The Lockridge device

[mbrownn]

As a PS I would love to get my hands on that notebook, but even so, John still was unable to get it to work so we know the answer is not there unless it is true that the transistors were the problem.

[Hiwater]

I tend to agree with you that this is very possible to do.
The main reason is what was said in the Lockridge video. Is that the people who had  brought this machine back to the states. Said that the only generator they could find to work was one out of a Gm generator. That particular part was the armature .

From all the different brands i have taken apart most are all wound the same way. Except the GM.
That series of  generators has 3 different armatures. All three are wound different, but in function are the same. One has very high speed as a motor with 2.75 amps, this one the windings are wound left on the commutator from the armature slots. The other is wound right from the armature slots, lower speed and consumes about 1.75 amps while motoring. The other the windings off the armature slot come almost straight to the  to the comm bars. this consumes anywhere from .24-.87 amps while motoring Average of .33-.41 amps.

Still in the process of elimination on these armatures

[Hiwater]

From the pictures I have of the old VW generators they almost look like starter armatures. The golf cart starter-generator has these same features .
This maybe why the need for the motor driving coil at 90 degrees. Which they would turn in that position. 
Does any one know if the VW generator is a starter too or is there a separate starter on those. With the motor drive coil in the 90 degree position suggests that it could have been a starter-generator.




   

[PhysicsProf]

As you know, I'm interested in what you guys are doing and climbing the learning curve.  I came across this vid that seems relevant:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtJt5O4ep14&feature=em-uploademail-new

[mbrownn]

From the pictures I have of the old VW generators they almost look like starter armatures. The golf cart starter-generator has these same features .
This maybe why the need for the motor driving coil at 90 degrees. Which they would turn in that position. 
Does any one know if the VW generator is a starter too or is there a separate starter on those. With the motor drive coil in the 90 degree position suggests that it could have been a starter-generator.

The reason for the four pole case is to separate the motoring from the generation while still having it on the same core but I believe it is also for the geometry change of the power coil.

I am not sure of the specs of the original bosch generator as all I have is a delco equivelent for the specs. If I had a delco generator to use, I would use all generator coils to start with because of their greater number of turns. Unfortunately I am using 2 pole universal motors.

[mbrownn]

   As you know, I'm interested in what you guys are doing and climbing the learning curve.  I came across this vid that seems relevant:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtJt5O4ep14&feature=em-uploademail-new

I have seen similar videos and although at first it does not seem related, the interesting thing is the geometry of the power coil. It is not located where you would normally put it.

Where I am at with the lockridge is a point where only testing will see if it works because normal theory says it should not run. The next possibility is that it does run but in reverse causing the generation and transformer action to be in opposition as in a normal motor. We will see

[mbrownn]

I said earlier in this thread that the lockridge does not have a magnetic shunt, I will correct myself. The fact that the splits in the motor case are not all the way across may mean that there is in fact a magnetic shunt, I am not sure about this but it is possible that these remaining areas of iron act as the shunt. It all depends how the flux goes when the power coil is on. If this is the case then the operation may require the switching on and off of the compensation coil with the power coil permanently on. Just another permutation to try.

[ion]

It would be wise to theorize about the source of the extra energy derived from such a motor/generator.

Since we do not use the mechanical power generated, and if the mechanical rotation is a necessary part of the operation of the device, what special function does the rotation provide?

If it is just BEMF we need to capture and recycle, there are many non rotational devices that can be explored.

What actual function do we expect the rotation to perform that could not be modelled in a non rotating device.

Is there something specific about the rotation e.g. creating a vortex for ambient electrons and capturing them? Or interacting with the earth magnetic field?

Does anyone have a reasonable hypothesis from which to proceed?

[mbrownn]

The extra energy comes from the inductive kickback and magnetism, these alone are not enough to provide all the power we need so we have to recycle as well. Like the gray motor it combines several methods of getting at overunity all in one device. So there is nothing new in where the energy comes from, its how we use it.

Some of the mechanical power is consumed by BEMF just as in any motor but as the vast majority of this BEMF occurs in a coil that is separate to the power coil we can call it EMF or generated current. Of course these coils coils be made bigger to match the motive power and then there is no need for an external  generator at all.

