and they will have to be secured with epoxy before it is run to prevent it flying apart.
Hope the links work, Its the first time I have done this.
https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=a04023352770e252&resid=A04023352770E252!211&parid=A04023352770E252!210&authkey=!ANwaRAWG5YrJQX0
https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=a04023352770e252&resid=A04023352770E252!212&parid=A04023352770E252!210&authkey=!AN11oPZz_WL9yHM
https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=a04023352770e252&resid=A04023352770E252!213&parid=A04023352770E252!210&authkey=!AHlmTfe2iraSA7Y
https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=a04023352770e252&resid=A04023352770E252!214&parid=A04023352770E252!210&authkey=!AEsBeSRsaDY84_I
The links didn't work so lets try this
https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=a04023352770e252&resid=A04023352770E252!210&parid=A04023352770E252!119&authkey=!AP_Obl1yX4P7tJs
The links don't work but if you copy and past the whole line into your address bar it should work, let me know if it does not
Lookin' good :)
Bet you can't wait to fire it up. Epoxy should be fine, as i'm sure you know. Windings held with superglue tend to be eaten over time, when the glue warms and the chemicals are released. Have bust a couple of R/C self wound brushless motors like that :-[
For uploads, I just use the space here and take directly from the camera or desktop. EF forum has a woeful space limit, but here seems fine.
In the 'Additional options' section when posting.
You got me thinking, with that winding shown above.
A friend of mine, who I haven't seen for a year or so, brought over a spare part from the Lexus dealership where he works. That was last year. He wondered if I wanted the motor. The assembly, was from the rear boot/trunk/assembly at the back of a new Lexus car. I put the box in the shed and thought about a wind turbine or something for the future.
Well, dragged it out tonight and removed the motor section (geek me used a selfmade 1.5V AA battery to 2W mains lightbulb inverter, to see in the shed lol). The brushes are part of the main assembly, but i'm intending to use my own brush system anyway.
Made by Denso (Nippon Denso ?)
12V, made in 2006. Unfortunately there are a lot of details missing from the lightly paint transferred details section.
It's only about 6" total length, so isn't any form of power house setup.
But, it's wound with 22 gauge and looks a lot like your motor above, at least initially.
The 2 magnets on the part housing, shown in the pic below, are seemingly neodymium. Very strong, unexpectedly so. Presumably they are barium cobalt or some such though. Anyway, i'm intending to try electromagnetics on this thing, with the rotor housed vertically - there is an excellent ball bearing mounted in the back of it, on which to balance. At the front is a ring bearing, which I can put a non ferrous tuning fork type of thing under. It then ends up vertically mounted and relatively easy to dismantle to try things.
It looks like it was only used for running in the motor, the assembly it was attached to still has new greasing around it.
So, Mike, I might be able to help out somewhere with tests or arrangements or something. Just let me know :)
Unfortunately the field windings are an integral part of how the Lockridge works but there is another device that works on the same principal you could make. Its Tesla too, are you interested? you will have to rewind the rotor but yours looks big enough to do it with. Claimed cop of 2.7 in the latest patent. the thing is as always everything isn't in the patent so people don't know how it works but now I do. The end of big oil is in sight.
The information I am about to give is theoretical, I would like you to keep in this group only until we have a working device, I hope you will all respect that. :-X
To understand what a Lockridge device is we need to look at all its functions.
The motor function is well understood but I have come to the conclusion that little or no power is converted to magnetism and that magnetism is a free byproduct of passing a current through a wire. This has no effect on the function of the Lockridge device other than the current causes magnetism and it does not matter where the current comes from. It may become a factor if we use a three battery, Tesla style, power supply.
Inductive Kickback is a function used in PWM to improve efficiency in DC motors and is one of the key requirements of a Lockridge device. This area alone has not been able to increase efficiency enough for us to create a self running device although in theory it should be possible. Inductive kickback gives us a second current in the motor that is in the same direction as the applied current. This current also powers a forward motion in a motor, If there were no losses in a motor, the inductive kickback would be equal to the applied current and so the COP would be 2
The transformer action is a key requirement of the Lockridge device. We know that in an ideal transformer, 100% of the power passed into a transformer in the form of AC or Pulsed DC, can be recovered from the secondary winding. Normally the magnetic forces are held within the core and not used for any other purpose but In a lockridge these magnetic forces are used to power the motor. In a series wound universal motor these forces are cancelled out in a way that no transformer action can occur giving a benefit to the motor function. In other versions of the universal motor it is used to smooth out or flatten the power and speed characteristics, especially under PWM. In a Lockridge device this transformer action is channeled into a second set of field windings where we can draw off the power. The higher the power we draw from these windings the more power we draw from the source, this increases the current flow and so increases the motor action. Now we have an electrical output from the secondary windings equal to the input, less losses, plus a motor function directly proportional to the current. If loading the motor also increases power on the transformer this will also increase the transformer output. This would give us a situation where the more current we draw from the second windings the more power we get in the motor. It remains to be seen if this gives a gain and so tests will have to be done to see if this is the case. This is one of the tests I intend to do with the motor I am building. In the original Lockridge device this was the reason the frame had to be split lengthways, if it were not split there would be a canceling of the effect. If this does give the gain of two outputs for one input again we have a COP of 2 and 2x2 = 4
Generator functions are well documented but if the generator coils output in the same direction as the transformer action we have two outputs for one input. i.e our motor is able to power the generator in a normal way plus the transformer action.
Efficiency. This has been the reason why we cannot make a self running device with PWM on a motor and a generator attached to it. Our losses consisted of two parts friction, one in the motor and one in the generator, two parts iron, one in the motor and one in the generator. The ohmic losses will be the same as will other losses. In a Lockridge device we have only one set of bearings and no additional radial or axial loads so we have effectively halved this loss. This also applies for the Iron losses as the cores will have been saturated by the motor action. If we also take into consideration the transformer action which also has iron losses we can see that our iron loss will be in effect one third of three separate devices. This may not be a gain in terms of power but is a significant gain in terms of efficiency.
Our Universal motor may only be 35% efficient and maybe a little over 42% on DC but PWM will take that up to 84% at best. The transformer action cannot have any iron losses as this has already been taken into account with the motor losses so should be close to zero. This would give us another 100% less ohmic losses or around 184% at best. The generated output will have no friction losses although it will have additional iron losses as it opposes the collapse of the magnetic field. Assuming we have good geometry of the motor and generator we will have another 84% minus this unknown iron loss and ohmic loss. Because we are in effect using a triangle wave in the motor our iron loss cannot be more than half that of the motor and this additional loss may even reduce the iron losses of the motor on the next pulse but let us assume it is half that of the motor. This would mean that we have 96% of 84% or slightly over 80% generated power, 184 + 80 = 264% or a COP of 2.64 less ohmic losses and the friction of the extra brushes.
Please comment :-\
I *think* i'm understanding those various fields and magnetics interactions.
It's why the thoughts turned to electromagnetics rather than permanent magnets, as you stated earlier on. The way a permanent magnet will hold a permanent force is something both beneficial and yet also very very bad for a motor trying to get into decent COP ratings. At some speed of rotation and switch point, the ever present magnetic flux lines become the limiter..
The push of the collapsing coil should be used in preference to the standard motive charge of a powered coil. See, that has always confused me...if the returning spike from a field collapse is apparently stronger than the force which created it, then why do we not power motors with the collapsing force rather than the creating force ? Turn it all around 180 degrees.
That type of thinking is part of my interest in your experiments :)
I hope you don't mind the inclusion of my offshoot experiments.
I wished to merely get this rotor spinning. It's not my usual type of motor, normally brushless outrunners or small Mabuchi cassette motors. But, having developed several systems in the past, i'm always game for motor experiments.
2 example short videos and intending to show interest.
< 1gram fingernail sized brushless: http://vimeo.com/12189745
Twin propellers, wireless, magnetics based: http://vimeo.com/12068730
So a test system is now in place, which I hope can further an open cased approach to field control and various waveshape runnings.
Pic is below and the motor runs, albeit much like a homopolar at the moment. The original brushes are shown, to the right of the mirror. They kept catching and so simple wire pieces were used. It spun up true and didn't show procession, which was what I was looking for. The top bearing is merely hotglued for the first tests.
Next, is to build up external electromagnet coils and rewind the rotor with a finer gauge. Looking at it closer, there are only about 8 turns per section and it's more like 20 gauge !
This is a conversation I am having with a guy on Imhoteps forum
Quote from: hi waterThanks for the PM. None of the armatures i have are wave wound. Was hoping there wouild be one.
You will have to do a rewind, but don't be put off .
Quote from: hi waterYou are taiking about the geometry of the poles. is that the feild coils. In the a motor generator (motor-gen coils). I was thinking earlier this year about the degrees of difference from true north and magnetic north. But doesnt seem like much room inside the case to get the coils in the right place. You will have to explain your thinking on this to me a little more if you want.
Yes, as you are aware the best motoring position will not be the best generating position so it is just a matter of tuning when you have the thing running. I do not know the correct angles to set the motor and generator coils at but I am sure that the info will be on the net somewhere.
Quote from: hi waterMy armatures have 14 slots with 28 commutator bars.
Excelent.
Quote from: hi waterYes i believe both the motor and gen have to be in the same case. But you can motorise with only one coil
Yes I am working on that with the universal motors I have as these motors only have two poles.
Quote from: hi waterbeen working on those bucking coils as you call them, getting input power down.
This may not be necessary but could help in getting the maximum power out.
Quote from: hi waterMoney is the big hold up. so i keep working on with what i have on hand. How do i get you some money so you can work on this with out having to take all your work money to experiment on this. I believe if this was made to self sustain, the technology should be given out to third world countries to be used . Not to the governments, but to the people. I dont think it would ever be allowed to be patented here in the US. I dont want to do that anyway thats your baby.
Yes that is my problem. and your sentiment is exactly the same as mine. Steve Jones has helped me by sending some money although I am reluctant to accept such generosity. With the money he sent I was able to purchase a variac and a 2Kw motor and test one of my earlier theories. Yes I got an increase of power in the motor but not in mechanical or electrical output, all the extra power was converted to heat. :cry: I was so upset that I could not produce that I am even more reluctant to accept further donations. I am still working with Steve Jones and if you help me I am sure he would accept you to his private group. His and my goals are exactly as you listed above.
Quote from: hi waterYour saying it much more than a motor. Please explain your thoughts on this. I have to get out and get to work . will continue this later.
This is the key to the Lockridge device. When I tell you you will say why didn't I see it before?
It is a motor and a generator but with only one set of iron losses so by this reason alone it is more efficient than separate motors and generators. Now what is the third action? Think about it. We are pulsing an input coil with a second output coil on the same iron frame. ITS A TRANSFORMER too and because there are no iron losses because the core has been saturated by the motor action, it is efficient. We have three devices on the same core!!!! and only one set of iron losses. Its as simple as that.
Of course we will have to tune it so that all the actions are simultaneous and this is where the geometry comes in. Of course the gain could be converted to heat as before but I don't think so in this case because there is not a big gain in voltage.
Now lets do some maths
A normal universal motor is 35% efficient on AC, so with an input of 100w, we get 35w of mechanical power. We will also get a transformer action of somewhere above 35w because there is no friction loss or additional iron loss. This will give us around 70+ watts as a minimum. The reactive output on the inductive kickback will be less than this but lets say it is 35% of 35w or 12.25w, now we have 82.25 watts. We can expect as a minimum to get 35% of 35 + 12.25w as a generated output or 16.5375w. this will give us a total of 98.7875 watts electrical output or almost enough to run our motor.
It gets better. In the above calculation I have counted the iron loss three times but we don't have that. how much we will get depends upon how well we build it, but starting with a generator with a higher efficiency than 35% can only make it better. Add to this the fact that universal motors are more efficient on DC.
Thanks, Mike.
Hi water certainly seems to be a good man! Pls let us know if you think he would indeed contribute to this group; sounds like it.
Wish I had more funds to support such; I do have some... let me know. (perhaps by email)
Mike:
QuoteThis is a conversation I am having with a guy on Imhoteps forum
Which forum is this? thx.
Its the first forum I got involved with when learning about JB's circuits. I am a moderator on that site now. Hiwater has been using that forum for a year now, he seems to be particularly interested in the Lockridge device and has a number of Delco Remy generators. As he already has some similar generators to the original device It should be a relatively simple task to modify one to the Lockridge circuit.
http://imhotepslabs.freeforums.org/
In these two threads below you can see how my ideas have evolved over time into what I believe now but due to the lack of traffic I started using the energetic forum. I accept that my original thoughts were not how the lockridge device works although some of it could be incorporated to improve it. I think it is a learning curve
http://imhotepslabs.freeforums.org/was-the-lockridge-device-the-original-parallel-path-motor-t234.html
http://imhotepslabs.freeforums.org/the-lockridge-device-t204.html
I don't know Hiwater personally but he does seem focused on the lockridge device.
I have received a reply from Hiwater
"Mike, I dont know Steve, Is he involved in the F.E. community. I believe I would be interested in joining you guys in the Research and Developement of this technology. I have lots of generators to work with . Dont know much about the real electric circuits boards and such. I have had a lot of experience working on these generators. If you think i would be able to help then i would be interested."
Mike,
Quote from: mbrownn on 2012.03.23, 15:34:48
I have received a reply from Hiwater
"Mike, I dont know Steve, Is he involved in the F.E. community. I believe I would be interested in joining you guys in the Research and Developement of this technology. I have lots of generators to work with . Dont know much about the real electric circuits boards and such. I have had a lot of experience working on these generators. If you think i would be able to help then i would be interested."
Guess we'll have to get acquainted ;)
pls invite him to take a look at my web page:
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/
Sure, with your recommendation Mike, I would gladly welcome hiwater.
Are there any objections? If not, Chet or I just need his email address and we can get him signed in. My request would be that he not be anonymous; it's good to know who we are working with.
I'm finally settled to begin some experiments on Davey devices. First to see if the controls behave the same here near sea level, as they do at about 5,800 feet altitude where I live.
Update on my discussions with Hiwater.
Quote from: hiwaterHi Mbrownn. did you ever get a chance to try out your armature. Was wondering how it worked for you. I pulled all the wires off one I had here today. Going to try to rewind one my self.
Did you run wire on half of the slots for each commutator segment or how did you do that. Was also wondering if skipping every other comm bar would be the way to do it. I asume the wire is all wound in one direction. This is pretty new to me but I will give it a try. Thanks curt.
Not yet, I haven't found any good brushes yet, its very frustrating.
My rotor has half the number of slots as segments on the commutator so I filled all the slots. It is 2 pole so it is a simple task, is yours 4 pole? Also how wide are your keepers on the field windings? I ask so that we can make a good job of it.
On a 2 pole you start at one commutator segment, go to the slot at 90 degrees and then wind an equal number of turns either side of the shaft an then go to the segment opposite our start point.
On a four pole it is more complicated. again start at one segment and Finnish at the opposite segment but now we have to incorporate four coils. It would be easier if I had a pic of you rotor and the number of slots etc so that I could work out the configuration for you.
You will need one empty segment between each live segment.
Did you look up Steve Jones?
So far there has been no objections to you joining our private group. Steve asked me for your email address so that he can give you access to the group, alternatively you can email him on
http://www.physics.byu.edu/feedback.aspx?personID=36Quote from: hiwaterMy motor is a 2 pole, but can be made to a 4 pole, that would be 2 for motor- 2 for gen. The feild pole shoes are 2.75 inches. They cover 5 srmature slots with about 1/8 inch overlap on each side.
Question. If its a 2 pole will there be windings on the armature to charge the gen feild coil windings during the charge cycle. Iv tried with 4 feild coils in last winter, but didnt get much out of them. But i didnt know as much then as I do now. Iv got one all set up with 4 brushes and 4 feild coils in but havent tried it yet been working on the others so I can transfer my knowledge to that set up when comes time,
With your guidance ill give it a try. I dont know how to get you a picture. ill talk to my daughter shes up ao that stuff. No havent taiked to Steve Yet.
Slot number is 14- comm bars 28. got to run phone ringing off the wall
14 is not divisible by 4 so we would not have an ideal setup for 4 pole, best do a 2 pole first. The advantage to 2 pole is no slots in the case will be required. The 2 pole setup has quite a few problems too, the first of which is the poles are too wide in my opinion. I will spend a little time thinking about how to improve my first rotor and get back to you on how to wind it.
Quote from: hiwaterGot really busy here today. didnt get time to do any winding. I forgot to ask if the other end of the wire is (from the start position) cut off and then soldered to the commutator bar. So on the next comm bar we start with a new wire instead of all one wire length. Hope that explains what i mneed to know. Thanks hiwater.
Yes, that is how you do it but you miss a commutator segment before winding the next coil. I am pondering whether it will be worth narrowing your rotor fields to improve the performance as wide fields will require a very high speed to get significant generation. More coils and narrow fields is my gut feeling on this.
Michael, the best email to reach me at would be
EMdevice12@yahoo.com
Thanks!
Steve
Thanks I will pass on the email to him.
Quote from: hiwaterI can narrow up those feild pole shoes To any amount that we need. the problem is that we might need to wind another feild coil to fit what we need in the space. The motor coil that I have in their now is one from a 12 volt delco starter. Just one , because it will motorise on just one, with a regular feild coil for the charge coil. The funny thing is off the armature on one half i get about 10 volts and on the other side I get close to 15 volts dc. The feild pole in tha configuration only takes up 3 armature slots. The bigger the motor feild coil the more amperage it takes to motorise. That is the ribbon type copper coil not magnet wire.
That is interesting, these are the type of tests we need to do. How much load do you have when you get these voltages, ie how many amps draw? Are these coils at 90 degrees to the power coil or 180?
I'm certainly not expert regarding Lockridge devices, but I wonder if it would be possible to achieve ou results with smaller motors/generators (in this case). The advantage would be lower cost to get to a working model and test (I think).
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2012.03.29, 15:16:56
I'm certainly not expert regarding Lockridge devices, but I wonder if it would be possible to achieve ou results with smaller motors/generators (in this case). The advantage would be lower cost to get to a working model and test (I think).
It may be, At the moment I just need to get some results so that I can work out what things have the effects I want.
The device really is very simple but we need to make sure that the generation is occurring at the same time as the motoring and transformer action. This will mean that the generator coils are unlikely to be at 180 or 90 degrees to the motor stator coils. We will also need to get enough sweep of the rotor magnetism over the generator coil, so I expect that the generator coils will be narrower than the motor coils.
Delco Remy starter generators that have been used on tractors seem to be a good candidate and can be found second hand for less than 100USD. I think this is what Hiwater has several of.
http://motors.shop.ebay.com/Parts-Accessories-/6028/i.html?_trkparms=65%253A12%257C39%253A1%257C72%253A6208&rt=nc&_nkw=delco+remy+starter+generator&_sticky=1&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_sop=3&_sc=1
Quote from: hiwaterThe charge feild coil is only one coil. Its is 180 from the motor coil. The other generator feild coils are at 90 to the motor coils, but I havent run that one yet. First tests were with no load. So i put a heater motor in the circuit. Across the battery alone .42-.43 amps. Off the generator auxillary brush .3o-.42. gen does slow down abit. with the heater motor on the charge coil the pos voltage to the generator inout drops down .10 amp on the input draw. heater motor draws .16 amps to run.
This motor I can move all 3 brushes. Seems like the negative brush cant be moved too much off its original position, but the positive brush can be moved quite a little before it affects motor rpm. voltage is effected on the auxillary brush usually drops. i did have a position once i got 45-50 volts ac off it. bit cant get it back. Will keep trying. The drag on the 3rd brush does slow the motor down some. this brush is standard width. So am going to narrow it up.
From testing I can get some acceleration with 12volt bulbsoff the feild coils, but from right off the armature there is a slow down, so theres 2 areas that have to be worked on.
Ill contact steve. Thanks.
Quote from: hiwaterYes its a heater blower motor. I wanted to see what the draw on the generator would do It actually went down by .10 th of an amp. The heater motor connected across the battery only draws .16 of an amp. Gen does slow down some depending on where you connect to.
If I put another coil in series about equal to the windings on the heater armature the generator rpm doesnt drop very much. So I learned that all the windingd should be equal to get the best voltage transfer.
One other thing i learned to day is that the auxillary brush has to be wider than one segment to pick uo more voltage also the right pressure against the armature. Other wise your voltage is lower. The motor run brushes are narrowed down to one slot each.
No I dont have skype.
I wasn't expecting a drop in current so that is very interesting, I need to think about that. As long as the load impedance is high we wont see a big drop in rpms but if you load your blower motor you will see the revs drop. The equal windings suggest that we may need impedance matching hence the trifilar coil.
A wider collector brush is the same as having a narrower generator coil as I suggested before. It may also be the case that wider generator coils can compensate to some extent for poor geometry but we will loose efficiency in the long run.
Quote from: hiwaterHow are you comimg on your armature, did you find brushes so you could try it out. Last winter i ground out every other comm slot on a stock generator armature and filled in withe JB weld . Then sanded it off evenly to match the other sections. It turned but not too fast lots of arcing at the brushes. So I think that maybe we need more commutator sections under the positive brush to get the speed we need. Probably only need one or two section on the commutator to pulse the armature. What are your thoughts. Thanks hiwater.
I am not in a position to do much at the moment, living on a third world wage does not help, although I do look at it every day and I am working out the next steps to improve it. Once we have this thing running we can play with the geometry.
We need double the number of commutator segments so that we have one blank one between every coil, remember that the armature has to be wave wound or it won't work. The recovery brushes will all but eliminate the arcing.
Quote from: hiwaterThis time of the year, I uaually get pretty busy with other things. I did get a chance to work on the lockridge a little one rainy day.
I wonder if the armature should be wound with a motor run winding, just enough wire so it dont over heat and the rest of the winding with a finer wire to get the voltage up. Im still getting 30 volts off the positive side of the armature and about 10 volts on the opposite side of the armature. thats why i was thinking of more wire on the gen side of the armature to get the voltage up.
Trying to figure out how to keep the n and s pole seperated to remove lenz law. So we have all acceleration and make that work for us.
No i havent joined the group, never got an email back from Steve. I never got a notification that mine never went through. So maybe he forgot about it. Yes I would like to join the group. Just have to know how to get in to the site. Thanks hiwater.
The armature is used for motoring and as the exciter for the generator, the actual generation is done in the field coils. Don't worry about lenz, we have enough to overcome it but maybe we could introduce something when we have it running.
We will need to get the right amount of wire on on the generating field coils. I am only guessing here but this is what I think, the voltage of the motor is shared across two field coils and the armature, the generated voltage is only across the field coils. this will mean we will have to increase the number of turns on the field coils by in excess of 30%.
There will be a difference between the voltage generated by the transformer action and the generator which may cause some other interaction but we don't know until it is tested.
Try sending steve another message on EMdevice12@yahoo.com
Quote from: hiwaterIt snowed last night. So it looks like a shop day . The temp is 28 degrees. Ill keep in mind what we have discussed on the armature. Been holding off rewinding the armature. Never done that before. so guess its time to get my feet wet. Done a lot of other things to those generators. im running out of parts to use. so will have to get some more cores to work with.
My email address is ( curtisr@gvtel.com ) Thanks hiwater.
Before you rewind we need to work out the most likely configuration, that is how narrow to make the armature poles, although it may be just a simple 4 pole wave wind.
Welcome on board Hiwater
Before I go any further I want to draw your attention to something. I strongly believe Tesla had an overunity motor generator, it is shown in some of his patents although I have never seen his actual patent even if it does exist. This is the device in the center of the image http://tesla.hamradioindia.com/assets/radio.gif
It could be that it is a DC to AC converter although both the slip rings and the commutator are both shown to be outputs.
There has been a device patented in 1975 which is probably the same device http://www.rexresearch.com/alxandr/3913004.pdf
If you read this patent carefully it does give exactly how I believe the Lockridge device works even though the lockridge does not have magnets and generates in two of the field coils.
This patent was handed to me during a discussion with another researcher who has been banned from some other forums and after I described to him how the Lockridge must work.
If you want to purchase one of these devices I have seen them on ebay http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=dynamotor I wish I could afford one.
When tested, people have said that it is not overunity, but I believe I know why. These devices have too high an output voltage and the winding resistance is too high. There may be a change in geometry too but I cannot tell until I get my hands on one. You can be sure that the manufacturers of these devices either did not know how to make them overunity or deliberately manufactured them so that they would not be overunity.
Now back to the lockridge device. Back in the days of WWII these devices were not available so whoever invented the lockridge device took a Bosch dynamo with a wave wound rotor and cut every other winding on the rotor. he then adjusted the brushes so that the motor pulsed using only two brushes mounted close but not exactly 180 degrees apart. The other two brushes were then mounted so that they made contact just as the power brushes disconnected from the segments. This way we recover the reactive power in the pulse. the motor field windings are mounted at 180 degrees apart in the appropriate motoring position. The generator field windings will not be set at 90 degrees to the motor field windings but at an angle that would give the highest generation effect. Unless someone knows what the difference between the best motoring position and best generating position is, we will have to find out by experiment. These generator windings will have to be of sufficient turns so as to give sufficient voltage under load to run the motor. The slots in the case are to separate the poles of the magnetic circuit so that the transformer effect is not cancelled.
Now read everything I have given you very carefully, including the patent and lets get this thing built. What you do not understand, please ask me about, even though I am not in a position to do it myself at this time I will do my best to ensure you succeed.
PS if anyone knows where I can get a job in the hydraulics field I would appreciate it.
Broke and living in the Philippines
Mike.
Boy , Lots to digest in your last post. I have looked at the alexander patent too, before. I found one already made to order. But spendy. There manufactured by Fabco Power. They have brushes and slip rings. Input is 12 volta and output is 12o volts ac. They do have feild coils , I have received e-mails from terry Indicating that.
The dynamotors I do have . Two smaller ones and 3 others. Three of then have the end open so I can see in. These are commutators on each end. The other two I will open up tomorrow to see what they have inside. I believe your right about the resistance too high. one of them I have is 570 volts out put. i was going to try them on my water fuel cell, but havent yet. They are some nice little gems anyhow. They are built very well.
Ill go through the info that you posted a few more times to get the picture of what you are telling me. Question ( reactive power) is this considered Ac then. My fuel cell is set up that way. I have .24 amp in to the alternator With about 30-40 volts out. But I have 9-10 amps recirculating through the cell. just keep going round and round in a circle, through the capacitors chokes and cell. Nothing get hot, just kind of luke warm. Just trying to make a comparison.
I can put slots in the case to be able to move the generator windings to the best place. Next logical step is to tackle the armature. Will let you know when Im ready . Helping move my parents for the next few days and clean up the old place. thanks for the good post.
Welcome Hiwater! (As was discussed a while back; recommended strongly by mbrownn.)
Quote from: Hiwater on 2012.04.19, 03:53:36
Boy , Lots to digest in your last post. I have looked at the alexander patent too, before. I found one already made to order. But spendy. There manufactured by Fabco Power. They have brushes and slip rings. Input is 12 volta and output is 12o volts ac. [snip]
I can put slots in the case to be able to move the generator windings to the best place. Next logical step is to tackle the armature. Will let you know when Im ready . Helping move my parents for the next few days and clean up the old place. thanks for the good post.
I'm interested in this Fabco device you mention -- is the output Frequency adjustable? or, if fixed, how is it fixed? link?
I understand about "cleaning up the old place"== that's basically what I'm doing out here in Mo this week; helping clean up an old place. I look forward to getting back to my home lab in just under a week!
Quote from: Hiwater on 2012.04.19, 03:53:36
Boy , Lots to digest in your last post. I have looked at the alexander patent too, before. I found one already made to order. But spendy. There manufactured by Fabco Power. They have brushes and slip rings. Input is 12 volta and output is 12o volts ac. They do have feild coils , I have received e-mails from terry Indicating that.
The dynamotors I do have . Two smaller ones and 3 others. Three of then have the end open so I can see in. These are commutators on each end. The other two I will open up tomorrow to see what they have inside. I believe your right about the resistance too high. one of them I have is 570 volts out put. i was going to try them on my water fuel cell, but havent yet. They are some nice little gems anyhow. They are built very well.
Ill go through the info that you posted a few more times to get the picture of what you are telling me. Question ( reactive power) is this considered Ac then. My fuel cell is set up that way. I have .24 amp in to the alternator With about 30-40 volts out. But I have 9-10 amps recirculating through the cell. just keep going round and round in a circle, through the capacitors chokes and cell. Nothing get hot, just kind of luke warm. Just trying to make a comparison.
I can put slots in the case to be able to move the generator windings to the best place. Next logical step is to tackle the armature. Will let you know when Im ready . Helping move my parents for the next few days and clean up the old place. thanks for the good post.
Yes I am spilling the beans a bit because I want to get this info out. There may be one or two things that need to be sorted but I know all the basics of it and between us we can get this thing running and iron out the problems as we find them.
There are a few Dynamotors out there from different manufacturers and as I have only seen them on the internet, I cannot be precise about what to do with them other than they seem to have too high an output voltage when compared to the input, this will mean higher resistance. When you look at the size of the device this also tells you that the coils must be wound with fine wire to get the voltage using such small coils again suggesting a high resistance. My experiments and computer simulations tell me the resistance must be low so a complete rewind may be required with these devices.
If the device has two commutators as opposed to a commutator and a pair of slip rings it will be much closer to the Lockridge in its operation. It has been suggested to me that the Lockridge had an armature from a dynamotor, I do not know if this was the case or even if dynamotors were available in the 40s. I am assuming they were not.
On the reactive power, the voltage is the difference between the high and the low reading, weather it is considered AC or pulsed DC depends upon your base voltage. For example if you put a triangular wave into a transformer with one of the wires grounded it is DC, If it has no ground then the signal is in effect AC. On the simulations I have been able to produce a DC waveform or AC waveform.
If you are selecting a Dynamotor with the intention of making it overunity you need to find one with very low resistance coils and to feed the output directly to the input you would need an output voltage of not much more than the input. Of course transformers could be used but then you are introducing another loss.
I will wait for your post on the armature, I will need the number of slots and the number of segments to work out your windings.
Mbrownn. I looked at those other dynamotors tonight. The have commutators in also. The high voltage end must have 50-75 commutator bars on and real narrow with real wide brushes. The 12 or 24 volt end has 12 bars on the one i counted. But the brushes take up two bar sections. There up to speed right now no lag in rpm. Not like a regular motor. There is only 2 feild coils in them and dont overlap much on the outside of the pole itself. I believe its like you say lots of turns with fine wire. What im going to find out is how they are motoring and generating at the same time. The armatures wire where they connect to the bars are all covered over all the way back to the armature slots, so cant see anything without ruining them. they ars just to play with for now.
I guess the best armature would be to use the stock GM armature. These are the ones I have been working with. Thay have 14 slots and 28 bar segments. Will probably have to have 2 motor run coils and two generator coils. I believe theres more speed and probably more voltage coming off the collapse with 2 coils. Some of these starter generators when I just cut the windings on every other segment, and soldered together i had a ball of fire off the bruhes close to the size of a dime. Those had wider commutator segments 4 wires on 1 bar.
So ther is a lot of voltage to be harvested comming back off that armature.
The 14 slots and 28 segments is what we want to work with on the armature. If you need anything else, let me know.
As a suspected the dynamotors will need a complete rewind and new slim brushes, probably better to perfect the process on a starter generator first as we have more room and the parts are bigger to work with. As we go through this you will work out what you need to do with the dynamotor although it does seem as though they were designed not to work in overunity.
14 slots s not ideal as it is not divisible by 4 poles but before we pull it all apart lets find out as much as we can about it. In engineering it is common to choose a prime number or two times a prime number for rotating devices as it reduces harmonic vibrations caused by imbalance but we would ideally need a number divisible by four.
Do you know of any places on the internet or PDFs with the details of your device, pictures would be good too?
Are all the windings the same or are there two motor windings and two generator windings?
What is the gap between the rotor and stator?
Next we need to measure the angle of the brushes when compared to the field and rotor windings.
The primary use of the inductive collapse is to aid the motor function but if i am right about the iron losses we should have improved motor function anyway when we have the device finished.
Any information about the efficiency would be a good guide as what to expect when we modify it but failing that the resistance of the original coils and the rotor stator gap will give us a clue.
I will be asking lots of questions at first but don't be put off because it is info that we need so that we can make it as efficient as we can.
Mbrownn, pm me with your e-mail address. I should be able to send you some links on the GM generator. Thanks hiwater.
Mike. BNR parts have vw generators on ebay. I have talked to them on ths phone .Very willing to answer questions. They did send me a picture of the old and newer vw armatures. But i cant find it. I did print it out to have on hand. The windings look pretty heavy. Also the slots are at an angle. The early style has a clamp ring around the slots on the armature opposite the commutator end. Just some info on those. still looking for more info on the GM gen to send you.
The stock generators only have two feild coils they are for charging, but they will motorise just the way they are. 2800-3200rpm depemnding on how good they are.
What i done was took 2 coils from a gm starter and put in place of these coils for motorising. So another 2 coils could be added if need be.
The armature gap is .081 of an inch. The brush angle is dead center on the feild coils and with the brushes 1/4 inch off center line on each side. brushes on the commutator are set 180 apart. As far as effeciency any where from .24 amps to .76 amps at stabilised speed.
If i remember start up amps were about 1.5 untill it gets up to speed.
How do you check the resistance of the coils . i have tried before but dont know how to read the multimeter. If I havent provided enough info keep after me untill i get right. curt.
I have looked at all the links you have emailed me, the problem is we do not know how the armature is wound. The truth is once they decided that lap windings were superior they could be put into almost every motor and generator without having to modify the rest of it. It is unlikely there are wave wound armatures except in special applications.
Ok, so the units you have are two pole, that will make things simpler because we do not have to split the case fields and makes rewinding the armature easier except we may not be able to narrow the poles on it.
The gap is big, so at some stage we will probably have to shim the field coils but as these are bolted on that isn't a big problem.
The brushes, if I understand you correctly, are offset from the field coils which means they have been optimized to some extent on position. This means that it operates only in one direction.
On starter generators they are not designed to motor and generate at the same time, it is either one or the other so we have to change that. This will probably mean we have to change the location of the generator field coil for optimum results.
The motor coils are designed to give a lot of power for a short time and cannot operate under full load for long periods but as we will be pulsing the coils our power will be reduced. the generator side is designed to be run continuously but at lower power than the motor. The duration of our pulse will have to be reduced to match the output of the generator but it may also be necessary to reduce the size of the wire on the motor field coil.
How many turns are there on the motor field coil? We need to know this because we will be putting the same number of turns on the armature coils. It is the size of the slots on the armature that limit the size of wire we can use and the resistance our coils will have. In our lockridge the motor and generator coils will have the same size wire with only a difference in the number of turns.
Measuring the resistance is difficult as the resistance is very low in starter motors, much too low to measure with cheap meters so we usually calculate the resistance based on the wire used.
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2012.04.19, 04:42:05
Welcome Hiwater! (As was discussed a while back; recommended strongly by mbrownn.)
I'm interested in this Fabco device you mention -- is the output Frequency adjustable? or, if fixed, how is it fixed? link?
I understand about "cleaning up the old place"== that's basically what I'm doing out here in Mo this week; helping clean up an old place. I look forward to getting back to my home lab in just under a week!
I don't know much about these devices other than they are built similarly to the patent but not exactly and that is the key part. For them to work in overunity they have to be wound in a particular way and that isn't in the patent and is only hinted at.
I guess that the frequency is based upon the speed
I looked for some armatures that are divisable by 4 today. No such luck. the smaller dc motors that have the right amount of slots have the same amount of commutator bars . like the scooter motor they were rewinding on the EF forum.
Did you get any of the info that I sent you.
This dynamotor is likely to be a Tesla design and may be overunity, it is a little more complex than I have seen before but it is the right age. Note how there appears to be heavy cable going from the slip rings to the commutator suggesting self running, note that universal type motors can run on AC as well as DC. it would be nice to investigate this device further. http://vimeo.com/6876178
This dynamotor would be a good candidate to convert to overunity using the Lockridge method. We would have to rewind it so that the high voltage side was the low voltage side with every other segment being blank. http://www.flickr.com/photos/angeljim46/6233423783/
Quote from: mbrownn on 2012.04.22, 03:48:20
I don't know much about these devices other than they are built similarly to the patent but not exactly and that is the key part. For them to work in overunity they have to be wound in a particular way and that isn't in the patent and is only hinted at.
I guess that the frequency is based upon the speed
Yes, but we don't know if these devices have modern armatures.
Those armatures are wound with 1 long series wire, except to where they make connections to the commutator bars. end result is one long wire.
Yes they are two pole units. The feild pole shoes cover 5 segments of the armature. I think thats what the armature winds cover too.
The brushes placement. I think you have that right. From what I can tell the brushes are in close to the best place. No arcing. Each one can be moved if need be. Yes only direction cw from the pulley end.
The starter generators are more efficient than the regular generator when motorising. most likely because of the heavier wire used for the feild coil, not much resistance and the wider commutator segments. If you look at the commutator segments on the starter generators you can see they are wide. there 14 segments on these so half of the stock gm generator. Where there a 28 segments. Withe 4 wires on the wider bars and only 2 wires on the narrow ones.
I have one of these i can run at .15-.17 amps If I load it with light bulbs it speed up and the load goes down a little and rpm increases. If i run a bucking coil on the ground side amp draw goes down to .07-.08 amps and rpm increases but the amps stay the same.
As far as the motor coils they are wound out of flat copper ribbon stock. There are 13 turns of 1/4 flat copper ribbon them. The motor coilscan be changed to meet the specs we need if we wind the armature first.
The starter generators all have that flat wire in them. Only other way to do it is to weigh the motor coil. The armature has 8 wraps of .059 wire size (16guage? ) across the armature. The stock gm gen has same size wire but only 7 wrap on the armature. I have some of that armature wirehere on a roll. dont know how much though. If need be i can get some more.
I wish i could get one of those generators to you somehow. The stock Gm generator coils weigh about 11 oz. The starter coil on the s-g weighs 13.8 oz. I have a few extrea starter coils off various starters that could be what we need. Some of these i have used before getting the input amp draw down.
The smaller picture of the dynamotor I have two of those. Have to take one apart to get a good close look at the armature. The armatures are all sealed up like the one with the heavy cables . That one was a nice picture.
Yes the single wire is the lap windings, this winding does not arc because the transients pass mostly around the armature.
A generator is, in general, built to finer tolerances than a starter motor and so will motor more efficiently. the heavy gauge field coil is so that it can motor with a huge amount of amps, producing huge torque.
We will need the 28 segment commutator so that we can have a blank segment between each live segment.
Lets do a test, we need to know a few things about how this will function and we can do the tests on an unmodified unit. I assume that it is wired like this (ignore the voltage regulator) http://www.wiringdiagrams21.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Delco-Remy-Generator-Wiring-Circuit_thumb.png Connect a low voltage AC to terminal A and the ground and measure the AC between terminal A and terminal F. Now repeat the test with a small load across terminal A and F. Compare the AC output with the input both with the motor stalled and the motor running so there are four tests in all. Scope readings would be best as transients may effect the readings when the motor is running.
Test one = Motor stalled and no load
Test two = motor stalled with load
Test three = motor running and no load
Test four = motor running with load
This will give us two base figures, the ratio of input to output in transformer mode when the motor is stalled and the ratio of input to output when the motor is running where we have motor, generating and transformer action. The second should be better than the first. Note that the test has to be done with AC or pulsed DC. As the motor will try to draw huge current when it is stalled we need to limit that current in some way, I would place a resistor between the battery and motor but whatever way you do it the conditions need to be the same on all four tests. I would suggest a 6v input or lower or whatever you need to make the motor run. In the stalled condition the voltage will drop off to almost nothing due to the very low resistance but it is the ratio we are looking for not the specific voltage.
Even if everything was perfect the motor would not self run on AC as there is a phase shift between the motor action and generator action causing it to stall. This is also true for pulsed DC, so a capacitor has to be used to store the output until it is needed.
We will deal more with the phase shift later.
Do you have access to a scope?
Quote from: Hiwater on 2012.04.23, 01:25:42
The starter generators all have that flat wire in them. Only other way to do it is to weigh the motor coil. The armature has 8 wraps of .059 wire size (16guage? ) across the armature. The stock gm gen has same size wire but only 7 wrap on the armature. I have some of that armature wirehere on a roll. dont know how much though. If need be i can get some more.
