When he says full wave silicon circuit - im guessing he is talking about a solid state full wave rectifier that would output noisy DC..
Why is he running DC into the input side of a 5U4? The 5U4 is a full wave rectifier....
What am i missing here...
QuoteAnyway, I have taken a high voltage power supply as follows:
500 v-0-500 v 300 mV plate transformer run it through a full wave silicon
circuit then run it through a 5U4 electron tube rectifier.
Now you know that the 5U4 requires 5 volts AC at 3 amps for its heater to
gather the electrons and complete the circuit.
Well, I measured the output from the tube and the result is 500 volts DC
at 250 mV.
The loss is due to the high impedance of the tube and its limited ability to
dissipate more than 250 mA..
The point I wish to make here is that also along with the 500 volt
DC is, yes, you guessed it, the 5 volts three amp AC current!
They are both completely independent of each other except for
some very interesting things I will mention to you some other
time..
First of all, obviously you can have several different output
components in the power output signal.
You can have DC and AC together without any problem.
.
ds.. good question ! I was wondering when the relevance would come into question.
Here is my take
the 5u4 isolates the supply source and prevents feedback reflecting into the preceeding circuits , just like any tube does . I like to think of it as fresh electrons , Steven said "only magic comes out now"
Every coil shoud be driven by fresh electrons . Im sorry it is not a technical explanation.
musos still call this a "soft supply" and like the effect it has on the tonality of the amps when wound up
Lindsay
Thanks Lindsay
If he is full wave DC before the 5U4 - then there is no transformer out of phase effect....
All I could think is he is removing one of the variables ( the AC ) to isolate and identify the effect
I have used 5U4's but never with diodes before it.
The 5U4 would however soften ( take out the solid state diode noise ) the DC but you end up using one side of your tube
maybe that is it.. The 5U4 is two diode tubes in one tube... maybe you need some interaction between diodes?
Unless you actually need a broken path for electron transit.. where the solid state is a physical path.
Seems strange
It may be just about how to get a truly clean supply ..then maybe there is more to it .
It sould be mandatory whatever the case for all tpu research.
It's is strange that not many take the advice , however they see it .
then again a tpu is pretty strange !
morgan jones valve amplifiers 3rd edition page 257 explains the importance well
ss cannot even glimpse at the electon speeds of valves it would seem
I can uplod that book here if its ok Darren?
DS,
It's funny you have been reading that section of the notes....I have as well. This time however, it made a lot more sense than in the past. Interesting how time can allow for a fresh perspective.
Anyhow first of all, "full-wave rectified" doesn't necessarily also mean filtered. ;) I believe he is getting at the notion of applying the rectified wave which results in a strong second harmonic component, the fundamental, and a DC component. This is then being "summed" with the filament 5VAC supply.
My take on the goal of this particular description is to understand one process for creating the "catalyst" as SM puts it. Here, a few frequency components interact in some way to produce the occasional kick. This I believe is the gist of the message, and may have been meant more as a thought experiment. SM quite often takes several angles of approach to explain a single concept.
The message here imho is to create many frequency components (possibly from two sources) and have them adjusted such that their interaction causes maximum effect. The more frequencies the better when taking this "shotgun approach". More refined approaches use specific frequency components and coil arrangements to achieve catalyst (i.e. consistent and bountiful kicks).
Lindsay, if you want to upload that page of the book, I think that is alright. At the moment, I don't think we have the space nor is the forum set to accept such a large file as an entire ebook. Perhaps you could email it out to those folks that are interested in it. I would be. Thanks.
.99
Thanks .99
You do realize that it is not just two transformers out of phase right...
Low volts high amps >>>><<<< high volts low amps seems to be a recurring theme ah-la evgray etc...
Maybe SM was just trying to say that you need a dc bias.
QuoteAnyway, I have taken a high voltage power supply as follows:
500 v-0-500 v 300 mV plate transformer run it through a full wave silicon
circuit then run it through a 5U4 electron tube rectifier.
Now you know that the 5U4 requires 5 volts AC at 3 amps for its heater to
gather the electrons and complete the circuit.
Well, I measured the output from the tube and the result is 500 volts DC
at 250 mV.
The loss is due to the high impedance of the tube and its limited ability to
dissipate more than 250 mA..
The point I wish to make here is that also along with the 500 volt
DC is, yes, you guessed it, the 5 volts three amp AC current!
They are both completely independent of each other except for
some very interesting things I will mention to you some other
time..
First of all, obviously you can have several different output
components in the power output signal.
You can have DC and AC together without any problem.
The only effect I have seen iv seen with transformers out of phase is using a high voltage pulse to expand a magnetic field then crash a lower voltage higher current pulse through it and in theory your lower voltage higher amperage pulse will be compressed " pressurized " by the collapsing magnetic field of the high voltage pulse thus giving you high voltage at high amperage..
I think a lot of these devices may work on some flavor of that.
Quote from: darkspeed on 2010.06.13, 17:46:27
The only effect I have seen iv seen with transformers out of phase is using a high voltage pulse to expand a magnetic field then crash a lower voltage higher current pulse through it and in theory your lower voltage higher amperage pulse will be compressed " pressurized " by the collapsing magnetic field of the high voltage pulse thus giving you high voltage at high amperage..
I think a lot of these devices may work on some flavor of that.
Yes, and just like Tesla state about "resonance" is that you have to link a few lines of force and work them up over time and that you can often do better by just using a transformer to step the voltage up.
Doesn't matter how you get the electric pulse - just get it. The higher the voltage, the faster the rise the stronger the force.
I don't recall if I ever posted this. The date of the original WORD file is 2006-11-25. I converted it to pdf for this post. It may or may not be of value at this point and for this discussion.
Also, this page (http://britneyspears.ac/physics/mobility/mobility.htm) is of some interest regarding electron transit time. A few pico-seconds per 10-5 cm is most likely not the bottle neck in switching speed. I think without question it is the parasitic capacitances and junction storage time effects within SS devices that cripples them compared to valve devices.
.99
Thanks .99!
99..Thanks , that brought be back to that thought train and what we now know
Steven was trying to make as much noise as possible. deliberately !
edit .. too much of a rant , sorry
The switching speed of tubes must be essential to synchronise kicks so that they are permitted to build on themselves
What i find really surprising and should bring some red flag is when the supposed SM talk about Tube and say its faster that the silicon equivalent. ANYBODY who worked with Tubes know that is totally false and proof of that is really easy , just make a simple power supply with a 5U4 as full wave rectifier and make the same with a silicon full bridge rectifier. the switching time is EXTREMELY faster with ANY silicon one.
All video that show the TPU are really the best i ever seen who show a device clearly and without ANY evidence of a fraud but the "Supposed" communication with SM should rise some red flag when the information provided are not accurate, because if that is not accurate, , do the remaining is inaccurate too ?
Best Regards,
IceStorm
A solid state xray machine has never been invented ..have a red flag!
