@Tinman, hope you don't mind if I start a thread about your split toroid, fascinating idea and tantalizing results so far:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_C1VC_-f3Z0
So at about 11.93 MHz, you see the signals from the two secondary coils are 180 degrees out of phase with each other, and somewhat more output power from the coil wound on the "upper half" of the toroid. This is surprising (to me), and I think an innovative device worth further experimenting and consideration.
Congratulations!
You noted that the input current measurement, about zero or even negative at this frequency, was not meaningful. Then you said you would add a current-sensing resistor to the input side (etc), in order to measure Pinput. Have you done this yet??
I have a ferrite ring, 10 cm OD and 6.5 cm ID. I was thinking that with two of these, the upper one could be wound just AS YOU DID with your upper-half toroid. Then the other secondary and primary wound over BOTH of these rings.
Also, does one need iron or ferrite? could rings with higher permeability be used?
I like your idea and hope for more experimental data from you on this!
Good thinking outside the box with the split toroid.
In some ways this is similar to the Travhf core design but which has only a two turn cancelling secondary.
Hi PhysicsProf
I had actually forgotten about this device. This was built just a week before we had to shift house,and along with shifting house,i started a new job. So amongst all the mayhem,i just forgot all about it.
The reason i said that the negative current reading meant nothing,is that i don't think that meter would have been giving an accurate reading at that frequency.The specs on the meter are +/- 5% at 10KHz-so i don't put my trust in the meters at those frequencies. But i guess it could have just as easily read a positive current?.
The core was terrable aswell-made from plastic steel putty. I sure would like to be able to cast a metglass core with the same config,and try that.Two ferrite toroid's might work just fine,but iron wouldn't be so good at high frequencies.
The one thing it seem to tell me,was that there are frequency ranges where the magnetic field seems to become more concentrated toward the center of the core.
Now there is one thing i would like to know,that i haven't been able to work out.In a toroid,it is said that the magnetic field is mostly confined in the core. So which magnetic field? north or south?. If we have both,then how is a current produced?.
I'm glad you did start this post Steve,as now I'm going to find that thing,and do some more testing on it.
I never got around to putting a CSR on the input,and having a look on the scope,but when i find it,that will be the first order of business.
Quote
I'm glad you did start this post Steve,as now I'm going to find that thing,and do some more testing on it.
I never got around to putting a CSR on the input,and having a look on the scope,but when i find it,that will be the first order of business.
Great! I think its a fun and informative device you have there.
We will learn something... even if COP>1 is elusive...
QuoteNow there is one thing i would like to know,that i haven't been able to work out.In a toroid,it is said that the magnetic field is mostly confined in the core. So which magnetic field? north or south?. If we have both,then how is a current produced?
Inside the toroid, the field lines are concentrated, forming a full circle; there is not beginning (say, north) or end (south). It is the changing B-field strength that causes currents in the secondary
Outside the toroid, the field is near zero (they say; when the currents are at high-freq, I begin to wonder if some B-lines wander...)
Yeah, kinda weird...
Quote from: tinman on 2013.11.17, 19:46:52
Now there is one thing i would like to know,that i haven't been able to work out.In a toroid,it is said that the magnetic field is mostly confined in the core. So which magnetic field? north or south?. If we have both,then how is a current produced?.
Once the fields of the primary expand from the windings, they propagate as shown below until the fields stop expanding, then most all the field is in the core, before being saturated that is. ;)
So if you wanted to detect the field lines crossing over to the other side of the toroid, as shown below, then simply put 1 wire directly through the center of the toroid opening, staying away from the core and winding as much as possible. And what ever the direction of current through that wire, will coincide with how the field cuts the wire, right hand rule, and it will coincide with my N and S designations for the coil itself and the polarity of the fields that cross over the toroids open area.
If you put a hall sensor in the toroid opening, facing upward, again a field measurement can be made and will coincide with my N and S designations shown below.
Granted, the density of the field in the opening while the field is expanding or contracting, will not be of the density of what is accumulated in the core. The field expansion and crossover happens fast. Like a snap. But never the less, every bit of the field developed by the primary that forms into complete loops in the core, passes through that doughnut hole.
