rectifier into 5U4?

[darkspeed]

When he says full wave silicon circuit - im guessing he is talking about a solid state full wave rectifier that would output noisy DC..

Why is he running DC into the input side of a 5U4? The 5U4 is a full wave rectifier....

What am i missing here...

Anyway, I have taken a high voltage power supply as follows:
500 v-0-500 v 300 mV plate transformer run it through a full wave silicon
circuit then run it through a 5U4 electron tube rectifier.
Now you know that the 5U4 requires 5 volts AC at 3 amps for its heater to
gather the electrons and complete the circuit.
Well, I measured the output from the tube and the result is 500 volts DC
at 250 mV.
The loss is due to the high impedance of the tube and its limited ability to
dissipate more than 250 mA..
The point I wish to make here is that also along with the 500 volt
DC is, yes, you guessed it, the 5 volts three amp AC current!
They are both completely independent of each other except for
some very interesting things I will mention to you some other
time..
First of all, obviously you can have several different output
components in the power output signal.
You can have DC and AC together without any problem.

.

[Lindsay Mannix]

ds.. good question ! I was wondering when the relevance would come into question.
Here is my take

the 5u4 isolates the supply source and prevents feedback reflecting into the preceeding circuits , just like any tube does . I like to think of it as fresh electrons , Steven said "only magic comes out now"

Every coil shoud be driven by fresh electrons . Im sorry it is not a technical explanation.

musos still call this a "soft supply" and like the effect it has on the tonality of the amps when wound up

Lindsay

[darkspeed]

Thanks Lindsay

If he is full wave DC before the 5U4 - then there is no transformer out of phase effect....

All I could think is he is removing one of the variables ( the AC ) to isolate and identify the effect

I have used 5U4's but never with diodes before it.

The 5U4 would however soften ( take out the solid state diode noise ) the DC but you end up using one side of your tube

maybe that is it.. The 5U4 is two diode tubes in one tube... maybe you need some interaction between diodes?

Unless you actually need a broken path for electron transit.. where the solid state is a physical path.

Seems strange

[Lindsay Mannix]

It may be just about how to get a truly clean supply ..then maybe there is more to it .

It sould be mandatory whatever the case for all tpu research.
It's is strange  that not many take the advice , however they see it .
then again a tpu is pretty strange !

[Lindsay Mannix]

morgan jones valve amplifiers 3rd edition page 257  explains the importance well

ss cannot even glimpse at the electon speeds of valves it would seem

I can uplod that book here if its ok   Darren?

[poynt99]

DS,

It's funny you have been reading that section of the notes....I have as well. This time however, it made a lot more sense than in the past. Interesting how time can allow for a fresh perspective.

Anyhow first of all, "full-wave rectified" doesn't necessarily also mean filtered. I believe he is getting at the notion of applying the rectified wave which results in a strong second harmonic component, the fundamental, and a DC component. This is then being "summed" with the filament 5VAC supply.

My take on the goal of this particular description is to understand one process for creating the "catalyst" as SM puts it. Here, a few frequency components interact in some way to produce the occasional kick. This I believe is the gist of the message, and may have been meant more as a thought experiment. SM quite often takes several angles of approach to explain a single concept.

The message here imho is to create many frequency components (possibly from two sources) and have them adjusted such that their interaction causes maximum effect. The more frequencies the better when taking this "shotgun approach". More refined approaches use specific frequency components and coil arrangements to achieve catalyst (i.e. consistent and bountiful kicks).

Lindsay, if you want to upload that page of the book, I think that is alright. At the moment, I don't think we have the space nor is the forum set to accept such a large file as an entire ebook. Perhaps you could email it out to those folks that are interested in it. I would be. Thanks.

.99

[darkspeed]

Thanks .99

You do realize that it is not just two transformers out of phase right...

Low volts high amps >>>><<<< high volts low amps  seems to be a recurring theme ah-la evgray etc...

[Grumpy]

Maybe SM was just trying to say that you need a dc bias.

Anyway, I have taken a high voltage power supply as follows:
500 v-0-500 v 300 mV plate transformer run it through a full wave silicon
circuit then run it through a 5U4 electron tube rectifier.
Now you know that the 5U4 requires 5 volts AC at 3 amps for its heater to
gather the electrons and complete the circuit.
Well, I measured the output from the tube and the result is 500 volts DC
at 250 mV.
The loss is due to the high impedance of the tube and its limited ability to
dissipate more than 250 mA..
The point I wish to make here is that also along with the 500 volt
DC is, yes, you guessed it, the 5 volts three amp AC current!
They are both completely independent of each other except for
some very interesting things I will mention to you some other
time..
First of all, obviously you can have several different output
components in the power output signal.
You can have DC and AC together without any problem.