He was not talking about electron transit in a 5U4
He was talking about the input phase vs output phase delay in a triode
and
the input phase vs output phase delay in a transistor
That is why a SSTC looks so different from a VTTC
When your input triggers an output - a transistor because of feedback and number of components will be much slower than a tube
Say you had a trigger coil that receives a pulse and it triggers the triode to pulse - the output pulse will almost be in phase with the input pulse because you are just moving electrons through a few very fast devices.
If you did this with a 1995 transistor ( at low voltage ) your output pulse would be lagging way behind your input pulse..
Quote from: Lindsay Mannix on 2010.06.14, 03:58:37
A solid state xray machine has never been invented ..have a red flag!
LOL The voltage make problem on that type of device for transsitor, so SM used 125Kv+ on the tpu ???
Keep on topic, its just ridiculous, i raised a real concern and you reply with stupidity without even considering what i wrote. Its not a unknown fact that tube is slower than Silicon equivalent so why did you post some non sense like that ?
xrays are here at 21kv
my geiger counter does not lie
I dont even use xray tubes!
LOL now at "the correct voltage for a x-ray machine" ,
http://www.allproducts.com/manufacture97/pioway/product3.html 125Kv max value
Waste of time talking to you , im out, keep your lie about SM for others
Quote from: darkspeed on 2010.06.13, 06:12:32
When he says full wave silicon circuit - im guessing he is talking about a solid state full wave rectifier that would output noisy DC..
Why is he running DC into the input side of a 5U4? The 5U4 is a full wave rectifier....
What am i missing here...
A few basic facts maybe unknown to most:
1. The 'silicon' rectifier 'in-socket' replacements for the tube rectifiers were well known for the noise they generated.
2. 500-0-500 secondary to the silicon was fine but that would be outside the normal operating range for all but a few 5U4GBs.
3. The 5U4GB was the 'high vacuum' variety. There should be less chance of making the tube go bad due to misuse. Addition differences make it oranges & apples to the 5U4.
4. Thermionic emission is normally the result of heating the cathode from the heater filament. Here, the heater filament was also the cathode. An excessive reverse bias to the 5U4GB (with no heater power) would cause thermionic emission to be secondary instead of primary.
5. If you reverse almost everything familiar in a full-wave rectifier and backward-feed another full-wave rectifier you get the following:
a) center tap 500-0-500 secondary
b) each '500' wire connected to the cathode of a 'silicon' rectifier (why mention it was silicon? Even then, it was assumed to be so and not mentioned)
c) the anode of each silicon rectifier connects to an anode of the 5U4GB
d) in one direction - the silicon is overdriving the tube - as the silicon replacements always did - and with a noisy wave. As a rule of thumb; a power supply using silicon rectifiers will develop an HT voltage -under load- that is roughly 1.2 times the RMS voltage delivered by the transformer. No-Load can be much higher.
e) in the other direction the tube is doing the rectifying also placing the silicon in a reverse bias (noise generator anyone?)
That would be valid thoughts while thinking noise generation is the key.
I think this lesson was more than an analogy. I think it is an actual way to see the most basic operating principles of a TPU.
The above is not a bad thing to test but one thing isn't considered. Why are tubes an easier starting point?
My opinion:
Tubes are the easiest way to convert energy in the transverse form to compression waves then back again. How many solid state devices can do that?
Why harp on compression waves again? Because, there is no gain from two waves meeting unless they are both compression waves. Then, is the only time superposition provides real gain. (yes, I know. 'Compression waves' is an oxymoron in the eyes of the classicist. Never the less, they exist in waveguides, the Earth's waveguide and plasma chambers.).
The biggest mistake being repeated is folks try to jump right to SS thinking the conversion state was upgraded by doing it in the SS. Bad mistake. The upgrade was to move the conversion from the tubes to the coils. The controls are just controls.
My opinion - for a late Sunday evening.
Cheers Folks. Have a good week! ;D
xrays gama rays .. start well below what is needed for commercial application but does it not address your switching speed issue that you are sure of ?
please kv test some tubes and out a getter on th outside ..
This is a place to learn the truth ....that is we dont know the real truth . My question is do we really want to know?
Can a greater mind impart knowledge to one not ready to recieve it?
We are all on the edge of something here so it best to be solution based.
It not time to blame our tools yet.
You guys are arguing about things that don't matter.
By the way, when you prevent current from flowing the resultant force is longitudinal. Hell, Lord Kelvin knew this over 100 years ago.
Good one WaveWatcher!
Quote from: Grumpy on 2010.06.14, 04:56:31
You guys are arguing about things that don't matter.
By the way, when you prevent current from flowing the resultant force is longitudinal. Hell, Lord Kelvin knew this over 100 years ago.
Yes but what solid-state device can do that with the resulting force still doing work? (Question sounds idiotic - now that I think about it. Oh Well, maybe the idea will make it across. I know what force will continue on when the switch has opened with almost zero contact open time.)
Also, now that I think back.... The term 'Hash', in the 60's, 70's and later was almost always referring to switching transients of silicon replacements for tube rectifiers. You had to put snubbing caps across them and add a current limiting resistor to clean up the mess.
I'm surprised I remember that bit because of my use of the term 'Hash' in the 60's, 70's a a bit later. ;)
Hello all,
SM gave us a good description how he made his tube rectifier. Maybe its clever to make a drawing and post it? Just an idea.
Maybe then its clever to figure out how to use batteries or a battery as power supply for a TPU? And then to make a drawing about such a configuration? And post it, of course? This is my next idea.
And my next idea is to compare this 2 "systems" - ways to pulse a TPU.
Or, the easiest way, ignore me, ha,ha.
Ohhhh, I have no time for drawings, sorry.
Otto
PS: in 1 video we could see something like a 9V battery?
Quote from: otto on 2010.06.14, 08:29:35
Hello all,
SM gave us a good description how he made his tube rectifier. Maybe its clever to make a drawing and post it? Just an idea.
Maybe then its clever to figure out how to use batteries or a battery as power supply for a TPU? And then to make a drawing about such a configuration? And post it, of course? This is my next idea.
And my next idea is to compare this 2 "systems" - ways to pulse a TPU.
Or, the easiest way, ignore me, ha,ha.
Ohhhh, I have no time for drawings, sorry.
Otto
PS: in 1 video we could see something like a 9V battery?
Here is a quick sketch for you, Otto ;D
Hello all,
OK, nice drawing.
Now show me this but made with a battery. Dont forget that we dont have tubes in our TPUs.
Otto
You wish me to give the whole idea away? Sorry, I don't publish anything without a complete proven theory and I can't prove how it (not a complete TPU) works.
Sorry, there are tubes in mine 8)
Yes, I saw it already a few times, not only here:
OTTO SHUT UP AND FUCK YOURSELF!!