So the test I described earlier in the other thread with the larger dia core and a smaller dia core inside the larger(shown below also) could validate some things. If the secondary that is only wound on the outer core is induced less to none compared to the sec wound on the inner core only, this would change the books supposedly. ^-^ ;D
Mags
Hi Mags-good to have you here on this thread.
So a couple of basic questions first.
1- When operating in the MHz frequency ranges with AC,will resistors still work the same way for a load ,as they do in the low frequency ranges across an AC output-or do they have a speed limit? I am useing 1/2 watt carbon film resistors
2-My SG has its own math function(if you want to call it that)where as it can tell me the Vpp.Vrms,Vmax,Vmin-all that fruit.
My question is,when we send an 8 Vpp AC signal to an inductor with a CSR in series to get our current,once we have that current value,is it multiplied by the 8 VPP or the RMS value from the SG to get our P/in?.
Quote from: tinman on 2013.11.18, 11:41:50
Hi Mags-good to have you here on this thread.
So a couple of basic questions first.
1- When operating in the MHz frequency ranges with AC,will resistors still work the same way for a load ,as they do in the low frequency ranges across an AC output-or do they have a speed limit? I am useing 1/2 watt carbon film resistors
2-My SG has its own math function(if you want to call it that)where as it can tell me the Vpp.Vrms,Vmax,Vmin-all that fruit.
My question is,when we send an 8 Vpp AC signal to an inductor with a CSR in series to get our current,once we have that current value,is it multiplied by the 8 VPP or the RMS value from the SG to get our P/in?.
Hey brad
1 If it is a non inductive resistor, then the only inductance to worry of is in the leads of the resistor and the rest of the circuit. What I just read last night was that a non inductive resistor is just a carbon block, not a spiral carbon film. So the resistor should specify non-inductive to be sure. ;)
2 p-p if you want peak power, RMS if you want Rms measurment. When you say SG, do you mean scope?
Running late for work
Mags
@ Mags
SG is my signal generator.
Thanks for the info on the resistors. I dont see any ringing across the resistors,only a nice clean sine wave
Quote from: tinman link=topic=2268.ms ??? :-\675#msg34675 date=1384784998
@ Mags
SG is my signal generator.
Oh, I get it now. As you said, sg with math function. Never seen one. lol, thats why I thought you were talking about the scope.
What interests me is why it is claimed that all the coils field is 'only' in the core ??? :-\ ;)
What would it be that they dont want us to know? :( ;D :D
And what would be the advantage of knowing this?
Think. If it were a rod core where the fields N and S escape the ends of the core and expand outward, then when the field collapses, where does it collapse to? Or even just a pulsed straight wire. ;)
If the field from the coil gets developed in the core only, then when it collapses, how does the collapse induce the coil if all the field is trapped in the core? Where is the right hand rule?? Thats like saying we can have some windings(secondary, pickup) only close to the outer circumference of the toroid, like say an air core toroid coil that is a larger diameter than the iron based core, and it should get induced. But we all know that there is not much if any field out there. But pass just 1 wire through the middle and wala, we have induction. ;) ;D The main reason why the field is in the opening of the core is to get to the other side to be in complete loop in the core. The curvature of the toroid, or even the 90 deg turns of the Ecores guide the fields in the path toward the other side of the core, because it is attracted there and the N and S poles fields can be relaxed in the core where they like to be. ;D The iron enables like fields to be close to each other without all the repelling. But once out of the core, like fields repel each other and flower outward to loop back to the opposite pole which it is naturally attracted to. Solid metal cores will hold that field like Leedskalnin, but cores that are particle based have tiny air gaps allowing the filed to collapse when the source field is gone. So a solid iron toroid or say closed core has to receive a reverse field in order to unlock that originally created field in the core.
So for AC, the core can be solid, and dc pulse should be non solid, or gapped so the field collapses before a new dc pulse, otherwise 1 pulse will charge the core and the next pulse will encounter saturation and little output after that. ;) ;D
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on 2013.11.19, 00:17:15
Oh, I get it now. As you said, sg with math function. Never seen one. lol, thats why I thought you were talking about the scope.
What interests me is why it is claimed that all the coils field is 'only' in the core ??? :-\ ;)
What would it be that they dont want us to know? :( ;D :D
And what would be the advantage of knowing this?