I wish i could get one of those generators to you somehow. The stock Gm generator coils weigh about 11 oz. The starter coil on the s-g weighs 13.8 oz. I have a few extrea starter coils off various starters that could be what we need. Some of these i have used before getting the input amp draw down.
The smaller picture of the dynamotor I have two of those. Have to take one apart to get a good close look at the armature. The armatures are all sealed up like the one with the heavy cables . That one was a nice picture.
I have noticed that often there is a difference between the armature and stator windings in a motor, as it can be either way I do not understand why. At this stage don't worry too much about what everything is as we will test things and adjust to find an optimum position. As I said in the last post, phase is important as we have to get the transformer and generating action in the optimum phase position and we will not know what that is until we test it.
That is great that you have two of those dynamotors, we might be able to learn something from them. If they are set up to take advantage of the transformer action there will be a phase shift set up in the armature. Take a look at the angle between the coils and the segments of the commutators, are they the same or is there a difference between the input and output?
We will get the input current down in two ways, Pulse width and motor speed once we have rewound the armature but for now we can test with the standard armature.
Quote from: mbrownn on 2012.04.23, 02:01:20
Yes the single wire is the lap windings, this winding does not arc because the transients pass mostly around the armature.
A generator is, in general, built to finer tolerances than a starter motor and so will motor more efficiently. the heavy gauge field coil is so that it can motor with a huge amount of amps, producing huge torque.
We will need the 28 segment commutator so that we can have a blank segment between each live segment.
Lets do a test, we need to know a few things about how this will function and we can do the tests on an unmodified unit. I assume that it is wired like this (ignore the voltage regulator) http://www.wiringdiagrams21.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Delco-Remy-Generator-Wiring-Circuit_thumb.png Connect a low voltage AC to terminal A and the ground and measure the AC between terminal A and terminal F. Now repeat the test with a small load across terminal A and F. Compare the AC output with the input both with the motor stalled and the motor running so there are four tests in all. Scope readings would be best as transients may effect the readings when the motor is running.
Test one = Motor stalled and no load
Test two = motor stalled with load
Test three = motor running and no load
Test four = motor running with load
This will give us two base figures, the ratio of input to output in transformer mode when the motor is stalled and the ratio of input to output when the motor is running where we have motor, generating and transformer action. The second should be better than the first. Note that the test has to be done with AC or pulsed DC. As the motor will try to draw huge current when it is stalled we need to limit that current in some way, I would place a resistor between the battery and motor but whatever way you do it the conditions need to be the same on all four tests. I would suggest a 6v input or lower or whatever you need to make the motor run. In the stalled condition the voltage will drop off to almost nothing due to the very low resistance but it is the ratio we are looking for not the specific voltage.
Even if everything was perfect the motor would not self run on AC as there is a phase shift between the motor action and generator action causing it to stall. This is also true for pulsed DC, so a capacitor has to be used to store the output until it is needed.
We will deal more with the phase shift later.
Do you have access to a scope?
OOPs I got this wrong, we are going to have to do a modification if it is wired like this before we test it. we need to put the input AC through the motor field coil and the armature in series.
Mbrownn. I did read the posts this am. Thought i was going to get some time to do some work on this today. But got busy with my regular work.
The picture you posted of the wiring diagram, I think is for the starter generator. Is that right. I went through my excess parts tonight trying to find enough parts to put one together. Most of what i have left are pretty much junk parts. If i cant find enough parts ill have to go to the scrap yard and get a few more generators.
yes i do have a scope. only used it a couple of times I think its a dual channel . Dont know much about reading them. I do have one set of wires for it..It was brand new 3 years ago. Where would you connect the leads.
Just to make sure which do you want me to check the starter generator or the regular generator. Some of the generators are wound different. The input to motorise comes in the feild terminal to the positive brush which branches off there to the first feild coil through that coil to the outside of the second feild coil to the armature terminal. The way I usually put them is i use the out side of the first feild coil for the feild terminal through the feild coil to the positive brush . there connects the outside of the of the second feild coil through that coil to the armature terminal. Drawing it out you can understand it better.
Just let me know how you want it connected. In the mean time Ill round up enough parts to do it the way we need to do it. So hang in there with me , may take a few days to get this done.
Quote from: Hiwater on 2012.04.24, 02:25:45
Mbrownn.
The picture you posted of the wiring diagram, I think is for the starter generator. Is that right. I went through my excess parts tonight trying to find enough parts to put one together. Most of what i have left are pretty much junk parts. If i cant find enough parts ill have to go to the scrap yard and get a few more generators.
This is the circuit (http://www.falstad.com/circuit/#%24+1+1.0E-6+5.459815003314424+40+5.0+50%0A178+560+432+592+432+0+2+2.0E-9+-5.53E-322+0.05+100000.0+0.02+20.0%0Av+560+464+560+480+0+2+600.0+5.0+5.0+0.0+0.5%0AT+704+384+752+416+0+0.01+1.0+3.768138727056976+3.7681387270569733+0.35%0Ar+704+416+704+432+0+0.1%0Ar+752+416+752+432+0+0.1%0A178+800+432+848+432+0+2+2.0E-9+-5.53E-322+0.05+100000.0+0.02+20.0%0Aw+560+480+800+480+0%0Aw+560+464+800+464+0%0Av+704+448+704+432+0+0+40.0+4.0+0.0+0.0+0.5%0Av+752+448+752+432+0+0+40.0+4.0+0.0+0.0+0.5%0Aw+800+384+752+384+0%0Aw+704+448+656+448+0%0Aw+656+448+656+432+0%0Aw+656+432+560+432+0%0Aw+752+448+800+448+0%0Aw+800+448+800+432+0%0AT+704+512+752+544+0+0.0050+2.75+7.5362774541147965+-4.068900567303419+0.35%0Aw+512+512+672+512+0%0Aw+928+304+560+304+0%0Aw+512+304+512+416+0%0Aw+864+352+864+400+0%0Aw+864+352+416+352+0%0Aw+704+384+560+384+0%0Ar+672+512+704+512+0+0.13%0Ar+752+512+800+512+0+0.357%0Av+672+544+704+544+0+0+40.0+8.0+0.0+0.0+0.5%0Av+800+544+752+544+0+0+40.0+33.0+0.0+0.0+0.5%0Aw+800+512+1008+512+0%0Aw+1008+224+320+224+0%0Aw+800+592+320+592+0%0Aw+320+592+320+416+0%0Ar+272+416+320+416+0+100.0%0Ad+272+368+320+368+1+0.805904783%0Av+208+416+208+368+0+0+40.0+14.4+0.0+0.0+0.5%0As+320+224+320+368+0+0+false%0Ad+928+448+928+304+1+0.805904783%0Aw+848+448+848+464+0%0Aw+848+448+928+448+0%0Aw+848+400+864+400+0%0Aw+704+384+704+368+0%0Aw+704+368+752+368+0%0Aw+752+368+752+384+0%0Aw+752+448+704+448+0%0Aw+384+368+592+368+0%0Aw+592+416+512+416+0%0Aw+512+416+512+512+0%0Ad+416+416+416+352+1+0.805904783%0As+208+416+272+416+0+1+false%0As+208+368+272+368+0+1+false%0Aw+1008+512+1008+224+0%0Aw+672+544+416+544+0%0Aw+416+544+416+416+0%0Ac+320+368+320+416+0+5.0E-4+31.07726511418358%0A181+176+512+176+272+0+300.0000000005227+15.0+30.0+0.0040+0.0040%0As+176+272+320+368+0+1+false%0Aw+176+512+320+416+0%0Aw+800+544+800+592+0%0AT+384+144+416+160+0+0.0010+1.0+-0.0013788238549987675+0.0+0.999%0Aw+336+368+336+144+0%0Aw+336+144+384+144+0%0Aw+384+176+384+368+0%0Aw+336+368+320+368+0%0Aw+416+176+448+176+0%0AT+480+144+512+176+0+0.0010+1.0+0.0+0.0037275688124380757+0.999%0Aw+512+304+512+176+0%0Aw+512+144+560+144+0%0Aw+560+144+560+304+0%0Aw+448+176+480+176+0%0Ad+416+80+448+48+1+0.805904783%0Ad+480+80+448+48+1+0.805904783%0Ad+448+112+416+80+1+0.805904783%0Ad+448+112+480+80+1+0.805904783%0Aw+416+80+416+144+0%0Aw+480+144+480+80+0%0Aw+448+112+1104+112+0%0Aw+1104+112+1104+624+0%0Aw+1104+624+320+624+0%0Aw+320+624+320+592+0%0Aw+448+48+320+48+0%0Aw+320+48+320+224+0%0Aw+320+416+416+416+0%0As+336+368+384+368+0+0+false%0As+512+304+560+304+0+0+false%0Ao+43+64+0+33+28.63890391847496+18.32889850782398+0+-1%0Ao+10+64+0+289+8.749002899132048+11.198723710889022+1+-1%0Ao+26+64+1+291+261.87124863169134+9.765625000000001E-155+2+-1%0Ao+26+64+0+289+18.707220957835556+5.986310706507378+2+-1%0Ao+33+64+1+291+5.83992399055641E-5+9.765625000000001E-205+3+-1%0Ao+17+64+0+289+0.9175488853876983+9.395700586370031+4+-1%0Ao+49+64+0+35+149.65776766268445+5.986310706507378+4+-1%0Ao+51+64+0+35+74.82888383134222+11.972621413014757+4+-1%0Ao+52+64+0+291+74.82888383134222+11.972621413014757+5+-1%0Ao+52+64+1+291+320.0+9.765625E-5+5+-1%0Ao+53+64+1+35+7.62939453125E-5+9.765625E-5+6+-1%0Ao+24+64+1+35+10.0+9.765625E-5+7+-1%0Ao+23+64+1+35+10.0+9.765625E-5+7+-1%0Ao+3+64+1+35+2.5+9.765625E-5+7+-1%0Ao+4+64+1+35+2.5+9.765625E-5+7+-1%0A) we will be using but concentrate on the motor part for now.
Quote from: Hiwater on 2012.04.24, 02:25:45yes i do have a scope. only used it a couple of times I think its a dual channel . Dont know much about reading them. I do have one set of wires for it..It was brand new 3 years ago. Where would you connect the leads.
Just think of your scope as a visual volt meter just compare the input and output. I will lead you through it when you post the pics.
Quote from: Hiwater on 2012.04.24, 02:25:45Just to make sure which do you want me to check the starter generator or the regular generator. Some of the generators are wound different. The input to motorise comes in the feild terminal to the positive brush which branches off there to the first feild coil through that coil to the outside of the second feild coil to the armature terminal. The way I usually put them is i use the out side of the first feild coil for the feild terminal through the feild coil to the positive brush . there connects the outside of the of the second feild coil through that coil to the armature terminal. Drawing it out you can understand it better..
If you could check both it would be great but we need the armature with 28 segments
Quote from: Hiwater on 2012.04.24, 02:25:45Just let me know how you want it connected. In the mean time Ill round up enough parts to do it the way we need to do it. So hang in there with me , may take a few days to get this done.
Wire the field coil you want as the motor coil in series with the armature then measure the tests. what I am looking for is efficiency primarily. the scope shot may give me some info regarding the relocation of the generator field coil.
Now you have the circuit its just a matter of geometry and efficiency before we rewind the armature
Thanks for the email. we need to disconnect the secondary field coil from the brush. Connect terminal F and the ground to a low voltage AC source, say 6volts. then the two terminals of the other field coil are the output.
Carry out the tests and if you can post a scope shot of the output it will help a lot
The scope shot will show us a generation ripple, the shape of this will indicate the best location of the generator field coil. The difference in voltage between the input and output gives us an indication of the ratio of windings we need and the efficiency.
Doing the test with the motor stalled will show us how effective the transformer action is, proving motors do indeed have a transformer action.
The ripple on the generated voltage should consist of this transformer action and the ripple of the generation with transients when the segments if the commutator leave the brushes. what we also need to look for is if there is any addition of these signals. If there is, it proves that we are on the right track.
To prove we have an addition we need to run the motor on DC and examine the signal. If the ripple on AC is 7/10ths of the DC signal we have little or no addition if it is greater than that we do undead have an addition. remember this is only a test and the lockridge does not run on DC or AC, it runs on pulsed DC. This test will also tell us if it is possible to run the device on a pulse width modulator with no modification to the armature, wouldn't that be a shocker hehe, I doubt it will be as effective without the modifications to the armature though.
Still looking for some more generator parts. was to 4 scrap yards today. There just isnt much for spare parts or whole units out there any more. I did find 2 generators that i can make one stock one out of.
I put in a call to a core buyer today. So i may have an inside place to get them. Im supposed to call him back in the am.
So hope that works out. Says he has got quite a few of them.
scrap yards are a great place to source parts but the price here is 80% of new, can you believe that?
I did manage to get some good cores from my friend the core buyer today. Two starter generators and seven regular GM generators.
So hopefully I can check them tommorrow and make one all stock to start running checks on one of them.
I did find out that his dad was a vw enthusiast for many years and still has a lot of the old 50-60s vw parts still in the garage.
He is going to check to see if there any generators like what we are looking for. Would be nice to take one apart to see how the armature is wound on one of those older ones. Will have to wait to see when he calls.
I suspect that the armature used by Lockridge was already an obsolete model as this type of armature would be heavy on brushes.
I am starting to work out the geometry of the device now and it could be simpler that I at first thought, but we wont know until we are testing. To make this device with a universal motor would require two short stators on a long rotor but with a four pole device we will need the spits in the case as we have two magnetic circuits. I don't know how bad the interference will be as it is complex as far as the transformer effects are concerned.
Let me know as soon as you have a unit ready to test and then the experiments can start.
I should be able to start testing this coming week. Went out there today to start but wasnt in the spirit. Too many distractions.
Hopefully things will subside so I can get focused on this project again. Usually in between times Im supposed to learn something relative to what Im working on and where this will eventually lead us to. Knowing the end from the beginning. Thanks for your PATIENCE.
In a universal motor we have two field coils and there are many interactions between them. The first interaction is a transformer action but to undrstand this we have to know the orientation of the winding. So let us imagine that we take our first field coil and wind it clockwise, then rotate the stator 180 degrees and wind that clockwise. Now if we rin an AC current through the first winding we will be able to see an AC current across the second winding because of the transformer action. I suspect that this output AC will be the reverse polarity with the input.
This we need to test.
Assuming that this is the case of course the same will happen with pulsed DC.
If it is reverse polarity with the supply and our input is Pulsed DC this is a good thing as far as a Lockridge is concerned as the current will flow in the opposite direction to the input of the first coil. This is important because this is the same direction as the EMF or generated current in the second coil.
The question is, Do these two voltages add together or does it just increase the available current or does the current cancel each other out?
Now we have to take into consideration the action of the armature coil. The armature coul and the motoring field coil are half bucking and half attracting. What effect does this have on the second field coil?
When we load the second field coil, what effect does it have on the motoring action and what effect does it have on the transformer action and generator action?
Hopefully we can get some answers in the first four tests I posted earlier.
If the current in the second field coil is not in the reverse direction, this meens we have to change the geometry and we can do this by placing our generating coil on top of our motoring coil on the same shoe.
Obviously we will need more turns on our generating coil than the motoring coil to make up for the normal losses in transformers and generators. How much this will need to be will also indicated by our first tests.
The place to put the scope probes is across the motor field coil and across the 2nd field coil. please take note of any phase shift.
Wow I stirred some interest up on the energetic forum.
Quote from: Farmhand
mbrownn, is this like the workings of the universal motor you have ?
Because it looks like the motor from my old vacuum cleaner. I've got one of those, I
wasn't sure exactly how to use it but. How is it wired up to run from AC wall power ? And from DC ?
Electric motor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I won't be able to experiment for a couple of weeks but I can plan stuff and research.
I was thinking that if a rotating magnetic field is used for the generator it might be best excited by a sine wave.
Could it be possible a lockridge type device would have the exciter as part of
the generator ? Imagine the Tesla generator with the exciter shaft connected
to the armature shaft, but that won't work because the armature needs to
rotate at a different rate. So maybe a different number of poles in the exciter
than is in the generator or something. So if the armature is spun at say 10
revolutions a second and the exciter was also turned at 10 revolutions a
second but produced 20 cycles of excitation, the rotating magnetic poles in
the field ring would be rotating twice as fast as the armature always. What do
you think ?
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/8277-lockridge-triflar-coil-2.html#post190707
Thanks, I really appreciate this, I will spend some time digesting it and see what I can make of it.
Yes that motor is similar to what I am working on and has a commutator of twice the number of segments as what the rotor has slots which is what you want. If the number of slots on the rotor is dividable by four then it is perfect.
It is possible that the lockridge had an exciter but I don't think so myself
These are the key points
1 The motor pulses and we get a gain through inductive kickback
2 we have a transformer action in almost equal magnitude to the pulse
3 We have a generator function
4 the generator function is in the same direction as the transformer function
5 three outputs for 1 input
6 only one set of iron and friction losses
It is the geometry that is one of the things I am working on now to try and make this a reality. It may have to be a split field stator but I am not sure yet.
Have you heard of a dynamotor? the ones you can buy are not built correctly and so perform with an overall loss. read the patent US 3913004 it describes the action of the Lockridge device but is built differently Its all in the geometry which is not in the patent.
Quote from: Farmhand
Yes well that is why I'm building the Tesla generator. With the setup you
describe what would power the rotation of the armature? I think if you allow
the field in the field coils to collapse the armature coils won't generate or the
armature will slow.
Testing it would tell, simulator probably wouldn't deal well with that.
Also if the transformer action is used from a multifilar coil the flux will be less
and the input will increase in line with what is drawn transformer style
because of the drop in flux allowing primary current flow to increase, therefore
when the field collapses there will be less joules to collect as well because of
less flux, that's to my way of thinking anyway. I could well be wrong I'm just
using logic I don't have the figures and formula's to back that up.
Cheers
the trick here is the speed, with a 50% duty cycle on the pulse the second half is the inductive kickback with the voltage returning to zero, the transformer does the same and also the generator. Its a balancing act. Once our load goes too high the motor will stop but our bigger problem is too low a load as the motor may race into self destruct mode.
As the output voltage and current will be higher than the input due to having more turns, the motor would continue to accelerate until it exploded or melted if not controlled.
I suspect the transformer coil is at 90 degrees or so to the field coil but on the same stator section. If the transformer action opposes the generator action we will need the generator on a separate magnetic circuit, hence the split in the case of the lockridge. It may be that this transformer action is then fed to the generator circuit via another coil in the generating half reversing the polarity if required, hence 4 coils and the motor appearing to be a conventional four pole.
The rotor is the old fashioned wave wound with every other segment on the commutator being blank.
The motor is not compensated so inductance will be high at low speed, as speed and as the load goes up the inductance should lower due to the transformer effect just like a compensation coil.
This is all theory too, we will be testing soon on a standard motor/generator and using the results to work out the next step. Once we have the thing how we want we can then rewind the rotor.
I will post results on the lockridge thread when we have them.
Keep asking those questions it helps me work out what I have to do
Quote from: Farmhand
Yeah that's an exciter/motor/generator all working from a battery. Pretty much
what I want to build. Here's the kicker though. Power is not energy or work.
If we read in the patent you linked, column 5 line 25, quote "thus, the output
voltage potential is kept to a maximum while the current is drawn as required,
within the capacity of the unit design".
If it said method of increasing energy then it would be more interesting.
Cheers
I don't think I answered clearly last night as I was tired.
We have a rotor similar to what peter had us build on the lockridge thread with a blank segment on the commutator between each live one. The power brushes set up so we have a 50% duty cycle pulse. recovery brushes are placed as required. the field and rotor are wired in series but it is not compensated in the normal way with the opposite field coil. As the speed increases we will reach a point where the reactive time is the same as the input time. at this point we have a triangle wave on our generator winding and a triangle wave on our transformer coil. Our output will be continuous but of varying magnitude and possibly polarity. I hope this explains about how the motoring works as it is very simple. It is 50% duty cycle with recovery of the inductive kickback.
The output of the generator is proportional to the power flowing in the armature but the power in the field coil has to be varying so we have a transformer effect.
I understand what you are saying about the flux but by placing the secondary winding of the transformer at 90 degrees we may mitigate some of the flux problems but we need to test this.
As the power coil and transformer coil are separate hopefully any increased draw of current from the transformer will increase or at least maintain the torque.
I hate the legalese of patents, why don't they use plain English. This patent is a different machine to the lockridge and its gains are:-
1) efficiency, ie that there is only one set of iron and friction losses for three functions
2) A transformer action and motoring action at the same time from the same input.
3) and most people miss this, inductive kickback
The principal gain of number three is x2 and the gain of number two is x2 so we have 2x2=4. In the wording he is indicating we have a x3 output or 75% efficiency. I calculated that we would have a x2.7 output which isn't that far out. He is saying increasing energy in lines 20 to 25 on column 4.
Got everything set up to do some testing today. Hopefully all goes well and I dont get too many interuptions.
I await your results
OK these are my findings: this is with the secondary coil disconnected from the positive brush and wire brought out so there 2 loose ends from the secondary.
I first run the motor just the way it was without any ac connected. The voltage off the secondary coil was 3.1 volts dc.
With 6.4 volts ac to the positive brush i wire and the other to ground
Test 1------motor stalled no load on secondary, voltage climbed up to 18 volts ac. ( time about 3-4 seconds)
voltage on the input to pos brush dropped to 1.0 volts
Test 2-----motor stalled. 12 volt bulb connected across the secondary . 0 volts on volt meter. input dropped to 4.5 volts then to 1.3 volts.
Test 3---Motor running no load on secondary. Voltage 15 volts across the sec. Input drops to 1.0volts to .9 volts.
Test 4-- Motor running with load across sec 12 volt light bulb. volt meter 0 volts and input drops to 1.0 volts.
That 6.4 volts on the brush puts quite a load on the generator when motorising. I did have the ac going to the input wire on the motor coil but it would feed back in to the variac. i burned up on . It smoked up 3 times before it finally quit.
I did do the test as you described in your post no. 57 . I see i made a mistake in connecting the ac and the voltmeter connection.
I will redo them in the am and post them. I never connected the scope up today. Will try tomorrow.
Going to reread your instruction in your post 57. I wonder if the output volt meter should be connected to the out put on the sec and ground. i was connecting it across the a and f terminals. Like you said. may be i did them right.
Need some clarification.
Take note
Are the number of turns on the motor coil and the generator coil the same? this is so we can calculate the ratio of turns required for the machine. If they are the same it is easier.
Measure the voltage across the motor field coil and compare with the voltage on the generator field coil in both the loaded and unloaded conditions.
Write it down as we may need to refer to these later.
Quote from: Hiwater on 2012.05.02, 02:54:14
I did do the test as you described in your post no. 57 . I see i made a mistake in connecting the ac and the voltmeter connection.
I will redo them in the am and post them. I never connected the scope up today. Will try tomorrow.
Going to reread your instruction in your post 57. I wonder if the output volt meter should be connected to the out put on the sec and ground. i was connecting it across the a and f terminals. Like you said. may be i did them right.
Need some clarification.
Did some tests on the stock Gm generator today. They will motorise pretty good the way they are. But if I connect like the starter generator theres too much resistance in the motor coil for it to rotate,just verily turns if i put power in the the free end of the coil. If i put power in on the brush where the other end of the motor coil connectds too spins up to speed. But if i connect both coils to the pos brush it would be like a center tap.Motorising on the residual magnetisim , then we woul have two charge coils to pull voltage off from. WHAT DO YOU THINK.
There 13 turns of copper ribbon the sta-gen. the stock one i checked were the same coils.
continuation of tests----voltage across motor coil locked 7.3-7.6 volts. motorised it was 11.7 volts. These tests are for the one i worked on yesterday. The sta-gen. With sec disconnected.------- The secondary ( gen coil) not loaded 3.3-3.4 volts ac. loaded with bulb was 0 volts.
Motor coil voltage, motor running across coil .1 volt--- from pos brush connection to gd--11.7 volts. Sec coil.--with out ac connected unloaded 3.9-4.o volts ac.--loaded 0 volts. with ac connected loaded 0volts. unloaded 15 volts ac.
locked across motor coil no ac .1volt. hope this is not too confusing to you cause it is to me. If you need clarification on something dont hesitate to ask me. everything ai all set up so i can go out and retes if need be. As i stated earlier i did the tests on the stock gen today all tests were 0 except for motor run no load which was 8 volts. dont seem to be much trafo action there.There was 4 volts ac across a-f terminals. Enough for today.
We are not getting the results I expected but that could be because it is drawing too much current with the standard motor coil of only 13 turns causing too much voltage drop.
The rise in voltage on the unloaded output coil can be expected,
I forgot that the coil will have capacitance and so it will charge up like a capacitor.
If I understand you correctly, when you use a generator coil as the motor field coil, the Motor will hardly turn, Is that correct? If so we need to increase the voltage applied a little so that we have at least a few hundred RPM.
I will be more specific in the description of the tests so there is less confusion. Let us set up the motor so that it has two field coils that are 180 degrees apart and make both coils the same number of turns. You could use two generator field coils for this.
Remove the other field coils as they will interact confusing the readings. One field coil will be wired in series with the armature and we will call this the motor field coil. The other field coil will be the generator field coil. The generator field coil will have to be electrically disconnected from the case so that there is no conductivity between the input and output. Apply enough ac voltage so that the motor runs. We need to compare the transformer action so we need to have the voltage reading across the motor field coil and the voltage reading across the generator field coil for all four tests. If you could so a scope shot for each test that would be really helpful
Test one = Motor stalled and no load. Obviously we have the capacitance problem here so we will need to put a resistor across the generator coil to prevent it charging up but the resistance needs to be high enough to allow the voltage to be seen. I would guess that a few thousand ohms would be ok. Post your results like this
Test1 Motor field coil xxx Generator field coil xxx and then scope shots and so on for the rest of the tests.
Test two = motor stalled with load
Test three = motor running and no load. again use the resistor
Test four = motor running with load
I know all this sounds like a pain in the butt, trust me it will teach us a lot.
Quote from: Hiwater on 2012.05.02, 20:07:51
Did some tests on the stock Gm generator today. They will motorise pretty good the way they are. But if I connect like the starter generator theres too much resistance in the motor coil for it to rotate,just verily turns if i put power in the the free end of the coil. If i put power in on the brush where the other end of the motor coil connectds too spins up to speed. But if i connect both coils to the pos brush it would be like a center tap.Motorising on the residual magnetisim , then we woul have two charge coils to pull voltage off from. WHAT DO YOU THINK.
There are many ways to wire a universal motor but we need the pulsing action and the best way to do that is series winding but by all means experiment as you may find something.
Quote from: Hiwater on 2012.05.02, 20:07:51
if I connect like the starter generator theres too much resistance in the motor coil for it to rotate
In a standard universal motor the second field coil is a compensation coil that lowers the inductance of the motor. we will be using this coil as our generator coil so under load you should get more speed than without load.
A standard motor setup is conductive compensation, we will have some Inductive compensation in our setup. http://books.google.com.ph/books?id=RRbIRBUQk-sC&pg=PA622&lpg=PA622&dq=conductive+compensation&source=bl&ots=QTXAY-mSv8&sig=cYZVYwZN_vqESAHGThi_FvttybM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=I-qhT-r2GYmQiAfC96HdCA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=conductive%20compensation&f=false
I got just a couple of minutes here, then back to work. Yes. in the stock generator using just one coil for the motor coil will verily rotate . very slow. I wii read the rest of your post this evening and print it out. The coil with the 13 turns is for the starter-generator not the stock generator.
These motors will rotat with out any feild coils in them at all with just the pole shoes residual magnetisim and the feild of the rotor.
Maybe dont need a motor coil to motorise except for the collapsing feild. Be back when I can.
That is interesting, I wondered about that and why the solid shoes and not laminated ones. It could be that this will play a roll in the overall workings of the device.
I know of a few possible circuits that the device could be, now I am trying to configure the geometry to make it happen but there are so many things involved so I still have a lot to learn. In the next few weeks and months we will reach the stage where we know more than anyone else bout this with the possible exceptions of Peter Lindermann and John Bedini.
One of the problems of the transformer effect is that it lowers the flux in the coils therefore reducing torque. This could be mitigated in three ways, the first being increasing the speed and there is some suggestion of this in Johns video when he suggests a speed of 6000 RPM. The second is placing a magnet in the magnetic circuit as this will increase flux but if there is significant residual magnetism we already have the magnet. The third is parallel path which I posted about some time ago. http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/7648-lockridge-device-original-parallel-path-motor.html Although the Lockridge looks relatively simple it is very complex in the interactions. Weather the Lockridge was parallel path or not remains to be seen but it is clear that if it wasn't, it is obvious that it would benefit from it.
For now we will test each section one step at a time so that we understand the complexities and pitfalls. Discovery is a process of trial, error and accident but in rediscovery we have the advantage of knowing some things already but there may be things we believe to be true that are not.
If you are able, it may be an Idea to wind a coil with say 50 turns of 18# wire for testing. In my universal motor I have use 30 turns of 23# wire.
Wow, is this explaining the use of the capacitor in the lockridge as well as the gray motor?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im2TvLXW5bc&feature=relmfu
Quote from: mbrownn on 2012.05.04, 11:28:10
Wow, is this explaining the use of the capacitor in the lockridge as well as the gray motor?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im2TvLXW5bc&feature=relmfu
This does explain a lot. the rpm of the motor has a lot to do with it. The ones we are working with the rpm cam be changed by the size of the feild pole shoe ( shorter and narrower ) but then the feild coil has to accomodiate the shoe. I have experimented wirh some. Like i said before I have one Motor that runs at about 10,316 rpms. I dont dare let it run any faster it starts shaking like it wants to lift off. This is a belt driven 110 volt ac generator i run on 12 modified. Like the one from powermite only mine is in a different style case.
Looks like a rain day so will get some time this afternoon to do the last couple of test you mentioned.
How do you want the coil wound . is it for the feild coil.
Never got done what i had planned last week. New week ahead of us. Will try tomorrow to get the last tests done.
Test conclusions ----One stock gm generator. 2 feild coils the same. 4.7k ohms for load across gen feild coil. Motor coil in series with armature. Gen feild coil bothe leads brought out of case for testing.
Test 1--motor stalled no load--- motor coil 160.6 volts
gen coil 46.6 volts
Tes 2--motor stalled with load motor coil 160.6 volts
gen coil 48.1 volts
Test 3-- motor running no load -- motor coil 163.6 volts
gen coil 46.7 volts
Test 4--motor running with load--162.2 volts
gen coil 46.7 volts
these test were with the variac wide open - to the max.
Question. which coil did you want rewound, the motor coilor the gen coil. I did this about a year ago with a feild coil from a snow plow lift motor. It is about 2/3 the size of the gen coil we arwe working with. When used for a generator coil and a load put on it while the unit is motorising it will gain in rpm. the one i have gains 870 rpm. will rechech later today to make sure where I put the load for the gain.
I need to get an adapter fot the computer and a camera to use for the scope shots . i havent hooked up the scope to any of the tests yet. My daughter said she would come help me figure out what to do. as I dont have a clue what to do.
I tried to get the motor that gave me the 870 rpm gainto work today. But wouldnt cooperate with me. Dont know for sure but i think i had one of those armatures in there with the wide slots from the cub cadets. It wont work with the narrow slot armatures.I did find out that there two different armatures for the delco gens we are working on.
The winding is different and one is more effecient than the other as far as rpm. One is kind of wound in a spiral on the end opposite the commutator. the other is more of a cross over winding which i think is more effecient.
Should be able to get you some scope shots. daughter said she can take the pictures and run them through her computer, But might have to send them e-mail to you.
Got another project Ive been working on also. Unit goes silent, lost the effect, trying to get it back.
Quote from: Hiwater on 2012.05.07, 20:01:24
Test conclusions ----One stock gm generator. 2 feild coils the same. 4.7k ohms for load across gen feild coil. Motor coil in series with armature. Gen feild coil bothe leads brought out of case for testing.
Test 1--motor stalled no load--- motor coil 160.6 volts
gen coil 46.6 volts
Tes 2--motor stalled with load motor coil 160.6 volts
gen coil 48.1 volts
Test 3-- motor running no load -- motor coil 163.6 volts
gen coil 46.7 volts
Test 4--motor running with load--162.2 volts
gen coil 46.7 volts
these test were with the variac wide open - to the max.
I assume that the motor coil voltages were measured with the meter, how high was the voltage applied across the motor including the armature?
The voltage you are using is much higher than I expected, I thought less than 12v input would be needed to make it spin. Maybe it is the variac that cannot supply the current, motors use current to run not volts.
These results suggests to me that we have a low efficiency transformer action and little or no generator function, all in all about 30% efficient. that fits in with what is known about universal motor efficiencies.
Quote from: HiwaterQuestion. which coil did you want rewound, the motor coilor the gen coil. I did this about a year ago with a feild coil from a snow plow lift motor. It is about 2/3 the size of the gen coil we arwe working with. When used for a generator coil and a load put on it while the unit is motorising it will gain in rpm. the one i have gains 870 rpm. will rechech later today to make sure where I put the load for the gain.
I need to get an adapter fot the computer and a camera to use for the scope shots . i havent hooked up the scope to any of the tests yet. My daughter said she would come help me figure out what to do. as I dont have a clue what to do.
Yes its the motor armature coil, the tests suggest that for the transformer action we would need a ratio of four to one but we do not know if there are any generator effects yet. Once we get generation at the same time as transformer action I am expecting the efficiency to go up or down. If it goes down then our generator action is opposing our transformer.
Quote from: HiwaterThe winding is different and one is more effecient than the other as far as rpm. One is kind of wound in a spiral on the end opposite the commutator. the other is more of a cross over winding which i think is more effecient.
If you find one please take pictures
Your scope is to all intents and purposes a graphical volt meter so set the voltage range above the voltage you can measure and then adjust the timescale until you get a waveform.
If you could apply about 6vDC across the armature and spin the device in the same direction as it ran with an electric drill this will give us an idea of the generator action. Don't forget to use the resistor then the bulb as loads measure any voltage output. in one field coil.
I was expecting about 6v input with around 3v output but having said that, with only a small load on the output there is no compensation on the motor so its inductance will be high. when there is a high load on the output we have inductive compensation reducing the impedance of the motor section. more current should flow and the motor should speed up.
The more I think about this I think the current limited variac may have given us false results. My variac is only 4 amps but the motor I am going to connect to it is only going to require that or less. Your generator could well be 10 amps or more
Now repeat all the tests and measure the output current and compare it with the input.
I just ran a test on my motor. 30 turns 23# wire on motor field coil, Resistance is too low to measure but is a lot less than 1 ohm. armature in position but not powered as I haven't got the brushes sorted yet. The input was 2v AC 3.6A or 7.2w
The generator field coil is the standard coil fitted to a 220v 400w universal motor, it is approximately 120 turns, 12 ohms + or _ 1 ohm. The output was 6.2v AC 0.5A or 3.1w
This would be a 50% efficiency although the meter accuracy on AC amps is plus or minus 10% on this range
Ok there was no current in the armature but it does prove there is a transformer action and we can step up.
I accidentally hit it with 250v when I switched on and the thing vibrated so much it moved across the table, luckily I switched it off before any damage was done. The motor windings are designed for 6 to 12v when running.
Based on your test I will rewind the generator field coil with 100 turns and remove turns as required when we start to get things working but I did want to see what the original coil would do.
read the posts. The stock motor coil has to have 140 volts ac and 8 amps to rotate about 50 rpms a minute It will not ratate on 6 or 12 volts dc. way too much resistance.
Was trying to get some test done using the scope. But the gen gets hot too fast. having a hard time to get the scope pattern on the screen in the right place before i have to shut it down. Will keep trying.
The 6 volt tests;
7.2 volts to excite motor feild coil
Test 1--- not rotating across motor no load
motor coil---2.2 volts dc
gen coil------3.6 volts ac
test 2-- not rotating with load
gen coil 4.7k ohms--- 3.6 volts ac and 12 volt bulb o volts
motor coil 2.2 volts both tests
test 3--motor spinning no load
motor coil 5.5 volts up from 2.2
gen coil---2.8 volts ac
test 4 motor spinning with load
motor coil 4.2 volts dc
gen coil 4.7k ohms 2.6 volts ac
motor coil 4.2 v-dc---12volt bulb and gen coil at o volts.
hope you can make some sense out of these numbers.
These test are like the ones the other day except these are the amp readings voltage about the same. It takes 140 volts to make that generator rotate at close to 8 amps.
Test 1 motor stalled no load motor coil 7.85 amps
gen coil open .7 one wire-- .9 other wire
wires connected 1.87 amps
Test2--motor stalled with load motor coil---8.06 amps
gen coil 4.7k ohms 0 amps
Test 3-motor running no load motor coil--7.2 amps
gen coil .4 amps
test 4 motor running with load motor coil 7.54 amps
gen coil.11 amps at 4.7k ohms ( on these tests if I use the bulb I dont get any reading on the gen coil) I used a clamp on meter for these tests. It has amps and voltage scale.
How much transformer action do you think there is in one of these generators. Dont seem like it does what we want it to do.
i did run one of these generators on an electric motor just to check the charging with out any power connected up to it. Darn near jumped out of my hands. so then i pit the generator on a frame wiith a flywheel to see if it would charge when i disconnected the power. No wont charge. think i have it running the wrong way. I know they will only charge one way . might be able to connect the cables the other way, dont know . it will free wheel for over 2 minutes at 4500rpms top and coasting down. So i want it to continue charging on the way down. the residual magnetisim in these as speed picks you dont need any power connected to them.
As long as we can have them charge in the direction they are motorised. so the armature reaction dont slow them down. We wanrt the armature reaction to help push the armatur in direction of rotation. Some food for thought.
Oh almost for got I tried the ac on one of my sta-gens it went to 39amps right now but it wanted to rotate right away. so i think youre on the right track by doing that coil like youre talking about. To get an even ratio of motor winding to gen winding. May a person could weigh them out to get the right weight distribution. Iv done that before works pretty good.
Quote from: Hiwater on 2012.05.08, 18:51:20
read the posts. The stock motor coil has to have 140 volts ac and 8 amps to rotate about 50 rpms a minute It will not ratate on 6 or 12 volts dc. way too much resistance.
Was trying to get some test done using the scope. But the gen gets hot too fast. having a hard time to get the scope pattern on the screen in the right place before i have to shut it down. Will keep trying.
Wow 140v at 8A to get it to rotate at 50 RPM? that's 1120 watts, something isn't right there.
I assume it is a 12v generator, what is the resistance of the field coils? best to check the resistance of the armature too, maybe there is a break or short somewhere.
If it is a generator the brushes will be in the wrong place for motoring which would reduce its efficiency but I would not expect such a big difference.
Quote from: HiwaterThe 6 volt tests;
7.2 volts to excite motor feild coil
Test 1--- not rotating across motor no load
motor coil---2.2 volts dc
gen coil------3.6 volts ac
If this test was with a resistor across the output and the motor and generator coils are both the same, it is very interesting as we have a voltage gain. The rest of the first tests makes sense and is what I would expect but your second set of tests just don't make sense to me as there is little correlation. something isn't right.
Try reversing the polarity of the motor field winding and see if that does anything
With the motor stalled we have only the transformer action and the action of the magnetic field of the armature coil so we should get an output voltage and current. the lower the load, the higher the voltage with the current being opposite. With the motor running we should have either a cancellation of the voltage or a gain with the same thing happening to the current.
I wonder if there are any diodes or anything built into the windings?
I think we need to check the resistance of the armature and field windings, do it in both directions, it should be the same.
I did retest on the 6 volt application yesterday. the tests are conclusive. there is a modest gain. So we know that part.
I used another variac for retestin a couple of the ac tests. Across motor coil 135.0 volts ac and the sec was 48-50 volts. if i put too big a load on the sec the voltage drops to zero, Motor a gen coil 3.6 ohms each..armature resistance.2 ohms every section. Amps across motor coil 6.81 stalled. running was 6.23 amps.
dont make any difference in opposite rotation.