Nice day,
Otto
Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2010.06.14, 05:21:40
Yes but what solid-state device can do that with the resulting force still doing work? (Question sounds idiotic - now that I think about it. Oh Well, maybe the idea will make it across. I know what force will continue on when the switch has opened with almost zero contact open time.)
Also, now that I think back.... The term 'Hash', in the 60's, 70's and later was almost always referring to switching transients of silicon replacements for tube rectifiers. You had to put snubbing caps across them and add a current limiting resistor to clean up the mess.
I'm surprised I remember that bit because of my use of the term 'Hash' in the 60's, 70's a a bit later. ;)
Good question. Peter's SS circuit is doing it, but not in an orderly fashion. Any time-dependent electrical field that has a high enough amplitude and is changing. Happens in the solar system all the time.
Otto
There is no reason to be angry.
You know how it is to share your work openly. The results are seldom positive.
I prefer to know if my idea is just another mistake before sharing. Most have been stupid mistakes.
The tube version I shared was not a complete mistake and has matured a bit.
Still, it is not at the progress of your work.
If you wish a battery vesion of my sketch replace the iron core with an iron laminated ring and feed it with a simple multivibrator. Make the coils so you can move them around the ring. So far, mine is just a very strange noise generator.
When I have it working better I will replace the iron with a folded copper loop so one half will see reverse polarity.
Then, the plan is to introduce four quadrants of radial magnetic polarization to make any moving charges produce unidirectional flow through that copper folded ring.
Quote from: Grumpy on 2010.06.14, 13:08:07
Good question. Peter's SS circuit is doing it, but not in an orderly fashion. Any time-dependent electrical field that has a high enough amplitude and is changing. Happens in the solar system all the time.
My honest opinion:
The coil is doing it to the core conductor. There is almost no indication of such induction if the spike isn't sharp and short. It is a simple matter of orientation.
In normal induction both wires are oriented the same way to the fields of the other. Yea, you can twist the iron core around and make it look different and still work but the the magnetic field of the core is in the middle doing the twisting.
In-short... normal induction works when the primary and secondary are parallel to one another.
Peter's is different. It is more like a knife cutting through the wire while perpendicular to that wire. As long as that is the only action going on he will only see very short spikes. These spike are from the mag field of the CC turn cutting through the cross-section of the core wire. This will generate almost no usable energy and the spikes will be positive and negative (field passing through the core and then returning).
Obviously, there is more to his results.... the explosions and following bursts.
I believe the coil wrapped the length of the core is to provide the magnetic bias to help make the A field unidirectional. The coil that should be pulsed to perp induce into the core should be elongated or elliptical. That core cannot be equidistant from all points of the inner surface of the pulsed coil because dead center is the nulling point for those pulses.
Each core should be wrapped as Peter's is. But, there should be two or more such coils. Each at extreme ends of the widest inner part of a larger pulsed elliptical overwrap.
I have not confirmed if those loops should be individual loops or two loops folded from one.
This is why I cannot believe the SS matters except to start the process and keep it under control. The sharper and shorter time for the pulses the better. Once the energy becomes unidirectional the gaps would be filled by new pulses. However, this is probably near the level of the latest TPUs seen.
I'll be very happy if I can make one work that required magnets and I don't mean for tripping switches.
I very much doubt any high energy electronics is required.
In any case, it is very good different directions are traveled. Someone is sure to find the right path.
Peter has the high energy anomalies. I have a steady but very low DC output with rectifier noise on top. I could probably light a LED if I used a joule thief but it would never power the multivibrator generating red noise for the perp induction. A dead end for me. It is like a shadow of a virtual N-machine that will never do better.
So back to the board etching and rectifier garbage output experiments on my bench. My priority is to duplicate Peter's results so I can run tests with equipment I use for work. It is very slow working through an 8" magnifying glass - my problem not the circuit's.
The pulse has nothing to do with the collector.
The pulse creates the force.
The force works on the medium.
The medium induces current in the collector provided the right conditions exist.
"Hash" was also produced by gas rectifier tubes and required extra filtering with chokes to quench it. (early ARRL manuals from the 40's and 50's will show circuits for this)
I built a single tube radio transmitter in the early 50's using a gas triode. It produced lots of hash across the whole AM band along with several strong carriers at various frequencies. Type 885 tube I think....Still have it somewhere.
Also gas rectifiers such as 0Z4 used in early AM car radios produced lots of "hash" and required filtering.
When the filters failed you could hear what sounded like white noise getting into the audio section.
Quote from: ION on 2010.06.15, 02:27:06
"Hash" was also produced by gas rectifier tubes and required extra filtering with chokes to quench it. (early ARRL manuals from the 40's and 50's will show circuits for this)
I built a single tube radio transmitter in the early 50's using a gas triode. It produced lots of hash across the whole AM band along with several strong carriers at various frequencies. Type 885 tube I think....Still have it somewhere.
Also gas rectifiers such as 0Z4 used in early AM car radios produced lots of "hash" and required filtering.
When the filters failed you could hear what sounded like white noise getting into the audio section.
might this noise be full spectrum?
Quote from: ION on 2010.06.15, 02:27:06
"Hash" was also produced by gas rectifier tubes and required extra filtering with chokes to quench it. (early ARRL manuals from the 40's and 50's will show circuits for this)
I built a single tube radio transmitter in the early 50's using a gas triode. It produced lots of hash across the whole AM band along with several strong carriers at various frequencies. Type 885 tube I think....Still have it somewhere.
Also gas rectifiers such as 0Z4 used in early AM car radios produced lots of "hash" and required filtering.
When the filters failed you could hear what sounded like white noise getting into the audio section.
Now there is an old memory :)
I thought the OZ4 was only found in GM car radios. Cold cathode gasser with some kind of ion bombardment to preheat the cathode.
I remember calling that noise 'Johnson noise'. Right or wrong it was noisy into the low RF ranges when those old rectangular mica caps busted.
Didn't those vibrator based power supplies run 200-400Hz?
An 885 as a transmitting tube? Wow, can't imagine that working very well. Those things are either on or off. I don't recall any 'in-between'. As I recall... they didn't actually turn off until the plate current hit zero. They must of had parts of the curve I never tried :D
QuoteAn 885 as a transmitting tube? Wow, can't imagine that working very well. Those things are either on or off. I don't recall any 'in-between'. As I recall... they didn't actually turn off until the plate current hit zero. They must of had parts of the curve I never tried
Nothing magic here. With a tuned tank coil as the plate load, ringing in the coil/cap would force the plate current to zero thus repeating the cycle (commutation). The crystal microphone was fed directly into the grid which was biased a bit.
The 885 /6Q5 is a lot like an SCR and is in the thyratron class. SCR's can be made to commutate and therefore oscillate by using inductive loads. Properly applied they can be very robust as high power oscillators.