If we do not make use of the motive force of the magnetism we are wasting it, this device combines a transformer with a motor so it is already using non rotational methods. The rotation is the generating function so it is a requirement, all the functions are standard physics and accepted as normal functions it is just that combining them in one device is not done. People do not consider that you can have a transformer that is a motor and generator at the same time and people also do not consider recycling the current, this is why we fail. We have to do all these at the same time.

A four pole delco generator or a golf cart motor would be good candidates to modify to prove the principals then it is a matter of tuning. Do you have one of these? if so I will tell you how to proceed. I am broke so cant do much myself but I am happy to give you the info and direction to make this thing work, or at least try.

[PhysicsProf]

  Please note that you all are free to post on the 'regular' threads also here.  And I invite you to do so!

[mbrownn]

Now I need your input guys.

Attached is a cad drawing of how I see the magnetic circuit working. I have downloaded the FEMM program that squires talked about and I will try it on there but it may take me a while to figure out how to use it.

Hiwater, this should answer the questions you are asking about the geometry, If I have my left and right hand rules the right way round.

Note that there is two magnetic circuits, these could be powered simultaneously or sequentially. The power coils are at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock, the other two coils are the output and could be wired in series or parallel. As there is the slots in the case I would expect that the power coils are powered sequentially.

There is little if any motive force produced by the interaction between the power coil pole and the rotor, the motive force is present in the interaction between the output coil pole and the rotor. This is why there will be little BEMF in the power coils and a lot in the output coils. The transformer action should also produce an EMF in the output coil in the same direction. The pulse begins in the position shown and continues until the rotor coil is half way across the pole, at this point the inductive kickback takes over and powers the motor across the second half of the face of the pole, then the motor coasts until the rotor coil reaches the same position again in half a revolution. we will have a second pulse at this time provided by the capacitor in the simplified gray circuit I showed you before. This way the input is 1 pulse per rev and the motor pulses twice per rev.

Note the stator is four pole and the rotor is 2 pole. It may be possible to make it run with an unmodified rotor but I doubt it will run well as the geometry is more complex than I show. I believe the geometry is the rotor I built and showed you before with the rotor equally divided by each set of coils. Very simple but prone to arcing. If the commutator has very narrow segments we may need a second set of brushes on the commutator to recover the inductive kickback, does that sound familiar?

I am trying to acquire a golf cart motor to test my theories and will post the results when I have some.

I don't want this put out on the forums yet as I want to have some results to quote. After we have tested this I intend to put the info to a number of other researchers that have helped me for them to test. At that point, if it works then maybe we release it on the forums and youtube etc

What do you think steve?

Ion, as a skeptic hehe,  I would appreciate if you would point out any any holes in my theory. I wont be offended at all if you find some, as it could be that I cant see the wood for the trees at the moment and that would not be the firs time that has happened.

Any questions?

OK lets build it.

[ion]

mbrownn said:

Ion, as a skeptic hehe,  I would appreciate if you would point out any any holes in my theory. I wont be offended at all if you find some, as it could be that I cant see the wood for the trees at the moment and that would not be the firs time that has happened.

I don't like to be labelled a skeptic but maybe that's what I am. I do believe many thing may be possible that remain undiscovered. This may be one of them. Only time and exhaustive experimentation will tell.

If I were to experiment in this area, I would take a large diameter soft steel pipe as my armature and have numerous slots milled into it  parallel to the circumference. Then I would build coil and magnet assemblies that mount with wing nuts so that I could try many different configurations / positions and tune the unit.

I would make the diameter large so that you can use long solenoids which are far more efficient than the flat coils used in most machines. In those machines the desire to make a small diameter sacrifices efficiency.

You can get some ideas from pictures of turn of the century motors.

The rotor also should be made for some degree of tuning, setting angles.

If the unit has a commutator, I would make it variable over a wide range.

In this manner you will be able to run many experiments in a short time, logging results to see if you are moving closer to the goal of a self runner.