Think. If it were a rod core where the fields N and S escape the ends of the core and expand outward, then when the field collapses, where does it collapse to? Or even just a pulsed straight wire. ;)
If the field from the coil gets developed in the core only, then when it collapses, how does the collapse induce the coil if all the field is trapped in the core? Where is the right hand rule?? Thats like saying we can have some windings(secondary, pickup) only close to the outer circumference of the toroid, like say an air core toroid coil that is a larger diameter than the iron based core, and it should get induced. But we all know that there is not much if any field out there. But pass just 1 wire through the middle and wala, we have induction. ;) ;D The main reason why the field is in the opening of the core is to get to the other side to be in complete loop in the core. The curvature of the toroid, or even the 90 deg turns of the Ecores guide the fields in the path toward the other side of the core, because it is attracted there and the N and S poles fields can be relaxed in the core where they like to be. ;D The iron enables like fields to be close to each other without all the repelling. But once out of the core, like fields repel each other and flower outward to loop back to the opposite pole which it is naturally attracted to. Solid metal cores will hold that field like Leedskalnin, but cores that are particle based have tiny air gaps allowing the filed to collapse when the source field is gone. So a solid iron toroid or say closed core has to receive a reverse field in order to unlock that originally created field in the core.
So for AC, the core can be solid, and dc pulse should be non solid, or gapped so the field collapses before a new dc pulse, otherwise 1 pulse will charge the core and the next pulse will encounter saturation and little output after that. ;) ;D
Mags
Yes i agree,there are many questions to be answered about the torid transformer. My dad use to say that the torid is very powerful,when placed in the right situation., You may like my next video on the split core setup. Seems that i can load the winding that passes through the center of the toroid,and insted of the voltage across the resistor going down,it go's up,and no reflection seen on the CSR on the input?.
Cant wait! :D ;)
Mags
I have done some more tweeking on the frequency,and seem to have found a range where it shows the best results.
The video explains it pretty much,so i will just post that here.The winding that passes through the middle of the core,reacts far different than that of the winding around the outer of the core.The output from the winding through the center of the core puts out a lot more power when the secondary is heavily loaded.There also seems to be no reflection shown on the P/in.
The more i load the two outputs,the more they compensate for the load-while P/in remains the same.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjHIBmj2Q3M
@ Mags
Im lookin for a couple of ferrite rings of the right size to make the one you pictured second above.Then cast them in the steel putty,and wind the primary over the two cores. So im wondering what happens if the two secondaries are 180* out of phase with each other? What effect would that have on the input?.
Quote from: tinman on 2013.11.19, 16:05:46
@ Mags
Im lookin for a couple of ferrite rings of the right size to make the one you pictured second above.Then cast them in the steel putty,and wind the primary over the two cores. So im wondering what happens if the two secondaries are 180* out of phase with each other? What effect would that have on the input?.
Hey Brad
Look at the vid a bit. Im at lunch, so Ill study it after work. ;)
I thought of the same thing using a large toroid core and a small one that fits inside the big one. But my concern is that the metal putty, if not as magnetic as the cores themselves, may present leakage that will throw off testing data.
Unless the putty is densely infused with powdered iron till its I would say 90% powder 10% bonding epoxy, to come close to the cores magnetic abilities. Or just make the core pieces, then all is equal. ;) I also thought making some iron wire cores with the thickened putty. Ive used Plasticoat primer to insulate the iron wire in other projects.
Note, when mixing in iron powder, have the epoxy already mixed with hardener then add powder. Otherwise the epoxy wont completely get mixed with the hardener part and some areas may never cure. Mixing is much harder with the powder, so mixing the epoxy first eliminates extra work. Also it takes longer for the epoxy to cure with all the iron taking space and not allowing the chem reaction to happen in the normal amount of time due to lack of ability to heat up, compared to epoxy alone.
Be back later
Mags
I have some iron powder/particles I recover from our sand blaster and bead blaster at work. Picked up some epoxy. I came up with a simple solution for the toroid core inside of the larger core.
Im going to make a simple plastic mold to make 1 toroid then drill out the core for the 2 secondaries. Might try to use a stiff foam material to make the slots for the secondaries, then just pick out the foam instead of drilling. Then after winding the secondaries, Ill press in a bit of putty into the gaps.
Mags
OK
This will not be the proper place for this ,However it will have to do for now....