Works better with other variac. still cant get the scope pattern on the ac. Spikes are from top to bottom of screen. I think it works ok on the dc though. Been working on the camera. Trying to get it setup for e-mailing pictures.So going to attempt to send you one picture through your pm e-mail. then you can reply letting me know if you got it.
With such low resistances the problem is obvious, the variac cannot supply the amps required at 100+ volts hence the false readings. You will not be able to run the motor on the variac and get good readings at this voltage.
Drop your AC volts to about 2 to 4v and read the output like I did. Your resistance suggests you should only be drawing about 1.5 amps at 6v. I don't understand why you cant get it to run on the variac at a similar voltage and ampage.
I have come up with a circuit (http://www.falstad.com/circuit/#%24+1+1.0000000000000002E-6+47.65948060424672+59+5.0+50%0Al+576+224+528+224+0+0.015+1.7718478901136514%0Av+896+384+896+224+0+0+40.0+250.0+0.0+0.0+0.5%0A178+704+272+736+272+0+2+2.0E-9+7.3E-322+0.05+1000000.0+0.02+20.0%0Ac+704+272+672+272+0+5.0E-7+32.55977998047937%0Aw+736+256+816+256+0%0Aw+816+240+816+256+0%0Av+864+384+832+384+0+0+40.0+12.0+0.0+0.0+0.5%0Aw+816+240+736+240+0%0Aw+736+288+736+528+0%0Av+704+304+704+320+0+2+100.0+5.0+5.0+0.0+0.5%0Ad+896+528+736+528+1+0.805904783%0Ad+896+208+864+208+1+0.805904783%0Aw+896+384+896+416+0%0Aw+896+416+896+448+0%0Aw+896+448+896+480+0%0Aw+816+256+816+384+0%0Ar+832+384+816+384+0+0.062%0Aw+896+480+896+528+0%0Ar+704+224+576+224+0+4.0%0Ar+896+208+896+224+0+0.8%0Aw+656+272+656+288+0%0Aw+656+272+656+256+0%0Av+656+288+624+288+0+0+40.0+100.0+0.0+0.0+0.5%0Av+624+256+656+256+0+0+40.0+100.0+0.0+0.0+0.5%0Ad+576+272+624+288+1+0.805904783%0Ad+624+256+576+272+1+0.805904783%0Aw+656+272+672+272+0%0Aw+864+384+896+384+0%0Ac+864+208+864+384+0+9.999999999999999E-6+274.4583382235312%0Ad+864+208+736+208+1+0.805904783%0AT+464+224+528+272+0+0.015+0.4+3.3306690738754696E-14+1.7718478901136505+0.999%0Aw+576+272+528+272+0%0Ap+464+224+464+272+0%0Ad+368+256+400+224+1+0.805904783%0Ad+400+224+416+256+1+0.805904783%0Ad+368+256+400+272+1+0.805904783%0Ad+400+272+416+256+1+0.805904783%0Aw+416+128+864+128+0%0Aw+864+128+864+208+0%0Aw+368+432+864+432+0%0Aw+864+432+864+384+0%0Av+464+272+400+272+0+0+40.0+250.0+0.0+0.0+0.5%0Ar+464+224+400+224+0+1.0%0Aw+368+432+368+256+0%0Aw+416+256+416+128+0%0Ao+3+64+0+291+640.0+3.2+0+-1%0Ao+1+64+1+291+7.62939453125E-5+9.765625E-5+1+-1%0Ao+6+64+1+35+40.0+9.765625E-5+2+-1%0Ao+0+64+1+291+640.0+9.765625E-5+3+-1%0Ao+28+64+0+291+640.0+3.2+4+-1%0Ao+18+64+0+33+5.0+3.2+5+-1%0Ao+32+64+0+34+640.0+9.765625E-5+6+-1%0Ao+41+64+1+291+320.0+9.765625E-5+7+-1%0A) to use an unmodified motor and I can get it into overunity on the simulator with the specs of one of my motors.
I think we should investigate this option before we butcher any windings on your generator.
The gain on your DC reading could be good news or it could be a ripple, we wont know without a scope reading. Try taking a scope reading on this as your spikes wont be so high.
The motor you are using for the tests. Is it a standard ac motor or is it a 12 volt dc motor. Trying to figure out why your volts and amps are down so low.
There is some technicle glitch in the service provider. Just got off the phone with them. They are trying to remedy the problem.
It started life as a 400w 220v angle grinder but I have now replaced one of the field coils and rewound the rotor with similar turns to what I found on a 12v motor but with heavy gauge wire.
The voltage across a motor needs to be as low as possible as it is only the current that produces a magnetic field. Resistance produced heat losses under ohms law so the lower the voltage and resistance the lower the loss. Of course you have to apply enough voltage to get the required current under ohms law. With very low resistances we can make a motor run very well on just a few volts.
I have a 1.2Kw 220v motor that will run at around 800 to 1000 RPM on 12v, Its field coils are around 1 ohm. unfortunately there is a break in the armature coil so I get quite a bit of arcing on the brushes.
With your motor, whatever the voltage it will run on DC, divide it by 8 and then multiply it by 10 and that is the AC voltage that should make the same amount of current flow and the motor should perform almost the same.
I don't understand why your motor does not like AC, it should run on it with a single figure voltage. Your field coil is 3.6 ohms and your armature will be in a similar range. the brushes may be 3 to 6 ohms so with one field coil and the armature with the brushes you are probably at 10ish ohms. With 12v applied that would give you 1.2 amps. You said you were getting between 6 and 7 amps on 6 volts so your total resistance must be less than 1 ohm. I understand that cheap meters are not accurate at measuring such low resistances so I didn't say anything. To run your motor on AC divide 6 by 8 and multiply by 10 and you get 7.5 volts to get a similar performance. One possibility could be that your stator and field coil shoes don't like to change polarity because of the residual magnetism. To test this and do a transformer test we can use an AC supply rectified by a single diode. Observing the polarity that it runs on with DC apply the half wave rectified AC and see if it runs. Of course because you have halved the input we will need to increase the voltage again. If this does not work I am stumped. Residual magnetism may be a required factor in the lockridge so don't worry about it at this stage. If it is residual magnetism that is causing the problem then the last circuit I posted wont work on your motor.
One thing I have noticed with brushes, their resistance is higher at start, then drops as the speed increases a little then goes up as high speed is reached. Of course it isn't the brushes, it is how good the contact is with the commutator.
All these unforeseen problems are nothing to worry about, they help us learn about our motors and what they are capable of. Unfortunately little is on the net about what we are doing so we have to learn the hard way.
How high is the friction on your motor?
By the time we have developed this motor generator you will know more about these motors than virtually anyone alive, seriously I mean that and so will I. Almost every motor designer just follows the basics that are written in books and what is programmed in computers. They ignore what interactions we are looking to exploit and just regard them as a loss. Any energy that you can exploit in a motor is no longer a loss. If residual magnetism is a factor that we need, we have just turned a loss into a gain so while your results may be different to mine, we know one of the reasons.
If you run a universal motor on DC it is more efficient than on AC, I believe this is because we are not changing the polarity of the Iron in the stator and we know that the changing polarity is part of the iron loss. the other parts are hysteresis (what ever this is) and eddy currents. My motor should be better on eddy currents.
I just had a wow moment. I took a 1.2kw 220v angle grinder with a damaged armature and disconnected the second field winding. I powered it with 20v AC and measured the signal on the scope. I noticed that there were some faint transients on the input signal at the peaks of the AC wave measuring at least 80v above the wave. I then put the scope on the unused winding and measured the signal. I was getting a very dirty signal of 8v AC giving me about 14 transients per sine wave of about 6 to 20v above the AC, except at the peaks where the transient was 160v and very pronounced. Much stronger signal than seen on the input coil.
The damage to the armature is a break in the winding so that it isn't a complete loop
I took a pic with my cell phone but it is not very clear
The question is, Why are the transients bigger and more pronounced on the disconnected coil ?
I posed the question on the energetic forum and I was reminded of something.
The AC wave is obviously a transformer action between the powered field coil and the unpowered one and as expected the AC wave is of reduced voltage Most of the small transients were not visible on the powered coil but were strong and defined on the unpowered one. Usually the intensity of the signal on these types of scope is an indication of power in the spike but I wasn't expecting an increase in voltage and intensity of spkes from this unpowered coil
Second question, why are the transients so much bigger at the peaks of the wave? ie up to 20x when on the rise or fall it was about 2x
If you were looking to make transients and feed them to your source battery, placing a bridge rectifier on this would surely work although it is hard on the brushes.
The arcing at the brushes is reduced when a load is placed across the unused coil, this is known as inductive compensation.
Quote@ boguslaw
I don't know if this is the same but I found that a 1:1 ferrite transformer can produce very high voltage spikes on disconnected secondary side . I thought it was like in Joule Thief but maybe not. 200v spikes from 12V input at 50mA.
I can charge 200uF capacitor to 200v or more quite fast in few seconds and I can find some resonant frequencies when the output spikes are more clear and stable but at other frequencies they are diffused.
Anyway it works at 18khz or generally in khz range with the ferrite generating some noisy sound (but at resonant frequencies it is more clear also) .
The only thing interesting was the 1:1 choke used for this , I didn't expected it but I know now that output of transformer can be made via Faraday law differently then based on turns ratio. Something like that was reported first by Tesla.
I apologize if this is a known method of producing DC-DC inverters , I'm not experienced in electronics.
I have btw also a question. I tried to connect a voltage multiplier to the output of transformer but only the first stage seems to work the second stage voltage is just a few volts higher. Is that because I used 22nF/1000V capacitors and they are too big ? Unfortunately I cannot check it now, I don't have other capacitors to check . I appreciate any comment or help and apologize if this is offtopic.
You are on topic, I am studying the transformer effects in a motor.
Like you I am no expert so thanks for the tip on Faraday's law, I suppose it is like what happens in an ignition coil in a way but the ratio is 1 to 1.
I just put a neon on it and it blew out but it would not light a florescent tube
I think you hit the nail on the head with Faradays law creating transients but there is another effect too.
The armature and motor field coil are bucking to some degree and this could be a reason for the increase in voltage on the unpowered coil when compared to the powered coil.
JLN Labs - The TEP Project - Bifilar VS Bucking coils
In the motor the condition will be similar to the fourth setup on the above page, of course we are using AC and not square wave but notice how the transient is increased in size and duration when compared to the others.
Now I have to find an explanation as to why the effect is only at the crests of the wave.
I think it must be the same reason, because the fields of the coils are at their maximum when the transient occurs.
I just increased the voltage to 40 volts and I got the effect along most of the wave.
QuoteDear MBrownn
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbrownn View Post
I just had a wow moment. I took a 1.2kw 220v angle grinder with a damaged armature and disconnected the second field winding. I powered it with 20v AC and measured the signal on the scope. I noticed that there were some faint transients on the input signal at the peaks of the AC wave measuring at least 80v above the wave. I then put the scope on the unused winding and measured the signal. I was getting a very dirty signal of 8v AC giving me about 14 transients per sine wave of about 6 to 20v above the AC, except at the peaks where the transient was 160v and very pronounced. Much stronger signal than seen on the input coil.
The damage to the armature is a break in the winding so that it isn't a complete loop
My scope is an old analogue type
I took a pic with my cell phone but it is not very clear
The question is, Why are the transients bigger and more pronounced on the disconnected coil ?
The AC wave is obviously a transformer action between the powered field coil and the unpowered one and as expected the AC wave is of reduced voltage Most of the small transients were not visible on the powered coil but were strong and defined on the unpowered one. Usually the intensity of the signal on these types of scope is an indication of power in the spike but I wasn't expecting an increase in voltage and intensity of spkes from this unpowered coil
Hello MBrownn, nice to "see you" again,
By disconnecting one field of the stator motor, you are making an Asymmetrical Machine ...Therefore ALL Laws of Conservation of Energy simply do "Not Apply" (N/A)... anymore
The Primary (connected) Field starts some kind of "non symmetrical open induction" into the Secondary Field, this last one (2nd Field) by being open, starts to resonate its magnetic induced field from Primary, with the "Open Space", and, since absolutely nothing impedes from it to do so, as it no longer have a "killing reversed input" ...then it outputs those incredible spikes...
Quote:
Second question, why are the transients so much bigger at the peaks of the wave? ie up to 20x when on the rise or fall it was about 2x
This Open Coil (Secondary Field not connected) is Resonating, Feed-backing from and endless source of energy...It will keep developing this Higher Signals "in crescendo" as You increase the Primary Input AC Pulses...
I have named this as "Negative Induction"...an Open, Asymmetrical Induction established between a pulsed Coil response action with the Open Space...the Vacuum...the Aether...
Quote:
The arcing at the brushes is reduced when a load is placed across the unused coil, this is known as inductive compensation.
When you place a load on the non connected, resonating Coil...it establish some kind of reverse network communication with its "feeder" (the Primary Coil), demanding more "Positive Induction" in order to keep generating its new Load now is demanding...therefore, the Primary now has "Two Jobs" to perform:
1- To keep machine rotating
2- To feed secondary positive induction...
Therefore, diminishing the excessive arcing at brushes.
There is more to this...
I believe, (not sure because have not done the additional testings necessary as to be "completely" sure) But, I believe this reverse connection from secondary (not connected coil) to Primary, (connected) also allows the back flow to Primary of some of the Resonating Field Energy...
If you have time, measure Voltage across Primary as you load the Secondary...
I know...You now for sure...May think I have gone "completely" insane...
But am ok...
Regards
Ufopolitics
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
Hello MBrownn, nice to "see you" again,
By disconnecting one field of the stator motor, you are making an Asymmetrical Machine ...Therefore ALL Laws of Conservation of Energy simply do "Not Apply" (N/A)... anymore
The Primary (connected) Field starts some kind of "non symmetrical open induction" into the Secondary Field, this last one (2nd Field) by being open, starts to resonate its magnetic induced field from Primary, with the "Open Space", and, since absolutely nothing impedes from it to do so, as it no longer have a "killing reversed input" ...then it outputs those incredible spikes...
This Open Coil (Secondary Field not connected) is Resonating, Feed-backing from and endless source of energy...It will keep developing this Higher Signals "in crescendo" as You increase the Primary Input AC Pulses...
I have named this as "Negative Induction"...an Open, Asymmetrical Induction established between a pulsed Coil response action with the Open Space...the Vacuum...the Aether...
When you place a load on the non connected, resonating Coil...it establish some kind of reverse network communication with its "feeder" (the Primary Coil), demanding more "Positive Induction" in order to keep generating its new Load now is demanding...therefore, the Primary now has "Two Jobs" to perform:
1- To keep machine rotating
2- To feed secondary positive induction...
Therefore, diminishing the excessive arcing at brushes.
There is more to this...
I believe, (not sure because have not done the additional testings necessary as to be "completely" sure) But, I believe this reverse connection from secondary (not connected coil) to Primary, (connected) also allows the back flow to Primary of some of the Resonating Field Energy...
If you have time, measure Voltage across Primary as you load the Secondary...
I know...You now for sure...May think I have gone "completely" insane...
But am ok...
Regards
Ufopolitics
Not sure, you may have something or maybe not.
I have just been examining the spike more closely, It raises up 5v above the AC and has many small spikes of a volt or so above that then curves up into the huge spike. On the way down it also curves out much as it would with inductive kickback. No obvious oscillation as shown by JLN.
My gut feeling on this is that as the commutator draws an ark we get this 5v raise in voltage and as the arc breaks the voltage shoots up. on the way down it acts like inductive kickback until it drops to the voltage of the AC wave.
Of course the mirror image occurs on the negative side of the wave.
I will do the load test tomorrow as its 2am here
Sounds like youre on to something there. If theres a break in the wire you most be getting transformer action from one part to the other effecting the secondary coil.
When I was testing the locked torque motor-gen action. It seemed like i could charge that coil up with power it woud swing up past 4 volts if i pulsed ot pretty fast by hand. Upon disconnecting the meter would swing negative but couldnt tell how much below zero it would go.
I think a person can pump these coils up to pretty high voltage if we change the positive brush so it charges the motor coil a little longer.
Ill put that on my to do list. keep testing one thing allways leads to what we need to know for the next step.
Quote from: Hiwater on 2012.05.15, 03:13:40
Sounds like youre on to something there. If theres a break in the wire you most be getting transformer action from one part to the other effecting the secondary coil.
When I was testing the locked torque motor-gen action. It seemed like i could charge that coil up with power it woud swing up past 4 volts if i pulsed ot pretty fast by hand. Upon disconnecting the meter would swing negative but couldnt tell how much below zero it would go.
I think a person can pump these coils up to pretty high voltage if we change the positive brush so it charges the motor coil a little longer.
Ill put that on my to do list. keep testing one thing allways leads to what we need to know for the next step.
I believe so, the trick is to get all these interactions to supply their potential in the same direction so that it adds and not subtracts. I believe geometry can do that to some extent
Here is my last post on the energetics thread. http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/11399-wow-transients.html#post193090 we are making progress one step at a time. I think the transformer action is proven, the bucking coil effect seems to be real and in the direction of the transformer action. now we need to establish if the generator action is is the same direction and if it is in phase with the transformer action.
Question. Is the transformer action the same as the armature action. Armature reaction or the charge cycle reaction (as I call It can be done). This m
means that when you put a load on the sec the armature speed up. But I have only done that with one wire connected to the positive brush from the secondary and the other to the load (bulb and ground). Each generator-motor is different. Some of these motors just dont want to work that way. I have taken the same generator wound the coils the same way done every thing thr same, that I could think of and wont work. In fact I worked on this all day yesterday. I wound 3 different secondary coils to get the effect. But still wouldnt speed up. I can get it so it doesnt slow the motor down, stays the same speed. But we need the armature to be pushed under load.
I did find out yesterday that the load resistance on the secondary has to be the right resistance to get the best effect when connedcted to the secondary coil. It may bog the motor down right away, but then pick up in speed if the resistance is too high. If it lower it will pick up in rpm right away.
Another thing is the air gap has to be wider to get the rpm gain In theory. going to work on that today. To see if it does proove any thing.
Also all armatures are no made the same. this is what baffles me. Some you can get the effect, others you cant. Work still in progress.
Got your pics, by the way your workshop is cleaner than mine :-[. The armatures appear to be wound different but its impossible to say without testing.
QuoteQuestion. Is the transformer action the same as the armature action. Armature reaction or the charge cycle reaction (as I call It can be done). This m
means that when you put a load on the sec the armature speed up. But I have only done that with one wire connected to the positive brush from the secondary and the other to the load (bulb and ground). Each generator-motor is different. Some of these motors just dont want to work that way.
Not sure what you mean, can you do a sketch?
The armature may speed up under load on the generator coil as it is compensating armature reaction. It will also speed up when the gap is increased as the generating action is reduced. as you can see both these actions are opposed so there should not be much difference in the loaded condition.
Try those tests and compare results for the different components
Are you using a diode on your supply to produce half wave rectification? hopefully this will solve the residual magnetism problem
I was thinking about how the transformer action was working along with the armature reactiion. I see that its 2 different cycles.
Youre right about the air gap. No I havent tried the diode yet, been busy with work again. Maybe this weekend.
When I get time im going to put in 2 motor run coils and time them so one fires then the other and check the charge coil to see how much gain there is.
I also have that old 110 volt i have to get out and do those experiments on. i put in a 12 volt motor coil to spin it. Was gettin somethin like 48 volts out of it. Ac that is. if i rectify it should be quite a bit more. I was charging capacitors with and it would put out 15 amps. Heck of a spark.
never an end to experiments is there.
I will be moving houses over the next week so wont be on much
Hope the moving went well :)
On reading your report of the broken winding, I do believe you've found the Eureka effect. Not that i'm any form of expert...however would I be right in thinking it relates to an unloading of what would have been caught up energies ?
In other words, i think it relates to Ufopolitics viewpoint. Perhaps consider Lenz Law as a spring or shock absorber on a car, that is compressed when loaded. Similarly to shorting a winding and seeing effects like speed up under load, completely the opposite of breaking a connection may allow collapse energies to leave the system and be usefully collected.
My thought, if it can be considered, is to tap that broken winding finding for all it has going for it, in another fully wound motor. Can the connection be made and broken ? made with an extra brush point, which then releases the energy at the point you see on your scope shot ?
I imagine the make point to be just after a magnetic interaction and release point to be just when conventional Lenz Law says the compressing ought to be in effect. Your tuning then becomes a case of tuning like a car from TDC, a degree left, a degree right.
Any which way, a fascinating scope shot O0
I finally got moved but I havn't got a clue where all my stuff is :( I also started a job on Monday so I have less time to experiment butI will do as much as I can.
The UFO guy has some interesting concepts but I would like to know more. I think I know why the broken winding causes huge spikes but it is just another clue into the workings of these types of motors
Quote from: mbrownn on 2012.05.15, 05:33:41
I believe so, the trick is to get all these interactions to supply their potential in the same direction so that it adds and not subtracts. I believe geometry can do that to some extent
Here is my last post on the energetics thread. http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/11399-wow-transients.html#post193090 we are making progress one step at a time. I think the transformer action is proven, the bucking coil effect seems to be real and in the direction of the transformer action. now we need to establish if the generator action is is the same direction and if it is in phase with the transformer action.
This is something that i have been working on. Havent quite got it figured out yet. some principles. If the motor motorises 1 way- the residual magnetisim is in that direction. Then if i drive the motor in that direction It wont generate un till the charge coil wires are reversed.
So the motor action and generator action must be 90 degrees out of phase. If i rotate it the other direction it wont charge at all. Untill maybe the residual magnetisim is reversed. Just therory as of right now untill i can verify it.
I think the charge cycle in the armature has to be wound at 90 degrees to the motor cycle in the armature. Also is the BEMF 180 degrees out of phase. If this is the case to make use of this the part we want to use for the BEMF has to be wound opposite of the initial positive voltage to make it work for us. this will push the rotor ahead. im just throwing some things out there for us to think about.
Just some things to consider. The trifflar coil off the motor side could have been, with one of the windings to get a lot of BEMF back in to the rotor was switched or pulsed. if it was wound in series to ground from the second motor coil which was i think both north poles. So the generator coils would have to be south poles. then we can go from there as to how we think the gen circuit works. Motor coil and gen coil use 1/4 of the armature. creating a vortex in the center of the armature for some extra energy to come in. Like in Walter Russels coil drawings. Just some of my thoughts. The light at the end of the tunnel is getting closer.
Quote from: mbrownn on 2012.05.14, 15:40:51
I just had a wow moment. I took a 1.2kw 220v angle grinder with a damaged armature and disconnected the second field winding. I powered it with 20v AC and measured the signal on the scope. I noticed that there were some faint transients on the input signal at the peaks of the AC wave measuring at least 80v above the wave. I then put the scope on the unused winding and measured the signal. I was getting a very dirty signal of 8v AC giving me about 14 transients per sine wave of about 6 to 20v above the AC, except at the peaks where the transient was 160v and very pronounced. Much stronger signal than seen on the input coil.
The damage to the armature is a break in the winding so that it isn't a complete loop
I took a pic with my cell phone but it is not very clear
The question is, Why are the transients bigger and more pronounced on the disconnected coil ?
Was the 160 volt rise the same direction as the positive voltag in put or was it the reverse. Was just wondering if it was the BEMF doing it or how the voltage was built up. Is this with the rotor you rewound or a different one. Also is the rotor all series wound connecting to each commutator section. This is definitly somrething to persue farther. Could be the break were looking for. Thanks.
Quote from: Hiwater on 2012.05.27, 15:59:01
This is something that i have been working on. Havent quite got it figured out yet. some principles. If the motor motorises 1 way- the residual magnetisim is in that direction. Then if i drive the motor in that direction It wont generate un till the charge coil wires are reversed.
On the residual magnetism, this is good for generated EMF but also is the cause of the BEMF in the motor coil as BEMF and Generated EMF is the same thing. As far as transformer action is concerned, the residual magnetism may work against us as the varying field will not vary so much but the transformer action also reduces flux in the motor coils reducing torque, the residual magnetism may be a benefit in this case as it will increase flux in the iron cores partially compensating for the loss of flux.
The generation in the second coil occurs in the opposite direction to the input current in the primary as does the transformer action so these should work togeather for our benefit but I think you a right about the geometry, I will have to be changed.
Quote from: Hiwater on 2012.05.27, 15:59:01So the motor action and generator action must be 90 degrees out of phase. If i rotate it the other direction it wont charge at all. Untill maybe the residual magnetisim is reversed. Just therory as of right now untill i can verify it.
I think the charge cycle in the armature has to be wound at 90 degrees to the motor cycle in the armature. Also is the BEMF 180 degrees out of phase. If this is the case to make use of this the part we want to use for the BEMF has to be wound opposite of the initial positive voltage to make it work for us. this will push the rotor ahead. im just throwing some things out there for us to think about.
As I said we will have to change the geometry but I suspect it might not be as much as 90 degrees. It isn't that the BEMF is 180 degrees out of phase, its in the opposite direction and out of phase
Quote from: Hiwater on 2012.05.27, 15:59:01Just some things to consider. The trifflar coil off the motor side could have been, with one of the windings to get a lot of BEMF back in to the rotor was switched or pulsed. if it was wound in series to ground from the second motor coil which was i think both north poles. So the generator coils would have to be south poles. then we can go from there as to how we think the gen circuit works. Motor coil and gen coil use 1/4 of the armature. creating a vortex in the center of the armature for some extra energy to come in. Like in Walter Russels coil drawings. Just some of my thoughts. The light at the end of the tunnel is getting closer.
Inductive kickback, transients, transformer actions and BEMF are not the same thing, they are four different things. BEMF and generated current are the same thing and occur as a result of a magnetic field cutting a coil. With the trifilar coil, assuming we have no magnetic fields cutting it, will have a varying transformer type field and so a transformer action will occur. As we will switch off the current rapidly we will also get inductive kickback which is a ramp down of current equal to the energy stored in the capacitance of the coil, that is able to impedance match its load (in other words it can be connected to a higher voltage output than the input as well as higher resistance but it will contain the same energy no mater what the load is), on top of this we get a transient of high voltage which has negligible current.
It is likely that this coil is in series with our motor but will not be effected by the magnetic poles in the motor however it may have an influence on them. As it is effectively wrapped around the same iron case, it may increase flux in the iron increasing torque. As it is likely to be of very low resistance there will be little losses so only giving a benefit in this manor. Our rotor will be disconnected electrically from the trifilar coil when the inductive kickback occurs but the magnetism could increase flux in the motor core causing more torque.
To be honest the vortex field makes my head spin ;D ;D
I suspect we can see the light at the end of the tunnel but I don't know how far it is away, every time I think I have it, I find a new problem to solve.
Quote from: HiwaterWas the 160 volt rise the same direction as the positive voltag in put or was it the reverse. Was just wondering if it was the BEMF doing it or how the voltage was built up. Is this with the rotor you rewound or a different one. Also is the rotor all series wound connecting to each commutator section. This is definitly somrething to persue farther. Could be the break were looking for. Thanks.
The transients are in the same direction as the voltage, that is if the voltage is more positive the spike is positive, If the voltage is going negative then the spike is negative. Its not the BEMF, It is the inductive kickback and transient. The rotor is lap wound (standard) but with a break in the wire in one place. Its a partially burned out motor. The key here is the gain in the transient, with my modified rotor I will get exactly this effect but in one direction when running on DC and we collect it in the output coil. Each Time I find something relevant, I post about it but no one seems to understand what the relevance is ;D ;D
To sum up, we have a generator action and transformer action in the same direction at the same time but we need to move the location of the generator coil to maximize the generator action. We have an increase in magnitude of the transients with no increase in input power. We have inductive kickback. We have a loss in flux due to the transformer action but residual magnetism may compensate for this to some extent and if we wind the trifilar coil around the motor this may also compensate for flux loss. In all these actions we have only one iron loss and one friction loss.
Now lets do a thought experiment.
If our motor is 35% efficient, friction and copper losses are 15% and the iron losses being the remaining 50%
We input 100w so that 35w are converted to mechanical power and 35% of 35 watts is the inductive kickback power so now our mechanical power is 47.25w
Our generator will only have copper losses as the iron and friction losses were paid by the motor so lets say it is effectively 95% efficient giving us an output of 44.88w of generated power.
Our transformer action again will only have copper losses so lets assume it is again 95% efficient. But do we consider the 100w input for the transformer action or only the 35w after losses? I will assume worst case so we have 35 + 12.25 inductive kickback x 0.95 so we get another 44.88w, giving a total of 89.76w output of electrical power.
This isn't enough but wait, now we add the Gray circuit using the capacitor to recycle the energy put in the motor. now we have 35 + 12.25 x 89.76% additional power to play with or another 40.28 watts giving us an output of 130w. All this without the trifilar coil.
Havent had much time to work on these projects. I did have some time to experiment with moving the main brushes. changing there
position relative to the feild coils. Nothing concrete yet. Next thing is to take the wires off the armature and rewind it. I believe this is the
next step, before anymore improvements will show up.
I think we can set it up to pulse without altering the windings with an external commutator, do you want to give it a try? we can even try the Gray or Aviso circuits on the standard motor
Anyone heard from Ramset, he has not logged in for 50 days which was about the time i heard he had been involved in an industrial accident, hope he's OK
Quote from: mbrownn on 2012.06.11, 14:07:09
I think we can set it up to pulse without altering the windings with an external commutator, do you want to give it a try? we can even try the Gray or Aviso circuits on the standard motor
Sure im all for it. I have plenty of commutators i can use. Just need to figure out how to adapt it to the shaft or make a split ring unit out of copper pipe.
i was checking polarity on the armature this evening . Its not what i thought. Whith the brushes 180 degrees, north is 90 degrees to the armature. That is when the north on the compass points exactly to the armature. The same on the south side. it points to the armature 90 degrees between the brushes. So the north is between the pole shoes, same with the south. That is the strongest point on both sides.
The armatures must be wound advanced a few armature slots. Lookin at the ones i have they are about 3 armature slots off the commutator bars. Going to do some more checking tomorrow evening. The more I dig into this the more I find out I dont know.Which is good. It gives me more determination.
@ Peterae, no not heard from him.
Quote from: Hiwater on 2012.06.12, 03:03:37
Sure im all for it. I have plenty of commutators i can use. Just need to figure out how to adapt it to the shaft or make a split ring unit out of copper pipe.
i was checking polarity on the armature this evening . Its not what i thought. Whith the brushes 180 degrees, north is 90 degrees to the armature. That is when the north on the compass points exactly to the armature. The same on the south side. it points to the armature 90 degrees between the brushes. So the north is between the pole shoes, same with the south. That is the strongest point on both sides.
The armatures must be wound advanced a few armature slots. Lookin at the ones i have they are about 3 armature slots off the commutator bars. Going to do some more checking tomorrow evening. The more I dig into this the more I find out I dont know.Which is good. It gives me more determination.
Yes thats how the fields are on the rotor, hence the generator coil is not at 180 degrees to the motor coil.
The comutator you will need is similar to the one shown here http://www.fight-4-truth.com/Icehouse%20SR.jpg but the brushes will be placed differently. Then we wire it to the circuit I posted here http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=1461.0
Quote from: Peterae on 2012.06.11, 18:58:12
Anyone heard from Ramset, he has not logged in for 50 days which was about the time i heard he had been involved in an industrial accident, hope he's OK
His accident hurt his hand, and according to Chet, was not that serious.
But I haven't heard from him for a long time, either.
I will write him and see how he's doing.
Mbrownn.
Just checking in. I havent had much time to do any work on the pulsing unit yet. Ill let you know how it goes.
I should be able to connect the scope up to it to see what kind of spikes were getting.
I look forward to seeing it ;)
Had a quick phone conversation with Chet -- he says he's doing well. Beyond that, not much news.
good to here it
Mbrownn Looks like i put my last post in the wrong thread.
It does not matter hehe as all my posts are related to the lockridge device in some way or another.
The gray circuit could well be the motoring circuit of the lockridge, then we add the transformer and generator actions and "bingo" a potential self runner.
I have been thinking more about the transformer action, normally when the secondary is wound over the primary it reduces the field strength in the core, but in the lockridge we don't have that. We have the secondary on another part of the stator so the flux must pass through he armature to energize the secondary. This is why the inductive compensation improves motor power. The only difference is the energy in the inductive compensation coil is normally shorted where we will capture it to use elsewhere. Our problem here lays with the phase of the transformer action and how best to use it.
Here it is, this is how I think it could work using a Gray type circuit. It isn't a Lockridge device as such but a design of my own. This is using a partially modified four pole motor/generator.
The two transformers represent the four field coils, the other inductor is the rotor. The power is fed into the two motor coils in parallel and then into the rotor. These field coils are opposite each other on the stator. Two brushes will be required to power the motor. As the motor is in series with a capacitor all the inductive kickback ends up in that capacitor as well as the input power not consumed by the motor. normally a pulsed motor taking advantage of inductive kickback is in the region of 60 to 90% efficient but in this setup we will recover a significant amount of power in the capacitor. I expect to get somewhere between 50 to 100% of the power returned to this cap, this should be able to get us into the overunity window when it is used to power the second pulse of the motor.
The two field coils at 90 degrees to the power coils serve three purposes, secondaries on the transformer action which is also inductive compensation and generator coils. It may be that he location of these coils is not ideal for generation so we will have to test it.
We do not need to modify the rotor but splits in the case may be required to separate out the transformer/compensation actions.
The efficiency of the transformer and generator actions should be quite good as all the iron losses should have been provided by the motoring action but I suspect we will need twice the number of turns on the generator coils or more, when compared to the motor. As I said before, I don't expect a dramatic reduction in core flux caused by the transformer action because the secondaries are not wound over the primaries and in my previous tests shorting the compensation coil did not reduce the motor power but increased it. Air gaps will reduce the efficiency.
You will need to produce a commutator like we discussed before and place it on the motor shaft to do the switching
The bigger the capacitor the more power in each pulse but the lower the operating voltage, the capacitor must NOT be polarized and must be very fast, maybe made of a large bundle of smaller ones. See this circuit (http://www.falstad.com/circuit/#%24+1+2.0000000000000003E-6+119.19350207351468+36+5.0+50%0A178+448+304+480+304+0+2+2.0E-9+-2.37E-322+0.05+1.0E7+0.02+20.0%0Av+448+336+448+352+0+2+100.0+5.0+5.0+0.0+0.5%0Al+352+304+400+304+0+0.01+-8.38083942522605E-14%0Ar+400+256+320+256+0+1.0%0Av+448+304+400+304+0+0+40.0+7.5+0.0+0.0+0.5%0Av+960+320+960+240+0+0+40.0+24.0+0.0+0.0+0.5%0Ac+576+288+576+320+0+3.9999999999999996E-5+85.54036484648395%0Aw+576+272+576+288+0%0Aw+480+320+576+320+0%0Ad+576+272+480+272+1+0.805904783%0Ar+768+320+960+320+0+0.2%0AT+272+256+320+304+0+0.02+0.5+-1.1795452325451905+-4.872491299323656E-14+0.999%0Ar+400+352+320+352+0+1.0%0AT+272+352+320+400+0+0.02+0.5+-1.179545232545189+-3.8816172498457036E-14+0.999%0Aw+480+288+576+288+0%0Ac+768+240+768+320+0+6.3E-5+21.718815135943473%0As+768+240+960+240+0+1+false%0Aw+272+256+272+176+0%0Aw+272+176+768+176+0%0Ad+768+176+768+240+1+0.805904783%0Aw+272+400+272+496+0%0Aw+272+496+768+496+0%0Av+272+352+272+304+0+0+40.0+30.0+0.0+0.0+0.5%0Ad+768+240+480+240+1+0.805904783%0Ar+768+320+768+496+0+4.0%0Ar+576+320+768+320+0+1.0%0Aw+768+240+848+176+0%0As+848+176+992+176+0+1+false%0Aw+768+320+848+384+0%0Aw+848+384+992+384+0%0A181+992+176+992+384+0+300.000000000058+20.0+24.0+0.0040+0.0040%0Aw+320+400+352+400+0%0Aw+352+400+352+304+0%0Aw+320+304+352+304+0%0Aw+448+256+400+256+0%0Aw+400+256+400+352+0%0Ao+5+64+1+291+5.83992399055641E-5+9.765625000000001E-205+0+-1%0Ao+2+64+0+35+143.51633690928182+5.740653476371273+1+-1%0Ao+2+64+1+291+523.7424972633827+9.765625000000001E-155+1+-1%0Ao+6+64+0+291+149.65776766268445+11.972621413014757+2+-1%0Ao+6+64+1+291+598.6310706507378+9.765625E-55+3+-1%0Ao+15+64+0+291+149.65776766268445+5.986310706507378+4+-1%0Ao+15+64+1+35+299.3155353253689+9.765625E-55+4+-1%0Ao+22+64+1+291+149.65776766268445+9.765625E-55+5+-1%0Ao+30+64+1+35+7.62939453125E-5+9.765625E-5+6+-1%0A).
The reason I say that this isn't really the Lockridge is because the lockridge uses four brushes on the motor commutator and this does not.
You know -------that circuit looks like it might just work. its relatively somple to do also. I will do some more study on it.
Im not much on circuits, but i think i can figure this one out.
I have two generator coils out of a golf gart starter-generator. They just fit in beside the motor coils i put in one of the GM generators. had to grind the pole shoes down to make them fit. They are 12 volt so they should put out at least 16 volts dc.
The motor coil pole shoe covers 3 armature slots, so does the golf cart generator pole shoe. thats 6 slots on each side with one
left over on each side right under the slot in the case. its really tight trying to get the generating coils in at 90 degrees because of the insulation on each coil next to each other. But they are in. I have motorised it it runs fine bot havent done any checking on what the out put is yet. I was going to put one more brush in and run the gen coils in series.
Whats your sugestion after i get the pulse unit made. Holiday this week so should have some time if not to much company.
For my Gray based circuit, I would suggest using the generator coils you have a standard in the 90 degree positions but what you need to do is find out how many turns they have on them. Try weighing a coil and measure the gauge and that will give you a clue provided there isn't too much resin on them. Then wind two coils with half the number of turns on two other shoes for the motor coils as the standard motor coils will be too low in inductance and draw huge current. If you choose a large enough gauge of wire so that the coil with half the number of turns weighs the same as the generator coil you will have them in resonance and they will perform so much better. This is something that most people miss when building transformers. If you don't have room to do this, just test what you have and we will look at the results.
You only need two brushes and they will be placed to make a two pole universal motor. The motor field coils will be in parallel with each other but in series with the armature, the generator coils will be in series.
Before you have your commutator finished you can test the unit on DC then AC and post your results as any information you give will be helpful.
The tests you did before are the tests we need, especially when you have it pulsing.
One additional test would be to measure the motor torque and speed when running and when generating and compare that to the input power.
There are a few unknowns here, will we get any generation? Will we need to put slots in the case to get the transformer action we want? What size of capacitor will we need?
I am really excited about this as I believe we are getting closer.
Havent been able to get anything done on the lockridge since i was last on the board. Had good intentions , but that is as far as it has got.
Just too busy working to get anything done.
I have been following some of UFO politics posts at The EF forum. Looks pretty impresive.So have been trying to draw on paper how to rewind
my gen armature with the 14 armature slots and 28 comm bars. I cant figure it out yet. Maybe you can. Guess I just dont quite understand it yet.
New things take time for me to understand. Anyway thats about all i have been doing. How about you are you staying cool. Been really hot here.
I haven't been able to get anything done either, so we are both the same there.
UFO has posted some good stuff, unfortunately he is going over Matt Jones's old work that has proven unsuccessful. I tried to give UFO a tip but either he does not understand or he is misleading people as his reply had nothing to do with what I posted. I haven't followed my post up yet as he has a tenancy to attack people. He makes a lot of claims that cannot be just mistakes and mixes it with some missinfo so I am suspicious of his intentions. Hopefully I can get some tests done soon.
Sorry I have not been here for a while. I don't have an internet connection at the moment but hopefully i will soon.
Quote from: mbrownn on 2012.08.02, 22:53:19
Sorry I have not been here for a while. I don't have an internet connection at the moment but hopefully i will soon.
Seems like summer time is hard to get anything done with what i really want to do on these motors.
Hope ypu get your internet back up soon. When you do take some time and go on the EF forum, on UFOs armature rewinding thread. So we can see if we can figure out how to wind one of these generator armatures with the 14 slots. I dont quite understand it yet.