Check out T. Fairbairn's IONIC gas tube oscillators that put out near pure sine waves up to 875 kHz without tuned circuits. Not to be confused with relaxation oscillator mode.
http://www.fripro.com/other%20FAIRBAIRN%20inventions.htm#Gas%20Oscillator
"One miniature thyratron, the triode 6D4, found an additional use as a potent noise source, when operated as a diode in a transverse magnetic field. Sufficiently filtered for "flatness" ("white noise") in a band width of interest, such noise was used for testing radio receivers, servo systems and occasionally in analog computing as a random value source. An example small thyratron R.C.A. brand 885 Triode Thyratron The 885 is a small thyratron tube, using xenon gas. This device was used extensively in the timebase circuits of early oscilloscopes in the 1930s."
complete article here: http://www.amazines.com/Business/article_detail.cfm/1698756?articleid=1698756
ION,
My dealings with thyratrons has always been 'destructive' :D They have a longer life than most devices I've used but I couldn't imagine them lasting long enough to be a radio transmitter. Maybe I should have tried with something less than kiloamps :)
Thank you for the Fairbairn info. Do you know if that mercury vapor diode ever made it to market? I have a pretty good idea the military has been using them since the 60's.
At this moment I'm wondering if two were used in the largest TPU.....
Hello all,
I need HEEEEEELP!
Maybe some clever people know where I can buy some P channel and N channel KOMPLEMENTARY JFETs??
Please dont say Farnell because Im the last 2 weeks on their site and found nothing usefull.
Otto
PS: sorry Im off topic but....
Otto,
Perhaps this will help? http://users.tpg.com.au/users/ldbutler/NegResDipMeter.htm
I had a need for a jfet complementary pair. My final solution was found in the above link. I never found a pair built like a darlington bi-polar.
Wave Watcher,
thanks for the link.
The best solution would be that a P channel and a N channel J FET pair is "packed" like in a IC. Then they would be complementary. But to buy such a clever made part is almost impossible. Today we have only seperated JFETs and much more of the N channel then P channel.
It seems that I have to continue to wright my looooong list with N and P channel JFETs from Farnell and buy there a lot of types so I can finally finnish the TPU "story".
If someone is wondering what and why, just read wikipedia, JFETs. Did the autor mention "water" and something? Have we misunderstood SM?
Otto
@otto
Sorry to for off topic response to your off topic question. lol
I just had confirmation that Semisouth.com will be shipping me two of each of these JFETs.
$28.47 each. - SJDP120R085 - Normally ON
$51.84 each. - SJEP120R063 - Normally OFF
I will be nervous when using these. lol
On my thread at OU.com @gyulasun put up another link to a potential supplier that may be much cheaper.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/163776-zhou-fangs-sales-thread-parts-you-always-wanted-but-hard-get-they-here.html
Hope this helps.
wattsup
OMG.
I found an image I had put up way back of the underside of the FTPU center hole indicating that it looked like there was a battery there. In my mind I always had the vacuum tube image always having a pointy top like the left tube in the image below, but 5U4s come with the top end rounded like the right tube. You can see the FTPU image I am talking about.
In the OTPU you can see there may be a tube in a metal casing there also. Only visible in a few frames. Is it possible he actually just used tubes to run these two TPUs. I'll grab the image tonight but now I have to get to the office.
JFET's
n channel JFET, e.g., 2N5457 http://www.physics.csbsju.edu/trace/2N5457.trace.html
p channel JFET, e.g., 2N5460 http://www.physics.csbsju.edu/trace/2N5460.trace.html
Quote from: otto on 2010.06.16, 11:32:33
Have we misunderstood SM?
I think so.
Hi Wattsup...regarding the tube images, neither of those you posted are 5U4 envelopes. The tube on the left looks like a TV damper diode, HV rectifier or Horizontal oscillator. The tube on the right is a type 6550 beam power pentode. The envelope is wider at the base and squatter than the 5U4.
I think a type 5AR4 would have been more of a fit inside the spool, if it was used at all.
What I see appears there are two of a much smaller glass envelope diameter than a 5ar4. They are horizontal one stacked above the other and hid under the tape on the side closest to SM in most videos. The pins are on the right. The silicon rectifiers are more easily seen. One epoxy style below the magnet on the left. A top-hat style directly across from the other. Both on the outer diameter of the lower ring.
I think it is possible he used cold cathode and or gas types.
Hi Wavewatcher
I agree with your assessment and was amazed to find the Fairbairn gas diodes and triodes. I wish my eyes were good enough to see some of the things others can see in the low res captures.
Wattsup has done a great job tracing out a lot of the wiring on the FTPU. A updated sketch or pictorial would be helpful, could you put together a sketch of what you see? I would be very interested in your take on this.
Thanks
Sorry.
Even with my wild imagination, there isn't enough to come up with even a partial circuit.
The closest I've come, with minimal guess work, are the secondaries of the transformer and the silicon rectifiers shown on the last image I posted in this thread.
Sorry, Wattsup. I always have problems with the custom nomenclature. When I was speaking of tubes above, I was talking about what you would call the OTPU.
In the FTPU (I never figured how folks decided it was the first one), there could be a tube in the center. I don't see any evidence of it but who can tell?
If there is one in the center it would be a gassy one with no getter ring and horribly over driven (in my TPU understanding, anyway). I think a 1AX2 would fit nicely in there. Stick one in the middle of an axial field speaker magnet and hit it with about 20kV reverse bias. All kinds of crap happens. Be wary of what does. It'll expose photographic film a couple of feet away.
I couldn't imagine anyone thinking that was a good thing so I took a different route.
Steven said that tubes doNOT need to be inside the ring only ss must be ...but that could be a tube or a battery.
magnetic fields from transformers can upset the process if close to the unit.
Yes.
It could be for the early ones that point hadn't been understood(location of tubes & SS etc.).
On the nearby transformer thought: maybe it wasn't the fields of the transformers that had an effect. Maybe the common transformer does more than folks think.
They could be stealing the mojo from the TPU :D
I'll tell you all what mojo is after I cook up a theory for it ;)
this is a AA rechargable.. you can see it better in the videos its yellow with silver ends.. it has a white wire going to it on one side
Quote from: kooler on 2010.06.17, 01:17:07
this is a AA rechargable.. you can see it better in the videos its yellow with silver ends.. it has a white wire going to it on one side
It has been rumored that SM used batteries for his oscillator circuit.
yeah,
i thought i'd show people were this one was.. but whats in the middle of the spool i have no idea..
i figured he used the batterys to trigger the gates of fets or transistors..
robbie
Wish my eyes worked as well as other folks.
Regardless of video enhancement, my large screen and long hours, the only things I've been able to identify, for certain, were not batteries in any TPU.
Hello all,
@wattsup
thanks but I was thinking about little JFETs that you can buy for a few cents.
@Grumpy
yes, something like you mentioned. 2N....... or something like this, BF .....something cheap
@Mannix
I tried a lot of times to place my MOSFETs inside the TPU and I saw that nothing changed. But if you place the 3 oscillators and the MOSFETs inside the TPU then its a totally different "story".