FEMM programs won't allow for pulling in energy from an outside source or other anomaly, but may be useful to map out your designs and see if they agree with the results.

Perhaps there is a business opportunity to market such a kit to the thousands of motor experimenters everywhere.

You can send me a very small royalty. LOL

[mbrownn]

mbrownn said:

I don't like to be labelled a skeptic but maybe that's what I am.

Sorry for making the comment, it was meant as a joke. What I would like is someone not invested in the lockrige device to go over my work and look for errors.

The Idea is to use off the shelf parts as much as possible and modify when required. The truth is, if we can do it, this is much more likely to be accepted than a device that people don't see as practical. Your method would be much better for R&D but that requires more funds and facilities.

Looking at my magnetic circuit, do you think we could get the motor to turn?

Do you think the BEMF would be mitigated in the power coils?

Do you think we will get a transformer action and a generation action in the output coils?

Will they be in the same direction or will they oppose each other?

If you think the answer is yes to the first three and the output is in the same direction, do you think the transformer output will be added to the generator output or be concurrent ie increase voltage or increase current flow?

This last question relates to a possible gain so is important

The two other potential gains in this device are the inductive kickback and recycling of the input and inductive kickback. Inductive kickback is accepted as contributing to motive power in a motor so is accepted as a gain in PWM. No one, to my knowledge, in off the shelf motor design, attempts to recycle the current other than in breaking circuits.

[Hiwater]

     

  Hello MrBrownn. In reference to the golf cart starter-generator. The 4 brushes are in the brush end frame. Which is removable. They are hard to work with.

  The brushes are thick and i believe cover two comm bars. Most sta-gens use thicker brushes to cover two bars for starting torque. The armature would be hard to rewind, because they are built like a regular starter motor.

You might have to find a picture of one of them on the net. The sta-gen of the cub cadet would be a better candidate. but then you need the gen coils out of the golf cart one to put in the cadet one. bucause the of the space needed inside the case . There isnt much room. Then you need a couple motor coils out of a 6 volt starter, one that has 4 coils in because they are narrower. The ones with 2 coils are wider and wont fit. They cover the area where the slots need to be in the case.

  This is just to let you knowwhat i have found out during all of these trial and errors. Also the feild poles on the golf cart motor are quite thick. to make them fit in to a delco style case they need to be ground down close to one eight inch for the air gap.

  Im not trying to discourage you. just letting you what needs to be taken into consideration. Hope this helps. Go for it.

[Hiwater]

Thanks for your last posts. going to study them a bit.  The power coils I already have in its just a matter of putting in a couple of slots in so i can move them one way or the other.So I can check the effect on motorizing. Then i can Install the gen coils. Its hard to visualize the magnetic field going through the armature as to where exactly the motor coils should be. Your photo will help a lot.

The slots in the case as you refer to the Magnetic shunt almost has to be a the equator (center) of the armature. Separating both sides of the motor-gen coils. Unless the charge coils are over the center if that's where most of the charge is.
Don't know. Only experiments will tell.

[mbrownn]

Hello MrBrownn.

In reference to the golf cart starter-generator. The 4 brushes are in the brush end frame. Which is removable. They are hard to work with.

The brushes are thick and i believe cover two comm bars. Most sta-gens use thicker brushes to cover two bars for starting torque. The armature would be hard to rewind, because they are built like a regular starter motor.

You might have to find a picture of one of them on the net. The sta-gen of the cub cadet would be a better candidate. but then you need the gen coils out of the golf cart one to put in the cadet one. because the of the space needed inside the case . There isn't much room. Then you need a couple motor coils out of a 6 volt starter, one that has 4 coils in because they are narrower. The ones with 2 coils are wider and wont fit. They cover the area where the slots need to be in the case.

This is just to let you know what i have found out during all of these trial and errors. Also the field poles on the golf cart motor are quite thick. to make them fit in to a Delco style case they need to be ground down close to one eight inch for the air gap.

I'm not trying to discourage you. just letting you what needs to be taken into consideration. Hope this helps. Go for it

Your points are well taken, at the moment I don't know what motor I will be getting, it may be a starter/generator or it may be an electric motor from an electric golf cart and it may well be a burned out one as you know I have to rely on peoples generosity to get things.