You would know the right questions to ask. I did try to rewind an armature with the dual pentagon . Got it to turn, but wasnt right. He did respond to my questions on that winding but havent gotten time to rewind it the way he said.
I believ there is something to the way he is rewinding them. These also do recharge the battry somewhat when they are running because of the pulsing effect of the way it is wound.
From what i understand it dont take much amperage to run these. So it may help in the overall process of efficiency.
Let me know what you think. Have a great day Curt.
I like some of what UFO posts but I don't agree with it all. The rotor he is winding is almost the same as the posts earlier in the lockridge thread, been there and done that. Diodes on the rotor are not needed although a wave wound rotor is what the lockridge had in my opinion. Google wave wound rotor or armature.
It would seem that the lockridge used the simplified Gray circuit as I call it but we will need to change the geometry to make it work.
All motors need amps multiplied by the number of turns times the duty cycle to get torque, its as simple as that. To get the amps we need low resistance and as we are pulsing against an inductance we need to either lower the inductance or increase the voltage to get the amps. Lowering inductance reduces the recovery so this isn't a good option and higher voltage increases heat loses through resistance so again we have a problem.
The capacitor in the Gray circuit reverses polarity thus giving current flow double that of a battery so this is a way round that problem. ie if the cap is at 12v current flows until the cap discharges and continues to flow until the cap reaches -12v, this is effectively 24v even though we only have 12v
I tried to talk to UFO but he wasn't listening or didn't understand, I don't want to get involved with the name calling so I just kept quiet. erfinder has done a test for me on the Gray principal but I haven't been able to discuss the results with him as yet because I don't have an internet connection. All I know is on his test he got a 30v (about 15%) gain in voltage over the input on the cap but I don't know if he has taken into account that the cap is working on AC while the motor is DC so his working voltage will be double what he is reading.
The only requirement for the wave winding is so that the brushes on the commutator can do the switching, if we mount a second commutator on the motor shaft we can use a standard lap wound rotor.
There is another thing with winding the coils that I have been told about but more on that later.
In summary UFO is where others were at early in the lockridge thread but he has grasped one part of the concept that others failed to grasp while missing another concept. I am not knocking his work, he does some great real experiments but it takes time to understand what is going on before you can come to real factual conclusions. In this and other threads, I have been giving you some of the things he has missed, so you can be one step ahead if you want. Take a look at that Gray circuit I posted, you don't need to rewind the rotor, It's the stator we need to modify and add a second commutator on the motor shaft.
This thread has been a little quiet, sorry for not being able to post much but circumstances dictated that I have to concentrate on other things. I haven't forgot about you and I am still working on it.
This is my reply to a post on http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/12328-advanced-motor-secrets-david-squires.html#post209377 I think it has more relevance here so that is why I have placed it here too. There hasn't been much activity on this thread but it does not mean that the thread or the research is dead.
"I am familiar with finite element analysis although the only ones I have used is for stress and strain and for designing elastimeric seals.
I was thinking more about the electrical circuit and the geometry. I haven't researched Thane Heins, maybe it is time I did. I have managed to use inductive compensation to increase current flow in the motor while also using that current to charge a capacitor which will be used for the next pulse. Recycling it if you will.
If you remember how farmhand turned a universal motor into an induction motor this shows inductive compensation/transformer actions.
Inductive compensation is a transformer effect and if configured correctly can increase current in the motor in the same way a loaded secondary increases current in the primary in a transformer. This increase in current then increases the flux in the armature producing more torque. In a transformer the reverse is true because the secondary is wound over the primary. In the motor all the flux has to pass through the armature before it reaches the secondary thus increasing magnetic flux in the armature.
In a standard motor this compensation coil is opposite the power coil but I am experimenting with placing it somewhere close to 90 degrees. Some have shown in their videos that a shorted coil in this area can cause an acceleration so I am investigating it. A shorted coil is an inductive compensation coil. In their videos they had an open magnetic circuit where I have been using a closed one but now the geometry of the stator has to be taken into account. I believe this may be one of the reasons for the splits in the case of the Lockridge.
This is more appropriate to the lockridge thread so I will also post this there"
Steve and hiwater, please get a copy of the squires video. I think this is of huge importance.
Here is a copy of what I have posted here http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/12328-advanced-motor-secrets-david-squires.html#post209715
"Thanks to the member that sent me the video
You have got to see this video, I have only watched it once so far but I think it answers a lot of questions.
The use of the choke has to be the primary function of the trifilar coil on the lockridge device. I had considered it as a possibility but dismissed it because I didn't really understand how the coils can maintain their current and that the core has to be so big. Its magnificent.
The method of keeping the saturation out of the pole coils may also be a function in the lockridge but I will have to test this. If this is the case, the coils on the poles are the generator coils with the power coils being at 90 degrees. this way there is little if any back emf in the power coils and the coils that are by the moving field are the generator coils and compensation coils in one. Again if I am right the compensation and generated current are in the same direction. If I am right, Bingo we have it.
I will have to watch this many more times to try and understand it and then set up some tests to confirm it assuming I have this right.
Somebody please get back to me on this."
Quote from: mbrownn on 2012.09.25, 13:09:58
Steve and hiwater, please get a copy of the squires video. I think this is of huge importance.
...
Mike -- I went to the thread you linked to, looking for the Squires video. I'm not sure I'm finding it...
Did some searching, came to this:
QuoteAdvanced Motor Secrets
Suggested Retail Value
$147.00
Insane, Giveaway PRICE!
$17
Is this the "squires video"? if not, please provide link to the squires video?
Here is a link to the video download, yes its 17 dollars.
http://www.advancedmotorsecrets.com/
There are many important points in this video. I think we should start a thread on it
Quote from: mbrownn on 2012.09.25, 23:13:57
Here is a link to the video download, yes its 17 dollars.
http://www.advancedmotorsecrets.com/
There are many important points in this video. I think we should start a thread on it
OK -- I'm getting this; lots to learn! Thanks, Mike.
At first there does not seem to be much in this about the lockridge device but it is all relevant and explains methods of reducing BEMF
Extract from http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/12328-advanced-motor-secrets-david-squires.html#post209897
"Squires suggests that the voltage needed to cause current to flow in the motor coil pulses not be provided by the supply. Instead it can be provided by the inductive kickback from a large choke that has a large mass of iron. In the lockridge we have a trifilar coil wound round the motor so it is now obvious to me that this has to be one of the main functions of the trifilar coil.
Not in the video but I believe relevant, is the fact that the motor coils, generator coils and trifilar coils are all wound on the same mass of iron. When an inductor that has an iron core is charged, that energy goes into the iron. If the iron was charged by the motor function, little or no more energy is spent on the iron during the transformer and generator functions therefore these functions should be more efficient than you would normally expect. If it is the choke that charges the iron and that choke is maintained in a charged condition as squires suggests, could it be that the motor function too is more efficient?"
Hi Again MBrownn. From your preception on the squires dvd. Looks like it a must have. We dont have too much of this left to figure out. I read
your posts at Ef before getting back on here. The transformer action is what you were trying to teach me last winter. Funny i never really
really understood that Untill I read your last posts. Just like a regular 60 cycle transformer works. Now i got something to work with. THANKS. I
have worked with the motor coil and gen coils a 90 degrees. But never thought of using the gen coil as the motor coil. i think that was what I un
derstood of the coil in that position. Which should help move the armature ahead with the magnatic feild. like a dog chasing it tail.
I will get the dvd to look at . thanks for keeping us posted as to what is happening.
The DVD is not specific to the Lockridge, in fact he is talking about other types of motor. Once you understand what he is saying about the principals, everything starts to fall into place. I have been talking a lot to erfinder, he has built some really good motors over the years, he prefers to turn the coils through 90 degrees as well as locate them at 90 degrees just like squires talks about but the topography of the delco generator does not really let us do that.
Remember, the coils that we normally power are the output coils in our case. Your rotor may have to be two pole and the coils at 90 degrees are powered by the pulse. By moving the brushes a little we might be able to get the motor to turn but I expect it to be weak. If I am right about my interpretation of the squires video, powering the trifilar coil up will improve the efficiency and the motor will spin better. This is all theory at this point.
The transformer action and generated BEMF should both be in the same direction and is our output.
All this is turning normal motor and generator principals on its head ;D ;D ;D Its the opposite, where have we heard that before?
Everything stated below is to the best of my knowledge and is subject to correction.
Besides J ###### and P #########, what other references (preferably historical) can be found on the Lockridge device?
Without any other info, I guess we have to trust that the story is real without applying any investigative due diligence.
So we have:
An archive photo of post WWII Germany. (red flag, there are thousands of archive photos available to attach to a story)
A fascinating story of a FE generator found by US soldiers in a cleanup operation (anecdotal, nice)
A picture of a generator that was supposedly a replication of the original given to J ######. He has not publicly demonstrated this as a working device.(red flag)
A picture of a notebook given to J ######, the information of which contained therein has not been directly released nor have scans of it's pages. (red flag)
In both cases above, the grantor of the above information to J ###### wishes to remain anonymous. (red flag why? when he could earn much with his own book/DVD sales)
Please help me here, as I am having trouble believing this without outside verification.
I would love to believe, but considering the sources, I am leaning to believe it is a ploy for whatever reason we need not look too far to find O0
Have the above named had success in replicating a machine and demonstrating such? (no!red flag)
Or are they busy selling info of how you or anyone might replicate such a machine? (yes!big red flag)
Trust me, I would love to believe, but my requirement for due diligence pulls me back.
Can anyone provide first hand provable historical data? How far have the originator(s) and distributor(s) of this info come to publicly demonstrating a working device?
Hi ION,
No there is no evidence that I can find other than the sources you quote and I understand your skepticism. In fact I probably would not have begun my research into this device if I had heard the doubts that some credible members have beforehand; however I did start to research and experiment.
Summary of my work
As you say, there is little evidence on the net, not much to go on other than the video by John fettuchini
I have had one email from someone who claims to know someone who owned one but there was no additional information and I can no longer contact that person.
I have carried out thousands of electrical simulations and from that I have concluded that it may be possible as all the simulators I have used produced similar results.
There is a patent that describes the process of how the Lockridge, if real, could have worked. This is the dynomotor patent. The key points here are a motor action, a generator action and a transformer action all on the same iron core so that there is only one iron loss. Yes this is an efficiency improvement and not the source of the power.
I have carried out 100s of experiments and found energy gains in the inductive kickback and resonance however these gains have never been enough to cover the losses. Some say these gains are just improvements in efficiency but I am sure they are gains. If you have ever experimented with charging caps with pulses through an inductor and calculated the total losses you will find that either the inductive kickback or the magnetism is "free" and therefore a gain.
Resonance has only given gains in voltage and heat in my experience, no extra current and therefore no extra power in the motor thus the gain comes out in heat generated in the motor. I have burned up many motors.
Through persistence I have been able come up with circuits that should exploit these gains. and the key point here is that low resistance is a must and Inductive kickback is a must.
The area where I have been struggling is BEMF. To get the motor running with low BEMF ment running it on the part of the power curve where it had to rise to the load and would stall if there was any increase in load. Drops in load would have resulted in a runaway motor and a burn out. Obviously this isn't a satisfactory condition and would at best result in a sweet spot which may produce an "overunity effect" None of my motors were able to run in this condition as the resistance was too high and as a result increasing the voltage would only produce gains in heat :(
One member has been drumming it home to me that I need a chance in geometry to make it work but being stubborn and believing that the lockridge may be real I could not see how that could be done in a standard motor case.
The babcock video confirmed some of my beliefs but still did not have the answer to the BEMF and geometry issue, this is where the Squires video comes in. This video does not really talk about the lockridge but many of the principals apply.
The first is the solution to getting enough current to flow in an inductor. Normally we raise voltage and I was looking at lowering resistance. Raising voltage increases heat, lowering resistance increases size and friction so gong down the route I was following would result in huge motors with only a meager output. The choke coil in the Squires video has the answer, by periodically disconnecting a series mounted choke from the supply, it would produce inductive kickback of a voltage that would overcome the inductance of the motor thus allowing sufficient current to flow. The motors own inductive kickback could then take over giving a gain. From the information given by John fettuchini we know the lockridge had a trifilar coil wrapped round the motor case, he also stated that two of the windings were in series with the motor. This is the choke that squires talks about. Not mentioned is the fact that having the choke wrapped round the motor will saturate the motor to some extent and that this may help the efficiency of the motor function, only my theory.
The second part is the BEMF, according to squires and my friend that has been trying to get me to change the geometry, the most BEMF is generated where the greatest change in concentration of flux is occurring. This is right where we normally mount our coils. By moving our coils away from this point while still keeping them in the magnetic circuit we can reduce the BEMF. He also uses a magnetic shunt to maintain the flux in the power coil but I cannot see how this would have been done in the lockridge yet, if at all. Our answer in the lockridge is to use a 4 pole setup in the case and two pole on the armature but for simplicities sake i will only talk about two field coils.
Imagine a universal motor with two field coils, take one coil off and mount it at 90 degrees, this coil is the power coil and is in series with the armature. the other coil is the generator coil as this is where the BEMF will be generated, it is also the inductive compensation coil which is a transformer action. The only problem we have now, is to get the motor to turn. Maybe by moving the brushes a little a weak motor action can be obtained and maybe the influence of the field created by the trifilar coil has some influence on this, or maybe it is a case of adjusting the position of the power coil either side of the 90 degree position. Remember that this motor will not be self starting so It could be the lag in the current that actually causes the motoring action once it is turning. I don't know but it is time to experiment.
If the power coil was wound round the stator instead of a pole piece the motor would turn but then it would not resemble the lockridge device.
Could it be that the lockridge was put out as a hoax to try and see if someone could figure out how to do it, this is possible ??? but personally I believe there was such a device.
ION, I like people to ask the difficult questions as this helps me to learn. Keep asking those questions and pointing out the obvious. O0
MBrownn. Two pole armature. Clarification. This is still the wave wound armature as was discussed before in this thread. with one pole on each side. In other words just 2 commutator bars making continuity.
Thanks Hiwater.
If we use a four pole wave armature we may have to alter the locations of the coils more, to be honest I don't have this thing totally worked out and this is why we will need to experiment but the principals are much clearer now
From mbrownn:
QuoteION, I like people to ask the difficult questions as this helps me to learn. Keep asking those questions and pointing out the obvious.
Thank you for the gentlemanly response. As stated earlier, I would love to believe and have dreamed that such a device may be possible. (yes I have had actual dreams where I witnessed such a device running).
I have tested motors and dynamotors on the bench and learned much, but apparently not enough to have success.
You make many good points and I will defer to your greater knowledge of the history of the device (I have never seen the video of which you speak...John fettuchini)
Maybe a list of links to
all available information would spur others including myself to do more research.
Thanks again for your kind reply...ION
I am sure you have seen all the videos I have seen, the only additional information I have seen is in threads that JB has taken part in and radio interviews and there isn't much more there.
From what I have learned, my statement about it being a hoax is a distinct possibility because the information in the energy from the vacuum video seems to be incorrect as far as the magnetic field is concerned. It has no similarity to the SG and two north poles together is irrelevant in my opinion. It could be that JB has no better idea as to how it works than us or its a hoax. I am confident that JB knows more than me but the statements in the video that, to me, are obviously wrong have me thinking that it could be a hoax to get us to work out how to make such a device.
The problem with the hoax theory is that, as I learn, the different components of the device seem to be exactly what is needed to overcome various problems. Too much of a coincidence for it to be a cobbled together imaginary device.
It would be nice to have the definitive research library on the lockridge device but the problem is we don't know what should be included and what dismissed. For example Peter's "electric motor secrets" is a good learning tool but is clearly not how the motor worked. It does however get you thinking and makes you draw the conclusion that standard motor theory is an incomplete picture.
So what makes me think this is real?
We know motors require only current flow to make them run and the voltage is only relevant to overcome resistance, power input is irrelevant. Current is not consumed in the motor as we put 1A in and get 1A out. we can collect what passed through the motor and use it again. The maths show us that the power consumption is what is feeding the losses and not the load. With this in mind we can see that with sufficient efficiency a motor that recycles its supply current could indeed produce more power than it consumes.
We know inductive kickback can give us our power back less losses and as we can also collect the input less losses so the total electrical power available to us to use is double what we put in. We know that the inductive kickback also produces a magnetic field that is usable. Nothing new here it is the basis of pulse width modulation. what we haven't been doing is collecting the current and using it again.
The first problem is that when we take a standard DC motor and pulse it we have to increase the applied voltage to make it start to turn at low duty cycles and strangely enough it is this problem that lead me to conclude that the trifilar coil has something to do with this. I assumed it was the impedance matching ability of such a coil that was the reason but now I am coming to the same conclusion but it is doing it in a different way ie how Squires does it in his video.
BEMF is the thing that prevents us from making this happen. I assumed that the motor was run in the first part of its power curve as little BEMF was generated in this condition but the problem is as soon as you introduce a load the motor stalls. By combining a transformer effect in the motor we can overcome the problem, as we increase current draw from the secondary winding of the transformer, it draws more current from the supply. This will in turn increase the current flow in the motor causing the torque to increase with the load as it does in the second half of the power curve of a universal motor. once we have sufficient speed in the motor for it to be useful again BEMF rears its ugly head, Squires has, at last, shown how to mitigate this. It is not done in exactly the same way in the lockridge but the principal is the same. Its a geometry change, we place the power coil in a place where there is a smaller change in flux.
This also leaves us with a problem if we want to make use of both sides of the armature as the magnetic fields in the stator will tend to short. The simplest way to fix this is to split the case of the stator into two halves. This is exactly what we have in the lockridge, its nothing to do with north poles shooting out of the gap, its two separate the fields.
Now we have separated the BEMF from the power coil, by moving its location, we can use it as an output. It is generated power and not a loss. The compensation field is also the transformer output and is available to us and not a loss. These both appear available to us in the same coil and in the same direction.
The input and inductive kickback are both collected, less losses and used to power the next pulse. If it were not for the fact that capacitor losses are around 50% our motor would not need an input at all but unfortunately it does. We take this power from our output but even so we should still have some output in excess. No laws of physics broken.
The interesting thing is that we have not even mounted a generator on our motor so more could be gained here.
Now we have to build it and tune it to demonstrate it.
Could it be that the device was real? Could it be that JB got to this stage and was unable to get it to run and so put out a hoax to see if someone could find the solution? Either or both are possible but I choose to believe the first scenario although the "Both" seems just as likely.
I put out everything I have learned and everything I theorize about, I'm sure it is not all correct but my intentions are honerable. If you see holes in my argument, point them out and ask me about them. If I don't know the problem, I can't fix it.
As a PS I would love to get my hands on that notebook, but even so, John still was unable to get it to work so we know the answer is not there unless it is true that the transistors were the problem.
I tend to agree with you that this is very possible to do.
The main reason is what was said in the Lockridge video. Is that the people who had brought this machine back to the states. Said that the only generator they could find to work was one out of a Gm generator. That particular part was the armature .
From all the different brands i have taken apart most are all wound the same way. Except the GM.
That series of generators has 3 different armatures. All three are wound different, but in function are the same. One has very high speed as a motor with 2.75 amps, this one the windings are wound left on the commutator from the armature slots. The other is wound right from the armature slots, lower speed and consumes about 1.75 amps while motoring. The other the windings off the armature slot come almost straight to the to the comm bars. this consumes anywhere from .24-.87 amps while motoring Average of .33-.41 amps.
Still in the process of elimination on these armatures
From the pictures I have of the old VW generators they almost look like starter armatures. The golf cart starter-generator has these same features .
This maybe why the need for the motor driving coil at 90 degrees. Which they would turn in that position.
Does any one know if the VW generator is a starter too or is there a separate starter on those. With the motor drive coil in the 90 degree position suggests that it could have been a starter-generator.
As you know, I'm interested in what you guys are doing and climbing the learning curve. I came across this vid that seems relevant:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtJt5O4ep14&feature=em-uploademail-new
Quote from: Hiwater on 2012.09.30, 14:48:27
From the pictures I have of the old VW generators they almost look like starter armatures. The golf cart starter-generator has these same features .
This maybe why the need for the motor driving coil at 90 degrees. Which they would turn in that position.
Does any one know if the VW generator is a starter too or is there a separate starter on those. With the motor drive coil in the 90 degree position suggests that it could have been a starter-generator.
The reason for the four pole case is to separate the motoring from the generation while still having it on the same core but I believe it is also for the geometry change of the power coil.
I am not sure of the specs of the original bosch generator as all I have is a delco equivelent for the specs. If I had a delco generator to use, I would use all generator coils to start with because of their greater number of turns. Unfortunately I am using 2 pole universal motors.
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2012.09.30, 15:25:55
As you know, I'm interested in what you guys are doing and climbing the learning curve. I came across this vid that seems relevant:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtJt5O4ep14&feature=em-uploademail-new
I have seen similar videos and although at first it does not seem related, the interesting thing is the geometry of the power coil. It is not located where you would normally put it.
Where I am at with the lockridge is a point where only testing will see if it works because normal theory says it should not run. The next possibility is that it does run but in reverse causing the generation and transformer action to be in opposition as in a normal motor. We will see ;)
I said earlier in this thread that the lockridge does not have a magnetic shunt, I will correct myself. The fact that the splits in the motor case are not all the way across may mean that there is in fact a magnetic shunt, I am not sure about this but it is possible that these remaining areas of iron act as the shunt. It all depends how the flux goes when the power coil is on. If this is the case then the operation may require the switching on and off of the compensation coil with the power coil permanently on. Just another permutation to try. :-\
It would be wise to theorize about the source of the extra energy derived from such a motor/generator.
Since we do not use the mechanical power generated, and if the mechanical rotation is a necessary part of the operation of the device, what special function does the rotation provide?
If it is just BEMF we need to capture and recycle, there are many non rotational devices that can be explored.
What actual function do we expect the rotation to perform that could not be modelled in a non rotating device.
Is there something specific about the rotation e.g. creating a vortex for ambient electrons and capturing them? Or interacting with the earth magnetic field?
Does anyone have a reasonable hypothesis from which to proceed?
The extra energy comes from the inductive kickback and magnetism, these alone are not enough to provide all the power we need so we have to recycle as well. Like the gray motor it combines several methods of getting at overunity all in one device. So there is nothing new in where the energy comes from, its how we use it.
Some of the mechanical power is consumed by BEMF just as in any motor but as the vast majority of this BEMF occurs in a coil that is separate to the power coil we can call it EMF or generated current. Of course these coils coils be made bigger to match the motive power and then there is no need for an external generator at all.
If we do not make use of the motive force of the magnetism we are wasting it, this device combines a transformer with a motor so it is already using non rotational methods. The rotation is the generating function so it is a requirement, all the functions are standard physics and accepted as normal functions it is just that combining them in one device is not done. People do not consider that you can have a transformer that is a motor and generator at the same time and people also do not consider recycling the current, this is why we fail. We have to do all these at the same time.
A four pole delco generator or a golf cart motor would be good candidates to modify to prove the principals then it is a matter of tuning. Do you have one of these? if so I will tell you how to proceed. I am broke so cant do much myself but I am happy to give you the info and direction to make this thing work, or at least try.
Please note that you all are free to post on the 'regular' threads also here. And I invite you to do so!
Now I need your input guys.
Attached is a cad drawing of how I see the magnetic circuit working. I have downloaded the FEMM program that squires talked about and I will try it on there but it may take me a while to figure out how to use it.
Hiwater, this should answer the questions you are asking about the geometry, If I have my left and right hand rules the right way round.
Note that there is two magnetic circuits, these could be powered simultaneously or sequentially. The power coils are at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock, the other two coils are the output and could be wired in series or parallel. As there is the slots in the case I would expect that the power coils are powered sequentially.
There is little if any motive force produced by the interaction between the power coil pole and the rotor, the motive force is present in the interaction between the output coil pole and the rotor. This is why there will be little BEMF in the power coils and a lot in the output coils. The transformer action should also produce an EMF in the output coil in the same direction. The pulse begins in the position shown and continues until the rotor coil is half way across the pole, at this point the inductive kickback takes over and powers the motor across the second half of the face of the pole, then the motor coasts until the rotor coil reaches the same position again in half a revolution. we will have a second pulse at this time provided by the capacitor in the simplified gray circuit I showed you before. This way the input is 1 pulse per rev and the motor pulses twice per rev.
Note the stator is four pole and the rotor is 2 pole. It may be possible to make it run with an unmodified rotor but I doubt it will run well as the geometry is more complex than I show. I believe the geometry is the rotor I built and showed you before with the rotor equally divided by each set of coils. Very simple but prone to arcing. If the commutator has very narrow segments we may need a second set of brushes on the commutator to recover the inductive kickback, does that sound familiar?
I am trying to acquire a golf cart motor to test my theories and will post the results when I have some.
I don't want this put out on the forums yet as I want to have some results to quote. After we have tested this I intend to put the info to a number of other researchers that have helped me for them to test. At that point, if it works then maybe we release it on the forums and youtube etc
What do you think steve?
Ion, as a skeptic hehe, I would appreciate if you would point out any any holes in my theory. I wont be offended at all if you find some, as it could be that I cant see the wood for the trees at the moment and that would not be the firs time that has happened.
Any questions?
OK lets build it.
mbrownn said:
QuoteIon, as a skeptic hehe, I would appreciate if you would point out any any holes in my theory. I wont be offended at all if you find some, as it could be that I cant see the wood for the trees at the moment and that would not be the firs time that has happened.
I don't like to be labelled a skeptic but maybe that's what I am. I do believe many thing may be possible that remain undiscovered. This may be one of them. Only time and exhaustive experimentation will tell.
If I were to experiment in this area, I would take a large diameter soft steel pipe as my armature and have numerous slots milled into it parallel to the circumference. Then I would build coil and magnet assemblies that mount with wing nuts so that I could try many different configurations / positions and tune the unit.
I would make the diameter large so that you can use long solenoids which are far more efficient than the flat coils used in most machines. In those machines the desire to make a small diameter sacrifices efficiency.
You can get some ideas from pictures of turn of the century motors.
The rotor also should be made for some degree of tuning, setting angles.
If the unit has a commutator, I would make it variable over a wide range.
In this manner you will be able to run many experiments in a short time, logging results to see if you are moving closer to the goal of a self runner.
FEMM programs won't allow for pulling in energy from an outside source or other anomaly, but may be useful to map out your designs and see if they agree with the results.
Perhaps there is a business opportunity to market such a kit to the thousands of motor experimenters everywhere.
You can send me a very small royalty. LOL
Quote from: ION on 2012.10.05, 13:34:02
mbrownn said:
I don't like to be labelled a skeptic but maybe that's what I am.
Sorry for making the comment, it was meant as a joke. What I would like is someone not invested in the lockrige device to go over my work and look for errors.
The Idea is to use off the shelf parts as much as possible and modify when required. The truth is, if we can do it, this is much more likely to be accepted than a device that people don't see as practical. Your method would be much better for R&D but that requires more funds and facilities.
Looking at my magnetic circuit, do you think we could get the motor to turn?
Do you think the BEMF would be mitigated in the power coils?
Do you think we will get a transformer action and a generation action in the output coils?
Will they be in the same direction or will they oppose each other?
If you think the answer is yes to the first three and the output is in the same direction, do you think the transformer output will be added to the generator output or be concurrent ie increase voltage or increase current flow?
This last question relates to a possible gain so is important
The two other potential gains in this device are the inductive kickback and recycling of the input and inductive kickback. Inductive kickback is accepted as contributing to motive power in a motor so is accepted as a gain in PWM. No one, to my knowledge, in off the shelf motor design, attempts to recycle the current other than in breaking circuits.
Hello MrBrownn. In reference to the golf cart starter-generator. The 4 brushes are in the brush end frame. Which is removable. They are hard to work with.
The brushes are thick and i believe cover two comm bars. Most sta-gens use thicker brushes to cover two bars for starting torque. The armature would be hard to rewind, because they are built like a regular starter motor.
You might have to find a picture of one of them on the net. The sta-gen of the cub cadet would be a better candidate. but then you need the gen coils out of the golf cart one to put in the cadet one. bucause the of the space needed inside the case . There isnt much room. Then you need a couple motor coils out of a 6 volt starter, one that has 4 coils in because they are narrower. The ones with 2 coils are wider and wont fit. They cover the area where the slots need to be in the case.
This is just to let you knowwhat i have found out during all of these trial and errors. Also the feild poles on the golf cart motor are quite thick. to make them fit in to a delco style case they need to be ground down close to one eight inch for the air gap.
Im not trying to discourage you. just letting you what needs to be taken into consideration. Hope this helps. Go for it.
Thanks for your last posts. going to study them a bit. The power coils I already have in its just a matter of putting in a couple of slots in so i can move them one way or the other.So I can check the effect on motorizing. Then i can Install the gen coils. Its hard to visualize the magnetic field going through the armature as to where exactly the motor coils should be. Your photo will help a lot.
The slots in the case as you refer to the Magnetic shunt almost has to be a the equator (center) of the armature. Separating both sides of the motor-gen coils. Unless the charge coils are over the center if that's where most of the charge is.
Don't know. Only experiments will tell.
Quote from: Hiwater on 2012.10.05, 15:44:44
Hello MrBrownn.
In reference to the golf cart starter-generator. The 4 brushes are in the brush end frame. Which is removable. They are hard to work with.
The brushes are thick and i believe cover two comm bars. Most sta-gens use thicker brushes to cover two bars for starting torque. The armature would be hard to rewind, because they are built like a regular starter motor.
You might have to find a picture of one of them on the net. The sta-gen of the cub cadet would be a better candidate. but then you need the gen coils out of the golf cart one to put in the cadet one. because the of the space needed inside the case . There isn't much room. Then you need a couple motor coils out of a 6 volt starter, one that has 4 coils in because they are narrower. The ones with 2 coils are wider and wont fit. They cover the area where the slots need to be in the case.
This is just to let you know what i have found out during all of these trial and errors. Also the field poles on the golf cart motor are quite thick. to make them fit in to a Delco style case they need to be ground down close to one eight inch for the air gap.
I'm not trying to discourage you. just letting you what needs to be taken into consideration. Hope this helps. Go for it
Your points are well taken, at the moment I don't know what motor I will be getting, it may be a starter/generator or it may be an electric motor from an electric golf cart and it may well be a burned out one as you know I have to rely on peoples generosity to get things.
Quote from: HiwaterThe power coils I already have in its just a matter of putting in a couple of slots in so i can move them one way or the other.So I can check the effect on motorizing. Then i can Install the gen coils. Its hard to visualize the magnetic field going through the armature as to where exactly the motor coils should be. Your photo will help a lot.
The slots in the case as you refer to the Magnetic shunt almost has to be a the equator (center) of the armature. Separating both sides of the motor-gen coils . Unless the charge coils are over the center if that's where most of the charge is .
Don't know. only experiments will tell.
The slots in the case of the Lockridge are to separate the two magnetic circuits but the small amount of metal remaining may be for a magnetic shunt if the two circuits are pulsed sequentially. If this is the case then my electrical circuit will have to be modified. Until one of us can get some tests done this is very speculative but I am trying to get this to work on the FEMM program that Squires refers to ( http://www.femm.info/wiki/Download ) This will make it less speculative if I can work out how to use it. If you want to try it I can send you the DXF file I have made of the motor or you can make your own drawing with A9CAD ( http://a9cad.en.softonic.com/ ) Yes we may have to adjust the coil locations but at the moment I am not sure.
On the armature, a standard two pole may work but I think it will leak flux as the coils do not separate it perfectly in half. I am almost certain that an armature rewind will be needed unless one of the original Delco armatures can be found.
I sent Peter L an email but he has not responded so I am not going to keep him in the loop on my latest info as he seems too business orientated, patents etc. Maybe I will phone him when we have one running as he gave me his number. To be truthful I think he must have worked this out himself and is keeping quiet on this.
I have not yet shared this with Erfinder who is someone I speak to regularly but I think I should as he has just bought a big 4 pole universal motor to test some of my theories. What do you think? This guy is very clued up although his main area of research is on a different type of pulse motor.
So, as of now, the only people I have told are on this thread.
Sure you can share this info. We need some more investigative efforts on this transformer action. The experiments are the only possible way to figure this out.
I did some research on the magnetic shunt, so know i understand its most likely what you speculated to separate the 2 circuits. I am going to try to get some more time today to work on moving those motor coils, to check the effects on motorizing.
In your motor attachment, are the brushes the round circles. The pole shoes in the motors I'm working with cover 3 armature slots, so the gen section would cover about the same. Unless I could use the motor coils out of the golf cart motor, which are narrower, then this would leave more room for wider gen field poles. Will have to check to see what kind of motor action i get with the gold cart coils first.
I have just run the FEMM program on the lockridge. This is with both coils pulsed at the same time.
Note that the flux in the top and bottom coils is close together and will move with the armature, perfect for generation. Note also that the flux in the power coils is wide spaced and will move little therefore BEMF will be lower. Having said that, to minimize the BEMF in the power coil we should mount it on the case where the pink area is. From comparing this with a Universal motor on the same motor the torque will be about half that of a universal motor. If we only pulse one half of the motor there is a bigger shunt effect but the motoring will have lower torque.
I think that the lockridge used the standard motor position so it was not as efficient as it could be.
If your working with motors I think this FEMM software is great, the only problem is the instructions are minimal.
Normally your power coils are in the same position as your brushes but we put them at 90 degrees to the brushes so you will have to swap the wires over. the motor should run under DC so we can test it like that first before we go to pulsing. This will only test the motor torque and generating functions with no transformer action. you could use half wave rectification and an AC supply to get an idea of the transformer action but you will need a scope.
I don't know if you have 2 pole or 4 pole armatures or if it is lap or wave wound. If it is lap wound you will get some flux leakage but the motor might run as the four poles are created with the four brushes. By using two brushes you would get 2 poles. If it is wave wound, we need to know if it is four pole or 2 pole. The brushes would be better if thinner but I would not modify that yet as we are at the testing stage and need to know what we get with standard brushes. I believe the lockridge had a 2 pole wave wound armature.
Hey I like your program. I see the armature has 12 armature slots. can one be done with 14 slots. You can see why there is a need for the slots in the case. Very well done.
The mounting of the of the motor coils must be close to that of magnetic north and not geographical north as in a standard motor. looks good.
I did work with the coils some yesterday. By moving them 90 degrees against rotation it wont rotate. But by slowly bringing them back with rotation it will start to rotate. Finding the best spot for it to start spinning. When i put the generator coil in, It then wouldn't rotate. It would if i would give it a little help. Then it would start rotating.
The odd thing was , when I put in the gen coil in the drag on the armature was quite noticeable..Both ends of the coil weren't connected to anything.
So I connected one end of the gen coil to the output of the motor coil going to the positive brush through a 12 volt bulb. One way it would slow the motor down even more. Reversing the connections then the motor would pick up and spin quite fast with the bulb glowing.
The residual magnetism in the gen coil field pole has quite an effect on the armature. May try to slot the case right behind the gen coil to check the effect.
Your program should make this show up how the flux travels through the armature from this gen coil.
This is really getting Interesting Now . So we can see what is going on.
The armature is a standard Delco version no modifications. There is one positive brush and one negative brush. I believe it is lap wound. All one continuous wire.
Continuity to all commutator bars from one to the other. So I dont know if it would be classified as a 2 pole or what. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean on the armatures ------ Needs specific clarification.
If its a 2 brush then it a 2 pole? ------ Right or wrong.
I can add the other 2 brushes like the Lockridge had, most any time we need. but the armature first is what i need to understand. I tend to forget things in between times working on them.
I do agree the wave wound armature is really prone to sparking. some of the armature modifications i have played with, there is a ball of fire about half the size of a dime coming off the brushes. It eats the commutator up in short order.
Quote from: Hiwater on 2012.10.07, 14:57:28
Hey I like your program.
I see the armature has 12 armature slots. can one be done with 14 slots. You can see why there is a need for the slots in the case. Very well done.
Yes one could be done with 14 slots but it took me a day and a half to do the one with12 slots hehe, Im not fast yet with the CAD program and yes the effect of magnetic separation can be seen.
Quote from: HiwaterThe mounting of the of the motor coils must be close to that of magnetic north and not geographical north as in a standard motor. looks good.
Not sure what you mean.
Quote from: HiwaterI did work with the coils some yesterday. By moving them 90 degrees against rotation it wont rotate. But by slowly bringing them back with rotation it will start to rotate. Finding the best spot for it to start spinning. When i put the generator coil in, It then wouldn't rotate. It would if i would give it a little help. Then it would start rotating.
The odd thing was , when I put in the gen coil in the drag on the armature was quite noticeable..Both ends of the coil weren't connected to anything.
So I connected one end of the gen coil to the output of the motor coil going to the positive brush through a 12 volt bulb. One way it would slow the motor down even more. Reversing the connections then the motor would pick up and spin quite fast with the bulb glowing.
The motor is in magnetic lock with a small torque being created by the flux passing through the generator coils so the motor action will not be powerful and we know the motor would not self start. The load on the generator may cancel the motoring action so the resistance of the load will be critical. You need to have the power and generator coils in position to get the magnetic circuit. By adding coils to the motoring circuit we will effect the motoring action but we are looking to get a balance between motoring and generation.
Quote from: HiwaterThe residual magnetism in the gen coil field pole has quite an effect on the armature. May try to slot the case right behind the gen coil to check the effect.
I used to think residual magnetism played a part in the device but now I am not sure. The length of the slot may also be very important, so if you slot it, don't make the slot too big to start with.
Quote from: Hiwateryour program should make this show up how the flux travels through the armature from this gen coil.
This is really getting Interesting Now . So we can see what is going on.
Yes it is a good program isn't it
Quote from: HiwaterThe armature is a standard Delco version no modifications. There is one positive brush and one negative brush. I believe it is lap wound. All one continuous wire.
Continuity to all commutator bars from one to the other. So I don't know if it would be classified as a 2 pole or what. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean on the armatures ------ Need specific clarification.
If its a 2 brush then it a 2 pole? ------ Right or wrong.
Yes you are exactly right with a lap wound rotor.
Quote from: HiwaterI can add the other 2 brushes like the Lockridge had, most any time we need. but the armature first is what i need to understand. I tend to forget things in between times working on them.
I do agree the wave wound armature is really prone to sparking. some of the armature modifications i have played with, there's a ball of fire about half the size of a dime coming off the brushes. It eats the commutator up in short order.
The two extra brushes in the Lockridge are to collect the inductive kickback from the armature preventing the arcing. If we use an external commutator this collection will be done there using a lap wound armature. If we use a wave wound armature I think it would be necessary to have the extra brushes but we can cross that bridge when we get to it. For now let us stick to the standard motor generator.
With the two power coils and the armature energized in the same direction, experiment with brush placement to see if we can get a small motoring action under DC current. When you do, measure the current and voltage in the generator coils when they are connected to a bulb. Once you have a motoring action adjust the brushes to where you have maximum voltage from the generator coils. This should be close to the optimum position for the brushes.
Then power the motor under half wave rectified AC and measure the voltage and current from the generator coils. It should be more than the DC input gave for the same motor speed. Of course it is likely that the motor speed will be slower and the current input lower with the half wave rectification so you may have to increase the voltage input to make the comparison.
These are important measurements as it could confirm if the generated voltage and current are added to he transformer voltage and current. If we do get a voltage and/or current greater than the input across the field power coils then we have proven the additive effect.
The easiest way to do this is have the power coils and the armature in parallel, then measure the input current and voltage to one of the power field coils. Then measure the voltage and current in the generator coil.
By doing this we are comparing one field coil with one generator coil and from the results we may be able to calculate the ratio of the input field coils to the output field coils and so the number of turns required on the output.
I know this will be exciting once we get the motor to turn but it is important
not to get ahead of ourselves in the testing. Lets take it one step at a time.
First is the motor action
Second the generator action
Third is the transformer action
Next is the commutator and brushes
fifth is the pulse circuit
Sixth is the recovery
seventh is the capacitor size
eighth is the trifilar coil
I don't think we will have overunity until all the stages are completed and tuned, we are doing stage one now, once we have a motor action we move onto stage two and at this point we have to consider the function of the slotted case so be patient as any errors could result in failure.