Otto
@ otto
That's what he said about ss
I wonder if you are using the latest coil config.
perhaps a picture for us all?
@Lindsay,
you want that I post my "secret"?? Heeeeeeey, then it would be so obvious whats going on in a TPU....
Im just joking about the "secret". OK, a picture will follow but I have to make the drawing. a complete drawing? With all I know?
Otto
Hello all,
sorry guys, now I see that my scanner is at home so I can post my pictures tomorrow. Sorry again.
Otto
Yes , that's what we are here for . this stuff will never see light unless it becomes well known.
the real challenge is to make that happen without being buried in somebody's money/gvt pit.
not many have had the courage and wisdom, in the past.
expect criticism and dis belief..some will call you a liar even!
So please show us what you made
Lindsay
Lindsay,
as said, tomorrow.
I dont care what the people will say. I dont have money but on the other hand I dont care about money. The point is to share and Im willing to share. Its SMs discovery and invention and he wanted that we "rediscover" it. I cant imagine that I would get money that belongs SM. So, I dont care about money.
Yes, I have spent a lot of money in the last 3 years but its a "part" of the TPU so I have to live with it. It really doesnt matter.
Whats now important for me is to get N and P channel JFETs to really achieve superconduction in my TPU.
Uuuuupppppsssss.....
Otto
Otto, while we are waiting i thought to share a little simple circuit.
Here is a tube based noise generator that I cannot get to run in simulation, but works in practice.
r3 should be much lower in fact it would be nice to have it as low as is possible
The zener is the noise source but other reversed biased semis will do .
the tube should be a 6bq7 12 au7 12 ax7 etc ..something to build on anyway
the trick is to gather a portion of the kick from inside the inductor( collector) and create a sync pulse which will momentarily blank the noise that the tube is dealing with.
another stage may be necessary to achieve this . and another 2 oscillators and inductors a bit later.
The deal is taht the noise keeps the tube in random state that would not other wise but the return little kick will synchronise due to the control collector physical relationship.
it should ultimately allow multiple frequencies to combine within the space of the collector coil
THis is not from steven , just my current experiment setup.
@otto
I have.......
100 x PN4117A - N-Channel JFET - Type TO-92
100 x PN4118A - N-Channel JFET - Type TO-92
080 x PN4416A - N-Channel JFET - Type TO-92 (I blew 20 of them - lol)
Or, just tell me which ones you want and I will get them for you. No Problemo.
@Lindsay Mannix
Quote from: Lindsay Mannix on 2010.06.16, 22:11:55
Steven said that tubes do NOT need to be inside the ring only ss must be ...but that could be a tube or a battery.
magnetic fields from transformers can upset the process if close to the unit.
Yes and that just may be the effect he was looking for. A quenched vacuum tube. You can quench reed switches, spark gaps, etc., so why would an "energized" red hot cathode be any different. It just might lower the plate voltage but increase the amperage. Don't know, but I will start looking into tubes.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=2535.msg211095#msg211095
@ALL
I was going to post a rather long post but decided it will just complicate things for nothing. This has been happening to me lately where I don't even post 4 out of 5 posts. It is my way of making sure I do not stray others away from their works.
So here is a question instead.
Does anyone know if a vacuum tube cathode rated at 5 volts AC input and 400 volts output (forget the mA's) is driven at 2 volts AC, will it still provide some output. This is an important question. If it does not produce anything until you actually provide the rated input to "fully energize" the cathode, then the vacuum tube analogy could mean that the TPU has to be driven at a given voltage to start working, otherwise you will just get some volts via any form of induction present in the circuit but no real effect. If it does, then it means the device can work with gain and gradually increase its own applied input.
Example: I have noticed on one of my toroidal coils that at low input voltage pulses, not much was on the secondary side but add just one more volt and the output jumps in increments of 10. So there is a minimum required to really move the effect. But very often at that level the mosfets get real hot and when you hit the wrong frequency they just fizz.
Hmmmmm. That's one good thing about tubes - they are already in a constant state of fizz.
@EMDevices
I did a Google search for "quenched vacuum tube". Amazingly only got two hits. One at OU.com (linked under Mannix) and another one below which is a pdf file and thought it may be good reading for your present orientation of the HV lines. It might give you some ideas but it is way over my head.
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBQQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hlektronika.gr%2Ffiles%2Findex.php%3Fact%3Ddownload%26id%3D67&rct=j&q=%22quenched+vacuum+tube%22&ei=k4kZTILSGIOKlwfetvzJCw&usg=AFQjCNH3hgu9R7GQ7vI4PKlx9HlMmKrsrg
I forgot that I promised today to put up a photo of the OTPU were there could be a tube in a metal casing. Not the metal casing that goes to the output wires. Another one.
Also, I know the above image of the two tubes was not the 5U4s but just wanted to show two tubes with different tops. The smooth topped one could be what is seen under the FTPU.
Quote from: Lindsay Mannix on 2010.06.17, 12:30:40
Otto, while we are waiting i thought to share a little simple circuit.
Here is a tube based noise generator that I cannot get to run in simulation, but works in practice.
Lindsay,
I think your DC power supply is backwards. This might explain why the sim doesn't work.
.99
@ watts up,
you have a good point about the rectifier tube . you might need my "statrer motor" though
Hi all
I don't know if anyone caught this from my earlier post but check out the frequency initial accuracy of the gas diode oscillator +/- 20 Hz out of 500kHz. Don't know what the frequency stability over temperature would be but that's a nice "out of the box" initial accuracy.
Considering it puts out near pure sine waves with no additional components is pretty amazing.
Apparently ion-acoustic oscillations are obtainable as Moray King (Tapping The Zero Point Energy) and T. Henry Moray theorized about. In the latter case T. Moray may have actually succeeded in the entrainment of electrons with his ionic oscillations.
Something like this would easily fit into any of the TPU's
Wattsup:
QuoteDoes anyone know if a vacuum tube cathode rated at 5 volts AC input and 400 volts output (forget the mA's) is driven at 2 volts AC, will it still provide some output.
As the emission (filament voltage) is varied, the density of electron flow from the cathode to the plate will vary, all other relationships (plate voltage, grid bias being fixed)...thus the plate current will change. This will generate a family of transconductance curves. A weak tube usually has low emission because the coating on the cathode that emits electrons has boiled off. This would be somewhat similar to reducing filament voltage. Does this help?
Into my Fender Super Reverb I built a fuzz circuit with a 6AL5 dual diode clipper where the hardness or softness of clipping was adjusted with a potentiometer that varied the filament voltage.
Quote from: ION on 2010.06.17, 13:47:50
Hi all
I don't know if anyone caught this from my earlier post but check out the frequency initial accuracy of the gas diode oscillator +/- 20 Hz out of 500kHz. Don't know what the frequency stability over temperature would be but that's a nice "out of the box" initial accuracy.