Spoke with Brad again this AM [PM his time] and he has had a motor running for 4 hours on nothing but a completely sealed chamber with water as the only fuel ,recycled over and over again ?
vids are coming and the working principle.....
[stupid simple]
Steve you will be needing that MOT after all O0 [plus the magnetron]
More to come.
thx
Chet
Edit to remove Evolvingape comment
Ok
Brad took this a bit further than the guy in the first Vid below,......and then combined the motor in the second vid to run off this
water phase/combustion event.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYc7I-XvmKA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4VJG8-9izQ
To make a long story short he is exploding water [and water only] in a sealed chamber using a magnetron from a microwave along with the Mot and a timed spark.
the same water is used over and over,no condensing chamber no heating ,just exploding water after he gets it to its stoichiometric state with the magnetron..................
he has it running a generator .
He will assist in a replication ,he is already building a bigger one.
I suppose a vid will be forth coming although he is reticent about making vids ATM.[trying to give that addiction up >:-) and stay focused on his work]
thx
Chet
What a great idea using a flywheel and a one way bearing O0 and the water to HHO then fire and expand and then contract as it turns back to water again, so bringing back down the piston.
Very very nice and so simple O0
regards
Mike
OK
Spoke with Brad this AM,He was sharing some of the mechanism involved in his new motor.
the magnetron is focused in some fashion onto a piece of copper which has the water in close proximity .
there are opposiing magnetic fields also in close proximity and which also pull there respective charged elements towards them during this carefully orchestrated moment of Stoiciometric Mahem with an injection of ignition..............
he spoke of his last 4 hour nonstop run and watching the very cool flashes thru the clear super strong High density plastic housing which this small motor uses for a ""chamber"".
No I did not offer any words of caution [Micro What..... doing Micro Which.... :o]
Brad is a big Boy With very Large Cahoonas.................
He said once again when he has more of it sorted he will assist in replications.
I told him I would call again in a few days
On another note
Rob [evolvingape]sent a vid of what he found to be the simplist workable Kelvin Dropper Video replication for running the unit he is sending me to play with
here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQmAIo6JWMU
He especially liked the paper bits hanging on the side to show the charge building [visual aid]
Later
Chet
http://waterarcresearch.blogspot.ch/
As you know Brad will be releasing his Papp type Water engine on June 15 [if you were unaware now you know O0] ,He had no issues sharing the "how its done" and I feel the need to learn a bit more.as well as experiment.
Until Brad releases this keep the News to yourself ,it is "his" surprise after all...
AS I already mentioned We have one new member who can read here Grumage
and just for Clarity Duncan and Johan do not have access to this Freedom Energy board.
thx
Chet
Tucker Leavitt has done a very nice and simple presentation
And has charted significant extra energy in his testing. http://waterarcresearch.blogspot.ch/
Snip"
The results in Table 1 clearly indicate that water arc explosions liberate stored potential energy. Looking at the last 3 columns of Table 1, it can be seen that the water explosion's kinetic energy was even greater than the pulse discharge's electrical energy in three of the eight shots displayed. These results are consistent with the findings reported in Graneau et al. (2000) and require that some sort of internal water energy is released during a water arc explosion
--
Snip"
So, if water explosions do in fact release energy, where does this energy come from? I can't yet give you a definitive answer, but I have a hunch that the energy of a water explosion comes from the reorganization of the water's hydrogen bonding network during the explosion process. Inelastic neutron scattering experiments have revealed the existence of two different kinds of hydrogen bonds in water, each bond with a different strength (Li and Ross, 1993). The "strong" and "weak" bonds have vibrational force constants of 32 meV and 24 meV, respectively, and exist in water in a strong-to-weak ratio of about 2:1 (Graneau, 1998). During an explosion event, forces associated with the high-current arc discharge tear the water into fog droplets. This consumes a certain amount of mechanical energy, which is stored as additional surface tension energy in the fog. However, the molecules in the fog droplets now have significantly fewer neighbors than they did in the bulk water (see my cheesy little diagram below) and can more easily reorient themselves into lower energy states. Thus, weak hydrogen bonds can reform into strong hydrogen bonds, and van der Waals attractions can collapse into weak hydrogen bonds. This bond reformation would, of course, release energy, and could conceivably supply the kinetic energy of a water explosion.
--------------------
This seems a very simple place to experiment and I believe as Johan 1955 stated ,this is the method of the Papp engine.