The power coils I already have in its just a matter of putting in a couple of slots in so i can move them one way or the other.So I can check the effect on motorizing. Then i can Install the gen coils. Its hard to visualize the magnetic field going through the armature as to where exactly the motor coils should be. Your photo will help a lot.

The slots in the case as you refer to the Magnetic shunt almost has to be a the equator (center) of the armature. Separating both sides of the motor-gen coils . Unless the charge coils are over the center if that's where most of the charge is .
Don't know. only experiments will tell.

The slots in the case of the Lockridge are to separate the two magnetic circuits but the small amount of metal remaining may be for a magnetic shunt if the two circuits are pulsed sequentially. If this is the case then my electrical circuit will have to be modified. Until one of us can get some tests done this is very speculative but I am trying to get this to work on the FEMM program that Squires refers to ( http://www.femm.info/wiki/Download ) This will make it less speculative if I can work out how to use it. If you want to try it I can send you the DXF file I have made of the motor or you can make your own drawing with A9CAD ( http://a9cad.en.softonic.com/ ) Yes we may have to adjust the coil locations but at the moment I am not sure.

On the armature, a standard two pole may work but I think it will leak flux as the coils do not separate it perfectly in half. I am almost certain that an armature rewind will be needed unless one of the original Delco armatures can be found.

I sent Peter L an email but he has not responded so I am not going to keep him in the loop on my latest info as he seems too business orientated, patents etc. Maybe I will phone him when we have one running as he gave me his number. To be truthful I think he must have worked this out himself and is keeping quiet on this.

I have not yet shared this with Erfinder who is someone I speak to regularly but I think I should as he has just bought a big 4 pole universal motor to test some of my theories. What do you think? This guy is very clued up although his main area of research is on a different type of pulse motor.

So, as of now, the only people I have told are on this thread.

[Hiwater]

Sure you can share this info. We need some more investigative efforts on this transformer action. The experiments are the only possible way to figure this out.

I did some research on the magnetic shunt, so know i understand its most likely what you speculated to separate the 2 circuits. I am going to try to get some more time today to work on moving those motor coils, to check the effects on motorizing.

In your motor attachment, are the brushes the round circles. The pole shoes in the motors I'm working with cover 3 armature slots, so the gen section would cover about the same. Unless I could use the motor coils out of the golf cart motor, which are narrower, then this would leave more room for wider gen field poles. Will have to check to see what kind of motor action i get with the gold cart coils first.

[mbrownn]

I have just run the FEMM program on the lockridge. This is with both coils pulsed at the same time.

Note that the flux in the top and bottom coils is close together and will move with the armature, perfect for generation. Note also that the flux in the power coils is wide spaced and will move little therefore BEMF will be lower. Having said that, to minimize the BEMF in the power coil we should mount it on the case where the pink area is. From comparing this with a Universal motor on the same motor the torque will be about half that of a universal motor. If we only pulse one half of the motor there is a bigger shunt effect but the motoring will have lower torque.

I think that the lockridge used the standard motor position so it was not as efficient as it could be.

If your working with motors I think this FEMM software is great, the only problem is the instructions are minimal.

Normally your power coils are in the same position as your brushes but we put them at 90 degrees to the brushes so you will have to swap the wires over. the motor should run under DC so we can test it like that first before we go to pulsing. This will only test the motor torque and generating functions with no transformer action. you could use half wave rectification and an AC supply to get an idea of the transformer action but you will need a scope.

I don't know if you have 2 pole or 4 pole armatures or if it is lap or wave wound. If it is lap wound you will get some flux leakage but the motor might run as the four poles are created with the four brushes. By using two brushes you would get 2 poles. If it is wave wound, we need to know if it is four pole or 2 pole. The brushes would be better if thinner but I would not modify that yet as we are at the testing stage and need to know what we get with standard brushes. I believe the lockridge had a 2 pole wave wound armature.

[Hiwater]

Hey I like your program. I see the armature has 12 armature slots. can one be done with 14 slots. You can see why there is a need for the slots in the case. Very well done.