Considering it puts out near pure sine waves with no additional components is pretty amazing.
Apparently ion-acoustic oscillations are obtainable as Moray King (Tapping The Zero Point Energy) and T. Henry Moray theorized about. In the latter case T. Moray may have actually succeeded in the entrainment of electrons with his ionic oscillations.
Something like this would easily fit into any of the TPU's
Wattsup:
As the emission (filament voltage) is varied, the density of electron flow from the cathode to the plate will vary, all other relationships (plate voltage, grid bias being fixed)...thus the plate current will change. This will generate a family of transconductance curves. A weak tube usually has low emission because the coating on the cathode that emits electrons has boiled off. This would be somewhat similar to reducing filament voltage. Does this help?
Into my Fender Super Reverb I built a fuzz circuit with a 6AL5 dual diode clipper where the hardness or softness of clipping was adjusted with a potentiometer that varied the filament voltage.
Ion-acoustic oscillations - bingo! - there are many terms for this but all are a longitudinal electric wave, hence "acoustic"
a clipper would convert the beautiful sine waves into near-square waves - but sine waves work too. Just because a transverse wave is fed in, does not mean that a transverse wave comes out.
What is the max voltage of the tube?
Hi G
Can't make out the label but looks like 10 or 16 volts, probably higher to ignite, current must be limited to 30 mA. Ion-acoustic oscillations may the missing link in the 5U4 circuit SM talks about. If the tube became "gassy" for any reason it may have exhibited the Ion-Acoustic mode of oscillation.
Heavy ionized atoms oscillating longitudinally may other have peculiar effects besides stable frequency and near pure sine wave.
I highly recommend reading "Tapping the Zero Point Energy"...Moray B. King has many references to this mode of oscillation in that volume.
That little tube will add oscillation to any signal you put in, including DC.
It probably never took off because changing its orientation to the Earth would stop the oscillation or reverse it.
Remember someone playing with an arc lamp tube, not long ago?
Where do we find these little gems?
BTW: wouldn't these be classified as NRO's?
"Ion-acoustic oscillations - bingo! - there are many terms for this but all are a longitudinal electric wave, hence "acoustic"
a clipper would convert the beautiful sine waves into near-square waves - but sine waves work too. Just because a transverse wave is fed in, does not mean that a transverse wave comes out."
see plasma spectral analisys
http://jlnlabs.online.fr/plasma/html/s_gdp3.htm
http://books.google.ch/books?id=2SUDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA94&lpg=PA94&dq=radio+with+cold+cathode&source=bl&ots=b3jLjcpoie&sig=aPWggBNM4fwD1J1DUyE7BscJDHE&hl=it&ei=sHEaTLjBOqWcOKCk2KMK&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBjge#v=onepage&q=radio%20with%20cold%20cathode&f=true
Quote from: ION on 2010.06.17, 17:35:45
Hi G
Can't make out the label but looks like 10 or 16 volts, probably higher to ignite, current must be limited to 30 mA. Ion-acoustic oscillations may the missing link in the 5U4 circuit SM talks about. If the tube became "gassy" for any reason it may have exhibited the Ion-Acoustic mode of oscillation.
Heavy ionized atoms oscillating longitudinally may other have peculiar effects besides stable frequency and near pure sine wave.
I highly recommend reading "Tapping the Zero Point Energy"...Moray B. King has many references to this mode of oscillation in that volume.
might be able to detect them around the tube as you can around a spark gap
switch some hv over some hv dc and you will definitely measure something
guess what else you can make oscillate longitudinally?
99.
its fixed , sorry but it will not simulate . I threw that together for the graphic and screwed the dc polarity. I have tried many times before . Perhaps is due to the non conventional noise from the zener.
If you could work this in simulation I would be grateful to learn why Im not able to.
just the zener/resistor part would be enough.
I use multisim ..perhaps not the best?
wattsup.
the rectifier tube between the control and collector may be exactly the context in which they are used as the process increases itself.
Lindsay,
I'll see what I can come up with.
Can you send me the spice txt model for that 6SF5 tube? Or are you using a different tube model?
I don't think there is much wrong with the zener portion of your circuit, although I would recommend going up to a 50k pot and using a 10k limiting resistor in series with it.
Analog white noise generators are simply an amplified zener noise source, so a good common cathode amplifier stage is called for.
Darren
Iv never done a tube in a sim... do you have to sim a voltage / current to the filament for it to work?
Most tube simulation models do not include the heater filament, and when they do, it is only a dissipative element. It has no effect on the tube model operation.
.99
Simulating semiconductor-generated noise may not be easy. I'll try a few things, as AF and KF are not normally included in diode and BJT SPICE models, although they can be. Coming up with numbers for these parameters, and whether this will actually cause output noise is the question.
From Raghuram, R. - Computer Simulation of Electronic Circuits:
.99
The real point that im trying to show here is that simulators are only for "convential" known design paramaters.
the tube here is a 12ax7 " on th bench" it matters not what tube or what zener .
Convential circuits simulate well but just a simple zener does not , except in conventional mode.
A tube also does not similaute well when we build a simple circuit on the bench , then expect the simulator to help us with anything other than gain and biasing in conventional mode. The mode that transistirs do better in.
Of course we could make those paramaters ...If known. Noise, of couse would have to have a floor and a ceiling , so they would never be real.
Our tools have limitations . The reality of the bench, especially with what we are all trying to do here WILL NOT simulate.
To quote a well known cereberal masturbator " we are looking for known , unknowns"
I hope I have made the point clear ..no Pun intended
Please do it on the bench and use the devices recommeneded as a first stage .
Any other device regarding SM tpu will need lots and lots of luck , and you will never understand what happened let alone repeat it .
been there done that... as have many of you .
BUT, otto's drawings are your base .
for 5 years I have been the megssenger for this small and vital piece of advice HELLO !
I have failed to date perhaps?
It wont be long before tubes are all gone from everybody's thinking .. of should i say programming?
Lindsay
Something To clarify
Almost all information passed by myself from Steven was only ever to enable the effect to be rediscovered ..It was not intended to create the video version of the tpu..BUT the initial aha moment at witch there would be no doubt about the energy available. That has always been seen as a reasonable request by him.
He has express doubt that any body will replicate using ss as the circuits are far more complicated and propriety.
You haven't completely failed.
Gotta noisy tube amp? Insert a variable resistor in the heater line. Crank the voltage down - slowly. The quality of the sound may actually improve.
I doubt that 'heater starvation' is in any simulator.