Can you fellows recommend off-the-shelf high-efficiency motor and generator, for use in some tests I'd like to do? Power at around 100W or so would be fine, I don't need to get into the KW range for this pair for these tests, and I'd like to keep the costs down. Any help would be appreciated.
From your diagram, The one with the black (background). I see that the flux is clockwise in the top half and CCW in the bottom half. this may be normal.
But the reason i bring this up is because, I figured out why my generator was slowing down when i put the gen coil in. It done this on either side. It was because I have 1 CCW coil in the top position and cw motor coil in the bottom position.
When I applied power to the coils it wouldn't turn. By moving it by hand you could feel the cogging in between the gen coil and the other motor coil.
The same way a permanent magnet fields would act in those heater motors for cars. Next step today is try and slot one of those small motors to see what is does, just out of curiosity.
I had taken that generator coil out of the other test gen case. Which didn't cog up and spun free. So I took it apart to see why.
That case had 2 motor coils in that were wound clockwise, which i used 2 leads as a center tap for the input through the coils and then to the positive brush on the armature. Which spins nicely with both gen coils in with the both motor coils.
Which way its really supposed to be , i don't know for sure yet. Just some FYI.
Magnetic north is X amount of degrees from geographical north I think against rotation. You might have to look it up. I believe its where the motor coils would be the most active. Your colored image kind of shows this where the most red area is.
Well I have read the rest of your post, so now the real work comes. I have copied it off so will use it for reference. I will keep you informed. will try to get this thing to turn today
That is what I thought you meant, obviously this is coincidental because the computer does not know which way it is facing and by mirroring the drawing the flux is orientated the other way. There is however, a school of thought that "earth currents" are a source of the extra energy found in the gains found in these devices and we also have to consider that the device is a rotating object mounted on the periphery of a huge rotating magnet called the earth. I don't know if this is a source of the energy but it may be worth looking into when we do the tests. we could change the orientation of the device and see if we get more energy in one orientation than in another. Personally I don't think it will make a difference but we will see.
OK. I took one of those heater motors.
I put a 5/16 slot in between the magnet in side the case. I then turned by hand to check for cogging. By surprise the cogging effect had diminished by I would say 50-60 percent. I connected it to a battery to check amp draw. That had reduced about 5 hundredths of an amp. So I took it apart again and made the slot just as wide as the magnet gap inside the case about 3/4 inch. This reduced the cogging just to about nothing.
The interesting part is that the whole case be comes magnetized , where as without the slots there is only one spot on the out side of the case that has some magnetism to it.
So YOU'RE RIGHT it separates in to 2 different circuits. That is a wealth of information in just those 2 little slots.
The magnetism is stronger at the edge of the slots and quite strong. Like putting a magnet on a piece of iron.
ANYTHING ELSE I SHOULD CHECK FOR while I'm on this small motor. Motor draw no mods was 0.24 Amps. Finished results was 0.16 - 0. 17 amps.
Which motor is this? Do you have a picture ?
Quote from: mbrownn on 2012.10.09, 14:07:32
Which motor is this? do you have a picture
This is just a regular 12 volt heater motor out of a vehicle used as a blower fan , blowing air across the heater core for warm air in side of your car. Size is about 3.5 inches wide x 5 inches long. The same type of motors are on the electric cooling fans for the cars radiator. The type i had on hand was for a Chrysler product. These motors all have magnets inside for the field poles.
No don't have a picture will find one on the net and send you.
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2012.10.08, 14:07:10
Can you fellows recommend off-the-shelf high-efficiency motor and generator, for use in some tests I'd like to do? Power at around 100W or so would be fine, I don't need to get into the KW range for this pair for these tests, and I'd like to keep the costs down. Any help would be appreciated.
OOOps I missed a few posts sorry
If I was in the US I would get hold of one of these motor/generators that hiwater has, or just a four pole generator of that type. Generators tend to be higher efficiency than many motors although I understand these units are quite agricultural. Obviously if you can find a 1940 -1950 delco generator of the type used by Mr Lockridge that would be better.
If I am right, once we start to operate all the functions in the lockridge device the efficiency will rise with the improvement being greater in the least efficient devices however to reach "overunity" I think an efficient device must be better to start with.
If we are going to use a motor, find a four pole unit where you can remove any interpoles if they are fitted, Starter motors and golf cart motors often have very heavy windings and may have to be rewound. My best option here is a second hand golf cart motor that I may be able to buy for scrap price.
The motor is the generator and vice versa so no additional unit is required.
Quote from: Hiwater on 2012.10.09, 14:43:02
This is just a regular 12 volt heater motor out of a vehicle used as a blower fan , blowing air across the heater core for warm air in side of your car. Size is about 3.5 inches wide x 5 inches long. The same type of motors are on the electric cooling fans for the cars radiator. The type i had on hand was for a chrysler product. These motors all have magnets inside for the feild poles.
No dnt have a picture will find one on the net and send you.
Ah ok.
Can you recommend the part number of a delco generator for Steve. I think it would be a four pole generator if there is one.
It may be simpler to take a four pole generator or motor, remove two poles and leave two poles at 90 degrees to each other. Doing this would mean there is no need to split the case for the tests
Quote from: mbrownn on 2012.10.09, 15:13:40
It may be simpler to take a four pole generator or motor, remove two poles and leave two poles at 90 degrees to each other. Doing this would mean there is no need to split the case for the tests
Most of these generators can be ordered or gotten fro a salvage yard. They are either 6 or 12 volt Delco Generators. the 12 volts say 12 volts on the tag and the tags are usually red and silver. The 6 volts have a black tag and are not marked 6 volt; There are about a 100 different Delco numbers on these generators. There are 2 lengths of cases. The longer one is the one you need its 7 inches. The short case is 6 in. long.
There is plenty of them out there used or new. eBay has a lot of them. The shipping gets expensive though.
I've been looking for a 4 pole Delco generator. there might have been some on the older trucks. Either 6-12 volt. Older heavy equipment may have some on. Old military equipment also. those from military surplus might be 24 volts.
The best place would be a salvage yard. Then you can get as many as you want in case any of the armatures are bad.
Good information, what type of vehicle are they normally found on? Cars usually have an alternator which is of no use to us. There are almost no tractors here in the Philippines, that is what a carabao (water buffalo) is for.
Quote from: mbrownn on 2012.10.10, 06:01:44
Good information, what type of vehicle are they normally found on? Cars usually have an alternator which is of no use to us. There are almost no tractors here in the Philippines, that is what a carabao (water buffalo) is for.
Alternators came out , around the mid 60s, I believe. Every one was driving at night with dim lights until the alternator came out. THE DELCO GENERATORS, were on the General Motors Division vehicles. Most of the tractor did have generators at that time. many different makes. The ones i am accustomed to, that had Delcos on were the shorter case ones.
There were some Autolite, Prestolite that had about the same style of gen on. Most of those armatures will fit the stock Delco. Before the negative ground came out most were on the opposite side of the engine because were wound different. (CCW). The reason I put 1 CW - 1 CCW pole in the one gen I'm working on.
As far back as I can remember late 40s- early to mid 60s vehicle had the style were looking for.
The earlier trucks did have a much bigger generator on, Like you were talking a bout a 4 pole because rpm wasn't that fast. Like on the cars that have higher rpm which are the 2 pole. Like gen heads 1800 rpm and 2 pole 3600 rpm.
Hope this helps. The 4 pole one would be ideal if one could be found. More area inside to work with not so cramped. The motor coils would be ok, Then you could put in wider generator coils in. Then the slots would be easier to position, where they are needed.
I don't think there is much chance of finding anything like that here so I will continue to look for a golf cart motor.
The person who came up with the Lockridge must of had an IQ of 500. I did get a chance to work with the motor coils some today. For some reason I can get one to work. But then when I put the other one in the opposite side. It throws off the first one i put in.
So I took everything out and put in a little narrower motor coils. Which seems to help some. Right now I am still in the process of putting the coils in at a little less than 90 degrees. Just so it just rotates. I done each one by itself to get the right position. So I can connect them together tomorrow to see what happens.
I almost believe those slots in the case have to be in there when positioning the motor coils. But it hard to tell where to put them until the motor coils are in the and working properly. When both motor coils are in, they have a different effect than just one installed. That why each one has to be done separate. Either the magnetism in the field pole or the armature changes the effect when both motor coils are in. Will try to get some more done on it tomorrow.
You could try it with just two field coils, one in the normal position which is the output coil and one in the 90 degree position which is the power coil. The power coil can be wired in parallel with the armature and when powered up should lock the motor, as they are in attraction. when you put a low resistance load on the output coil there should be a little movement of a few degrees under DC. The generator causes the motoring action. With two coils there would be no need for the splits in the case.
If we have this it partially proves the concept.
Steve, If you are looking to experiment with a Lockridge type device and are prepared to do some rewinding I think we could prove a lot of the principals with a four pole car starter motor. I do not think it will be efficient enough to make self running but we may have a chance at getting a COP of greater than one if everything checks out ok.
In the absence of being able to get anything better this is what I will use.
Quote from: mbrownn on 2012.10.14, 12:59:35
Steve, If you are looking to experiment with a Lockridge type device and are prepared to do some rewinding I think we could prove a lot of the principals with a four pole car starter motor. I do not think it will be efficient enough to make self running but we may have a chance at getting a COP of greater than one if everything checks out ok.
In the absence of being able to get anything better this is what I will use.
My apologies if I'm stepping here. I've worked withe the starters mostly GM 12 volt. You can run these on 2 coils , but they have to be at 90 degrees. They wont work at using them at 180 degrees, because of the way the armature is wound. there is quite a lot of vibration because of the bushings. So i put a bearing on each end. Which makes them spin up nicely. I also put a flywheel on the starter drive end which works even better. there's a lot of power there to get it up to speed. It will coast for close to 2 minutes. The other i have with the flywheel coasts for 2 min 43 seconds.
The weird part is when the flywheel gets to a certain speed all goes quiet around the machine. it can be felt out away from the machine about one and a half feet. It not from vibration being removed either, Because i balanced the flywheel with the rest of the machine.If i keep the power on it comes out of that mode. So now and then i run it trying to regulate the power to keep in that quiet zone trying to figure what going on. it really is interesting to run when it does that. It just goes quiet you cant hardly hear the motor running the flywheel.
I've been trying to find a generator armature to fit in ti the starter case but haven't yet. This is a good area to experiment with. I believe it has a lot of merit and can tell us a lot of the coil about the coils and their positioning.
Quote from: Hiwater on 2012.10.14, 14:56:20
Ive worked withe the starters mostly GM 12 volt. You can run these on 2 coils , but they have to be at 90 degrees. They wont work at using them at 180 degrees, because of the way the armature is wound.
Very interesting, what is the part number of this starter?
Quote from: mbrownn on 2012.10.14, 22:14:03
Very interesting, what is the part number of this starter?
These starters are relatively the same all the way back to the 1950s. at least two different armature sizes. lighter duty for the 6 cylinder and heavier duty for the V8s. One has thicker field windings compared to the other one.
One has two input wires to the field coils, the other has only one. The one with the 2 input wires, one wire goes to 2 field poles and the other wire goes to the other two with the positive brush wires coming off between the (center)the sets of coils.
The other starter, has one input wire and is series wound, with the positive brushes coming off the end coil.
I would recommend the one with the two input wires. The ones I have are all rebuilt and have had a paper stuck to the case with the part no. on.
So i couldn't get a part number for you.most of the tags are gone or numbers unreadable. Ill call tomorrow and get you a part number and let you know.
Thanks, once I know which it is I can look at the specs and see how suitable it is
I sent you a PM on a link. I have a couple of numbers here. i believe these are the original numbers. (not rebuilt)
The 2 wire 1108769----1H-----17
The one wire 1107274---3----D---29 The first seven numbers are the most important ones. When they are rebuilt they take any case and put in there what they need and then put there own part number on it. Most of these starters fit up to late 80s and early 90s.
Until they started putting smaller ones on and some with magnets inside. But the earlier ones are pretty much the same except the mounting bracket.
Quote from: Hiwater on 2012.10.15, 16:05:36
I sent you a PM on a link. I have a couple of numbers here. i believe these are the original numbers.
Thanks for the info, from what I can tell they are fairly standard starters and there does not seem to be anything special about the windings in them. With one of these we would have to rewind all the coils but it isn't too difficult with the stator as the windings are removable. The problem with starters is that the windings are too heavy and have too small an inductance to make recovery successful. The other problem is that the brushes and bearings are so heavy duty that the friction is high, of course all this can be modified but it will take a little effort.
As the original Lockridge copy had #18 wire on the trifilar coil, I would use the same size for the field coils. Basically all we have to do is weigh one of the field windings and use the same weight of #18 wire for the power field windings and maybe the output windings just for experimental purposes.
I understand from Tesla that if we keep the weight of copper the same in all the windings of a transformer that they will interact more efficiently. This is something we tend not to do today.
For testing purposes we could try to use the standard armature winding but at some stage this too will have to be rewound. Most starters that I have looked at have an odd number of slots on the armature, we would prefer the number to be even, otherwise it will be out of balance the way we need to wind it but for now we will concentrate on the field windings.
From what i learned today. There is one heck of a transformer action. if I was doing it right. The other day when i was testing the coils, my battery was just about dead.
When using the rotary transformer with 2 diodes to the motor coil and spinning about 4-500 rpms. The generator coil will pull close to 20 amps. this with a heater motor connected across the 2 wires of the generator coil at about 39 volts.
It heats up pretty fast because it pulls 25 amps on the motor coil that way. This is just some quick tests i did this evening after i found out the battery needed charging with the motor coil in the stock position and the gen coil next to it in the direction of rotation.
So tomorrow I will put the motor coil at 90 degrees and put in the gen coil to see how that compares to what I did today. I want to see if the more load i put on the gen coil if the input amps go up. Its been a tough day.
If you are using the setup I am suggesting, drawing more from the output will increase the input but once a certain point is reached the voltage on the output will drop.
It would be nice if you could post a picture so I could see.
I am having an interesting discussion with sucahyo on http://imhotepslabs.freeforums.org/post2329.html#p2329 I will copy and paste it here
Quotembrown
This device should, in theory, be able to run with the battery removed or replaced with another capacitor.
The gains are that of the inductive kickback supplying current flow in the motor and therefore additional torque just as in a motor run on PWM. Reusing/recycling the input and inductive kickback as in the Gray motor and the addition of the transformer output with the generated output (if this does indeed happen). This last part is in the patent for the dynomotor but as yet remains undocumented as far as proof. everything else is "normal/standard" electrical principals. The combination of all three is unique.
The efficiency improvements are the use of only one component to carry out all operations whereas we would normally use three. therefore there is only one Iron loss and not three, one bearing loss and not two and one heat loss and not three. BEMF is mitigated by moving it to the output coils by making a geometry change, again it is something that is known about but not applied to motors for some reason.
The method of translating the input voltage is unique and I will explain that in detail when the time comes but basically it is the fact that we charge a choke with a low power input, then disconnect it from the supply and use its inductive kickback to overcome the inductance of the motor. The energy in joules is conserved but the power in watts is magnified. I haven't explained it well but again it is standard accepted technology although not used in powering motors.
Geometry is the key to making all the functions work in unison instead of opposing each other.
Quotesucahyo
Yes, agree that geometry is important.. The inductive kick back may leak out some zero point energy. This leak need attention to geometry.
I think working at the right amperage is important too.
I mention special capacitor design because Bedini mention that it may be required to obtain self sustaining run.
Keep in mind that copper without current act as drag, but not as much as copper with opposite current.
Good luck.
Quotembrown
Most detractors of these types of devices do not accept that there may be an energy input from another source and their eyes glaze over if you mention zero point. They do accept inductive kickback, although they cannot explain where the energy in it comes from, so I use the term they are used to without need to explain it.
Current is vital to motor operations and it is proven that this motoring does not consume current, but I don't make a big point of it because if the detractors thought about it they would deny it.
The type of capacitor may well be important but I am not at a stage to determine anything about it yet.
Yes, copper does cause some drag, especially with big wire sizes. Hopefully we will have sufficient power in out motor to make this insignificant.
Quotesucahyo
Agree.
If you read harold aspden work, he mention that with ordinary science, we can get gain by utilizing the spesific saturation frame from the coil. We turn off the current before the coil reaching saturation, we turn on the coil before the saturation reach zero. pulse On duration matter the most, not the frequency. This is why core with slow saturation work better. Not sure how to detect saturation, maybe with scope.
In one of his pdf, he mention that the energy stored in coil exceed conventional wisdom. The key for this is layered iron and organic core. More layer is better.
Harold aspden is the consultant of Robert Adam, which obtain motor/circuit that produce heat exceeding normal and get electricity gain by utilizing the heat. Robert report that the heat is not originated from the transistor but manifest around it or something.
QuoteMbrownn
Interesting, this is similar to what I am starting to test.
If you take two coils of identical inductance and resistance but one is physically larger than the other with a bigger iron core. the larger inductor has the largest amount of energy stored. This is talked about in the new Squires video.
If you are using an inductor to supply pulses into another coil from its inductive kickback, it has to contain a larger mass of iron than the second inductor. Also in this situation it is better to keep the first inductor saturated as there will be lower resistance. the first inductor will then provide sufficient voltage from its inductive kickback, at no extra cost, to overcome the secondary inductance and maintain the current. Energy is conserved but power is not, there is a gain in the power of the pulse.
So we can have 12v at 10A powering the first coil, keeping it in saturation. By periodically disconnecting it from the supply it can then give any voltage that may be required to maintain a 10A current in the the second inductor for a limited period.
Input 12 10A =120w
Output 120v 10A = 1200w
The duration of the first is 100% and the duration of the second is 10% so energy is conserved despite a power gain of 10x
As a motor only requires current we can now put 10A pulses into a motor from a 12v supply where normally we would need to pulse it with 120v to get 10 amps
If we now increase the amount of iron in the core by 10 times a saturated inductor could supply 1200W in theory. this needs to be tested because my instinct tells me it cannot.
Quotesucahyo
How do you came into 120V and 10A at the same time?
I realize that if we measure it separately, my radiant charger output is 1000V and 200mili Amp. But if I measure it together on 1 ohm resistor it would be 0.5V 200mA or something.
Quotembrownn
We run 12v at 10A through a large coil until the core saturates then disconnect it from the supply. The inductive kickback is now fed into the motor, the inductive kickback will raise its voltage until it can flow 10a through the motor, regardless of impedance, for an instant and discharge the coil. So its 12v10amps into the choke coil and maybe 120v10A out. Energy is conserved but power isn't. The power in watts is x10 but the joules remain the same
An inductor will act like an infinite voltage source to try and produce a 10 amp flow until the input energy has been consumed, it is just like a capacitor will act like an infinite current source on a zero ohm resistance until it is discharged.
Quotesucahyo
I see. 12V10amps in 10 second converted into 120V10Amp in 1 second?
Quotembrownn
Yes, energy is conserved but power is multiplied.
Ok you will say that there is no gain in energy and you are correct but look at it like this.
Input 12v at 1 A continuous. output 24v at 1A 50% duty cycle and feed that into a motor in pulses. The motor then has its own inductive kickback equal to the input power less losses. We are now pulsing our motor with 24w pulses and getting 24w inductive kickback. As long as we have current in the motor we have power, that is 24w continuous from a 12w input to the primary coil. In theory you could add more stages in a cascade to continue the gain.
This can only work if we pulse a coil with the inductive kickback from another coil. Does this sound like Tesla? Is that how the magnifying transmitter worked? I don't know but the theory is sound. Energy is conserved in the first coil as it is in the motor but power is not, It is multiplied. The energy in the whole system is also multiplied
This is the function of the trifilar coil on the lockridge.
Now collect the output current and power from the motor in a capacitor and use it to power the next motor pulse. In this case we can now have a 25% duty cycle on the trifilar coil giving 48w pulses to the motor with a 48w recovery that can be used again. If there were no losses this would be a COP of 4.
Now if we add the compensation/transformer function on the motor coils we have doubled it again to a potential cop of 8. Even with a typical universal motor efficiency of 35% we could be into overunity.
I know this is a lot to take in so I am happy to explain it over and over if we need to.
This Is a key part of the lockridge that I have not talked about on other forums.
The simplest way to prove this is to charge a capacitor through an inductor and diode all in series. If you use a 12v supply and your coil and capacitor are matched you will have nearly 24v in the capacitor after the charge. In fact any increase in voltage above the source proves the coil is adding to the system.
Lots to digest on that last post. Didn't get anything done today. Did find some longer field poles for the motor coils. I'm trying to get them as long as the armature laminations. Cant find any longer ones for the 2 gen coils. The more surface area on the field pole, the better the induction would be I think.
I did read thru your last post, quite a lot to think over. But I believe its coming together.
What gives the magnetism is ampere turns, the size of the core determines the saturation of the iron based on the ampere turns. the surface area of the poles effects how much saturation there is plus the angle that the torque can act over.
For testing, we won't be driving the cores to saturation so the different size of core wont make a huge difference, its just the number of turns that we are more concerned with. When we begin the tuning I believe it will be important.
Im sure you can do the test I need with what you have. Put the armature and field coil in paralel then measure the amps and volts across it when it is running. The motor wont run unless there is a load on the output. then measure the volts and amps on the output. If the power field coil and the output has the same number of turns, the voltage on the output should be the same as the input less the voltage drop created by the ohmic resistance. If it is higher It proves that the transformer action and generator action is additive.
Your power supply wants to be a half wave rectified AC so that we get the transformer action. We will do the trifilar coil thing later, I just need to know if there is an addition of the two types of output. If the motor does not turn we will only have the transformer output.
Remember we are comparing the input field coil with the output field coil. The armature wants to be attracting the input field coil and in the position of magnetic lock, this is the opposite to what you would normally do. The output coil will be where you would normally have the power coil. Remove the two other coils as it makes it simpler to do.
In your last post you said to put the motor coil in parallel with the armature. If I put one end of the motor coil to the positive brush and the other end to ground its a DEAD SHORT. If I put in series with the positive brush and the armature, Then it will work. Maybe explain this better to me. THANKS
But have run into a problem of having the motor coils the same size and number of winds. With the main motor coil at 90 degrees When putting in 2 coils the same it wont rotate one has to be cw and the other needs to be CCW wound. Must be because of the spin above and below the neutral point or equator.
With the motor coil at 90 degrees and the other coil in the stock position, there's no transformer action. The 90 degree motor coil as I move it closer to the positive brush i start to get some transformer action, but then i have to move the gen coil over. But the one to one ratio don't do anything. Wont even raise the needle on the volt meter.
I have a sneaking suspicion one has to be on each side of the positive brush line thru the armature. The other day when I had good transformer action i had the motor coil in the stock position and the gen coil ahead of that with rotation Which had a real good transformer action.
One thing i did do today when I had the m-coil in at 90 degrees and the other coil in and they wouldn't rotate i slotted the case between the m-g coils then I could get it to rotate from the gen coil but it was CCW that how i figured out why you need that one wound the other way. Will recheck this tomorrow. Also will continue moving the motor coil towards the brush and the gen coil away from the brush to see the effects.
Well this is what i did today, going to keep trying. let me know about that coil being in parallel to the armature. so that i can understand it better.
THANKS.
Are you using generator coils or motor coils, I suggest generator coils as these will have similar size wire to the armature (I think). yes it will draw a lot of amps and if these are starter coils it will be too much. You can put them in series with the armature but you need to measure the voltage across the stator coil as we are going to compare it with the output coil. Both the motor and the generator coils want to be the same so we get a direct comparison for the test.
It does not surprise me that it does not spin as the motor is in magnetic lock. We may have to narrow the shoe of the generator coil or move it closer to the motor coil to make it spin but before that we will try moving the position of the brushes to cause the rotation. This is a trial and error experiment but once we have the flux bending like it does in the FEM simulation we should have torque even though the power coil is directly in line with the armature.
You need AC, half wave rectified AC or pulsed DC to get a transformer action, NOT DC. If your still not getting it, check you have the polarity of the armature right because if it is bucking it will cancel it out.
Are you using two coil shoes in the stator or 4. If you have all four in the magnetic circuit the effect will be shorted unless the case is split. That is why I suggested 2 at this point.
Look at the FEMM simulation, Imagine you have taken the lower and right hand shoes off so that the flux has to pass through the generator coil.
If you slotted the case between the motor coil and the generator coil in the same magnetic that is wrong but maybe it started to turn because it forced the flux through 270 degrees of the armature case instead of 90.
Keep experimenting that is how you learn.
It does not matter if the motor is clockwise or counter clockwise, you can reverse polarity to change that. The fact you got a movement with the armature in magnetic lock is the first thing I am looking for, so this is great news
Quote from: sucahyo
Ok.
Have you ever try to store the inductive kickback in capacitor and see how large the capacitor need to be to fully capture the inductive kickback?
I mean, would 100uF can capture inductive kickback as good as 10000uF? What about voltage? would 25V rating can capture inductive kickback as good as 2000V rating?
How do you see motor need continuous current, isn't motor naturally need pulsed current?
Yes many times.
A small capacitor will result in a high voltage and a large capacitor a low voltage, the joules are the same being equal to the supply less Ohmic, capacitive and iron losses using a Bedini style collection. Using Gray style collection we have what appears to be no capacitive losses but this is not true. Of course the capacitive losses are about 50% as normal but the difference is we are collecting the input current and the inductive kickback.
With a battery coil and capacitor in series the cap charges to the voltage of the supply and them oscillates a little.
With a battery DIODE coil and capacitor in series the cap jumps well above the supply voltage. it charges up to the supply voltage and then the supply can no longer cause current to flow, this is when the inductor takes over and pushes the current out until an equal number of joules to what the supply gave is expelled from the coil. Double the amount of joules enters the cap but half is lost, the result being a capture rate equal to the supply. Of course in this case the voltage in the cap is higher than the source. (not sure I have explained it well) The net result is there is the same number of joules in the cap as there was in the pulse that charged it so that it appears that there was no loss.
While this was going on, if the coil was a motor, we had the current from the source and the current from the inductive kickback to power our motor. A 35% efficient motor appears to be 70% efficient and a 45% efficient motor appears to be 90%. This is exactly what is happening in PWM on motors we use today so remember when they quote a motor as 90% efficient, it is actually 45% efficient (under 50% duty cycle conditions)
Now remember we have ended up with the same amount of energy available in our cap as we used to pulse the motor with in the first place. We can now use this to pulse the motor for a second time. If a 100% efficient motor was used we would have 200% after the first pulse cycle and 400% after the second. COP of 4 :o
Because our motors and circuits are very inefficient we really end up with a COP of 1.4 or less which when coupled to a standard efficiency generator, with its own losses, results in an output of less than what is required to run the motor.
Now add this circuit to the one I talked about before. Now the theoretical COP could power the motor, the only thing is we have not done it yet and we build and wire up our motors wrong.
Over the last few posts I have told you 2/3rds of what the Lockridge is and how it does it. As I said, I have not put all this on the other forums as yet and don't intend to until I have something close to working and can prove the concept. 95% of what I know is on the forums but I need to prove it. If you wish to join me in building such a device and testing it, I will be happy to share it with you. There is a lot of tests to do and concepts to prove before we have it working but I am convinced that I am very close now.
All you need is a four pole universal motor or generator.
I was using motor coils. I do have 2 gen coils that are the same. Those I will work with today. trying to position those to get the effect we are looking for.
Yes I was using 1/2 ac rectified with the variable transformer. I was using DC to rotate trying to get the coils in position to make sure it would spin be fore i used the AC. The generator hums like a regular transformer. But the coils need to be in the right position to get the right effect. If its right on 90 degrees. it don't work properly. So that's what I have to do today is work with positioning the coil ,now that i know not to use the motor coils. Spike at 40 amps before it kicks the breaker.
I'm just using the 2 coils as you suggested. ----------- Slotting the case where i did was to prove a fact to myself. That it would come out of magnetic lock and that the direction of the winding and rotation above and below the equator is different. So that in itself was quite interesting. Just to to prove to myself.
So i did learn a lot by doing what I did. Some of the best thing learned while working with this is from the BIG mistakes that I have done. these are for a reason. So even with the mistakes We are moving forward. Thanks for your patience Curt.
Something of interest US pat no. 3325712 i found in my files yesterday.
The motor power coil wants to be right on 90 degrees but it is the generator coil shoe that gives the torque. Try to take note of the angle of adjustment.
Mistakes are always what we learn the most from.
Yes an interesting patent
I worked with the 2 coils this afternoon. These 2 coils are the same. They came out of a golf cart starter generator.I had these all over the place in the starter case today.. The Gen coil 1 (in motor position 90 degrees) The Gen coil 2 in stock position under the positive brush. This close to the best position.---------But at 50 volts G1 input power--G2 is only 15-16.6 volts ac. This is almost the same where ever i put the coils in at. Except when I put G1 in series with the armature, The voltage props down to 11.6 volts ac on G2 coil.
So I put in the regular motor coil in series with the armature (M1) at 20 volts ac I get 40 volts on GEN COIL1. So the voltage is doubled from M1 to G1. This is good transformer action. But it has to be in series with the armature. I moved them around a little and i lost the voltage increase. So i called it a day.
The motor coil acts like the primary with less wind and G1 acts like the secondary. So tomorrow sometime I'm going to put M1 back at 90 degrees and the G1 back under the brush to get this figured out. So I can get it to rotate under load.
Note---using the 2 gen coils doesn't show very good trafo action. Too much on the pri and not enough on the sec. Average 34 volts difference in induction. I thought it maybe almost 1-1 but not even close. I run 12 different tests using those 2 gen coils. They were almost the same. I EVEN CHANGED ARMATURES, then the voltage dropped a little.
I'm going to try again tomorrow.
ANGLE OF ADJUSTMENT ?????????
How many degrees away from the 0 degree position for the generator coil
Quote from: Hiwater on 2012.10.19, 02:36:54
I worked with the 2 coils this afternoon. These 2 coils are the same. They came out of a golf cart starter generator.I had these all over the place in the starter case today.. The Gen coil 1 (in motor position 90 degrees) The Gen coil 2 in stock position under the positive brush. This close to the best position.---------But at 50 volts G1 input power--G2 is only 15-16.6 volts ac. This is almost the same where ever i put the coils in at. Except when I put G1 in series with the armature, The voltage props down to 11.6 volts ac on G2 coil.
What is the motor speed? Obviously the faster it turns the more the generation.
Quote from: Hiwater on 2012.10.19, 02:36:54
So I put in the regular motor coil in series with the armature (M1) at 20 volts ac I get 40 volts on GEN COIL1. So the voltage is doubled from m1 to G1.This is good transformer action. But it has to be in series with the armature. I moved them around a little and i lost the voltage increase. So i called it a day.
The motor coil acts like the primary with less wind and g1 acts like the secondary. So tomorrow sometime im going to put m1 back at 90 degrees and the g1 back under the brush to get this figured out. So I can get it to rotate under load.
Note---using the 2 gen coils doesnt show very good trafo action. Too much on the pri and not enough on the sec. Average 34 volts difference in induction. I thought it maybe almost 1-1 but not even close. I run 12 different tests using those 2 gen coils. Tey were almost the same. I EVEN CHANGED ARMATURES, then the voltage dropped a little.
Im going to try again tomorrow.
You are getting the idea, the motor field coil and armature coil is the primary. the generator coil is the secondary. If all the coils were the same number of turns and there were no losses then the generator coil would show half the voltage of the input if the armature and motor coils are in series. I believe that if they were in parallel, the voltage would be almost the same but I am not sure as there will be transformer interactions between the motor coils and the armature.
Once we have the generator coil in the position that applies a torque things may change in the transformer action but now we will have a generation action too. Hopefully these actions wont oppose each other.
What is the gap between the field coils and the armature? the smaller this is the better the transformer action.
Quote from: mbrownn on 2012.10.19, 05:28:51
How many degrees away from the 0 degree position for the generator coil
From my preliminary tests about 20 degrees. Will try to work with that today to pinpoint the closest possible position
The motor speed is quite fast. Never checked to be exactly sure. there's more arcing on the negative brush, that I noticed.
I thought of a couple of things last night to try again with the gen coils. so will try those today. I was hoping for a better reaction from those coils.
In series with the armature the voltage does drop some. will recheck this today to rule it out. Going to recheck it in parallel with the armature again with a smaller air gap to see what changes. i was contemplating that yesterday, but never done it. I have the shims already cut all I need to do is put them in.
From other tests for just motorizing, the closer the air gap the more amperage it took to motorize. But using it as induction may make quite a difference.
I await your results :)
The arcing should reduce when you draw a load off the generator coil. The transformer action in a universal motor is known as inductive compensation and this compensation should reduce the arcing
Quote from: sucahyo
Unfortunately I don't have universal motor that I can use. I have a lot of harddisk motor though.
How big is the capacitor required to capture the inductive feedback of 12V source and 1 ohm coil?
"With a battery coil and capacitor in series", I don't understand.
Can you explain it using diagram in the link bellow?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck–boost_converter
Will you use 12Amp diode or something?
I cant get the link to open, I think they are installing the internet kill switch here.
This circuit shows how we use the capacitor to maximum effect with a coil on a motor. It is a simplified Gray circuit (http://www.falstad.com/circuit/#%24+1+5.0E-6+1.3241202019156522+38+5.0+50%0A178+512+352+544+352+0+2+2.0E-9+3.4E-321+0.05+1000000.0+0.02+20.0%0Av+512+384+512+400+0+2+100.0+5.0+5.0+0.0+0.5%0Al+320+304+320+352+0+0.01+3.132926126721187%0Ar+512+304+320+304+0+0.25%0Av+512+352+320+352+0+0+40.0+11.0+0.0+0.0+0.5%0Av+832+448+832+288+0+0+40.0+30.0+0.0+0.0+0.5%0Ac+640+336+640+448+0+1.0E-5+232.4766546761393%0Ad+544+336+640+336+1+0.805904783%0Ad+832+288+544+288+1+0.805904783%0Aw+640+320+640+336+0%0Aw+544+368+544+448+0%0Aw+544+448+640+448+0%0Ad+640+320+544+320+1+0.805904783%0Ar+640+448+832+448+0+0.2%0Ao+5+16+1+291+299.3155353253689+9.765625E-55+0+-1%0Ao+2+16+0+35+320.0+12.8+1+-1%0Ao+2+16+1+291+1197.2621413014756+9.765625E-55+1+-1%0Ao+6+16+0+291+320.0+12.8+2+-1%0Ao+6+16+1+291+1280.0+9.765625E-5+2+-1%0A).
The inductor represents our Lockridge motor coils, the relay represents a commutator. I don't have the trifilar, transformer and generator circuits in this simplified diagram because I want to prove all these before I release a full circuit.
You can see how the energy from the first pulse is used to power the second. you can also see that the power and voltage are multiplied but the energy in joules remains the same. Recycling the energy in this fashion gives a theoretical COP of 2, the inductive kickback is also 2 which gives us a theoretical 4. Capacitive losses are 50% bringing it down to 2 and using a typical universal motor efficiency of 35% we only have a real COP of 0.7. The rest turns into heat, have you ever noticed how much heat is produced in universal motors.
This is why with this circuit alone you wont get overunity with a motor of less than a true 50% efficiency.
The capacitor size is determined by the inductance of the coils and the supply voltage.[/quote]
Quote from: sucahyo
The link seems to be trimmed by freeforum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck–boost_converter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck%E2%80%93boost_converter)
Thanks for the diagram.
Will you use that 100 ohm resistor between source and coil?
Also from that picture, I think the equation of voltage would be:
left over voltage in coil = capacitor + output battery.
So the voltage of capacitor may not reach source voltage.
I think waste of energy happen because the coil is over saturated. But I am not sure if there is a way to prevent coil over saturation. Also if the motor will properly run if we do that. I think the coil should need to be oversaturated for a while to repel the magnet to make the motor turn, this waste energy.
Suppose oversaturation is reached within 1 ON time. the motor need 10 ON to run but we can only get inductive kickback equal to 1 ON. We don't get return energy from the rest 9 ON because that energy is wasted as heat.
We can get COP 2 only if we can make the motor run without oversaturating the coil.
In oversaturation condition, the coil is full and can no longer store more energy. Energy sent to the coil after the coil reach oversaturation will not return.
Sorry I should have explained the diagram. Everything to the left of the relay is the 12v motor, the inductance of 10mH, Ohmic resistance of the coil and BEMF. the resistor to the right of the coil is the internal resistance of the battery. There is no 100 Ohm resistor.
Agreed but there will be as many joules of energy in the capacitor as was supplied by the pulse from the battery because if the top up from the inductive kickback.
Saturation is a problem but with a commutated motor they accelerate until a balance is reached, the pulses getting shorter and shorter until the motor is at an optimum preventing oversaturation. The next thing is size, the motor produces less power in comparison to what we normally expect from a motor of the same size and uses less power too.
I'm giving away another secret now, ITS AN ATTRACTION MOTOR. We want to keep all the flux trapped in the motor circuit so as not to loose anything, attraction is the way to do this. Everything you normally do with a motor, we do the opposite.
The trifilar coil will be kept in saturation, this is best explained in the Squires video.
We have the t-action. From many trial and errors. it is confirmed. I have a couple of things to try on this later today. i want to work out just how close these coils have to be for this to happen and check a few things on the air gap. Will report back this evening.
Something for you to think about in the mean time. do you think the load on the secondary has to match the Gen coil. Makes a difference what kind of load is put on the secondary for it to rotate. Load on it armature rotates --------- load off it sometimes just verily moves, other times it doesn't move until load in put on the sec. Be back later.
I think it has to be a fixed load, what that load will be has to be determined. There will be much trial and error to get the correct settings but at this stage we are testing to confirm the principals. what is the output volts and amps when compared to the input an does it accelerate under load? it sounds as though it does.
Depending on where the motor coil is set at. The input volts are run at 20 volts. the amps raise or lower according to where the coil is positioned. From as low as 17 Amps to a high of 30 amps.
The out put coil again depends on position. From a 1-1 ratio to a 1-2 ratio. 20-20 volts and 20-42 Volts at the high at 2.42 Amps. With a car heater motor on the out put side.
Yes it does accelerate under load. As the heater motor would increase in rpm the generator would in crease in speed too. But input amps are so high it want to heat up the commutator so fast. That why i was working on adjustment of the two coils today.
Couldn't get the heater motor to turn. So i kept adjusting coils. guess what forgot to put the diode back in to make the dc heater motor run.
By the time I figured that out it was late. so will work on it tomorrow some time permitting. Need to check my volt meter on the front end to see if i have that in the right position also.
For me to get the t-action the motor coil edge has to be just somewhat below the brush center line and the gen coil on the opposite side of the brush line.
Need to make some longer slots in the case for sliding the coils back and forth. Works easier that way. Will do some adjusting of the coils tomorrow being i got some of this other stuff out of the way. Doesn't take much movement either way and the output voltage drops down to 1-1. The 90 degree position of the motor coil wont work for me so far. Going to try that again tomorrow and also moving the positive brush.
Lets get this documented, Its an important first step we are taking O0
1) Coil Configuration The motor field and armature coils, are they in series or parallel?
2) your input voltage and current across the motor field coil and what wave form are you using? half wave rectified?
3) motor Field coil position relative to the brushes in degrees, as accurate as you can get.
4) Was your motor field coil a starter coil or a generator coil? maybe guess at the number of turns.
5) Your generator coil, is it the same number of turns as the motor field coil and what is its angle?
6) The volts and amps output
7) try it with a bridge rectifier.
8 ) Lower your input voltage and repeat the test.
9) repeat the test with lower and higher resistance loads.
I believe you may have proven that the transformer effect and generator effect are additive. This is a biggie, congratulations if it proves to be the case. I can't stress how important this is.
With a lower resistance load the output amps will shoot up, this is exciting.
The acceleration under load is the transformer effect drawing more current through the motor, This is what I expected but was not sure if the generation drag would be able to cancel it out.
To prevent damage try using a lower voltage input
It would be excellent if you could make a video and send it to me
It sounds as though your output may well be AC but it will be shifted more to one side of zero than the other, Great work buddy. Now we need Steve Jones to replicate it, are you listening Steve?
On the acceleration under load, I assume you mean that the motor turns faster with a load on the generator, the question is, does it accelerate again when you slow your heater motor with your hand?
Going out to work with the coils. So i will have some more answers for us later on today.
Just a few things that are related to the generator experiments.