The mounting of the of the motor coils must be close to that of magnetic north and not geographical north as in a standard motor. looks good.

I did work with the coils some yesterday. By moving them 90 degrees against rotation it wont rotate. But by slowly bringing them back with rotation it will start to rotate. Finding the best spot for it to start spinning. When i put the generator coil in, It then wouldn't rotate. It would if i would give it a little help. Then it would start rotating.

The odd thing was , when I put in the gen coil in the drag on the armature was quite noticeable..Both ends of the coil weren't connected to anything.
So I connected one end of the gen coil to the output of the motor coil going to the positive brush through a 12 volt bulb. One way it would slow the motor down even more. Reversing the connections then the motor would pick up and spin quite fast with the bulb glowing.

The residual magnetism in the gen coil field pole has quite an effect on the armature. May try to slot the case right behind the gen coil to check the effect.

Your program should make this show up how the flux travels through the armature from this gen coil.
This is really getting Interesting  Now . So we can see what is going on.   

[Hiwater]

The armature is a standard Delco version no modifications. There is one positive brush and one negative brush. I believe it is lap wound. All one continuous wire.

Continuity to all commutator bars from one to the other. So I dont know if it would be classified as a 2 pole or what. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean on the armatures ------ Needs specific clarification. 
If its a 2 brush then it a 2 pole? ------ Right or wrong.

I can add the other 2 brushes like the Lockridge had, most any time we need. but the armature first is what i need to understand. I tend to forget things in between times working on them.
I do agree the wave wound armature is really prone to sparking. some of the armature modifications i have played with, there is a ball of fire about half the size of a dime coming off the brushes. It eats the commutator up in short order.





     

[mbrownn]

Hey I like your program.
I see the armature has 12 armature slots. can one be done with 14 slots. You can see why there is a need for the slots in the case. Very well done.

Yes one could be done with 14 slots but it took me a day and a half to do the one with12 slots hehe, Im not fast yet with the CAD program and yes the effect of magnetic separation can be seen.

The mounting of the of the motor coils must be close to that of magnetic north and not geographical north as in a standard motor. looks good.

Not sure what you mean.

I did work with the coils some yesterday. By moving them 90 degrees against rotation it wont rotate. But by slowly bringing them back with rotation it will start to rotate. Finding the best spot for it to start spinning. When i put the generator coil in, It then wouldn't rotate. It would if i would give it a little help. Then it would start rotating.

The odd thing was , when I put in the gen coil in the drag on the armature was quite noticeable..Both ends of the coil weren't connected to anything.
So I connected one end of the gen coil to the output of the motor coil going to the positive brush through a 12 volt bulb. One way it would slow the motor down even more. Reversing the connections then the motor would pick up and spin quite fast with the bulb glowing.

The motor is in magnetic lock with a small torque being created by the flux passing through the generator coils so the motor action will not be powerful and we know the motor would not self start. The load on the generator may cancel the motoring action so the resistance of the load will be critical. You need to have the power and generator coils in position to get the magnetic circuit. By adding coils to the motoring circuit we will effect the motoring action but we are looking to get a balance between motoring and generation.

The residual magnetism in the gen coil field pole has quite an effect on the armature. May try to slot the case right behind the gen coil to check the effect.

I used to think residual magnetism played a part in the device but now I am not sure. The length of the slot may also be very important, so if you slot it, don't make the slot too big to start with.

your program should make this show up how the flux travels through the armature from this gen coil.
This is really getting Interesting  Now . So we can see what is going on.   

Yes it is a good program isn't it

The armature is a standard Delco version no modifications. There is one positive brush and one negative brush. I believe it is lap wound. All one continuous wire.
Continuity to all commutator bars from one to the other. So I don't know if it would be classified as a 2 pole or what. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean on the armatures ------ Need specific clarification.
If its a 2 brush then it a 2 pole? ------ Right or wrong.

Yes you are exactly right with a lap wound rotor.

I can add the other 2 brushes like the Lockridge had, most any time we need. but the armature first is what i need to understand. I tend to forget things in between times working on them.