Johan had done similar testing To what Brad is building a chamber which Contains all rhe energy and converts to rotational motion.
I suppose the Lthium additive will be good to play with also in this experiment
Thx
Chet
Good News from Australia
I had not spoken with Brad much since he started his new job[14-16 hr days 6 days a week driving the big truck]
However We had a wonderful Chat today ...
He is onto his 3rd design with his Water/Papp engine
Number 1] has 416 hrs run time with no outside power other than the 7AH battery which is maintaining charge thru a loop back design.
Number2] Is a 1.1 liter gas motor modified to a one inch crank stroke [piston travel] which runs at
3-4000 RPM and makes 625 Watts ....however lubrication is an issue [cylinder piston interface]
so he is going to Turbine.....?
Number 3] is a 6 inch truck turbocharger looped back onto itself
I will add more info later {have a few other "jobs" which just came up]
Hi Chet
that No. 3 rings a bell, here is my design built by Aaron @ EF, the original ran on syng and ran an alternator, circa 1989
looking forward to seeing his
regards
Mike 8)
Mike
I get the feeling Brad is looping the turbo Too.... reusing the same water supply over and over.
I will be asking him this weekend about assistance in replicating his "Number one prototype" in a thread here.
I know we can get some replications going on for that ,it is a simple clear plexi tube with a magnetron a few coils and 20ml of water,which is then hooked up to a generator and back to the battery.
I cannot imagine a simplar settup for testing ?? and perhaps mixing in a few more ideas??
thx
Chet
Dear Chet.
It was great to talk to you earlier on.
I have attached a sketch of what I think Tinman's Mk 1 engine looks like. Close ????????? :)
Cheers Graham.
Grum
That looks more evolved than MK1. [actually closer to His Mk2]
Design number one is a clear poly tube approx 3 inch diameter x 1 foot long sealed at one end and a rubber diaphram attached to the other end [to allow considerable movement].
Inside the tube he has 20 ML of water sitting in ...I suppose a teaspoon sized cavity[at the bottom] which has the two electrodes in it.
he also has two **"polarity" coils outside the tube on each side of the "event cavity".a microwave oven Tranny and magnetron are part of a series circuit with the coils and the electrodes all fires in one 20MS pulse.
Thats the main part of the build.....................hopefully more detail will follow for component placement
and specs.
from there he goes to a rachet /crank which runs off the diaphram.
Personally I would just like to play with the main body with some method to measure torque being generated Versus input power .
It sounds like a fun little test bed to start from.
**Coils ar opposite polarity and it is alleged that these create an atraction to help pull the IONs apart during the "Fire pulse"....?
Brad did say it works without them however much better with them [the coils]
?
We shall see?
thx
Chet
.
Chet:
Quote
**Coils ar opposite polarity and it is alleged that these create an atraction to help pull the IONs apart during the "Fire pulse"....?
Brad did say it works without them however much better with them [the coils]
Observations like this one are very important IMO - to help scale up the effect and ultimately to understand it.
Tinman often comes up with good observations and progress!
I'd be interested in attempting a replication if he is willing ti provde a bit more detail, and would like to help where I can, perhaps add some observations.
Good stuff!
Steve
I'll be calling him on Sunday {later tonight my time]
Is anybody else having a problem getting OU.com ?
The main forum has been out here for about 12 hrs?
thx
Chet
Hi All
This is my proposed idea, a separate pdf is being written at the moment to explain the electronics etc, also the N52 magnet at 90 degrees with ref: to scientific papers on increased gas and efficiency. You will note that the water splitting is running off a 25mhz wave generator, this will be explained as well, just give me time to write it all :)
regards
Mike 8)
Mike
It will be very interesting to play with this simple test bed.there are sooo many ideas that we could throw at that little test chamber and see real time immediate results !
This is so very interesting even the opportunity to play with small vacuum environments could be brought into play [Perhaps the reason for your Bleed/vacuum screw]?
@ I did speak with Sterling again He was most impressed with you and hoping you would join him
if he does go to Spain, apparently he has quite a few folks that meet once a week to discuss things
I can only imagine that the group wants Sterling to go too? He mentioned that the "Top" five on the list were all scheduled for special treatment and personal visits??