Working on my 'adjustable winding position ring transformer' now. :)
BTW: When I said 'variable resistor' above... Use Ohm's Law and figure heat radiated. This one couldn't handle the current so another was used. I can just imagine somebody smoking a volume control from rat-shack :'(
Lindsay,
In the communication about tubes and mention of voltages and current.... do you think the transposed use of 'mv' instead of the expected 'ma' was a typo by SM or yourself? SM doesn't sound like someone who would make such a mistake and I don't know what method was used to put the text on the site (cut&paste, retype?).
of course .. he apolagised for that.
correct about the zener current , limiting is required in " reality"
'Zener'?
I assumed the reference to a silicon rectifier may have eluded to the noise generating part which can happen with almost any diode. I don't recall the posted text including 'zener'. I've had interesting results with 'snap-off' or step recovery silicon types, along with the noise.
My assumptions are he probably stumbled upon the SRD function of silicon diodes because I can easily believe the pulse from step recovery could be used in any TPU. I've read 'scientific' arguments about the total power not equaling total accounting of power.
Of course, a current limiting resistor just goes with a silicon rectifier replacing a tube ;)
Hi Lindsay
QuoteIt wont be long before tubes are all gone from everybody's thinking .. of should i say programming?
I for one will keep collecting and building with tubes. Recently bought a batch of several hundred at an auction for $5. Included 5U4's and some 6BQ7's, lots of other power tubes. My collection is in the thousands.
I'm gonna dig up that 885 gas tube and build the Fairbairn oscillator just for old times sake. I found the Fairbairn patent.....1952. Here it is:
ION that sure is a "tube frequency source"
good one !
An update on modeling semiconductor noise in SPICE:
The AF and KF parameters will work in diode and BJT SPICE models, but the results obtained can only be viewed using an AC noise analysis in SPICE. No noise signal will be seen using a transient analysis.
If you want to "see" noise in a transient analysis, the noise has to be generated as a source, i.e. from a random number generator, PWL source, or ABM source.
.99
Quote from: ION on 2010.06.20, 01:48:23
Hi Lindsay
I for one will keep collecting and building with tubes. Recently bought a batch of several hundred at an auction for $5. Included 5U4's and some 6BQ7's, lots of other power tubes. My collection is in the thousands.
I'm gonna dig up that 885 gas tube and build the Fairbairn oscillator just for old times sake. I found the Fairbairn patent.....1952. Here it is:
From Moray King:
QuoteION-ACOUSTIC OSCILLATIONS
The real proof that the zero-point energy could become an energy source can only come from a repeatable experiment. The above discussion suggests that the motion of a plasma's nuclei might be an effective transducer for interacting with the ZPE.
The coherent oscillations of nuclei in a plasma is known as the ion-acoustic mode, and it has been associated with anomalous plasma behavior including run-away electrons (28), anomalous heating (29-31), anomalous resistance (32), and high frequency voltage spikes (33-35). Could these anomalies be associated with a direct ZPE interaction manifesting a macroscopic vacuum polarization (36)?
The inventor T. Henry Moray (37) stressed the importance of ion oscillations in the plasma tubes of his invention that produced 50 kilowatts of anomalous electrical power in the 1930's. His well-witnessed invention could not be explained with the physics of that time, and puzzled all the scientists who investigated his device.
Quote from: poynt99 on 2010.06.20, 12:55:32
An update on modeling semiconductor noise in SPICE:
The AF and KF parameters will work in diode and BJT SPICE models, but the results obtained can only be viewed using an AC noise analysis in SPICE. No noise signal will be seen using a transient analysis.
If you want to "see" noise in a transient analysis, the noise has to be generated as a source, i.e. from a random number generator, PWL source, or ABM source.
.99
It is clearly demonstratabe that pn junctions , when reversed biased create high noise ..every one of them.
It is not what we might usually want but ..please a 10k resistor , a zener or a led or a transistor ,scope it ...see the noise !
we shunt it away with caps and filters to get rid of it. Those dirty ss devices than Steven pointed out are every where in our circiuts and are NOT what we want for pure frequency.
Feedback is used to keep it down too.
Simulators are useless as they assume we will design with convention in mind .
That said, a noise generator, like petare has shared can be useful for finding resonance points in coils that we might other wise miss.
But only one source per circuit and clean after that .
we would not want distortion and noise in our frequency correction signal at the exact moment that we needed to use it would we?
If we knew exactly waht we were doing we might be able to put up with delays and noise and regenerate it at the right phase,even if it was a bit late and messed up by the pn junctions...that is privided that they did not just sut down because of the field generated by the device.
http://www.physorg.com/news162132202.html
Quote from: Lindsay on 2010.06.17, 12:30:40
Here is a tube based noise generator that I cannot get to run in simulation, but works in practice.
Poynt was only trying to help you understand your simulation problem by explaining how Noise can be simulated, he was only trying to help so dont knock him, Simulation is a great tool for understanding the circuits we need to build and get working to produce our end goal.
I am not saying that a sim would show OU, who knows but it certainly shows how to build working electronics for our drivers and to understand whats going on in conventional terms.
Hello all,
here a little story for you:
I was yesterday in my friends lab. He is a profi researcher and has the best meters, scopes, PCs that you can buy. Of course he is educated to use all of this.
He wanted to simulate what I have shown you: a MOSFET driven with 2 JFETs. He is not working with spice but he told me that his program is much better. I laught because...
And in a few minutes we had the result:
square waves from a 555 into 2 JFETs, 1 N and 1 P channel.
Output was again the same square waves, maybe more positive or negative, it doesnt matter.
I was like an idiot laughing again.
At home I made the same setup on my workbench.
Result:
square waves with kicks!!
Can a simulation program simulate the dirt in a SS?
No?
Then why are you not listening to Lindsay or do you think he is not qualified enough? Ha!
Yes, but its much easier to simulate then to work on a workbench
Otto
Lindsay was the one trying to simulate the noise, Poynt tried helping him to do it?
@Peterae
its OK but what I wanted to say is that a simulation program doesnt work for a TPU. Especially not for pulsed coils and it seems for all pulsed SS.
It would be to easy to simulate and then to build a TPU.
Otto
Thanks Peter.
This was all probably a misunderstanding.
I assumed Lindsay wanted some assistance trying to get a simulation to work, and I posted my findings on it. At no time did I ever assume this exercise was related to OU nor to kicks in the TPU. It was simply an engineering exercise to see if it was possible to simulate a white noise generator using semiconductor junctions using SPICE.
I think some may have assumed differently. We've been through the simulation saga before and I think we all agree that simulation and OU are mutually exclusive entities. It should be clear that the two don't mix, and whenever I use simulation, it is for engineering purposes. I hope it isn't taken any other way. Consider this saga closed ;)
.99
simulation "did" show that the bifilar experiment produced a compressed pulse, which is pretty good
I believe this is another way to 'spike' the coils.