A- with the motor rotating and the gen coil in the right place. It only takes 8 volts dc to get the motor rotating and the out put volts go to 42.7 Volts DC. The out put volts rise pretty fast, before the generator reaches 1/4 speed. After that the speed will continue to rise, but the voltage wont go up much higher. Usually hits about 30 volts as the motor starts to get moving then rises to 47 as speed picks up.
B- Used a FWB to get the 42 Volts. Otherwise it was 14.4 Volts DC.
C- With the generator motorizing and the heater motor as a load. if I slow down the heater motor by hand the amps on the input will climb until the generator just about stops or the circuit breaker trips. The increase there is about 10 Amps. So it works like it supposed to.
D- Depending on what position the Gen coil is at. the generator will chatter and hum and growl real loud which defeats the efficiency.
E- Also the gen coils position and magnetic field on the pole shoe is what makes it rotate. This when the voltage is the highest. when the motor coli is used in rotating the gen the out put voltage is about 1/2. But then the gen coil has to be repositioned. When right 42 volts.
So it takes some time to get the 2 coils to work together in the best position so each one is aiding the other. Hopefully I can get this documented tomorrow.
This all sounds as I expected :D hard to believe it but I thought you would get results like this.
I don't want the motor field coil to be causing rotation as this generates BEMF in the motor field coil and will reduce efficiency and amp flow. We should only use the generator coil to get rotation. I am surprised by the jump from 8V input giving 42.7, I would expect only 16 or so volts. maybe we should load the output until it drops to 16V and then measure the amps. I would also like a scope shot, if possible, of the output compared to the input.
A universal motor is running at its optimum when loaded so that it is only spinning at half the speed of the unloaded motor. In my previous tests it seamed as though I would have to run the Lockridge at half speed or less, this is not an ideal situation for a universal motor as the torque drops off rapidly and the motor stalls. With the transformer effect in our motor causing an increase in current under load this may mitigate the drop in torque and we may be able to run the motor in this condition but these torque effects are due to increased BEMF in normal conditions. Our motor is NOT normal and should only produce a small amount of BEMF so maybe we have solved the BEMF problem to some extent.
I still do not fully understand why we have AC of 42V, this is why I need a scope shot.
The effect of loading the output is exactly as expected.
The chattering and humming is the effect of the motor being magnetically locked but gives an Indication of potential torque.
Yes it is the generator coil that gives us the torque
The motor coil needs to be placed in magnetic lock, I think that will mean the brush will be positioned in the middle of the motor coil but it depends upon how the armature was wound. Normal universal motors have their armatures wound with a 90 degree offset, this is why to get out motor coil at 90 degrees we place it in the same position as the brush. Is this what you are seeing?
Don't expect your motor to be running perfectly, remember we haven't rewound the armature yet and flux may be leaking out all over the place.
Use as low an input voltage as you can but aim to get as high an output voltage as you can when compared to the input. I expect the speed to be in the range of 3 to 6000RPM
Excellent work, I wish I was there with you.
In answer to your question.about the motor coil. The motor coil position is 1/2 way between the commutator segments that the brushes are aligned with.
This is the 90 degree position against rotation. The center of the field pole is aligned with the center comm bar between the pos and neg brush.
Now the interesting thing about that position, If i use that to motorize there or forward a little, it rotates CCW. The closer I get it to the pos brush it rotates CW.
Just like the Earth spins at the north and south pole. --------------- I haven't moved the the positive brush to check the effects yet.
I have placed the field coil right under the stock position of the brush and the gen coil ahead of that. When under load there's so much
BEMF just about kills the motor. Right under the brush or just before it is the best place for motor rotation, but then output voltage drops off to 1/2.
The generator in rotation is up right a 5000 rpm. When under load it drops to 2900 rpm.
Part of what I'm going to do today is try different loads and record the effects.---------If there's anything else,Ill check back in a few hours.
Excellent progress and exciting results! I'm traveling in Missouri - Kansas -Colorado-Utah in the next few days...
Hiwater, are you anywhere near I-70? would be delighted to meet you.
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2012.10.24, 16:40:08
Excellent progress and exciting results! I'm traveling in Missouri - Kansas -Colorado-Utah in the next few days...
Hiwater, are you anywhere near I-70? would be delighted to meet you.
Northwestern, Minnesota. Along highway no. 2. If ever in Minn. let me know. The results are looking better all the time if we can get to accelerate under load enough to do what it is supposed to do. Thanks for the vote of confidence.
If I understand you correctly, the way you are adjusting the forward and reverse rotation is to do with the motor field coil and the armature. The brush should ideally be set in the half way position between clockwise and anticlockwise. In this position the BEMF will be minimized. Let the generator coil cause the rotation, it should rotate even when there is no load on the generator and only rotate in one direction. I suspect your amp draw will be at its maximum when set like this as there is no BEMF to restrict it.
With this motor field coil position fixed we now adjust the position of the generator field coil so that the rotational torque is at its maximum i.e. maximum speed.
These tests not only help us work out the number of turns required on the generator field coils but the width of the shoes required for the generator.
Remember once we start to pulse this motor the current will go way down on the input.
With the motor set like I have described what is the input volts and amps and what is the output volts and amps? What is the speed?
With a very low input voltage you could try holding the motor shaft to feel for cogging.
Note that on this drawing the powered motor field coil is cross hatched and the brushes are directly in line with it. this is what we want
Yes most of what you said above is correct. The brush and field pole are set close to the 90 DEGREE POSITION. Normal stock position is 180 apart like in your drawing, which will rotate nicely close to 5000 rpms.
But with the gen coil at 180 and moving it back towards the motor coil there is too much drag on the armature when under load. The load will drop the rpms way down. This will happen until the closer you get to the motor coil.
That's why I put the motor coil in at 90 . then moved the gen coil closer to it. They are both at just about a 90 degree angle apart at this time, until further testing today.
I can feel the kick in action of the gen coil when i put a load on it. It does pick up in rpm. But right the motor is turning about 500 rpms. the way it is set. It draws 31 Amps at 8 volts dc. out put on the gen coil is anywhere from 42 Volts DC to 50 Volts at about 2.42 Amps.
The armature will start rotating at 5.5 Volts DC at 8 Volts rpm is gaining and so is the output volts until the breaker kicks out. I will go by your diagram today and work it out and check for results
I did check for cogging before by hand it pretty strong when the gen field coil is on the up side of the positive brush with rotation. If need be i can rework that gen coil so it will aid in rotation with a load, but that's the last resort. i don't know how much voltage it would put out or if it would completely cancel out the magnetic field on the gen coil. I have one extra set of field coils. I might try it anyway just to see what happens.
Just doing the maths on your input and output figures suggests we need over 50% recovery in our recovery circuit, a bit of a tall order but for now continue testing. Another researcher "Pault" has let me know some information that may reduce drag and believe it or not, it is the trifilar coil. Its like all the parts are starting to come together.
Done the tests per your diagram with the coils and brushes at 180 degrees apart. The motor coil under the pos brush and the gen coil under the neg brush. No rotation. starting to figure this armature ous some it operates in quadrature.
Never realized that until today working with your diagram. If both coils are on TDC it won't rotate. It may go either way like you said. that was a BIG clue for me. As I started working with the coils that started to fall into place as I moved the gen coil towards the motor coil. I could see how it works in 1/4s. Because when i got the gen coil at the center of 1/2 of the armature it wouldn't rotate. Until i went past that 90 degree point then it rotated the other way. The 90 degree point is the highest point of magnetic field which is one-half no and south. So it wont move until there is more of one than the other. depending on which way you move the gen coil. So the gen coils has to be off center one way or the other. ( this was a good learning experience for me today it put a lot of things together that i can try to figure out now).
As per your diagram if I move the gen coil towards the motor coil in the direction against rotation 45 degrees seem to be the best spot. When first spinning it up 3300-3600 rpms the input volts were 10.5 and the output volts were 46.2 Volts Input Amps were 29.86. Output Amps to heater motor was about 1.97-2.01. Voltage drops down to about half. The moving of the gen coil is figured as CW rotation. Putting it under load it slows the motor way down.
The only times I have had some acceleration under load was when the motor coil was beyond the pos brush against rotation and the motor coil closer to the pos brush against rotation. Now that i realized about these quadrants hope fully I can place them better now that I know this. That was a lot of help so a BIG THANK YOU FOR MAKING ME THINK. Don't know for sure how much ill get done tomorrow, other things on the agenda.
You asked about the acceleration under load. When i slowed down the heater motor the gen slowed way down and the input amps went way up spiked at almost 39 Amps before the breaker clicked off. When i get the coils in the right place it does accelerate under load. Not a whole lot but it is noticeable. The ones i worked on last winter would gain close to a 1000 rpms. That was with one starter motor coil for running and one regular Delco generator coil for the generation side. Increasing the air gap also helps that effect also, but it might hinder us here on the t-effect. These Delco field coils take up 1/2 of the armature so that might of helped it too. Also when i got to a certain rpm the BEMF didn't bother too much either. That field coil was run in series off the positive brush and then to a bank of 12 volt light bulbs. I had 6 or 7 bulbs connected up in which i could flip a switch for each bulb. Each bulb I put on would increase the motor rpm all the way up close to a 1000 rpms. I had one set wound in series and another set for parallel use. Can't remember which was the best set though.
Thanks again for all your help . I have learned a lot through all these experiments. Hope fully we can get these coils positioned in the best place now and see a good acceleration under load.
Quote from: Hiwater on 2012.10.26, 04:36:34
Done the tests per your diagram with the coils and brushes at 180 degrees apart. The motor coil under the pos brush and the gen coil under the neg brush. No rotation. starting to figure this armature ous some it operates in quadratures.
If the armature is set up in quadrants it may give us anomalous results and you wont be able to do the tests that I now need. The only way to find out is to run a current through the commutator at opposite segments and check how many poles there are with a magnet. A normal armature will have two, one in attraction and one repelling, if it has four I will have to try and see how to work with that.
I'm not totally sure I understand your posts so I will spell it out how I would like the tests done. Take a look at the picture I have attached, I am assuming you have two field coils and the other field coils have been removed.
The red coil is powered at the same time as the armature, the green coil is the output. The white coils and shoes have been removed. The brushes are marked in black. Is this how you have it?
I think it must be something like that otherwise I would not expect to get the results you have.
Quote from: Hiwater on 2012.10.26, 04:36:34Never realized that until today working with your diagram. If both coils are on TDC it won't rotate. It may go either way like you said. that was a BIG clue for me. As I started working with the coils that started to fall into place as I moved the gen coil towards the motor coil. I could see how it works in 1/4s. Because when i got the gen coil at the center of 1/2 of the armature it wouldn't rotate. Until i went past that 90 degree point then it rotated the other way. The 90 degree point is the highest point of magnetic field which is one-half no and south. So it wont move until there is more of one than the other. depending on which way you move the gen coil. So the gen coils has to be off center one way or the other. ( this was a good learning experience for me today it put a lot of things together that i can try to figure out now).
As per your diagram if I move the gen coil towards the motor coil in the direction against rotation 45 degrees seem to be the best spot. When first spinning it up 3300-3600 rpms the input volts were 10.5 and the output volts were 46.2 Volts Input Amps were 29.86. Output Amps to heater motor was about 1.97-2.01. Voltage drops down to about half. The moving of the gen coil is figured as CW rotation. Putting it under load it slows the motor way down.
The only times I have had some acceleration under load was when the motor coil was beyond the pos brush against rotation and the motor coil closer to the pos brush against rotation. Now that i realized about these quadrants hope fully I can place them better now that I know this. That was a lot of help so a BIG THANK YOU FOR MAKING ME THINK. Don't know for sure how much ill get done tomorrow, other things on the agenda.
You asked about the acceleration under load. When i slowed down the heater motor the gen slowed way down and the input amps went way up spiked at almost 39 Amps before the breaker clicked off. When i get the coils in the right place it does accelerate under load. Not a whole lot but it is noticeable. The ones i worked on last winter would gain close to a 1000 rpms. That was with one starter motor coil for running and one regular Delco generator coil for the generation side. Increasing the air gap also helps that effect also, but it might hinder us here on the t-effect. These Delco field coils take up 1/2 of the armature so that might of helped it too. Also when i got to a certain rpm the BEMF didn't bother too much either. That field coil was run in series off the positive brush and then to a bank of 12 volt light bulbs. I had 6 or 7 bulbs connected up in which i could flip a switch for each bulb. Each bulb I put on would increase the motor rpm all the way up close to a 1000 rpms. I had one set wound in series and another set for parallel use. Can't remember which was the best set though.
Thanks again for all your help . I have learned a lot through all these experiments. Hope fully we can get these coils positioned in the best place now and see a good acceleration under load.
I wont comment on the rest until we have the coil positions established.
This is a conversation I have had with another researcher who wishes to remain anonymous
Quote"> > Everyone also seems to ignore the energy coming out of the motor on the return wire that hasn't been consumed.
> Maybe I don't understand this sentence."
When we put a cap in the return line we can collect energy that has passed through the motor and is not consumed by it. If the motor consumed all the energy in its losses and power output, there would be no energy to be collected here but we can collect energy here. We know if there was no potential there would be no current flow, yet current flows. Matt has collected energy from this using transformers, in fact it could well be a principal involved in his Tesla switch without him even knowing it. I wont say this to Matt as he attacked me for saying motors have a transformer action, according to Matt "there is no transformer action in a motor, Period". I disagree but let him have his way. On other topics Matt is excellent so I am not knocking him. Think of it as water that has passed over a water wheel, it is still moving and has energy.
> Physically remove the armature from the universal motor. 4 stator coils
> are mounted on the same "core" (inside the motor casing). Fire two coils
> 180 degrees apart. This induces current into the two non-fired coils.
> The system is just a transformer with a goofy geometry. Yes?
No, not how we build motors today, we need the armature in place as the flux passes through it. Ill attach a FEA of a universal motor, imagine the top coil is powered and the bottom is the output coil. Effectively this is like a standard transformer except that the windings are not wound over each other. The armature coil, if in series would make it a 2 to 1 step down and if in parallel it would be 1 to 1 but with higher current assuming all the coils have the same number of turns.
> [error? Do the fields gen'ed by the primary coils "cut" the
> secondaries? Is there a magnetic path through the case which makes this
> happen, at least to a degree?]
No, not exactly, for transformer actions you need a change in intensity of the flux in the coils, no cutting necessary. Generating requires movement of flux laterally (usually referred to as cutting). Both these are changes in flux but are distinct and if both occur in the same coil they are additive. What I am about to say, keep to yourself for now as I am not sure about it, It is this, that is a possible gain in the SSG. I say I am not sure as the switching occurs after the magnet passes the coil.
So why do we not see the gain when using the second coil as an output on a universal motor? We do get the transformer action and we do get the generator action in the second coil just as I explained but the generated action in the primary opposes the supplied voltage so that the effective voltage in the primary coil is dramatically reduced. Typically over 90% in an unloaded motor and 50% in a fully loaded motor. This will mean that the gain from the transformer action is between zero and 50% and if our motor is less than 50% efficient the losses will account for more than the gain and so the motor remains below 100% efficient using the compensation as an output. For this reason we have to stop the BEMf in the power coil and to do this we have to move it away from the moving flux in the pole.
If you think about this you can build a much more efficient universal motor, so how do you do it? If you don't figure this out in your reply, I will tell you but I want you to start to understand what we are doing and why it works.
> Same with the armature by itself. (How many poles?). If we fire one
> set of poles, the armature induces current into the other inactive
> poles. Again, a transformer.
>
> This already sounds like something I've never thought about. There's a
> transformer effect where the secondary coils
> "recover" (transform, induce) energy even before the BEMF spike happens.
Excellent, you are already starting to think.
I believe our armature only requires two poles.
The action of the transformer effect is independent of the motor until BEMF kills it. Inductive kickback adds to it, as it also adds current flow. The transient is momentary and has little effect on motoring but we will also collect this in the lockridge. When we power the pulse the current ramps up, we switch off the pulse and if there is a conductive path, the inductive kickback will ramp down current adding to the overall current flowing in the motor. Remember it is current times the number of turns to get magnetic force, voltage is irrelevant. Volts times amps in a transformer provided the flux is changing intensity. Half our transformer action comes from the inductive kickback and so we did not have to pay for it. Not sure I explained it well, ask me about it if you don't get it.
The whole motor is the transformer. but we will deal with the armature's specific role later, I need you to get this transformer action. To do it with a PM DC motor you would need a special armature
> There must be BEMF in all the coils, primaries and secondaries. They all
> had current running in them and will resist the change in current (in
> different directions).
You are correct with an off the shelf motor the way we wire them but it is possible to wire a 4 pole motor so that BEMF is dramatically reduced. Remember BEMF is generated current, is the same thing, its just what coil it is in that determines what we call it. Generated current, BEMF and the output of a transformer all occur in the opposite direction to applied current in a motor.
> And then, there's a possibility of some non-conservative field (Lec 16)
> coupling between the armature and stator windings.
Im not sure what this is but if it is what I think it is the answer is yes but we have to try and minimize this.
Mike
I apologize for not getting back to you in timely manner. Had lots of things going on in the family. Plus we got dumped with snow last nigh. So have take care of that today. i did read your lasts posts very interesting. BEMF is the same generated current. Very good. So now we know we have some power in this. what we need is the coil positioning of the motor and generating coils to pick this up. Be back this evening to answer your above questions.
The armature is 1/2 north and 1/2 south. Between each side at the half way point is the highest magnetism on each side. moving from there forwards or backwards changes rotation direction. Also changes voltage output. So no you are OK with configuring this armature.
Your attached drawing in reply #226. I had everything right except i had the gen coil on the opposite side. This afternoon I changed it to the other side at 90 degrees. This made quite a lot of difference in the running of the motor action. It seemed like the motor run more free. but the input amps were still at 29.0. output voltage 49.5 Volts. Which was a little higher for that side of the armature. Motor did slow up on load.
Motor coil no load 8V input Amps 21.94 out put volts 44.2 motor coil under load. 8 Volts input 31.49 amps.
Heater motor as load draws 1.30 amps. volts drop down to .6 from 27.9 volts.
If there any more questions don't be afraid to ask.
Quote from: mbrownn on 2012.10.26, 03:58:43
Just doing the maths on your input and output figures suggests we need over 50% recovery in our recovery circuit, a bit of a tall order but for now continue testing. Another researcher "Pault" has let me know some information that may reduce drag and believe it or not, it is the trifilar coil. Its like all the parts are starting to come together.
Sounds like this man has done his homework. How does this do this. Must be receiving the kickback from the armature. We can think of it as the motor going clockwise and the generator counter clockwise in the same case. Two whirlwinds at the same time.
If the kickback is a different polarity will the one motor coil have to be wound opposite. Maybe not if its on the other side of the armature and timed right it should move the armature ahead. Don't let this guy out of your sight sounds like he invaluable.
FORGOT TO MENTION THE THE RPM IN MY LAST POST on the tests i did with the gen coli on the other side. they were 4194, which I thought were pretty good.
Ok that is good.
I think you should try it with a lower resistance load so that it draws more amps, you could even try feeding the output back to the input and see how much the input draw drops
Maybe now we need to slot the case and power the other side and tune to optimum input power to output ratio. After that we need to pulse the motor which will require making a simple commutator placed on the output shaft
I haven't abandoned the work on this project. I have been working on the M1 and G1 coils before I do any more tests. Have replaced the motor coil with a taller one with a longer pole shoe and also put in a wider pole shoe for the G1 coil.
The wider pole shoe for the gen coil may prove not useful. it covers 3 armature slots instead of just 2. Plan for today is to work with repositioning those coils to get the motor to accelerate under load.
I can clearly see now how this armature reaction is supposed to work when moving the coils. (light finally come on) as to what is happening when the coils are repositioned. Now that i have a better understanding of what that purpose was for. I can think this through as to what is happening with each coil and the armature when moving them in the case.
So we are still moving forward, just another part that has to be solved.
Good work my friend, this is very significant. I have been trying to stir up some interest but with little success, I guess people will only look at it once we have a complete device but what we are doing is research. The reason I am sure this is the real thing is its complexity, it combines many methods of getting gains all in one device. What you are doing now is reducing the BEMF, hence the high current draw, and tuning the generation. Normally with such a high current draw we would have a very high mechanical power but in our case we do not see that. This is because we are generating at the same time which is absorbing the mechanical energy. I remember you said that the motor growled and hummed, I expected that, this tells us that we have huge magnetic forces taking place in the system. Keeping the motor coil in the perfect magnetic lock position and moving the generator coil to obtain maximum power out of the output coil is the goal.
Try using a bank of 12v 100w bulbs in series or parallel as as load, add or remove bulbs until we get the maximum power coming out of the coil then we can compare that with the input power. If we get above 50% efficiency I will be very excited as at this level a self runner is definitely possible, it may be possible at lower efficiencies because of the effect of all the other parts but we will have to see.
Do you have access to a lathe?
Quote from: sucahyoQuote from: mbrownnIt is only a test and as we do not have a method to pulse the motor at the moment, it is the nearest we have to pulsed DC. The voltage needs to vary so that the transformer action takes place but we do not want to use AC as the voltage reverses and inductive kickback cannot be collected. There will be no benefit from inductive kickback using this supply but there will be when we do pulse it.
Ok. thanks.
I think half sine wave do not replace pulsed dc. there is no sudden voltage termination in half sine wave.
I am confuse, do you detect inductive kick back from a transformer running with half wave sine wave?
Exactly, we can get a transformer action but no inductive kickback with half wave rectified AC.
Once we switch to true square waves we should get inductive kickback and if we get the duration of the pulse short enough we will get a relatively large percentage of our pulse back. This is our first gain in the motor as up to half of the current could be supplied by the inductive kickback, thus up to half of the transformer current and up to half of the motive force could be supplied by inductive kickback. In my previous tests I was able to get about 17% extra motive force and recovery by this method, if it proves to be the case that the same amount of transformer current can be obtained then we have 34% extra energy in the motor. This will raise a typical 35% efficient motor up to a 69% efficient motor generator.
Now if we recycle that 17% by collecting it in a capacitor as well and feed it back to the source we reduce the input by 17%. Now we are on a 86% efficient motor. This is the recycling
My tests before were on a modified induction motor (the Lindemann rotary attraction motor) the pulse duration was far too long and so the recovery and gain was low.
Our first tests on this motor have been 37% efficient with the half wave AC and we can improve that by closing the gap between the rotor and field poles (currently about 1.4mm and 0.7 to 0.8 being the optimum) so I am anticipating slightly better results. At the moment we are working on improving the efficiency of our basic motor, If we can get it above 50% efficiency then overunity or selfrunning is possible. Motors of 70%+ efficiency have a gap of 0.7 to 0.8mm. With smaller gaps the transformer coupling will improve too.
Yes there is a huge magnetic lock. Didn't try turn it by hand but I could tell from the way it sounded. When it did this it buzzed so much the whole generator would move around because of the vibration. before it done this it was like the gen case would try and twist just a little to line up with the flux on the armature. it was so strong you could almost feel the struggle inside the case.
I have been so accustomed to working on these generators and running them as motors, that I failed to recognize that i was running them where the gen coil should be. Because what we are doing is to put the motor coil in a position for a dc motor and the gen coil in position for generating.
Once i get the coils in position. i will try the 12V bulbs, to see how it acts. Some of the things I'm doing now is proving to my self how this armature and field coils interact. Really interesting how this flux changes on the field poles. Another thing I didn't know is that there is a portion of the armature that is used for demagnetizing, still trying to learn more how this effects the field poles. Maybe you know. I don't fully understand it yet.
I think we need to standardize our terminology so that we do not misunderstand each other as your second paragraph could be interpreted two ways. We could use a clock face as the reference, 12 o'clock being where the positive brush is and 6 o'clock being where the negative brush is. So at 12 o'clock we have the motor power coil and at 3 o'clock we have the generator coil, the other coils and shoes are removed. If you have slotted the case the other coils and shoes should be on the other side of the slots.
Using the above as a reference, at what positions would the motor coils normally be as a standard unit? I would assume that they would be at 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock
Have you slotted the case yet? There is no need to slot the case yet but if you have it is not a problem as our next step is slotting the case, adding the two other coils and measuring any output.
Do you have a scope? I think scope shots will be very important in understanding the what is happening. If you are going to use a PC sound card as a scope you will need a big resistor on the probe to prevent burning out your sound card. Much better to use a real scope, you really need a scope. There are a lot of PC sound card scopes available free on the net if you are willing to take the risk but be warned, I used them for several years and in that time I have blown two sound cards when monitoring my Bedini SSG. In truth they are not very good. As a cheap alternative to a traditional scope you can get PC scopes that plug into the back of the PC and data loggers that you only plug in to download the info. Steve probably knows more about these than me but I am sure that they are far safer to use than your sound card.
There is a lot of tests we need to do.
The next test is to supply our 12 o'clock coil with our half wave input with the armature shorted, that is connect both brushes together with a wire and no supply to the armature. Now we are powering the armature with the transformer effect. Does the motor turn? and if it does what is the output from the generator coil at 3 o'clock? In this condition I expect the motor coil and the armature to be in opposition and so the motor should turn but could spin in either direction but I want to know what the output will be on the generator coil, does it change polarity? what is the volts and amps. We are now running the motor as an induction motor with BEMF so your amp draw will be lower but induction motors are usually more efficient, we will see. again scope shots would really help.
The clock description sound like a good Idea. What I finally figured out a couple of days ago. Is that The Generator Is at 12 and 6. the motor coils should have been at 3 and 9. Because they are 90 degrees apart Right. After all this time I HAVE BEEN MOTORIZING THE GENERATORS WITH THE COILS IN THE WRONG PLACE. JUST ACCUSTOMED TO WORKING ON THE GENERATORS NOT A BRUSHED DC MOTOR. Two completely different phases.
Yes the motor coil is at 12 o'clock and the gen coil is at 3 o'clock. i did have the gen coil at 9 but changed it to the 3 o'clock position because the direction of rotation was wrong. It is rotating CCW.
Reference to first paragraph. The generators that I am using are the stock position of 12 and 6. but i was wrong in my thinking. That's 180 degrees when the motor should have been 90 degrees to it at 3 and 9.
Tomorrow time permitting I'm going to work on this. Yes I did slot the case But its in the wrong place. Done a nice job on it too.
Yes I do have a scope all I need to know is how to hook it up and read it.
If you have slotted the case, just make sure that the magnetic circuit does not cross the slot. With the scope just set it to AC on the highest voltage and then switch down the voltage till you can read the wave form then take a pic and send it to me.
Do you have skype? then I can show you in real time how to use one.
Results of the last test you described.
Motor coil at 12 and Gen coil at 3 o'clock position. No the motor doesn't turn.
Motor coil voltage 1.5 volts 30 amps Gen coil 7.5 volts, voltage does swing negative. connected to a load .13 amps. (heater motor)
Note this is with one end of the motor coil grounded to the case. If i connect the end i grounded to the case , right off the variable transformer the readings drop about in half.
These tests were done with a wider field pole that covers 3 armature slots. I tried the narrow one I had too but the readings were also about one half. So I put the wider one back in.
---------------I am making another field pole for the other gen coil to put in with the other motor coil. From the looks of it the slots in the case are in the right place for each side,just on the edge of the m-g coils.
Quote from: mbrownn on 2012.11.05, 12:24:25
If you have slotted the case, just make sure that the magnetic circuit does not cross the slot. With the scope just set it to AC on the highest voltage and then switch down the voltage till you can read the wave form then take a pic and send it to me.
Do you have Skype? then I can show you in real time how to use one.
What do you mean in this first sentence. The coils come up right to the edge of the slots. Hope that's right. Think I can figure this scope thing out. Ill have to try and remember how to load up those pictures again. I haven't done since the last picture I sent you 8 months ago.
I'm going to try to work some more on this tomorrow.
There should be no slot between the motor power coil and the generator coil. The motor is in fact two motor/generator circuits, one either side of the slots.
Quote from: mbrownn on 2012.11.07, 04:32:08
There should be no slot between the motor power coil and the generator coil. The motor is in fact two motor/generator circuits, one either side of the slots.
That's the way I have it.
Quote from: mbrownn on 2012.11.07, 04:32:08
There should be no slot between the motor power coil and the generator coil. The motor is in fact two motor/generator circuits, one either side of the slots.
Then when the slots are 180 apart. The armature dividing line would be east to west. With one circuit above and below the east west line.So the motor negative brush would need to at 3and 9 oclock position. The motor positive brushes would need to be at 12 and 6 positions.
Sounds reasonable. Whether it will work or not i don't know until I try It.
With the motor coil center at between the 1 and 2 o'clock position and the gen coil between the 10 and 11 o'clock position. The pos brush at 12 and the neg brush at 6 o'clock position. it works really good using 1/2 wave rectified. It does pick up in speed as I add more load to the gen coil with the 12 volt bulb load bank.
So i removed the 12 volt bulbs and connected the heater motor as a load. It starts spinning a little slow but picks up speed pretty good then all of a sudden the motor starts to run wild. Increases in speed dramatically and the heater motor starts spinning faster until the circuit breaker cuts off. So we are on to something here. Something going on.
I have been working on this off and on when I get time. helping build a garage for a friend. I have got the other set of coils and pole shoes ready. I first need to figure out if I can get to rotate by changing the neg brush to somewhere around the 3 o'clock position. So were still moving forward on this project. A little at a time.
The slots in the case do separate the 2 circuits. Which I do have wrong according to where i have the m-g coils now. So it will have to be reslotted again. This is the best place for the coils i can find at this time. They are close to the magnetic neutral line for the motor and gen axis as the armature reaction takes plac in separate machines. That's where I'm at, at this time. So were are making progress. Trial and error.
There is most definitely a transformer action and IT DOES INCREASE IN RPM.I believe the motor speed is regulated by the load. From What I have seen at this point in time.
No, this wasn't what I meant but by all means check this out, you may find something.
What I did mean was to have the motor coil at 12 o'clock and the positive brush at 12 o'clock, the second motor coil at 6 o'clock and the negative brush at 6 o'clock. The generator coils would be at 3 and 9 o'clock with the splits in the case at 10.30 and 4.30.
Once we have all four coils in the device we can try having the motor coils in series or parallel and the same with the generator coils. The test with the motor coils in parallel and the generator coils in series should be interesting, will it be more efficient or not?
Keep up the good work as you are the only person in the world that is doing this, as far as I know. I wish Steve would give it a try.
The people that I have shared some information with are
Pault (he does not want to join us here for political reasons)
Erfinder (he does not want to join us here for political reasons)
Turion (I never asked)
sucahyo (I never asked)
Peter Lindemann (he never replied to my email)
Obviously the other members of this private group have access to what I am saying.
Pault and erfinder are interested but as of now haven't done anything about it. erfinder understands the concept very well but is busy building his own device that works in a different way, I would say he has the best understanding of it other than me. I keep putting hints of the forums but am not getting a response. I know we are getting very close to being able to build this and get it working.
I have all 4 coils in, the way you prescribed. The Holes for the gen pole shoes in the case I made a little longer so I can adjust either way. Preliminary tests is at about 104-110 volts. It will lite 2 100 watt bulbs pretty good . The third one brings the voltage down so all three are at about 3/4 illumination . The bulbs in parallel works better because the motor really increases in speed.
When removing power seems like the coils are still loaded because it doesn't slow down like it used too. Any way I'm going to try and finish out the last tests from your above post with some other thing i thought of this week. Got to put the slots back in too.
Quote from: Hiwater on 2012.11.17, 14:44:41
I have all 4 coils in, the way you prescribed. The Holes for the gen pole shoes in the case I made a little longer so I can adjust either way. Preliminary tests is at about 104-110 volts. It will lite 2 100 watt bulbs pretty good . The third one brings the voltage down so all three are at about 3/4 illumination . The bulbs in parallel works better because the motor really increases in speed.
When removing power seems like the coils are still loaded because it doesnt slow down like it used too. Any way im going to try and finish out the last tests from your above post with some other thing i thought of this week. Got to put the slots back in too.
100+ Volts,
WOW :D Can't wait for the results, describe in detail the best you can. Compare watts in with watts out etc O0
Sorry for not being able to wait, are they 110v bulbs
Quote from: mbrownn on 2012.11.17, 15:40:09
Sorry for not being able to wait, are they 110v bulbs
YES they are. Before any tests were done today. i put slots in another case and places for anther set of brushes. Well then i decided to transfer all the coils to that generator case. Just been one of those days. First it wouldn't run. Got that figured out . But now my voltage is down to 80 volts and doesn't spin as free. So will need to take it back apart and check each coil and its position with the armature slots along with the brushes.
It was working sooo good too. So will get back to you soon as I get that done. May have to put everything back in the other case again.
Once we get the voltage up some more all 3 bulbs should be lit up pretty good. But for now i have to get it back to where i had this am when i posted to you.
Keep doing the comparisons with series and parallel although my gut says it will need to be parallel on the motor. Are you still using an 8V supply and what is the amps?
I still can't figure why the voltage is so high, I was expecting 24V output for an 8V input with the motor in parallel and the gen in parallel. With the motor in parallel and the gen in series I would expect 48V all tests with a small load. Under heavy load I would expect the voltage to drop. There must be something going on that I have not thought about, Scope shots would help me here. With everything in series I thought the voltage would be less than everything in parallel.
If your input is 8V at 30 amps or 240W, being able to power 200+ watts of bulbs is 83% efficient and is a very good efficiency. We are well on target for a self runner, In fact it should not be too difficult if this is the case. I was not expecting this which again tells me I have missed something. The only thing I can think of is that we are generating little or no BEMF in the motor coils and that we have three input coils on our transformer (two motor and one armature) and two on our output. It just does not add up ???
Quote from: mbrownn on 2012.11.18, 07:46:14
keep doing the comparisons with series and parallel although my gut says it will need to be parallel on the motor. Are you still using an 8v supply and what is the amps?
I still can't figure why the voltage is so high, I was expecting 24v output for an 8v input with the motor in parallel and the gen in parallel. With the motor in parallel and the gen in series I would expect 48v all tests with a small load. Under heavy load I would expect the voltage to drop. There must be something going on that I have not thought about, Scope shots would help me here. With everything in series I thought the voltage would be less than everything in parallel.
If your input is 8v at 30 amps or 240w, being able to power 200+ watts of bulbs is 83% efficient and is a very good efficiency. We are well on target for a self runner, In fact it should not be too difficult if this is the case. I was not expecting this which again tells me I have missed something. The only thing I can think of is that we are generating little or no BEMF in the motor coils and that we have three input coils on our transformer (two motor and one armature) and two on our output. It just does not add up ???
Ill do my best to keep you informed. Just got to figure what I did wrong yesterday to get it back to where I had It before. It kind of suprised me too when the 2 bulbs lit so bright.
QuoteWhen removing power seems like the coils are still loaded because it doesnt slow down like it used too.
I have been thinking about this, After the supply is removed the generator will continue to generate while the armature is spinning provided that the armature coils have an unbroken circuit and it is the generation that causes the rotation. This makes sense to me.
The question is how is the current still passing through the armature? We have an unmodified armature which is in itself a loop of coils so this could explain it, Its an induction generator that is self exciting.
It may be worth a try to place a large diode across the armature in the opposite direction of the applied current. If this allows the current to flow better, the generation in the power off time will be improved and the motor will spin longer.
A normal generator breaks when it generates, ours accelerates.
This is a discussion I have had with Pault
Hiwater connected the last too coils and ran a test, I believe his input was 8v 30 amps although he did not confirm it, his output was 100+ volts and was able to power 2 110v 100w bulbs at full brightness with the output. with three bulbs on the brightness dropped. If this proves to be the case adding the extra coils improved the efficiency with no increase in loss.
The thing I don't get is the voltage as all the coils are the same. If we put 8v half wave into a 1 to 1 transformer do we get 16v AC on the output? I believe so. But if this is the case and the output coils are in series this would give us 32v, add to that a generated voltage of 8v per coil and we still only have 48v Could 100v be due to a reversed lenz effect?
I have to wait till he updates the results but this is looking promising.
QuoteHi Mike
That's exciting news.
8V * 30A = 240W (in the non-pulsed DC case). Doesn't seem to be OU at the moment, unless I'm missing something about the design.
Did he measure the output current? Spinning armatures induce power-factor considerations - are we seeing an increased voltage at the expense of decreased current?
It's probably time to get me up to speed on the actual design, so that I might discuss it with you more intelligently. Tell me how Hiwater's thing is built.
I have put some thought into what you've said so far. See if this is correct:
- Shift the power coils so that when they're "on", the armature is not directly in their flux path. The armature is attracted to the "on" coils. As soon as the armature gets close, you shut off the power coils and avoid Lenz.
- You were hinting, with the Tesla device, that the power coils could be turned 90 degrees and wrapped around the "case" to minimize flux cutting.
- How was the "transformer proof" done? Are you certain you've got 1:1?
- How is the armature wound? The DC motors I've got seem to have 5 poles. If I power only one pole, the other four unpowered poles would become secondaries, either 4 separate secondaries, or one 4:1 secondary depending on wiring. I'm still thinking that the armature, on its own, is a classical transformer - a bunch of coils co-wound onto a common core (Is this stupid? It's late and I'm getting hungry :-). Then, is there also a induced transformation from the powered-up armature coil to the nearest stator coil(s)?
- 100V sounds like what I was getting in my coil-shorting experiments. He should check to see if he's got a short :-) :-) :-). (Seriously, are the brushes making-before-breaking, or something of that ilk?).
pt
Spinning armatures induce power-factor considerations - are we seeing an increased voltage at the expense of decreased current?
Yes
Shift the power coils so that when they're "on", the armature is not directly in their flux path. The armature is attracted to the "on" coils. As soon as the armature gets close, you shut off the power coils and avoid Lenz.Not exactly. The motor coils are placed where they will not cause rotation ie when the fields are in a direct streight line attraction. It is the generator coils that are bending the flux and causing rotation, this is why we get acceleration under load.
You were hinting, with the Tesla device, that the power coils could be turned 90 degrees and wrapped around the "case" to minimize flux cutting.
Yes
How was the "transformer proof" done?We locked the armature and applied half wave rectification to the motor coils and got AC out of the generator coils.
Are you certain you've got 1:1?Yes, the motor coils are identical to the generator coils although he may have put the motor coils in parallel and the generator coils in series which would be 1 to 2. You also have to take the armature coils into consideration but that is an unknown.
How is the armature wound?It is the standard lap winding, this will need to be modified at a later date but we are pushing as far forward as we can with the standard winding
The DC motors I've got seem to have 5 poles. If I power only one pole, the other four unpowered poles would become secondaries, either 4 separate secondaries, or one 4:1 secondary depending on wiring. I'm still thinking that the armature, on its own, is a classical transformer - a bunch of coils co-wound onto a common core (Is this stupid? It's late and I'm getting hungry :-).
Yes, you are not stupid. I would have to look at the stator to tell you how to make it work but i am sure it can be done using 4 of the five poles.
Then, is there also a induced transformation from the powered-up armature coil to the nearest stator coil(s)?
I assume so
100V sounds like what I was getting in my coil-shorting experiments. He should check to see if he's got a short :-) :-) :-). (Seriously, are the brushes making-before-breaking, or something of that ilk?).No shorts, the windings are very low resistance but the spikes caused by armature rotation might be an influence.
Glad to see you are thinking about this now, keep referring to the FEMM drawing I gave you, you will see how it works.
Mike
I had some bad news this morning, someone has been in my workshop and stripped the copper wire out of all my motors, transformers, variacs and everything to do with my research. B!@#*!rds The batteries and anything made of aluminum has gone too
Quote from: mbrownn on 2012.11.19, 02:59:02
I had some bad news this morning, someone has been in my workshop and stripped the copper wire out of all my motors, transformers, variacs and everything to do with my research. B!@#*!rds The batteries and anything made of aluminum has gone too
Mike -- so sorry to hear this! b****rds is right...
Let me announce here that I am planning something to bring in funds, much or all of it to be used to support researchers such as you, Les and Slider... who are doing great things IMO, but may need some influx of funds.
I've been thinking about it, and I have quite a lot of things I could put on a web-site right now.
I am writing a book on alt-energy research (which goes back 30+ years for me) -- to be offered now as a "growing book", but to be completed by July 2013.
That is, I will offer "chapters" now and more during the coming months with the goal of being finished next July.