I mentioned once again that I felt this was a waste of resources and that a more effective model for investigation could be developed,.....he wants me to sit in with his group meetings .
I will never forget what a Purchasing agent once told me at a religious acc't I called on as a kid
it was the Watchtower world headquarters in NYC They own unbelievable pieces of NYC realestate [Jahovah witness].
I was saving them a small fortune with a design I had brought to Him but he still wanted to beat me up
on the costs...I was Quite perterbed,However his statement to me that "Little old ladies went door to door raising money a nickle at at time" for the group.
That Left an impression on me ,he was accountable for his position and his use of the hard earned resources that were shared,in his world there was no other option....
I feel the same accountability needs to work its way into Sterling's Group...
He may not like me too much if I do sit in on his meeting.......
I suspect the "Group" may have quite a bit of influence on what ultimately happens there?
I told him I would give it some thought.
Thx
Chet
OK noted Chet,
The vacuum set screw is to set the vacuum to start with, will not work without, it is part of the way the water splits with the magnet and the RF. It is set when setting up the system by pushing down on the diaphram and letting pressure out, the screw closed and when you release the diaphram you create a vacuum inside.
All will be explained later. You can also build two sets to one flywheel working at 180 degree firing which will give twice the torque ;)
regards
Mike 8)
P.S. I got the impression that he might be going to Abu Dhabi as he is talking to the guy there!!!
As I have explained, I don't think we will get to test anything, just a demo like the video. I get the impression scientists are not welcome C.C and told him to introduce me another way if possible, I have also offered to put him up here of course ;)
regards
Mike 8)
To give you some idea, here is a patent for you to read, I can tell you this works but better is RF and not acoustics or IR. The water MUST BE DISTILLED or it will not work.
http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20120097550
regards
Mike 8)
foregot link, sorry
The RF is capacitively coupled causing the following:-
Initially, the potential at the cathode is sinusoidal with an average value of 0V and peak to peak value up to supply volts. As the potential at the
cathode begins to go positive, a cascade caused by secondary ionizations appears and the highly mobile electrons collide with the cathode, lowering its potential and
therefore causing a potential across the capacitor between the cathode and RF supply. The ions are accelerated away from the cathode, but the distance on they
move is negligible before the field reverses direction. On the next half cycle, the cathode begins to be negative and electrons are accelerated away, increasing in this
way the value of the negative potential. The cathode becomes negative for most of the cycle and ions are accelerated towards it for most of the time. Due, therefore, to
the higher mobility of the electrons, over subsequent cycles the cathode acquires a DC bias consistent with the flux of electrons and ions to the cathode being equal in
subsequent half cycles.
Regards
Mike 8)
Other than using "RF" here is another way it can be done, this infact is how Meyer's system worked, no mistery, the rest is another matter ^-^
Regards
Mike 8)
Mike
post #33 mentions a patent to view [no link].
This is very exciting.....
thx
Chet
Quote from: Chet K on 2014.02.22, 19:19:41
Mike
post #33 mentions a patent to view [no link].
This is very exciting.....
thx
Chet
Sorry, now corrected O0
It's great to see you working on this again, Mike! O0
Between you and Tinman, we should have some exciting things to experiment with here...
About Tinmans results, see if I understand correctly.
Generator delivering 3.25 W for 416 hours (when Chet talked to him) -- that's 1,352 W-h (multiplying).
But the initiating battery is 12 V rated for 7 A-hours. Multiplying, battery has a capacity of 84 W-h.
Thus the output energy is MUCH (16x) larger than the rating on the input battery! plus the voltage on the input battery has not dropped significantly...
These are astounding results, if I've understood correctly what Tinman is saying.
Steve
Yes that is amazing and also accurate [416 hrs 3.25 watt load back to battery] of course this is not the limit ,just how he logs run time to date.
Quite sure he will be raising that run time number.....
I will be calling Brad in about 3hrs [10 AM his time] I don't want to call too early on his only day off.
thx
Chet
Well
Its even more amazing than I realized,Brad is harvesting energy from the outside of the device with a pickup coil during the "Event" [more than half the power].
However I will let him explain from here on out ,
I will be calliing Peter in the AM [about 7hrs from now]to send Brad his Reup papers for freedom energy.
very exciting indeed..........