I do agree the wave wound armature is really prone to sparking. some of the armature modifications i have played with, there's a ball of fire about half the size of a dime coming off the brushes. It eats the commutator up in short order.

The two extra brushes in the Lockridge are to collect the inductive kickback from the armature preventing the arcing. If we use an external commutator this collection will be done there using a lap wound armature. If we use a wave wound armature I think it would be necessary to have the extra brushes but we can cross that bridge when we get to it. For now let us stick to the standard motor generator.

With the two power coils and the armature energized in the same direction, experiment with brush placement to see if we can get a small motoring action under DC current. When you do, measure the current and voltage in the generator coils when they are connected to a bulb. Once you have a motoring action adjust the brushes to where you have maximum voltage from the generator coils. This should be close to the optimum position for the brushes.

Then power the motor under half wave rectified AC and measure the voltage and current from the generator coils. It should be more than the DC input gave for the same motor speed. Of course it is likely that the motor speed will be slower and the current input lower with the half wave rectification so you may have to increase the voltage input to make the comparison.

These are important measurements as it could confirm if the generated voltage and current are added to he transformer voltage and current. If we do get a voltage and/or current greater than the input across the field power coils then we have proven the additive effect.

The easiest way to do this is have the power coils and the armature in parallel, then measure the input current and voltage to one of the power field coils. Then measure the voltage and current in the generator coil.

By doing this we are comparing one field coil with one generator coil and from the results we may be able to calculate the ratio of the input field coils to the output field coils and so the number of turns required on the output.

I know this will be exciting once we get the motor to turn but it is important not to get ahead of ourselves in the testing. Lets take it one step at a time.

First is the motor action

Second the generator action

Third is the transformer action

Next is the commutator and brushes

fifth is the pulse circuit

Sixth is the recovery

seventh is the capacitor size

eighth is the trifilar coil

I don't think we will have overunity until all the stages are completed and tuned, we are doing stage one now, once we have a motor action we move onto stage two and at this point we have to consider the function of the slotted case so be patient as any errors could result in failure.

[PhysicsProf]

Can you fellows recommend  off-the-shelf high-efficiency motor and generator, for use in some tests I'd like to do?   Power at around 100W or so would be fine, I don't need to get into the KW range for this pair for these tests, and I'd like to keep the costs down.  Any help would be appreciated.

[Hiwater]

From your diagram,  The one with the black (background). I see that the flux is clockwise in the top half and CCW in the bottom half. this may be normal.

But the reason i bring this up is because, I figured out why my generator was slowing down when i put the gen coil in. It done this on either side. It was because I have 1 CCW coil in the top position and cw motor coil in the bottom position.

When I applied power to the coils it wouldn't turn. By moving it by hand you could feel the cogging in between the gen coil and the other motor coil.
The same way a permanent magnet fields would act in those heater motors for cars. Next step today is try and slot one of those small motors to see what is does, just out of curiosity.
     
I had taken that generator coil out of the other test gen case. Which didn't cog up and spun free. So I took it apart to see why.
That case had 2 motor coils in that were wound clockwise, which i used 2 leads as a center tap for the input through the coils and then to the positive brush on the armature. Which spins nicely with both gen coils in with the both motor coils.

Which way its really supposed to be , i don't know for sure yet. Just some FYI.



 

[Hiwater]

Magnetic north is X amount of degrees from geographical north I think against rotation. You might have to look it up. I believe its where the motor coils would be the most active. Your colored image kind of shows this where the most red area is.

Well I have read the rest of your post, so now the real work comes. I have copied it off so will use it for reference. I will keep you informed. will try to get this thing to turn today

[mbrownn]

That is what I thought you meant, obviously this is coincidental because the computer does not know which way it is facing and by mirroring the drawing the flux is orientated the other way. There is however, a school of thought that "earth currents" are a source of the extra energy found in the gains found in these devices and we also have to consider that the device is a rotating object mounted on the periphery of a huge rotating magnet called the earth. I don't know if this is a source of the energy but it may be worth looking into when we do the tests. we could change the orientation of the device and see if we get more energy in one orientation than in another. Personally I don't think it will make a difference but we will see.