One time charge, thinking of just $15 to make it more freely available to many people I hope.
I think a private forum format would actually work well, so that I could build on different threads -
such as-
0 Brief background on the Team (Steven, Les, Mike, Mark, David)
1Cold fusion history, including Dr Jones' early contributions going back to 1982
2Freedom energy history, going back to Tesla, Moray and Davey
3The BEST freedom energy approaches, and evaluation by the team on the BEST approaches, including the LATEST developments in:
Cold fusion/anomalous excess heat
Davey electrolytic devices
Solid state devices
Motor-generator devices
Torque amplification devices
Quentron device
4Consumer alert section -- warning of alternative energy devices to STAY AWAY from.
5Feedback section
Would really like to do this quickly, e.g. for Christmas presents! I'm checking if it is possible to set up a
"PRIVATE" area in an existing forum where people could simply pay for the e-book by paying for a password?
A password that could only be used by one person at a time... to inhibit one password being shared by non-payers.
What do you think?
Yes, but living in a third world country, this kind of thing happens. It is the second time it has happened to me.
An interesting Idea and useful too. I don't know that you could get something that contains detailed information about a broad range of devices ready by Christmas, that's a tall order.
Best not to make list devices to stay away from (risk if litigation and possibility of knocking a perfectly good device because of a lack of understanding) better to point out ways to spot the scams and fakes. Keep it positive.
Obviously the Lockridge is not ready yet as we are still trying to eliminate false trails and prove what works. Once we have this thing working I intend to produce some sort of instruction manual to make one. I would be willing to contribute a few principal ideas that show why a self running motor is possible though not the details of the device yet as we have not proved it and things may change.
As for the method of payment and distribution, that is something I know nothing about.
I also think this is going down the route of other free energy researchers and will lead to criticism and detraction as well as people questioning your motives as they have had. So be ready for that.
Quote from: mbrownn on 2012.11.19, 02:59:02
I had some bad news this morning, someone has been in my workshop and stripped the copper wire out of all my motors, transformers, variacs and everything to do with my research. B!@#*!rds The batteries and anything made of aluminum has gone too
Sorry to hear about the loss of your equipment. They can remove the equipment, but they cant remove the knowledge gained. That we still have and its priceless. It could be a major step backwards, but we are not this way. We look at is a Giant leap forward in this technology. There was a reason for this happening. Just like all my setbacks. There is a reason for this. Most of the time its moving us in a different direction and re-evaluating our thinking. So Its still all positive. Yes I would be pretty upset too. With the price of copper some will sell their very own souls to the DEVIL. So who has really lost. Its not us its them the Thieves. For they know there own reward. I'm sure you feel devastated about what happened. But now is the time to keep pushing forward, this set back is minor BIGGER things are on the horizon.
Your friend HIWATER.
Quote from: mbrownn on 2012.11.19, 00:02:08
I have been thinking about this, After the supply is removed the generator will continue to generate while the armature is spinning provided that the armature coils have an unbroken circuit and it is the generation that causes the rotation. This makes sense to me.
The question is how is the current still passing through the armature? We have an unmodified armature which is in itself a loop of coils so this could explain it, Its an induction generator that is self exciting.
It may be worth a try to place a large diode across the armature in the opposite direction of the applied current. If this allows the current to flow better, the generation in the power off time will be improved and the motor will spin longer.
A normal generator breaks when it generates, ours accelerates.
Yes this is puzzeling. I worked on this concept last winter. Running a generator with a 3/4 hp motor. I could only put 1-12 volt bulb on the output feild wire and it would just about stop the generator from being spun with the other motor. So i continued in the process with the generator coils rewiring them in different configurations. Thats How i came up with the winding procedure to make it accelerat under load. When the generaror is driven by a battery as a motor and using the feild coil for power. Then I could get to accelerate under load. NOW-- 2 different scenarios here. ONE the generator being driven by another motor acts differently (like driven by a car engine) NO.2 The generator acts very different as when its is being driven by a car battery as a motor and pulling a load off the feild coil. Either way the magnetic flux has to be going with the rotation. but one is different from the other,because they dont work the same. Residual magnetisin has something to do with it. End result is to get the residual magnetisim polarity of the flux all going all the same way sit it takes very little power to rotate this thing. Still workin on this theory.
First off. Thanks for posting you discussion with Pault. When i first put power to the generator, before it starts to rotate the voltage climbs up to 95 volts. As it starts to turn the voltage drops down as the input voltage comes up. At 8 volts-80 volts out. At 10 Volts-90 Volts. At 15 volts close to a 100 volts. At 20 volts 102-112 volts out. As the input volts increase so does the rpm. These are approximate from what i can remember. The input amps have dropped down to about 27 amps sometimes less. Down to 24 amps. With .79-.88.on the load with the bulbs.
I should have run it and recorded everything before I took it apart and put it in the other gen case. The case i was using was for a starter generator case and i think the motor field pole holes for the field pole shoes are drilled a little different than with a generator case. What it looks like so far because the motor coils don't line up right with armature slots when the pos brush is supposed to be where it need to be. So that what I need to do to day is to get this back to where I had it before.
You're exactly right , the gen coils have to be within less than 1/8 of an inch or this will not work right voltage drops to 1/2. MOVING THEM FROM SIDE TO SIDE CHANGES THE VOLTAGE QUITE A LOT. THE WAY I HAD IT BEFORE SEEMED LIKE THE MORE POWER YOU PULLED OUT OF THE GEN COILS THE FASTER IT WENT. The more you move the gen coils to high voltage position. The less likely the gen case slots are in the position we think they are in. More testing on this to see if indeed they are where we think they are supposed to be, unless the motor field pole coils are moved too to get least amount of input amp draw.Then this changes where the slots are too. all for now need to get to work.
Ah looking at the volts and amps both on the input and output it looks like the efficiency is in the 35 to 50% range, this is what I expected. The power factor thing I don't understand as yet, but Paul's description is what we are getting, a gain in volts at the expense of current. I don't know if this is a good thing or not because it is amps we need to power the motor.
Remember this thing works counter intuitively. I don't think you want to adjust it until it draws the least amps, drawing less amps means we have either more BEMF or the transformer action isn't working as well. Let the current flow and drop the volts input.
I expected that we would have a problem with the armature because of the way it is wound. We should get torque across most of the pole face but because of the type of winding this is reduced. Back to what I said in the last paragraph about BEMF, it is inevitable in the armature but we don't want it in the motor coils.
To get the motor coils in the right position, we have to have them lined up perfectly with the armature coil, the motor will rotate a little like this but only weakly and you will get lots of grunting, groaning and humming from the motor. It is when we put a load on the generator that the motor accelerates up, the bigger the load the faster the speed. So without the generator connected to anything, look for the highest current draw but rotation. Again experimenting is the way to find out.
A small home welding transformer may be good for a power supply. The model that supplies the highest current will have the lowest voltage
Quote from: mbrownn on 2012.11.20, 01:29:15
A small home welding transformer may be good for a power supply. The model that supplies the highest current will have the lowest voltage
[/quote
Do you mean like a TIG welder. I have one of those I found in the scrap a few years ago.---------------Another thing i forgot to mention is that the armature builds up charge and when it builds up enough a nice blue spark either arcs across the comm segments somehow and goes back through ground right in to my variac which makes some funny growling noises. Or jumps from the closest armature winding to the negative brush. It does this quite alot when running. Was thinking of putting a wider brush on the negative side to see how it acts when I get it going again. Just some FYI.
Most likley the reason for the other set of brushes. Because theres a lot of power going to waste there.
I think for the testing we want to use a very low voltage to keep the power down, i am just thinking of high current transformers like welding equipment.
I am not sure what is causing the arcing, the motor is a complex transformer in effect, so there may be more interactions than I have thought of, that is why scope shots are important.
We know that the original has extra brushes on the armature, I have always assumed that this is for the collection of inductive kickback from the armature, if the armature is used for switching the device. I have been planning on using an external commutator making this unnecessary, but if there is other actions taking place we need to identify them.
WOW
Just had a 3 hour conversation with erfinder on skype, we just worked out what is going on in your armature. Its coil shorting and it is what is causing the gain in voltage in the output coil. Its very complex and it will be difficult to explain via posts on here, but the basis is this.
A lap wound armature is effectively a loop of coils in a ring. As the commutator moves under the brushes it effectively shorts out one of these coils (actually 2, one under each brush). This has 3 effects
1) The shorted coil has capacitance and so tries to discharge the stored energy across the short, as the resistance is very low a huge current flows in this coil and inductively transfers the energy to our generator coil.
2) During the coil short, it changes the inductance of the whole armature lowering the inductance allowing more current from the supply to pass through the windings charging them up.
3) As the shorted coil opens again the inductive kickback jumps in voltage to pass its remaining current into the whole armature, remember the inductor wants to maintain the same current regardless of Impedance so the voltage jumps up way above the source so that this can happen. At exactly the same time the inductance of the whole armature jumps up causing another inductive kickback trying to maintain the same current so the voltage jumps higher.
The net result is very high voltage in the armature which causes arcing.
This energy is normally dissipated in a compensation coil but because we have a load (Resistance) on our generator coil this does not happen efficiently.
This is why there is a second set of brushes on the armature, to collect this charge before the armature arcs. This charge is then placed in a capacitor across the source line reducing the input.
The key thing here is that the inductors in the armature are charged under a condition where their inductance is low and discharged when the inductance is high. It is another gain in the system
The reason why we have such a high current drain and low efficiency is because:-
a) We have lowered BEMF due to the power coils position, causing a higher current drain.
b) We are pulsing at the frequency of 60hz and not at the frequency of the switching (coil shorting) and not only when the inductance is low therefore lowering efficiency and pumping high voltage into your variac.
To solve this problem we have to commutate the pulses so that they occur at the right time and for the right duration. This explains why the brushes have to be only one commutator segment width for the power going to the armature, to some extent. We need to pulse the motor at the exact time that the short begins and stop the pulse at the exact time the commutator breaks the short. the rest of the time the armature is powered by the inductive kickback.
Man this is complex. This is assuming that the lockridge did indeed work this way and not how I originally thought. If it did not work this way then myself and erfinder have just come up with another way of doing it ;D
For now, we will continue with my original plan as it does not stop us from progressing this new theory, but we need to try and recover this high voltage out of the armature with another set of brushes. I will put some more thought into how we are going to pulse it.
The picture below was created during the discussion, If you want me to go through it with you it would be better to do it on skype.
I can pretty much understand what you explained. I believe the pulsing is part of the key here to get the right on and off time , so it will work for us.
Just to experiment i put a wide brush on the negative side that covers just about 2 comm segments to see what would happen and moved the positive brush advanced one segment. it raises the voltage in one gen coil a little over 5 volts. Only had 1 gen coil in for testing. More tests need to be done on that.
I'm still working on trying to figure out why I have so much voltage with that other gen case. The case I am using now there's only a combine voltage of 80 volts. A long ways from the 100 volts I had before. Not giving up yet. As soon as I put the coils back in that original case voltage comes to to about 97-99 volts. but I have that generator case so butchered up i don't want to use it. There's only about a 1/2 inch on each side holding the case together. Where I had made slots to move this gen and motor coils back and forth, to check results. So not much left of the case. I have to be able to produce the same results in another gen case So I am going to continue working on that until I can figure that out for now.
I have been looking at how to put in that other set of brushes in to get close enough to the original set. I don't know why they put the original one in the way they did.. To me there back wards. I think i can swap sides and make enough room. Would be better anyway then they would be resting on the wider part of the brush holder. The way they are now the timing can change during rotation unless its running CCW. That's another story.
YES this a WOW moment. There's a lot of things going on on this little motor. Thank GOD you have the wisdom to think this process through. I never realized that there was so many things to learn about motors and generators. There's a lot of little details that common folks don't look actually into, because there is no need to. One that I just found out is that one edge of the comm bars is on the shaft center. It may hold true with all the motors, I dont know. Your last post was of great inspiration to me. Thanks and Keep the good work.
Quotehave to be able to produce the same results in another gen case So I am going to continue working on that untill I can figure that out for now.
Did you check the air gaps in both the old and new case, It could be that that is giving the voltage difference.
QuoteThank GOD you have the wisdom to think this process through.Thank GOD you have the wisdom to think this process through.
I don't know about wisdom, but I am very tenacious.
QuoteYour last post was of great inspiration to me.
Thank you for the compliment.
QuoteOne that I just found out is that one edge of the comm bars is on the shaft center. It may hold true with all the motors, I dont know.
I am not sure what you mean by this, can you explain better pls?
Yes, I checked and rechecked the air gaps. What I done last was make sure that each feild pole is the same measurements in thickness. If not i ground them all down to the same size. This way when i use shims the air gap is the same. The shims are .010 each. Going to work on this today. Need to put everything back in the original case and try again. So i have a starting point and take my time to try figure this out.
The one edge of the commutator bar on what i have seen usually lines up with the center if the shaft. That is the leading edge, unless my commutator is turned a little bit. i probably should check some of the armatures to see if it is the same on the others too.
I was thinking about narrowing up the commutator bars some, But i don't know if it would help in the arc off the brush. There's quite a pronounced sound when this happens. Seems like it takes a few revolutions for the armature to build up charge for it to do this.
I have through the use of a wide air gap taken power off the gen field coil and fed it back to the input and the motor would speed up quite a lot. This motor-gen were working is a different situation. Then gen coils gives us a lot of rotation to begin with.
Don't forget to use a magnetic shim material.
QuoteThe one edge of the commutator bar on what i have seen usually lines up with the center if the shaft. That is the leading
edge, unless my cummutator is turned a little bit. i probably should check some of the armatures to see if it is the same on the
others too.
I still do not understand.
Do not alter the commutator bars. Does the arc occur in approximately the same position on the armature? If so the second set of
brushes will need to be lined up in this position.
The slots in the case need to be lined up along the case leangth, half way between the coils leaving about half an inch at each end. Are the slots you have for lining upthe pole shoes which goaround the cercumferance alsoonly leaving half an inch?I dont think this will have a huge influence, I'm just trying to picture what you have.
It does not seem that I will get the motor I want so I think I will have to make do with a starter motor. I need to be able to test what you are doing.
Commutator bars and shaft.----The one edge of the commutator bar, looking across to the shaft that runs thru the center of the armature looked like to me it was more lined up with the center of the shaft than the other edge of the same comm bar. Could be an illusion. I don't drink either.
My slots in the case do run vertically in between both sets of coils. The slots are 5/16 inch wide. Just enough room so the generator coils are right on the edge.
Ok I wont narrow the comm bars. the arc occurs on the leading edge of the commutator as it comes in contact with the negative brush in cw rotation.
The slots I have in the case do go around the circumference of the case in line with pole shoe bolt holes. This was the first one i had done so i slotted just about all the way around so i could move the coils to any position I needed. Now that i know more don't have to slot them that much, just enough to move the coils a 1/2 inch either way.
I have 2 gen cases with slots. one with radial slots for moving the coils and one for the regular L/R case in between the 2 sets of coils.
No I never thought about having steel shims, HA, been using aluminum. So back to the drawing board. The only thing I can figure out so far in the 2 different cases is that the one I have the radial slot in is the one I was getting the 100 volts out of. I have another motor I'm going to radially slot and then try the generator coils in. To see if that was the reason. then I can rule it out.
What kind of old vehicles do you have around there. I can tell you what to look for in generator types. you need 2 of the same though. that way the parts can be transferred more easily. With out too much headache. Also would need an older starter motor for the field coils and field poles. Most of those older starters had 4 field poles in but not all had 4 coils in some had only 2 for light duty use. May be I could send you a couple from eBay. Suppose the shipping would cost a fortune. Let me know what kind of junk vehicles there is laying around. Should be able to get you going in the right direction.
It is mainly Japanese stuff here but some Korean, there is plenty of four pole starters but I think everything has alternators and not the type of generator you have. There are no tractors, that's what carabow (a kind of water buffalo) are for. Most of the armatures have an odd number of slots whereas we ideally need even. Most of the stuff on the road here was out of a junk yard in japan, including my 30+ year old Suzuki mini truck hehehe
I think you will find shipping expensive, if you do consider it, ask about Balik Bayan boxes, they are cheaper, about 2 feet square and 3 feet high and it is a special price. No weight limit and no customs. its a world wide thing.
Im getting closer to getting this back to where i had it before i took it apart. can light the 3 bulbs now again. Motor wont start rotating untill I put a load on it. Then the speed will increase to just a little over 5000 rpms.
I have to do some adjustments on the coils and brushes to tune it a little to bring the input amps down some. So hopefully I wont mess it up. I put everything back in the original gen case.
I think the biggest problem was i had trouble with one of the generator coils. When I transferred to the other case was that i took the tape off and retaped it. What I think happened it changed the distance the feild polr was from the case. Because the one worked and the other didnt. Yestereday I found some good shim material to put behind the feild pole. Laminations from a transformer. easy to cut to fit. So now the feild poles on the gen coils are in full contact with the case walls. Which makes the bulbs a little brighter.
I got a sb card and a cord for the camera for pictures. So they are coming pretty soon.
I hesitate to tear this one down again to put the coils in to another case. So I might make up another one to duplicate it to use for testing along with this one. At least then I will have the original one.
Found a picture of the lockridge armature that J/B had on the video. never noticed it before but it looks like it could be regressively wound and for a 6 volt positive ground. The windings are wound to the left from the armature slots to the commutator bars. I will have to check it out further.
Be careful of anything that reduces current draw, remember this motor works counter intuitively. Less current draw usually means more BEMF and less efficient transformers. At this stage a lower input voltage may be a better idea.
I think it is time for recovery brushes. Maybe you should post the email I sent you.
If you can do it, keeping your prototypes is an excellent idea.
I think that rotor may be wave wound.
Well I worked on this project yesterday for quit a while. Through out all the trial and error, i managed to get the voltage back up. The voltage is at 125 volts now at 20 volts in put The 3 bulbs are in fact lite brighter at 10-12 volts than before.
First initial starting the out put voltage jumps to 100 volts before it starts rotating, then it will increase to 112 volts as it starts rotating at about 10 volts in. I did run it quite a long time yesterday until it started getting too hot. The voltage started dropping off because of the heat.
So i left it until it cooled down and tried it and the voltage came right back up to 125 volts at 20 volts in. Right I'm very reluctant to try anything else on it because i might loose what I have. So I might build another one to experiment with, so I have the original settings on this one for reference.
The extra set of brushes I can put in for testing because nothing else will be disturbed.
The way i have the motor-generator coil there doesn't seem to be as much arcing off the negative brush now. Ill have to check that out more and get back to you on that. But any way it up and running again.
There was a lot on intense thinking when these dc motors and generators were first conceived. That one page theory is running to many pages now. We are figuring just how these m-gs work. With some more time we will get it all figured out.
I see you are starting to raise some more interest in this project. Very good.
Yes, I might have someone else to build a motor then we can compare results. It is good that you can keep this first prototype and build a second unit as that then gives us three units that we have figures for.
How many amps are you running at 20V?
All this seems to be confirming a wave wound rotor but for now we can continue with the lap wound one as I want to recover energy from it and stop that arcing you have. While we are trying to reverse engineer the lockridge, if we find we can use a standard rotor, it makes it easier for people to produce these generators. Im not a purist, the self runner comes first. I suspect that my design of wave winding would be the most efficient followed by the wave winding of the old days with the lap winding being the worst. My method of wave winding is in fact the simplest winding possible but results in the most arcing, that is why it is the worst winding for a normal motor and probably the best for the lockridge.
So what I would like you to do is place a second set of brushes on your commutator set at 180 degrees from each other. Then we need to rotate them to the best recovery position and see what effect that has on our output. The problem is what to do with the collected energy and how do we prevent our input current following that path. If it is DC then we could direct it to a charging battery through a diode but I am worried about exploding the battery if it arcs in the plates. If it is AC and we use a bridge rectifier we could create a different path for our supply current reducing overall motor power
With my design of wave winding, these problems are eliminated completely and recovery from the armature is simple, but it is worth persisting with the lap wound armature to see if we can come up with something because the recovery brushes are common to both designs and if we can make a simple modification of a motor instead of a complete rewind, it is easier
Quote from: mbrownn on 2012.12.02, 22:01:41
Yes, I might have someone else to build a motor then we can compare results. It is good that you can keep this first prototype and build a second unit as that then gives us three units that we have figures for.
How many amps are you running at 20V?
41-45 Amps never got time to do any thing today. Hopefully this week i can start on another unit to be tested.
Wow, that is huge power. Are you still only able to light 3 100w bulbs with that? If so we have an efficiency of about 33% which is in the range expected for such a motor.
Quote from: mbrownn on 2012.12.04, 08:12:20
Wow, that is huge power. Are you still only able to light 3 100w bulbs with that? If so we have an efficiency of about 33% which is in the range expected for such a motor.
Haven't tried to light any more bulbs than three. Just a rough test with a volt meter off the armature running is a little over 29 volts dc.
The odd part now is most of the arcing is gone from the negative brush. So the motor coils need to be moved some against rotation to try get that effect back. Gets confusing when looking at it from the commutator end. because it turns the other way looking at it from the pulley end.
So that we are on the same page the generator coils I'm am using are the generator coils i sent you a picture of out of the starter-generator from that golf cart . At a ratio of average 10 volts in to 112 Volts out. Hope this clears this up. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Been following the Tinman at E/F. the heavier winding on the armature is for the starting. just like a regular starter. The starter=gen motors i have here from cub cadets, some of the armatures are built this way. most of those 2 regular slots make up 1 slot to carry the heavier load for starting. i also see that his armature is wound to the left. Which could be for positive ground. Didn't look to see if the brushes cover 2 slots or just one. Most likely 2 for starting that's why so many armature segments. the odd number is what i don't understand. Should be at least divisible by 2. there must be an offset in the timing there for the motor and gen sides so there not fighting each other when it generating. Will have to see how many comm segments in between the brushes and where the field poles are aligned up at and where the power comes in at and if its 90 or 180 from each other.
Just some of the things i was thinking about when looking at his pictures.
I think we need to get it on a scope to see what is happening.
Yes Tinman has an interesting generator.
Here is my reply so the others can see it
QuoteBoth wave and lap windings can have two windings in parallel so it does get difficult to identify them by just looking. I think that the drawing is just to identify that two different wires can be used and not to identify the size of the wire or it would be mentioned in the text.
The cap is probably to prevent arcing at the contact and so does not need to be large in capacity.
I was thinking it may be shunt wound myself after reading the pdf.
It is very common to have an odd number of segments on a commutator, there are several reasons why, one of which is to stop resonant oscillations building up high voltages and arcing. I am not sure but it may be the case that these are all lap wound. The imbalance between the armature and stator causes the current from the inductive kickback effects, to pass around the armature and dissipate instead of oscillate.
Even though there is an odd number of segments there is still an even number of magnetic poles when the armature is in operation.
We have not yet identified what type of winding you have.
Hiwater, who is building and testing my lockridge theories, is suggesting that your armature is similar to some of the starter/generators used on club cadet golf carts. I cant be sure what those armatures are either as I don't have one. He suggests that they are for carrying the heavy current when starting but I don't know how that is done. He also noted that your armature is wound the opposite direction to his and wondered if it was for positive grounding but I think it may be just built for a different direction of rotation. Maybe you could shed some light on this, Is it positive ground?
He also corrected me on the voltages he is getting from the device "So that we are on the same page the generator coils Im am using are the generator coils i sent you a picture of out of the starter-generator from that golf cart . At a ratio of average 10 volts in to 112volts out. Hope this clears this up. Sorry for the misunderstanding."
At the moment I am not advocating rewinding the armatures as we have not yet established what the windings are and new possibilities have exposed themselves under testing.
Personally I would keep that generator on your engine unmodified and get one of these delco starter generators that hiwater is using to experiment with.
@tachyon, Tinmanpower is correct, there is little information about this device other than from John Bedini and Peter Lindermann. The device that John has, is an attempt at reconstructing the original. We have little to go on but through simulations I have been able to come up with several possible solutions but what works on a simulator does not always work in practice. We are now putting the knowledge gained through simulation into practice on real motors. I believe I have solved the geometry problem of the stator and why the slots are in the case. This alone is evidence to me that this is a real device.
Now we are working on the armature possibilities starting with a lap wound armature even though I believe the original was wave wound. We have to prove what can be done and what can't as well as why. We have had an unexpected level of arcing in our armature so we have to test what this is and how to take advantage of it.
As of now we don't have a fully working device to show everybody and we could be following a wrong path so I don't want to send people on a wild goose chase. Once I have something established as a possible part of the device I will let you all know. We do have a very unusual motor generator that has some interesting characteristics that need further investigation.
I would watch the EFV 14 video, pay close attention to all the parts and what John says about what it did while running. There are a lot of clues there.
To connect up the scope. Does both the motor and gen wave need to be on the screen. Another question. Do the scope leads go to the input on the motor and output leads on the gen side. Dont know much about using one . But ill try my best. There should be something on the net i can find.
Quote from: Hiwater on 2012.12.06, 15:30:15
To connect up the scope. Does both the motor and gen wave need to be on the screen. Another question. Do the scope leads go to the input on the motor and output leads on the gen side. Dont know much about using one . But ill try my best. There should be something on the net i can find.
Ideally yes, then we can see any phase shift between the input and the output.
Yes one set of leads goes to the input and one to the output but here is where you have to be careful with a Variac. One of the leads from the Variac may be grounded, It should be marked, you must make sure that the ground of the scope lead is connected to this otherwise you will short your variac through the ground on your scope. The output will not be grounded so no problem there.
This grounding is the only difference you need to consider with a variac, so I will say it again. the probe needs to go to the live terminal on the variac and the other wire on the probe goes to the grounded output of the variac.
Quote
Originally Posted by Tinmanpower View Post
Hi MrBrown
I have built a few of this design. The first 2 or 3 never worked as i thought they would,until i worked out were i was going wrong.
My first designs were very much the same as Ufopolotics motor designs he is working on now.
I see that he has come a long way in what he is doing,but i believe there is a more effective way to achieve what he is trying to achieve.
Through many experiments with the standard ssg pulse motor,and modified circuits of my own design-i discovered how to totally reverse the Lenz force effect.
In fact when a load is drawn from the generator coils, torque is added and current consumption is reduced.
The generator coils must be separate from the drive coil's,except the flyback from the switching off of the run coils must be sent through the generator coils at just the right time.
The coils as wound on the rotor in a normal fashion will not achieve the effect needed. The coils need to be wound so as they are at a 90* angle to what the normal windings would be.
The easiest way to do this is by having the permanent magnets on the rotor,and the drive and generator coils as the stator.
I have found the drive coils and generator coils should be in a 18* v(this is the best angle i have found so far in my testing)
The open side should be the side that faces the rotor magnets.
With one input pulse,you get 3 generating output effects.
The system is not too complicated,but the results are well worth the time and effort.
The idea was to use the generator coils that when they have a load attached to them,would act as the second coil in a bucking configuration.
The system grew from there.
The next progress made was sending the kick back from the run coils,through the generator coil,s.
This resulted in a second bucking coil situation-but in reverse,where as the back EMF current produced by the run coils is sent back to the run battery via a FWBR hooked up in a certain way to the run coils.
What also must be kept in mind is that while all this is happening(the bucking effect),the magnetic field between the run and generator coils gains in strength-thus pushing harder on the rotor magnet's-or pull harder if in an attraction mode setup.
Triggering i have found is best if a reed triggered Darlington transistor is used to power the run coil's
A hall switch setup would also work well,although i have decided to stick with the reed's
In a 12 volt setup and using a 1k ohm between the reed and base of the transistor-no arcing of the reed is noticed.
I have not reproduced this anomalous Lenz effect myself yet but have started to research to identify the possible cause. In a paper that I believe was written by Dollard, I cant find it now, it talks about how the effect works under certain conditions.
One of these conditions is to do with coil saturation. The coil is to be operated where the saturation has gone past the linear part and is on the curve where it flattens out. That is, increasing current is no longer increasing coil saturation in a linear way as the core is almost fully saturated. The problem here is, to do that by pulsing requires relatively long pulse durations. This then gives us a problem in that the inductive kickback will not recover all the energy put into the pulse.
It seems to me that the Lockridge has the answer and it is the trifilar coil. This coil is wound around the motor thus pre-saturating the coils, now we can pulse the coils in this condition. This is speculation and has to be tested experimentally. It could be that the magnets on an SG is providing the pre-saturation.
Your method of moving the coils to 90 degrees is probably an improvement on the original Lockridge configuration but may not be necessary. It seems to be possible with the coils placed on the poles as in a normal motor but we have to remove the BEMF to do it.
The "Squires" video talks about how BEMF is created and suggests that it is the lateral movement of flux within the core of a coil. Turning the coils through 90 degrees as you do achieves this but there is a simpler, if not quite as effective way of doing it. What seems to confirm that I have succeed in reducing the BEMF is the fact that our motor is drawing huge current.
Normally this current would produce higher motor speed and torque but we do not see that as the generator circuit is absorbing the torque. The way our motor works means that it will not run effectively without the current being drawn through the generator coils and so it hides the increased torque although audibly you can here the motor is under load.
We are not pulsing the motor effectively yet and we do not have the trifilar coil so we cant test my third paragraph yet.
We are already experiencing acceleration under load but it is not this Lenz effect, it is in fact a transformer effect. The more current we draw out of the transformer, the more current the transformer draws from the supply. The more current that is drawn through a motor, the faster a motor goes.
I have not been following UFOs work and I understand he is doing good work, its just I don't have the time. The same is true of other threads so I apologize for not being up to date on that. I sometime chip in when I think something I am doing is relevant to what they are doing but it isn't always appreciated hehe
The only bucking in my motor is the generator coils, everything else is in attraction.
Your use of inductive kickback is interesting and I will take that into consideration when we get to that stage.
Haven't had time to finish working on the replication. Maybe this week end ill get some time to resume the work again.
Just to let you know what is transpiring.
Hiwater.
I was able to get some time in on the project. replicating something right in front of you isn't that easy. I did have to pull a couple of winds off the 2 motor coils, to make them narrow enough for the gen coils to fit in between. But then the gen coils when tightening the pole shoe down spread out away from the pole shoe dropping the voltage way down.
So i had to untape the gen coils and find some used cloth wrap from an original starter field coil and squeeze the one gen coil together and wind that cloth on there tight. Then I made a fixture to hold the gen field coil sides straight when i tightened down the field coil. This was left set over night to set in that position.
The next day i took the coil out of the temporary fixture an put in the replication generator. there was just enough movement to slide the gen coil back and forth about a 1/2 inch, where it wouldn't rotate and where it would rotate. The voltage out put was 51 volts ac.
Talk about a project. at some point i have to redo the gen coil pole shoes they have to be right tight to the sides to get any voltage if not 1/2 the voltage. also there cant be much angle on the pole shoe edges and the armature slots they have to be pretty much parallel. Other wise you only get 19-20 volts out of the coil.
So soon as i get time I will redo the other gen coil and put in the rep motor. then we can get along with other set of brushes and get you some scope shots of this thing running. So don't leave me stranded out here in the sticks. I know this is taking some time to do, but lately I haven't had that much time to work on this. But i haven't given up.
I wish I could be there to help, It can be frustrating especially when things don't work as well the second time. Keep at it when you can, we have made so much progress and with the discoveries you have made there is much more going on that I first thought. Our failures is where we learn the most so don't get put off by them.
Quote from: mbrownn on 2012.12.18, 23:13:44
I wish I could be there to help, It can be frustrating especially when things don't work as well the second time. Keep at it when you can, we have made so much progress and with the discoveries you have made there is much more going on that I first thought. Our failures is where we learn the most so don't get put off by them.
Why don't you fly over to help me. Love to have you. My wife's a good cook. Thank you.
I would love to and to visit Steve, one of my hero's but earning less than $10 a day that won't be on the cards for a long time ;D Hopefully next year things will be better because I am trying to start a new business. I have a financier which helps a lot but of course they make more out of it than I do. Anyway here is the web site http://bayanihanconstruction.yolasite.com/
I should be able to get a starter motor soon so I will see what I can do with that. I have been thinking about the problem of tuning the motor, It may be better if we rewind the rotor but if you only have one rotor, I don't want you to do it yet as we have to investigate what can be done with the standard windings.
I have been discussing some concepts with Tinman, below is my reply to him, I post it here because I think this may solve one of our problems on the output.
To date there is only you guys and Tinman that knows where I am going with this.
Quoteyes, I would love to read his book. I will update you and others on my research as time goes along, the premise goes like this.
Using a trifilar coil and a single diode, it may be possible to turn an AC signal into DC in a similar way to a bridge rectifier. The input coil receives the signal, the secondary is shorted through a diode and the third coil gives the output through a diode. The secondary is a compensation coil but only in one direction.
Now if we apply this to a motor, the primary is the motor power coil. The secondary is the inductive compensation coil. The output coil is wound on the inductive compensation coil. The Pulsed DC would result in AC being produced in the compensation coil and the output coil. The diodes allow current to flow in only one direction, so in one direction it is flowing in the output and in the other it is flowing in the compensation coil. through transformer actions between the two coils the the compensation current flows in the opposite direction in the output thus we have full wave DC on the output.
This is important to the lockridge, if it works, because we have AC being generated in the output coil as well as DC. Again, if this works we will have the combined generator action and rectified AC in the output coil instead of them fighting each other.
This is not the trifilar coil wrapped around the case but a bifilar coil and a single coil actually in the motor case. I have noticed that one of Gray's motors had this configuration too.
I don't know if this will work and I have never seen it talked about so I will have to build and test it.
Mike
Quote from: mbrownn on 2012.12.20, 01:35:04
I would love to and to visit Steve, one of my hero's but earning less than $10 a day that won't be on the cards for a long time ;D Hopefully next year things will be better because I am trying to start a new business. I have a financier which helps a lot but of course they make more out of it than I do. Anyway here is the web site http://bayanihanconstruction.yolasite.com/
I should be able to get a starter motor soon so I will see what I can do with that. I have been thinking about the problem of tuning the motor, It may be better if we rewind the rotor but if you only have one rotor, I don't want you to do it yet as we have to investigate what can be done with the standard windings.
Looks like you might have a full time job with those houses. They are really nice. Hope it all works out good for you.
There isn't much room for anything else in these generator cases but AIR. I did try a small transformer on the original motor-gen. But what I found out
there only has to be enough laminations to hold a small magnetic field or other wise every thing from the out put coil gets absorbed by the core. So i
put 2 different coils together and taped them tight . Think i got about 80 volts out of it. i was doing some testing to see what it would do. Been a
while ago now.
I under stand what your saying about the trifilar coil. On a side note I should have some more to report by the end of this coming week. Holidays coming up so should get some shop time.
;D yes, its an impressive website considering we haven't done 1 house yet, basically it is import and assemble, all made from steel, although we are doing some concrete panels too.
My computer went down, windows de registered itself and shut down, so I have installed a free form of linux called Gnewsense but don't really know what I am doing with it. I don't even know how to install a program.
I had a long discussion with erfinder about the new coil arrangement I have come up with, he is impressed and is confident it will work. what it means for us is we replace the generator coil with a bifilar coil or wind another coil over the top. Again it is another experiment to do with the stator. Erfinder says we have to eliminate the diode on the secondary if we can because of the impedance and that makes sense. The only way I can think of at the moment is to open circuit the coil but we can try with a diode first.
Well i finally finished the replication m-g. It was a tough to get to do what is supposed to do. but I now have 125 volts out of the gen coils and it speeds up when the 3 bulbs are turned on.
One of the problems was the slots in the case i am using. The other original one didnt have slots in the case. It had the 2 motor coils but 1-cw and 1- ccw was the only I could get to speed up under load and get the 125 volts out. This second on with the slots has to have 2 cw coils in.to get it to rotate cw. with the slots in and 1-cw and 1-ccw coil will rotate ccw. So the slots have some bearing on how the magnetic feild travels inside the case.
I believe also there doesnt have to be a very wide slot maybe about 1/8 inch. Mine are aboput a 1/4 inchwide. Once i had the generator coils formed and tight to the pole shoes it worked pretty good. I also had to find 2 identical motor coil to use along with the same pole shoes. that was a task in it self. Finally found a pair out of a detroit deisel engine starter with the right pole shoes. So now these can be ordered custom fit for any one to replicate.
Another thing is most of these generator cases are cold rolled with a gap in so i welde the seem part ways. The slots must be like an air gap in a transformer. I think you mentioned a few pages back.
There is still quite a lot of arcin off the trailing edge of the negative brush. it does go away some when a load is put on the gen side.
The next thing is to put the extera set if brushes in. Depends on how close to the other brushes they need to be. Looks like they might have to be reversed to get them to fit properly. Unless they will work a couple of comm sections away. I dont know.
For got to mention, about the pulsing technique. i do have one made to pulse once every revolution. Do you think that it should be pulsed quite a few times every revolution, to get a better charging effect.
Give me your opinion on this. i do have some extra commutators. I'm probably forgetting a few things. So if there something i haven't mentioned feel free to ask.
At least now , what we have can be replicated.
from initial starting it does rotate and pick up in speed and increases in speed when the bulbs are turned on. To get the true transformer effect the motor coils and gen coils can be moved some. Then it wont start rotating until a load is put on the gen coils. thought I would clear that up.
Right now i have to try and figure out how i can get those other brushes in there close enough. If they need to be right next to the original brushes. Might be a problem, unless i reverse the rotation and put it CCW. It might be easier. There would be more room. will have to wait and see, I guess.
On the bifilar coil is that the generator coil (1) or is this on both gen coils. the generator coils can be made bifilar. By dividing them in 1/2 and putting them back in place. The just 1/2 of the coil would be used for generation. Where would the other coil connect. I'm getting lost on this one.
This would most likely lower the out put voltage by 1/2. I would assume. To try and wind another coil around the ones in there cant be done, no room.They could be split like i said though. Then maybe could tie the ends together to make a series coil which might give out more volts. I did just that a couple of years ago , cant remember the results tough. I thought it removed some of the armature reaction. But don't quote me on it.
I do have some extra original stock gen coils maybe i can check it out again to see how it reacts.
Thanks for the update, yes the slots do have an effect on the magnetics, the FEMM showed that. It also showed that the greater the gap the better it should work. Is your experience different? The air gap I talked about is the gap between the armature and stator, If there is a coupling across the slots then the slot width will be critical and it isn't something I anticipated. We will just have to investigate it.
The direction of the windings is interesting because the G field, Kromray and many fettuchini generators have this same configuration (CW CCW and connected in series). The only problem is you cannot get measurable results, it will light bulbs and power motors but when you measure the volts and amps it does not add up to the obvious watts being produced. This is a method erfinder has been working on for some time. This may or may not be significant to the Lockridge, I don't know. Again we will just have to investigate it. Please watch the videos fettuchini has done on the kromray and G-field, you may see something in them that is significant.
The lower the impedance of the load, the less arcing I would expect on the armature, as the compensation action of the generator coil is more efficient, but we will need to make use of this build up of voltage so that leads us onto the brushes.
I would guess that the brushes need to be at least one segment away from the power brushes but there is more. If the brushes are wider than a segment, they will short two coils out on the armature, exacerbating the voltage build up. Even at one segment width this will be happening which to me offers us two possibilities. Either this is how the Lockridge produces its gain or we are using the wrong armature winding. Once again we will not know without testing so we will press ahead with this winding for now. If it is a different winding then we still need the brushes and I suspect they will be in exactly the same position so we have not wasted any effort. I would suggest that we do this before we start to pulse it.
On the pulsing, Lindermann has seen fettucini's machine and suggests it pulses once per rev in some of his posts however I do not believe this to be the case if we have to rewind the armature. If the armature is standard then it is possible. How are you going to pulse it? is it a separate commutator? How frequently it is pulsed and the duration will set the motor speed requirement, because we do not want to oversaturate the windings as our recovery will be less efficient.
The fact that we can replicate this is excellent because it will be a requirement in the scientific community. It takes this away from being a black art into being a science.
The rotation atributes is exactly as I anticipated but when we start to pulse it there will be no self starting, we will have to spin it to get it going.
I suspect that the bifilar arrangement will have to be on both output coils but there are many options here.
1) we use the 3 o'clock power coil as the compensation coil with the diode.