Thx
Chet
Quote from: Centraflow on 2014.02.22, 12:19:58
Hi All
This is my proposed idea, a separate pdf is being written at the moment to explain the electronics etc, also the N52 magnet at 90 degrees with ref: to scientific papers on increased gas and efficiency. You will note that the water splitting is running off a 25mhz wave generator, this will be explained as well, just give me time to write it all :)
regards
Mike 8)
Dear Mike.
If I have understood your drawing correctly this design is more akin to the Sterling cycle ?? A fixed quantity of working fluid continuously being recycled through the expansion / contraction phases??
I have one simple question does the water have to be replenished over time??
Cheers Graham.
Brad will be going by the name AquaTech
Very good indeed............
Chet
PS For clarity
"House rules" apply ,What's said here stays here until otherwise decided.
as you know Brad has a special date for releasing this.
people who can read here [alphabetical] [All moderators ION POYNT PETERAE]
AquaTech [Brad]
Centraflow
Grumage
itsu
Magluvin
PhysicsProf
Slyder
And Me
thx
Chet
I am glad you guys are already very excited about this, i for the moment refrain
from any comments until i know something more then what i have read here up till now.
Hopefully i will be as excited then as you guys.
Regards Itsu
Quote from: Grumage on 2014.02.23, 10:01:10
Dear Mike.
If I have understood your drawing correctly this design is more akin to the Sterling cycle ?? A fixed quantity of working fluid continuously being recycled through the expansion / contraction phases??
I have one simple question does the water have to be replenished over time??
Cheers Graham.
Hi Grum
Apart from a possible leak, the water does not have to be replaced and it is distilled water for the purpose of the way it is split, which also secures a clean system.
This works in a reactive motion of:- explosive pulse + reactive contraction, H2O<H2+O2 + spark<explosive wave>reactive contraction>H2O, please note the direction arrows, the spark gives the energy gain through an explosive wave, this reaction then creates water again which results in a contraction back to the original vacuum that we started with. Ideally the vacuum to start with should have an inert gas such as argon, this is like the PAPP engine but simpler.
The thing is with the type of water breaking system, it only works under vacuum, so no control is needed for gas production, it is self regulating. Vacuum=gas=pressure=no gas+spark=vacuum again and more gas and so it goes on. The explosion of HHO has a concussive effect before the contracting reaction product of returning to water. As long as you can split a small amount of water with little energy you will have a gain, there are next to no losses with this.
regards
Mike 8)
Dear Mike.
Ok, so it is quite like a sterling cycle engine, but working on a negative pressure differential.
Having read your remarks a few times over, would it be advantageous to provide the cylinder with a water jacket to increase the speed at which the water recombines ??
Cheers Graham.
Quote from: Grumage on 2014.02.23, 19:11:54
Dear Mike.
Ok, so it is quite like a sterling cycle engine, but working on a negative pressure differential.
Having read your remarks a few times over, would it be advantageous to provide the cylinder with a water jacket to increase the speed at which the water recombines ??
Cheers Graham.
Nope, don't think so. I see where your going but if you look at the volume difference between water "be it vapour or not" and hydrogen and oxygen formed from that water, you will see a huge difference. Unlike a sterling engine we are not using heat, it is a pressure/vacuum volume differential at ambient temperature, heat is not needed to create expansion and depending on the volume of water in the system, it probable will not get very warm. Time will tell as I have not built this yet, but see no reason at all that it will not work as designed, lets face it, it is a very simple design with a new angle to the term combustion of water :D
regards
Mike 8)
Dear Mike.
I post this reply with a broad smile !! :)
When you really think about the cycle it is, as you said an expansion and contraction. The only difference, as I see it, is that heat is not used to expand the working fluid !! Otherwise they are exactly the same.
My thoughts now move onto the reasoning behind the use of a Sprag clutch rather than a simple crank. If the piston stroke could be fully ascertained then there would be an area of Dwell over TDC and BDC. I could envisage an advantage here where the dwell could allow for a marked increase in vacuum thereby an increase in atmospheric pressure acting on the down stroke !!
I have designed and built a few Atmospheric engines and the "Inverted design" wins hands down over the conventional arrangement !!
Cheers Graham.
Hi Grum
When you really think about the cycle it is, as you said an expansion and contraction. The only difference, as I see it, is that heat is not used to expand the working fluid !! Otherwise they are exactly the same.