Quote from: Grumpy on 2010.06.23, 14:18:50
simulation "did" show that the bifilar experiment produced a compressed pulse, which is pretty good
Also, the noise sits in 2 places. One is the SS ckt and two is in the ring itself. These both are connected by the floating ground. The natural resonance of the coils would reject the noise while preserving the slim bandwith of operation, 5khz. The noise in the ring would be fedback to the ground thus stimulating the SS ckt into hyperjack. And on it goes. This is where I am heading next. The floating ground creates a capture ckt where without it we get spewing i.e. the GK4 RE episode and others.
'Hyperjack' is new term I came up with. What do you all think? It is the opposite of standard noise filtering. I will use this new term when talking about 'chaotic coercion' in my dissertations like I have a PHD. LOL. :D I am sure its all been done before.
Since the TPU is floating 'Where does the noise go?'.
noise may show the effect, but it will be chaotic
What "floating ground"? Ground is deternmined by direction of flow which is determiend by fields and windings
By 'floating' I mean as the device sits in space magnetically. There is no way to exclude the noise but to use it. We have to! It is in the circuit therefore in the field. And would there not be accumulative harmonics as the noise bandwith heterodynes with itself, the natural frequency or determined frequency and the previous spikes/captures/filtering of the ramping up scenario?
Looks to me like the 'Stumbled upon' is an alternative specificational clause. This still looks like an audio feedback loop but not frequency specific at the start. The 5khz is the baseline bias that all the noise heterodynes into. The thumping is the 'Woot'(text exclamation term).
Starting to look like a shitty Rodin coil.
Quote from: giantkiller on 2010.06.23, 16:59:43
By 'floating' I mean as the device sits in space magnetically. There is no way to exclude the noise but to use it. We have to! It is in the circuit therefore in the field. And would there not be accumulative harmonics as the noise bandwith heterodynes with itself, the natural frequency or determined frequency and the previous spikes/captures/filtering of the ramping up scenario?
Looks to me like the 'Stumbled upon' is an alternative specificational clause. This still looks like an audio feedback loop but not frequency specific at the start. The 5khz is the baseline bias that all the noise heterodynes into. The thumping is the 'Woot'(text exclamation term).
Starting to look like a shitty Rodin coil.
"Harmonics" has nothing to do with it. Nothing what-so-ever. Like SM said: the energy comes from within the device, and it's just knowledge of the coils and how they interact - kudo's to SM
Noise is just that - noise. It is not controlled or directed. It's all over the place at the same time. This makes it worthless for control reactions.
To me this next statement is far reaching and profound:
The noise in solid state is equivalent to the field usage in the tube based configuration. In others words in a feedback loop based on SS you get distortion. In a tube circuit the fidelity adds to the feedback causing equipment destruction.
We are simply talking about two different transmissive mediums. Attempts to switch this around results in no effect. No noise in tubes and no fidelity in Solid state. So now look at the different configurations again and tell me what you all see.
Fidelity, spark gaps, SS switching. These all have there own coil configurations and processes. This is the starting point for any TPU one has seen and this is the progression of SMs device builds. He is an audio engineer, no?
Petare, I agree with you 100%.
No knocking intended at all there.
I see the process as Order out of chaos, chaos being , in this case noise ..let the ring create order by giving it 3 sources of chaos . The experimental starting point .
The kind of noise that most all ss creates all the time is not the kind of noise a triode creates .
Just trying to point out the relevance of the sparce info in context .
Deliberately create noise with dirty ss. then let the bottles clean it up with the assistance of the rings interactions.
The noise would be the "stumble upon" means to the reaction ..the tickler ..which im pretty sure Petare had , is the power , AND the sync source for the process to continue .
So, I see see the noise as a random wide band frequency sweep 3 sources. Only then look for reactions ..next step would be interaction isint that one of the the first things Steven said ?
Something specific to experiment with at the very least and does allow "multiple frequencies to combine with the circumference of the collector"
Petare's experiments should have us heading this way or something similar to it .
Tube noise ...or lack thereof?
http://www.john-a-harper.com/tubes201/#Noise
Quote from: ION on 2010.06.20, 01:48:23
Hi Lindsay
I for one will keep collecting and building with tubes. Recently bought a batch of several hundred at an auction for $5. Included 5U4's and some 6BQ7's, lots of other power tubes. My collection is in the thousands.
I'm gonna dig up that 885 gas tube and build the Fairbairn oscillator just for old times sake. I found the Fairbairn patent.....1952. Here it is:
(attachment: "pat2607897.pdf")
The attachment wouldn't run on the borrowed computer I was using. This file would run:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=pD9WAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&dq=patent:2607897&as_drrb_ap=q&as_minm_ap=0&as_miny_ap=&as_maxm_ap=0&as_maxy_ap=&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=1#v=onepage&q&f=false
--Lee
full spectrum noise looks like a dc bias
edit: you can get Vaccum Tubes by Spangenberg here or on a CD via Ebay
http://ken-gilbert.com/techstuff/spang/Spangenberg.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/108768-hybrid-power-supply-diode-bridge-into-diode-tube.html
http://www.freewebs.com/valvewizard/bridge.html
http://www.emissionlabs.com/datasheets/EML5U4G.htm
I almost forgot:
full spectrum noise is synonymous with certain forms of radiation and radiation-like phenomena...
hint hint
Does anybody have verifiable information on what the 'B' means in 5U4GB ?
I know there are differences between the 5U4G and 5U4GB. Not enough to worry about when cross referencing for most applications but, the RCA flavor of the 5U4GB may have some less common heater properties. The other differences have proven enough for me to not waste time on a 5U4G.
The only difference I could see noted in the RCA RC-21 spec book was that the two use different outlines. They only give the specs for the GB version in the book.
.99
The 5U4G is a coke bottle tube - the other just a straight tube
5U4GB is lower internal resistance and higher peak current
Up to 5v and 50ma difference depending who made it
In audio terms the 5U4G is tighter than the 5U4GB - once again depending on who made it
Quote from: darkspeed on 2010.06.27, 17:00:31
The 5U4G is a coke bottle tube - the other just a straight tube
5U4GB is lower internal resistance and higher peak current
Up to 5v and 50ma difference depending who made it
In audio terms the 5U4G is tighter than the 5U4GB - once again depending on who made it
Tighter? As in 'lower head room'? I used to know all those terms but my hearing went South a couple of decades ago.
I guess I'm looking for details not usually supplied. I have mil-spec manuals referring to requirements of thoriated tungsten direct heaters. I've never heard of thoriated tungsten on the heater, just the cathode sheath.
Once upon a time you could tell the heater makeup by the color at rated voltage. Dull to mid-bright red meant thoriated tungsten. Mid-orange to bright orange meant tantalum oxide on tungsten, etc.
I have one RCA with very little use. The heater is a dull red at 5V 3A.
Sorry I was vague.. the audio guys have the opinion that the 5U4G is better at enabling a well built tube amp to reproduce high frequency signal.
How they tell that I have no idea.. its all sugar pills to me..
http://www.nj7p.org/Tube4.php?tube=5U4G
http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/5u4g.pdf
http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/5u4gb.pdf