2) we power both the 9 and 3 o'clock coils and use one of the generator coils as the compensation coil with the diode (I don't think this is right)
3) only one of the generator coils is bifilar wound so that the compensation coil is included on it.
4) Both of the generator coils are bifilar wound so that they are both compensated. (my favourite)
5) this is a dead end and we are barking up the wrong tree ;D
If it is my preferred option then maybe we might not be able to power the 110v bulbs because you have less turns but only testing will show this. If this is the case we may have to reduce the number of turns on the power coils but obviously this will increase the current draw. Once we are pulsing this will be less of a problem.
At the moment I suspect our power and generator coils are in resonance, it would be nice to keep this configuration so it may mean we reduce the number of turns on the power coil by the same amount as we do on the generator.
I think you have a lot of work to do there and unfortunately no one else is doing it to help you however I did show erfinder your last posts and it has got him excited enough to start experimenting with universal motors
My chat with erfinder
Quote[8:05:28 PM] erfinder.: mike..
[8:05:39 PM] mbrownn1: hi
[8:05:48 PM] erfinder.: did you know that the universal motor doenst need field windings to operate?
[8:05:59 PM] mbrownn1: yes
[8:06:46 PM] mbrownn1: cool isnt it, its an induction motor
[8:06:53 PM] erfinder.: thanks for witholding that bit of info
[8:07:10 PM] mbrownn1: I thought you knew that
[8:07:14 PM] erfinder.: you free to voice chat...
[8:07:24 PM] erfinder.: i dont know everything...i just blab like i do...
[8:08:12 PM] mbrownn1: lol, farmhand posted about it
[8:08:49 PM] erfinder.: guess i missed that
[8:10:40 PM] mbrownn1: It just proves matt wrong
[8:10:58 PM] erfinder.: wrong about what..
[8:11:10 PM] mbrownn1: I think that ia why farmhand did it
[8:11:36 PM] mbrownn1: no transformer action in a motoer period
[8:12:08 PM] mbrownn1: motor
[8:12:35 PM] erfinder.: yep
[8:12:44 PM] erfinder.: its definitly transformer action
[8:12:54 PM] erfinder.: smart move on farmhands part
[8:13:03 PM] mbrownn1: yes
[8:13:11 PM] mbrownn1: I like farmhand
[10:09:48 PM] erfinder.: that guy working on that motor for you...
[10:10:19 PM] erfinder.: does he have a cap in the circuit somewhere around and or between the armature and field windings
[10:10:32 PM] mbrownn1: no not yet
[10:10:37 PM] erfinder.: hmmm
[10:10:58 PM] mbrownn1: we just working on the motor generator and transformer effects
At this point I sent him your last 3 posts
Quote[10:14:15 PM] mbrownn1: This was his latest update
[10:16:12 PM] erfinder.: hmmm
[10:21:41 PM] erfinder.: hes makiing me a believer ....
[10:21:51 PM] mbrownn1: lol
[10:22:12 PM] mbrownn1: It reacts in a very interesting way
[10:22:41 PM] erfinder.: just do me a favor
[10:22:54 PM] erfinder.: before you guys stray too far away from the norm....
[10:22:59 PM] erfinder.: investigate everything....
[10:23:06 PM] mbrownn1: yes
[10:23:12 PM] erfinder.: this two pole universal motor is showing some weird behaviour as well
[10:23:20 PM] mbrownn1: yes they do
[10:23:47 PM] mbrownn1: Its the most interesting motor of them all
[10:25:01 PM] mbrownn1: A universal motor will work as an induction motor two ways
[10:25:26 PM] mbrownn1: short the armature and power the field windings
[10:25:46 PM] mbrownn1: short the field windings and power the armature
[10:26:13 PM] mbrownn1: in both cases you can also draw power from one of the field windings
[10:26:39 PM] mbrownn1: If you do that you get a build up of power in the armature
[10:27:19 PM] erfinder.: you can draw power but its reflective..
[10:27:31 PM] erfinder.: you end up drawing from the source...
[10:28:04 PM] erfinder.: the goood thing is its phase shifted to the proper degree , and this load doesnt decelerate the device
[10:28:05 PM] mbrownn1: not sure what you mean .. you get transformer action and the build up in the armature
[10:28:31 PM] erfinder.: drawing from the field winding preforms a very specific function
[10:28:37 PM] erfinder.: the field current drops
[10:28:43 PM] mbrownn1: yes
[10:28:52 PM] erfinder.: you have less currnet moving in the field adn more in teh load you attached...
[10:29:00 PM] erfinder.: when the field current drops the device accelerates
[10:29:17 PM] mbrownn1: hehe interesting isnt it
[10:29:31 PM] erfinder.: its standard behaviour...
[10:29:45 PM] erfinder.: the thing is no one is taking advantage of the effect
[10:29:54 PM] mbrownn1: exactly
[10:30:08 PM] erfinder.: operating a unviresal like this makes him a rotary transformer
[10:30:16 PM] mbrownn1: yes
[10:30:20 PM] erfinder.: with the ability to accelerate when loaded
[10:30:25 PM] mbrownn1: yes
[10:30:32 PM] erfinder.: its not a true generator....
[10:31:03 PM] erfinder.: and in my opinion making it a gen will prove difficult owing to the phase angles not being where they should for proper generation...
[10:31:16 PM] erfinder.: now this is technically a blessing
[10:31:37 PM] erfinder.: if all were where it needs to be, we would have a mexican standoff
[10:31:42 PM] erfinder.: you dont have to take my word for it
[10:31:54 PM] erfinder.: simply get a cap and place it across the armature
[10:32:03 PM] erfinder.: pulse the armature with the cap in place..
[10:32:16 PM] erfinder.: you have a variable LC when you do that
[10:32:42 PM] erfinder.: next take the field and place a cap of half the capacity that you have across the armature
[10:32:53 PM] erfinder.: this will get them pretty close to hwere you want them to be
[10:33:08 PM] mbrownn1: Hmm not tried that
[10:33:21 PM] erfinder.: what will happen is as soon as the field is shorted by the cap the voltage in the field will shoot through the roof
[10:33:29 PM] erfinder.: depending on your input voltage
[10:33:57 PM] erfinder.: you can have 200+ in the field windings manifesting,
[10:34:14 PM] erfinder.: this higher emf has its price, the supply is forced to deliver more current to the device
[10:34:40 PM] erfinder.: this effect if reversed is of great pracitical application
[10:35:22 PM] erfinder.: its generating a higher potential thanks to the cap in field coil circuit
[10:35:50 PM] erfinder.: ive noted an increase of 100:1 in potential just by adding the cap
[10:35:59 PM] mbrownn1: wow
[10:36:09 PM] erfinder.: boring i know....
[10:36:13 PM] mbrownn1: lol
[10:36:48 PM] mbrownn1: I think the universal motor is the most underestimated motor
[10:37:26 PM] mbrownn1: It shows sighns of gains no matter which way you use it except the normal way
[10:37:37 PM] erfinder.: its unfortunate that the brushes are in the wrong spot ...
[10:37:44 PM] erfinder.: cant do the generator over motor
[10:37:44 PM] mbrownn1: yes
[10:37:48 PM] erfinder.: so that the gen causes rotation
[10:37:58 PM] erfinder.: cant have everything
[10:38:06 PM] mbrownn1: thats why you need a 4 pole
[10:38:21 PM] erfinder.: not really
[10:38:22 PM] mbrownn1: then move the brushes through 90 degrees
[10:38:35 PM] erfinder.: you dont need a four pole
[10:38:52 PM] erfinder.: depends on what one is after
[10:39:05 PM] erfinder.: you can simulate 90° phase shift by adding a cap
[10:39:09 PM] mbrownn1: you can do it with 2 but there is a mechanical imballance
[10:39:09 PM] erfinder.: thats what ive done...
[10:39:21 PM] mbrownn1: ahhh
[10:39:24 PM] erfinder.: and thats why i said if it can be reversed it would be of immense practical value!
[10:39:46 PM] erfinder.: the 100:1 increase in voltage is GENERATOR ACTION!!!!!!!!!
[10:39:57 PM] mbrownn1: lol
[10:40:09 PM] mbrownn1: not sure but its a big gain
[10:41:56 PM] erfinder.: ;)
Erfinder did not really see the value in the concept of the Lockridge but the results you are getting has really woken him up. He has been working on motors which have the G field concepts in it as well as other things he does not want me to talk about. Trust me I think he is going to produce an overunity generator sooner or later but it will be different to the lockridge. We spend hours discussing various things which helps me figure this out, usually he disagrees to some extent but now a light has lit up in his head ;D He is the only one that I know is taking our work seriously. Peter Lindermann has gone silent.
I haven't really tried a very narrow slot in the case. just from observing what was going on I figured that the slots might not have to be that wide.
Still haven't figured out how to put those extra brushes in. Might have to figure out how to make some streamlined brush holders so I can get them close enough to each other.
As far as pulsing goes, the one i made was i pulse per revolution. I will probably rework that to fit the shaft and try it again just to verify how it works. Then use an old commutator to add more pulses per revolution. HOW DO YOU TELL IF THE COIL GETS OVERSATURATED???????
I can space the pulsing unit so it comes on or off most any where on the face of the field pole.
I read through the conversation you had with Erfinder. Two brilliant minds. One thing that stood out to me in that conversation was the power in the armature. The armature and the extra brushes seem to be part of the key here.
A couple days ago i started trying to put a armature designed for 110 volts into a housing with a set of generator coils. The armature has a ring on the shaft that is grounded where the 110 volts is taken off for the output. It works the way it was intended, when putting a load on it , it really drags the motor down. Since then my knowledge has increased so i thought i would give it a try again with a different set of generator coils. The thing i don't like is that it spins at such high rpms. That way there would be 2 places to take power from the ring and the extra set of brushes. Just an idea i had that might be worth pursuing to see the out come. Ill keep in touch.
My gut instinct tells me that the slot will have to be 5/16ths to 3/8ths wide to prevent leakage of the flux sue to the saturation levels that we will be operating at.
I need to correct myself here, the coil can be fully saturated or not fully saturated, not over saturated as such as it will leak flux.
If the coil is not fully saturated the flux density will increase until saturation occurs, the density of this saturation is proportional to the current times the amps. The core, if made of iron, is the same except there is a point reached when the iron cannot hold any more lines of flux within it. at this point the flux leaks out. The plot of saturation starts linear and then levels off with a curve. I understand the best place to run our motor is on this curve (squires video).
If our core reaches saturation the efficiency of the transformer action will drop off, It is possible that at 30A we may be some way to that point although starters do draw 100s of amps so I think we are ok.
A DC motor and a normal AC motor both operate with the iron saturated to the level set by the ampere turns but below the irons limit on saturation. Pulsing is different, the voltage jumps up vertically and the amps ramp up after this with the saturation trying to maintain balance with the current. just before the equilibrium is met, we want to turn off the voltage so that the inductive kickback makes the current ramp down. The plot of the voltage is a square wave and the current is a triangle with the steepest slope being on the ramp up, this is the opposite to the normal situation. As the power in the ramp down is based upon the iron saturation being dissipated we want to pre saturate the core to some extent before we ask it to do this therefore more energy can be obtained in the desaturation. This pre saturation is done by the trifilar coil that is wound around the motor, now when the pulse occurs it takes less energy to to reach the point where we want to turn off the pulse. Our iron will be reletively close to the saturation limit before we pulse, this reduces inductance and allows high current. at the point we switch off we have all the energy in the pulse and the pre saturation available for the inductive kickback. After this has happened, in the off time the trifilar coil re saturates the core in preparation for the next pulse.
Have you seen the squires video?
Thanks for the complement, but I am not as quick thinking as erfinder, I am more plodding but very tenacious. He is very excited about that power in the armature, I just think how can I recycle it.
Keep trying those different armature configurations, you may find something, the slip ring should enable you to draw off the power in the armature but your generator coil voltage will drop. This may be a better solution than the second set of brushes. Do some measurements both for the armature and the generator coils, don't forget to do volts and amps.
BLACK TAPE------This will make you pull your hair out. I found out that you cant wrap the generator coils with it, It must shield the copper wire from the out side light force charging those coils. Took me some time to figure this out, it act like a shield. soon as it took it off my voltage come up to where it was supposed to be. So I used some old cloth from another coil and wrapped the Gen coils. Then used a small piece of black tape to hold it in place.
I did get that other motor going, but that slip ring I believe is grounded at the center of the sine wave. I get nice white light out of it on 2 bulbs in parallel. Then the motor slows down. Withe the bulbs in series is better but the brightness suffers and the motor doesn't slow down as much. Very little in fact. Iv gone as far as I can with it for now.
So I'm going back to my replication #2 motor to make a pulsing unit for it. Still looking for some other brush holders that I can use in there. Slow process but I want to go thru all the avenues.
Thanks for explaining the core saturation to me. I'm beginning to understand some of this. By either moving the brush holder or by rotating the case we can designate how much coil saturation we want on the field poles. More likely where it stops saturating.
No I haven't seen the squires video yet. soon though. its just about time for that. just the brushes and pulsing unit left to do.
I like the theory on the trifilar coil . I'm going to read it over a few more times so that i can relate it to the field poles.
So there might be some questions on that. Thanks.
Interesting, electrical tape is a dielectric, that is, it does not allow static to pass through it as well as just insulating. It could be that there is a static build up in this device, dare I say radiant? ;D
I have been working on the mechanical pulser. just about have that finished. Need to file off the extra JB weld and fit it to the shaft.
I think I figured out how to do the other 2 brushes to get them on the commutator section next to the other ones. Its going to be a tight fit, but it should work. Have to just move the 2 that are the original ones over 1 section and grind off some of the brush support on all of the holders to get them close enough and narrow up the 2 auxiliary brushes to fit on the comm sections. The angle they lay at, next to one another there's only room enough to slide a couple pieces of paper through. So it is a tight fit. the other 2 brush holders will have to be turned upside down. So hopefully it will work for what we need to test out. will let you know when I get that done.
Yes that black tape was a puzzler. What i didnt understand was why the feild pole wouldnt charge the coil. So there must be some kind of electricity inside the housing that helps charge those generator coils.
I believe there is a lot of radiant energy coming off that armature. Will see what happens when i get those other brushes in.
Best not to go arround shouting radiant, the scientific community don't really like that term and we also have to prove it. A pic of the brushes would be nice.
I might not be n line for a week or so, splitting up with the missis
Sorry to hear about you and the Mrs. Hope the transition goes OK.
Haven't got much of anything done in the shop. Just have the one brush In is all. haven't got the pulsing unit finished yet either. I've been doing some research in to the 3rd brush on some of these older generators. Quite interesting how it is used to control the amps in the armature with the cutout. So maybe if time permitting i can try some experiments this week using the 3rd brush. i want to see how it acts under load. Whether or not it will slow the motor down or not and try adjusting it in different places. So that's all i have for now.
Keep up the good work, although I believe the armature and brush arrangement is different, we have to eliminate all other possibilities to be sure.
I posted the FEMM picture on the lockridge thread but alas no response so it seams we are still alone doing this.
Update from Pault
QuoteSubject: scope traces
Hi Mike,
I've been out of the loop for a while. Got some time today, but will be out of the loop again for another week or two.
I've attached a scope trace that I think you wanted.
2-pole universal motor, bottom coil disconnected.
Pulsed at about 1000 RPM (16Hz) using 555's, 33% duty cycle and a relay. If I have time, I'll post all of the details to EF tomorrow. Otherwise, when I return in a week or so (remind me :-).
Top trace is across the modified motor. 50V/div.
Middle trace across the 2nd coil (disconnected, acting in transformer mode). 5V/div
Bottom trace is the dual-555 driver circuit hitting a relay, switching 24VDC pulses across the motor (major sparking across the contacts of the relay).
400V spikes on the motor side. 10X less on the 2nd coil side.
I also did scope shots before modifying the motor and not much was different (400V spikes). The results were essentially the same as the top trace. (The 400V spikes are barely visible, but they are there).
pt
QuoteHi Paul
Interesting, looking at the scope shots I would say you need pulses of no more than half the duration you have, probably 1/3rd. As the motor runs on current we might need current traces. To do this you just place the scope in series by placing a shunt resistor in series with the coil and measure that.
These 400v spikes will be passed into the armature via transformer action and will charge the armature up. This is how we are getting the voltage increase in the armature I believe but it may be that these spikes originate in the armature too.
Keep me updated
Mike
Been away from the project for a while. I believe Pault may be right . the armature does charge up. Really noticeable when removing the power
from the motor coils all kinds of sparks on the brushes as it starts to decelerate.
Yes, I believe it will be proportional to the impedance of the load
Just to say, i'm following along (though infrequently) and hope you get to enjoy the new life ahead Mike.
Looking back, my own divorce was such a fantastic thing to do...not to make light of it, but you know where you wish to be and so does she. Raise a glass to a positive change :)
Not many glasses though, you'd not see the scope readings correctly !
Thanks slider, for the upbeat message, believe me it helps.
Its been a while since i had any real time to work on this project. Yesterday i completed the pulsing unit, I started on a while back. what a disaster.
it drew way too much amps and couldn't get any speed out of the motor. So i made another one. i got the speed up but the pulsing unit got hot as could be without melting.
I can see that it probably has to be pulsed as many times as you can find out how to do. So the next one is going to be with a regular commutator on the shaft. To see how that works out.
During the mean time, i thought I would connect up a capacitor to the in put to see how it would react. Still using AC and a diode on the power side.
To my surprise that motor took off and increased in rpm dramatically. Had to shut it down. So I put in a switch where I can put the capacitor in and
out of the circuit. So I run it again and checked the rpm with and without the capacitor in there is a 3000 rpm gain. It runs at about 5400 rpms. So reduced the input voltage and the running amps came down to 17 compared to 24-29 amps otherwise.
Funny thing is after i run it on the cap and switch it out of the circuit it stays at the same speed and amperage.
This was late yesterday afternoon so i was kind of excited to see this happen. So going to do some more tests today to see how long the rpm stays up and amps stay down. And see what the generator coils do. So will let you know this evening.
If your using a pulse circuit start at high frequency to limit the amps and then reduce the frequency as you nead.
Where did you put the cap in the circuit? was it my gray circuit you used? I expect a gain in speed and voltage on the gray circuit.
The advantage to commutation is it is self regulating, can handle huge power and does not have a problem with voltage until we get into the kv range
As speed increases the current will come down just as when frequency increases current comes down. We have been told that the lockridge ran at about 6000RPM so we are getting in the range of speed we need.
Try to do a volts/amps reading on the input and output on each test.
Great work
The pulsing unit I had made was a mechanical one. I made 3 in all. The one pulse per revolution worked best as was the easiest to make. It does work but i had some flaws in it. so will resume work in that area with another one.
Ok, the g-m set i tested today had all 4 coils in. The one in the last post only had 2 coils in from a stock GM generator and was wired different.
Tests on the one today. Without the capacitor Input 15 volts dc Amps 29 Gen coil out put 124 volts AC
With capacitor had to drop volts back to 10 volts dc ( otherwise motor would overspeed, wants to run over 9000 rpms) with increase in rpm input volts climb up to 48 volts DC.
So I drop the input volts back to about 10 volts dc to get the rpm down and the amps shoot through the roof over 40 amps.
My meter goes offline, won't register. but the motor runs free and doesn't heat very much at all.
Also at this time there is nothing coming out of the 2 generator coils.
If I remove the cap then it charges out the gen coils. the cap is connected to the power live wire and to ground.
Ill have to check on each side of the capacitor tomorrow to see what readings i get. We are getting the amps to run this thing with low voltage. That what surprised me. By lowering the voltage the amps increase. I believe that's what we need. At least it an indication of what needs to be done at this time.
It seems to be running way advanced being no charging effect with use of the capacitor.So the coils will have to moved to compensate for this, then see if it will charge out the gen coils.. Lots of more tests to do. So stick with me.
I dont know what circuit you are using so i cant help, what is your circuit?
Did you take a look at Tinmans rotary transformer?
There are many aspects that are exactly the same as what we are doing.
Quote from: mbrownn on 2013.02.18, 00:51:50
I dont know what circuit you are using so i cant help, what is your circuit?
Did you take a look at Tinmans rotary transformer?
There are many aspects that are exactly the same as what we are doing.
After your suggestion, I just now looked through Tinman's posts. Looks like he doing close to what we are doing. I still think we need 4 coils to accomplish this. Because you need to split the motor drive and the gen side so there's not much BEMF when this is under load. In stock generators the big field poles cover close to 6 slots on each side leaving 1 slot on each side for the neutral on each side in between the field poles. Total of 14 altogether. The big wide field poles are a motor generator on one field pole in a stock gm DC generator. That is why they have to be split in to 2 field poles each. one for motor and one for the generator and positioning them on the armature. in there perspective quadrants. Two for generating and 2 for motorizing. I've tried many different ways using the regular field poles. It just don't work for me that way. besides you will never get the higher voltage out that way.
Unless you try it the way Tinman is doing by using 2 different wire sizes. ! for the gen and 1 for the motor circuit. Which might be harder to do. Then you could raise the voltage up quite a bit. But i think that part of the trifilar coil is for. Understanding these armatures is a bit tricky. Because it has to do with magnetic north an the new neutral planes for the motor and generating unit all in one armature case. It took me a long time to get this idea through my head to understand it. The only way that happened was continuing to work it through to get to where we are today with it.
Yes there's more to do, but we are on the right track. So the process continues. The FUTURE doesn't come easy there is a price to pay its called PERSEVERANCE.
I'm not using any regular circuit. I just tried a capacitor 80 volts 27000uf cap in the in put side (power side) on the m-g set. It is connected to where the power supply is connected to the m-g and ground. That's all. I'm still using the variable transformer and diode until i get my other pulsing unit made out of another commutator. Which i have started on.
When using the capacitor it drops the amperage down going to the motor. I reads 6.72-7 amps on the motor side. The capacitor side is 29 amps. The motor speeds up so much that I need to turn the voltage down to reduce the motor rpm. But now the WHATS HAPPENING PART It does not charge out the generator coils until I switch the capacitor out of the power going to the motor. There must not be any magnetic field on the armature using the capacitor even though it shows there is 7 amps going to the armature. Will try to work on this more today to figure it out.
Hope this explains it better for you.
If i understand what you have done, you have converted the half wave rectified AC to pure DC. This will eliminate the transformer action and so reduce the output dramatically. With no transformer action you do not require current for the transformer so the amps drop. Try running the device off a battery and I am sure you will get similar results.
We need sharp switching pulsed DC to get what we want, the half wave rectification is the poor mans way of seeing some of the results we can get.
Hi Guy's.
Well i have been slowly making my way through the thread here and there is some very interesting reading indeed.
One thing i have found to be a very important factor in this type of setup, is the direction of the current you draw your load from on the secondary side.
Always remember that if we load the output coils in one direction-it will produce a magnetic field within the core.
If we load the current from the output coils in the other direction-the magnetic field will be the opposite field.
Quote from: mbrownn on 2013.02.18, 23:08:40
If i understand what you have done, you have converted the half wave rectified AC to pure DC. This will eliminate the transformer action and so reduce the output dramatically. With no transformer action you do not require current for the transformer so the amps drop. Try running the device off a battery and I am sure you will get similar results.
We need sharp switching pulsed DC to get what we want, the half wave rectification is the poor mans way of seeing some of the results we can get.
That must be whats happening, Still working on the extra commutator for switching. The material the comm sections are made of are hard to solder wires on to. Think I have it figured out now. Thanks for the reply.
Yes we need to try this.
At this stage I am not ruling anything out hence we are still using a lap wound armature. there is much to learn.
Hello MBrownn.
I have been working on the pulsing unit attached to an extended shaft on the m-g. I just cant seem to get it to work properly. Oh it works, but not the way i want it to. The motor rpm slows way down and the voltage drops way down.
The best stabilized rpm is 1900-2200 rpm, at that speed about 30 volts.What I was trying to accomplish was get 60 cycle in to the power side to drive the motor and keep the rpms and voltage up. The on-off time has to be just about perfect to keep this action up. In which I haven't succeeded.
this leads me to believe the switching is done inside the the m-g with the commutator on the armature.-----It works fine like you say with the poor mans way like we have been doing during the testing. The last try was 1 cycle per revolution and was trying to maintain rpm at at least 3000 rpms. Soon as I connect in the pulsing unit the rpm and volts gradually slow down. I did try to align the switching process with the brushes in side the motor. Still same thing.
So then I attached a flywheel to the pulley end on the shaft to try to keep the rpms in a forward motion which did help some. But then because of the narrow comm sections wouldn't deliver enough rpm right close to 2900 to keep running. So then i put in an armature with wide comm slots which would bring up the rpm but then the voltage suffered.
So back to square ONE. I then found an old PWM I had which might have worked, but in the process of spinning the motor up the one hot wire grounded out an that burned out in a flash. So I'm right back where I started. this is the reason that I believe the switching is done on the original commutator inside the m-g. Looks like we have to pull that RABBIT out of the hat again. I'm going to try and locate another PWM motor controller that may do the job we need. Any suggestions MIKE? Thanks?
Yes, I believe that the switching was done with the internal commutator but that requires a wave wound armature. If the EFV14 video is to believed then the PWM circuit never worked for them, OK electronics have advanced so I am sure it can be done that way.
Lets stick to the K.I.S.S. principal, Keep It Simple Stupid hehe. Its time to rewind an armature alternatively you can continue with the lap wound armature and use PWM.
Either way you chose you need to remember this, the higher the frequency, the higher the voltage required. Now with the original device I believe it was the trifilar coil that supplied the voltage but for now you can use the transformer.
Quote from: Hiwater on 2013.02.26, 15:21:21
Hello MBrownn.
I have been working on the pulsing unit attached to an extended shaft on the m-g. I just cant seem to get it to work properly. Oh it works, but not the way i want it to. The motor rpm slows way down and the voltage drops way down.
The best stabilized rpm is 1900-2200 rpm, at that speed about 30 volts.What I was trying to accomplish was get 60 cycle in to the power side to drive the motor and keep the rpms and voltage up. The on-off time has to be just about perfect to keep this action up. In which I haven't succeeded.
this leads me to believe the switching is done inside the the m-g with the commutator on the armature.-----It works fine like you say with the poor mans way like we have been doing during the testing. The last try was 1 cycle per revolution and was trying to maintain rpm at at least 3000 rpms. Soon as I connect in the pulsing unit the rpm and volts gradually slow down. I did try to align the switching process with the brushes in side the motor. Still same thing.
So then I attached a flywheel to the pulley end on the shaft to try to keep the rpms in a forward motion which did help some. But then because of the narrow comm sections wouldn't deliver enough rpm right close to 2900 to keep running. So then i put in an armature with wide comm slots which would bring up the rpm but then the voltage suffered.
So back to square ONE. I then found an old PWM I had which might have worked, but in the process of spinning the motor up the one hot wire grounded out an that burned out in a flash. So I'm right back where I started. this is the reason that I believe the switching is done on the original commutator inside the m-g. Looks like we have to pull that RABBIT out of the hat again. I'm going to try and locate another PWM motor controller that may do the job we need. Any suggestions MIKE? Thanks?
Hi Mike,
Mr. Brownn suggested that we could probably help each other out here,as i am in the process of building something quite similar-although i am going more for reversing magnetic field's with mine.
So i thought i would post this link to a PWM that i bought myself.
It is a very good PWM and has more features than what is listed on the page bellow.
The frequency is also adjustable(even while being used),with a range between 400Hz to 4KHz.
Hope this helps out.
http://www.altronics.com.au/index.asp?area=item&id=K6005
Brad
Quote from: mbrownn on 2013.02.27, 03:18:13
Yes, I believe that the switching was done with the internal commutator but that requires a wave wound armature. If the EFV14 video is to believed then the PWM circuit never worked for them, OK electronics have advanced so I am sure it can be done that way.
Lets stick to the K.I.S.S. principal, Keep It Simple Stupid he he. Its time to rewind an armature alternatively you can continue with the lap wound armature and use PWM.
Either way you chose you need to remember this, the higher the frequency, the higher the voltage required. Now with the original device I believe it was the trifilar coil that supplied the voltage but for now you can use the transformer.
Thanks for your reply. I cleaned up my shop yesterday. So I can at least walk around in there now. took all day to get that done. Ill probably try the PWM method first while thinking of rewinding the armature. There's a motor rewind er about 30 miles from here. I'm going to go talk to him one day soon to get some pointers on these armatures. just to pick his brain a little. He may even offer to help rewind it. but for the time being Ill try the PWM and transformer. To see where that leads us.
Thanks Tinman for the suggestion on the PWM.
I did read through the rotary transformer posts. Looks good as to what you're doing. We are all a part of the puzzle. All the effort put in to these M-gs will bring us victory.
There so many variables to go through and endless experimentation. At times it frustrating, But then i say to my self. Will that didn't work and figure out why. That's progress and then on to the next step. So we are eliminating what don't want to work.
Yes, we do need to get everything turning the right way inside that case for the motor to accelerate under load. We have achieved that. next is recirculating the energy. that is the common goal. So keep up the Good work and keep pushing forward. thanks again for your reply.
HI again MBrownn. Nothing to update. Since the last post. I kind of put this on hold until I either get enough money to have this armature rewound or tackle it my self.
So it just been sitting on the bench for the last month and a half. I have made 4 replicas of what we do have. So that i have enough to experiment with. When I get the armature done. Te replicas all work the same. So that part is pretty well worked out. Next big step is the armature. Then I think the rest will all fall into place.
You may have to give me some advice on this armature again. I have two of them that I stripped the wires off from. Begging me to do something with them.
Hows your housing project coming along. Got to go plow some more snow, got another 11 inches of the white stuff coming this weekend.
So that all for now.
Hiwater
I haven't anything to update other than some activity has taken place on the lockridge thread on the energetic forum.
We can have two plans of attack for moving forward.
1) rewind the armature and start recovery via the second set of brushes.
2) wind a trifilar coil on the motor. A lot of trial and error work here.
Quote from: mbrownn on 2013.04.14, 23:01:52
I haven't anything to update other than some activity has taken place on the lockridge thread on the energetic forum.
We can have two plans of attack for moving forward.
1) rewind the armature and start recovery via the second set of brushes.
2) wind a trifilar coil on the motor. A lot of trial and error work here.
If i rewind the armature. I believe it to be wound directly across (180) from each commutator section. Or would you think that it could be that the windings are 180 and the commutator sections at 90 degrees from the armature windings. Guess it could be done either way. What do you think. Never done this before. So I am looking to my mentor for (your) opinion. Thanks.
I think it is your preference, normally the windings are at 180 degrees with the commutator segments set at 90 degrees from the coils and this is how I did it.
Thanks. Soon as i get some wire. I will give it a try. I do have some smaller diameter wire I might practice with first. To see how it turns out.
Was there quite a lot of sparking on your commutator, when you run yours. From some of the other experiments that i had done there was a lot of sparking that could be put to use. I'm sure it was up in the hundreds of volts.
Yes, quite a bit of arcing and my supply was only 3V so I could keep the current down
Quote from: mbrownn on 2013.04.17, 23:41:22
Yes quite a bit of arcing and my supply was only 3v so I could keep the current down
OK thanks. Im going to give it a try and see what develops out of this. This is a first for me. I have some smaller heater motors. Im going to try it on
one of those first to see to see how it reacts. They look like they would be easy to do. Have the right size wire for those. So hopefully i can get this done in the next few days.
I haven't had much success in rewinding these armatures. I tried 3 of them all failures. One I had shorted, the other 2 wont turn. They have a magnetic field but wont rotate.
Question --- Do you think the armature wire is to be cut off after being connected to commutator segments or continue to the next set of coils with the end of that wire connecting to the commutator winding where I started when all the windings are in place on the armature.
Question --- Windings? Do you think they are all wound the same direction. I was doing one cw and the other side CCW. It locks up then.
Going to leave it till hear back from you. I'm burnt out on armatures.
Each coil was separate so the wire is cut off. All my coils were clockwise on the armature. Remember you need to connect to the commutator segments at 90 degrees to the coil to get the timing. Winding clockwise and anticlockwise will cause the armature to oscillate instead of turn although it may set up an interesting bucking arrangement.
Quote from: mbrownn on 2013.04.29, 23:35:43
Each coil was separate so the wire is cut off. All my coils were clockwise on the armature. Remember you need to connect to the commutator segments at 90 degrees to the coil to get the timing. Winding clockwise and anticlockwise will cause the armature to oscillate instead of turn although it may set up an interesting bucking arrangement.
OK, i can see why the armature was chattering,because of the 2 opposite wound coils. I did have the segments 90 degrees to the coils.
I had my wires one continuous wire. So there's part of the problem. Another question that i just thought of is --- after the first 2 initial coils.
The next 2 coil windings i would assume now that they are laid in the armature slot next to the first and second winding just one slot over going in a clock wise manner. I had mine set up in the middle of the first and second winding armature slots.
STILL IN THE LEARNING PROCESS.
Thanks,
mbrownn
Something else came to mind after posting. What kind of speed did you get out of your rewound armature, by cutting the wire off at the comm bars. Seem like that the armature would sacrifice quite a lot of rpms. By running one long continuous wire to all the bar sections wouldn't we get more of a back spike or does that take away from the wave winding.
I might be able to go in on a lap wound an find the 2 wires that have continuity on the bars that are 90 degrees to the winding and cut them.
This may work for what we need. Have you ever tried this. Don't know what kind of a winding that would be then.
Quote from: Hiwater on 2013.04.30, 15:05:45
OK, i can see why the armature was chattering,because of the 2 opposite wound coils. I did have the segments 90 degrees to the coils.
I had my wires one continuous wire. So there's part of the problem. Another question that i just thought of is --- after the first 2 initial coils.
The next 2 coil windings i would assume now that they are laid in the armature slot next to the first and second winding just one slot over going in a clock wise manner. I had mine set up in the middle of the first and second winding armature slots.
STILL IN THE LEARNING PROCESS.
Thanks,
mbrownn
Not sure what you mean
Quote from: Hiwater on 2013.04.30, 15:26:26
Something else came to mind after posting. What kind of speed did you get out of your rewound armature, by cutting the wire off at the comm bars. Seem like that the armature would sacrifice quite a lot of rpms. By running one long continuous wire to all the bar sections wouldn't we get more of a back spike or does that take away from the wave winding.
I might be able to go in on a lap wound an find the 2 wires that have continuity on the bars that are 90 degrees to the winding and cut them.
This may work for what we need. Have you ever tried this. Don't know what kind of a winding that would be then.
On 3V i was getting 1500+ rpm, I didn't have recovery and the armature was arcing quite a lot even at 3V
Quote from: mbrownn on 2013.04.30, 23:25:47
Not sure what you mean
What i was trying to say was each coil arrangement, must be started the next slot over from the first and second winding set. Don't know if that helps any or not.
Those recovery brushes must be picking up hundreds of volts which have a negative sign going to a capacitor then coming out of the capacitor
with a positive sign for the motor run.
Going to try find some more info on the wave wound armatures. I did find out some of the Old Model t cars had a wave wound armature on the long shaft generators for more voltage. Been trying too locate one of these. But haven't as of yet. I believe those were all in series with the end of the coil windings connected to the beginning of the first winding on the same comm bar. so all of the windings would be in series with the armature.
I did some calling this am to a couple of rewind shops . Do you remember when we first started talking about the armature being STAR wound.
I cant recall what the reason was that the armature may have been star wound. If you can remember can you relate this again to me. I did find a place that can rewind the armature in a STAR winding.
He says they do it all the time on tractors and equipment using generators. So i need that info from you. Then any questions that you might have that i should ask him.
I can also Give you his e-mail address if you want so maybe finally get this worked out . He does know some about the wave winding also.
non interconnecting Star winding is the term I used at first before I was familiar with wave winding so don't let that mislead you. Ideally we want it to be non interconnecting, that is each set of segments on the commutator is connected only to one set of coils. Most wave windings have groups of coils connected together but each group is separated from the next, so i understand.
I still don't understand exactly what your trying to explain?
I'm starting to understand a little about this armature winding some. what i see is that it would be a pulse motor. should have known that from a year ago when we were talking about it then.
After putting in the first 2 windings --- trying to figure out where the next 2 go is the problem that I'm having. I think i have some of that figured out.
As time permits will continue to work on that.
I do have one of the extra brush holders in, but the second one is a problem, not much room to work with and the angle is pretty critical there to get to lay in where its supposed to for it too work properly. So another area that has to be worked on also. If there are questions or directions feel free to speak out.
keep up the good work, it will be very interesting when you get to test this.
Just to let everyone know I'm still here, I lost my job so i don't get access to the net as often hehe
Oh man :-\
You've had a few problems and deserve a change in life.
Perhaps it can allow a change, for the directions you really want to go forward with though, as in the silver lining of a bad run. I sincerely hope so and wish you the best O0
Thanks for the kind words
Good to see your still around. In survival mode any way. Hope you find another job something that you enjoy doing. My self i haven't done any thing on the project since i last posted. I did talk to the rewinder I mentioned about. He has rewound armatures to make pulse motors. He said they are slower starting but once they get going they fly. He wants me to come down and see him. soon as work slows down some i am planning to do just that. He is more than willing to help. Right now its the time thing. Not enough hours in a day. So soon as i get time I'm going to resume work on the project again.
If any thing develops Ill keep you informed. Have a GREAT day.
Its always worth keeping your eye on the energetic forum thread as well as this one http://imhotepslabs.freeforums.org/the-lockridge-device-t204.html
There are people interested, we need them to replicate what you have done.
Quote from: mbrownn on 2012.10.02, 03:23:52
The extra energy comes from the inductive kickback and magnetism,...
Some of the mechanical power is consumed by BEMF just as in any motor but as the vast majority of this BEMF occurs in a coil that is separate to the power coil we can call it EMF or generated current. Of course these coils coils be made bigger to match the motive power and then there is no need for an external generator at all.
If we do not make use of the motive force of the magnetism we are wasting it, this device combines a transformer with a motor so it is already using non rotational methods. The rotation is the generating function so it is a requirement, all the functions are standard physics and accepted as normal functions it is just that combining them in one device is not done. People do not consider that you can have a transformer that is a motor and generator at the same time and people also do not consider recycling the current, this is why we fail. We have to do all these at the same time.
Quote from: mbrownn on 2012.04.18, 17:10:54
Now back to the lockridge device. Back in the days of WWII these devices were not available so whoever invented the lockridge device took a Bosch dynamo with a wave wound rotor and cut every other winding on the rotor. he then adjusted the brushes so that the motor pulsed using only two brushes mounted close but not exactly 180 degrees apart. The other two brushes were then mounted so that they made contact just as the power brushes disconnected from the segments. This way we recover the reactive power in the pulse. the motor field windings are mounted at 180 degrees apart in the appropriate motoring position. The generator field windings will not be set at 90 degrees to the motor field windings but at an angle that would give the highest generation effect. Unless someone knows what the difference between the best motoring position and best generating position is, we will have to find out by experiment. These generator windings will have to be of sufficient turns so as to give sufficient voltage under load to run the motor. The slots in the case are to separate the poles of the magnetic circuit so that the transformer effect is not cancelled.
Mbrownn analyzes the Lockridge device as if it was a typical inductive motor-generator: armature commutation, back-EMF, inductive kickback, mutual induction, reactive power, motoring vs. generating brush angles, etc... and this does not bring up anything unusual nor revolutionary.
I noticed that nobody pays attention to the capacitor wound with two 35ft copper tapes and waxed butcher paper between them (as the dielectric) that is prominently featured in this device.
Quote from: mbrownn on 2012.02.23, 02:07:10https://youtu.be/vdkekTOv06g?t=188 (https://youtu.be/vdkekTOv06g?list=PLYKZJNzmVZaDrc80u_3j0slgdEBJxRdiy&t=188)
If this capacitor is purposely located within the rotating magnetic flux zone generated by this device in order to induce electric charge in it, then optimally the magnetic flux should move through this capacitor in the following manner:
(https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4525.0;attach=56541)
A capacitor wound with two separate copper tapes (denoted as red and blue spirals around the center post).This is only an example of the optimal magnetic flux movement through the copper tape capacitor. This is
not a suggestion to duplicate this mechanism literally.
There are many other arrangements that can produce this virtual movement of flux, ...with or without moving mechanical components and/or permanent magnets.
Perhaps the other parts of the Lockridge device already do that...