Yes apart from here there is an explosion from the spark
My thoughts now move onto the reasoning behind the use of a Sprag clutch rather than a simple crank. If the piston stroke could be fully ascertained then there would be an area of Dwell over TDC and BDC. I could envisage an advantage here where the dwell could allow for a marked increase in vacuum thereby an increase in atmospheric pressure acting on the down stroke !!
Agreed, but there are problems here as to the incredibly fast change from positive to negative force TDC "super lumina" :D as I recall Brad saying some time back and I agreed with his explanation.
All things being equal "no losses" the vacuum should return to it's start value (water to gas "not vapour", gas to water). I have been playing around in my head of using two pistoms and a beam assembly but still a one way bearing, pushing and pulling at the same time, twice the torque and so a bigger flywheel to run a bigger generator ;)
Best regards
Mike 8)
Well
I am happy that Brad is a member of this board now ,I know that He is very busy with his life and perhaps concerned with getting distracted by another commitment.
He mentioned a simple experiment a few months ago which has to do with harvesting electric power from the combustion event which is running this engine.[at no apparent cost ??]
To me that is the perfect place to start experimenting ,I will give him a call on the weekend
to discuss this [unless he posts it in the mean time ,as this was primarily what he wanted to share here].
thx
Chet
Hi Guy's
Well It's great to be back,and i will try and get thing's up and going as time permit's.My new job involves long hour's,so some weeks i may not be able to get to much up on the board.
Im not sure if you all want to start a clean thread on this subject(the water engine),or just continue on,on this thread?.
Reading some of centraflow's post,i see he has the basic setup of my first prototype. The second larger engine is based around a short srtoke crank,insted of the sprag clutch-but that will come later.
So befor we go any further,i will wait to see if you all wish a clean thread,or just continue on here?
Cheers
\Brad
Brad
Of course its your call ,we just used your old thread for respect and to to keep all your work together.
however I think a new thread would be good [and if you start it you will be moderator]
Thats my vote
Good to see you O0
thx
Chet
Quote from: Chet K on 2014.02.26, 14:01:15
Brad
Of course its your call ,we just used your old thread for respect and to to keep all your work together.
however I think a new thread would be good [and if you start it you will be moderator]
Thats my vote
Good to see you O0
thx
Chet
I go along with that O0
Regards
Mike 8)
Hi All
After your comment Grum, changed design with standard bearing and offset weighted flywheel ;)
regards
Mike 8)
Dear All.
I will agree to any changes as regards the thread. This is, after all, Brad's baby that we are endeavouring to nurture towards a "Strapping Lad" !! O0
Mike.
I have a feeling that you are testing me ?? ;) :)
Your latest drawing has what I feel are a couple of flaws. If you are going with a crank directly coupled to the flywheel drive shaft then it's centreline should be more central to the cylinder. However an esax design ( Offset ) as you have drawn can alter the dwell time at TDC. Secondly the counterbalance weight should be placed 180 deg opposite the Con rod and crank and be of a similar mass to the aforementioned parts.
You have me at a severe disadvantage currently as I have no previous knowledge of Brad's engine. Is there, as Chet has said, a Magnetron involved ? If so, don't they have a heater coil like the old thermionic valves? If so, then I presume that this is running constantly and the HV is pulsed ?? I have at this moment more questions than answers !! But I am eager to build a prototype as soon as some of the major details are disclosed.
Cheers Graham.
Quote
I have a feeling that you are testing me ?? Wink Smiley
>:-)
Yes it was what are the mistakes O0
regards
Mike 8)
Quote from: Centraflow on 2014.02.26, 21:41:29
Quote
I have a feeling that you are testing me ?? Wink Smiley
>:-)
Yes it was what are the mistakes O0
regards
Mike 8)
Dear Mike.
There are more than my previous post ?? Oh dear. I really am at a disadvantage !! :-[
Cheers Graham.
Hi all
Well im off to work now,but i will try and get a sketch of some sort up tonight. But if one of you could start a new thread in the mean time-that would be great. I dont wish to be a moderator or leader in any way,but more just one of the guy's-as time isnt great for me. Once a new thread is started,i will draw up a quick design for a simple test (for those that can make HHO gas).This will show the electrical pulse given of when HHO is ignited-!im not quite sure what kind of energy this is ATM?!
Brad