[darkspeed]

The only effect I have seen iv seen with transformers out of phase is using a high voltage pulse to expand a magnetic field then crash a lower voltage higher current pulse through it and in theory your lower voltage higher amperage pulse will be compressed " pressurized " by the collapsing magnetic field of the high voltage pulse thus giving you high voltage at high amperage..

I think a lot of these devices may work on some flavor of that.

[Grumpy]

The only effect I have seen iv seen with transformers out of phase is using a high voltage pulse to expand a magnetic field then crash a lower voltage higher current pulse through it and in theory your lower voltage higher amperage pulse will be compressed " pressurized " by the collapsing magnetic field of the high voltage pulse thus giving you high voltage at high amperage..

I think a lot of these devices may work on some flavor of that.

Yes, and just like Tesla state about "resonance" is that you have to link a few lines of force and work them up over time and that you can often do better by just using a transformer to step the voltage up.

Doesn't matter how you get the electric pulse - just get it.  The higher the voltage, the faster the rise the stronger the force.

[poynt99]

I don't recall if I ever posted this. The date of the original WORD file is 2006-11-25. I converted it to pdf for this post. It may or may not be of value at this point and for this discussion.

Also, this page is of some interest regarding electron transit time. A few pico-seconds per 10^-5 cm is most likely not the bottle neck in switching speed. I think without question it is the parasitic capacitances and junction storage time effects within SS devices that cripples them compared to valve devices.

.99

[darkspeed]

Thanks .99!

[Lindsay Mannix]

99..Thanks , that brought be back to that thought train and what we now know


Steven was trying to make as much noise as possible. deliberately !

edit .. too much of a rant , sorry

The switching speed of tubes must be essential to synchronise kicks so that they are permitted to build on themselves

[IceStorm]

What i find really surprising and should bring some red flag is when the supposed SM talk about Tube and say its faster that the silicon equivalent. ANYBODY who worked with Tubes know that is totally false  and proof of that is really easy , just make a simple power supply with a 5U4 as full wave rectifier and make the same with a silicon full bridge rectifier. the switching time is EXTREMELY faster with ANY silicon one.

All video that show the TPU are really the best i ever seen who show a device clearly and without ANY evidence of a fraud but the "Supposed" communication with SM should rise some red flag when the information provided are not accurate, because if that is not accurate, , do the remaining is inaccurate too ?

Best Regards,
IceStorm

[Lindsay Mannix]

A solid state xray machine has never been invented  ..have a red flag!

[darkspeed]

He was not talking about electron transit in a 5U4

He was talking about the input phase vs output phase delay in a triode

and

the input phase vs output phase delay in a transistor

That is why a SSTC looks so different from a VTTC

When your input triggers an output - a transistor because of feedback and number of components will be much slower than a tube


Say you had a trigger coil that receives a pulse and it triggers the triode to pulse  - the output pulse will almost be in phase with the input pulse because you are just moving electrons through a few very fast devices.

If you did this with a 1995 transistor ( at low voltage ) your output pulse would be lagging way behind your input pulse..

[IceStorm]

A solid state xray machine has never been invented  ..have a red flag!

LOL The voltage make problem on that type of device for transsitor, so SM used 125Kv+ on the tpu

Keep on topic, its just ridiculous, i raised a real concern and you reply with stupidity without even considering what i wrote. Its not a unknown fact that tube is slower than Silicon equivalent so why did you post some non sense like that ?

[Lindsay Mannix]

xrays  are here at 21kv

my geiger counter does not lie

I dont even use xray tubes!

[IceStorm]

LOL now at "the correct voltage for a x-ray machine" ,

http://www.allproducts.com/manufacture97/pioway/product3.html     125Kv max value

Waste of time talking to you , im out, keep your lie about SM for others

[BEP]

When he says full wave silicon circuit - im guessing he is talking about a solid state full wave rectifier that would output noisy DC..

Why is he running DC into the input side of a 5U4? The 5U4 is a full wave rectifier....

What am i missing here...

A few basic facts maybe unknown to most:

1. The 'silicon' rectifier 'in-socket' replacements for the tube rectifiers were well known for the noise they generated.
2. 500-0-500 secondary to the silicon was fine but that would be outside the normal operating range for all but a few 5U4GBs.
3. The 5U4GB was the 'high vacuum' variety. There should be less chance of making the tube go bad due to misuse. Addition differences make it oranges & apples to the 5U4.
4. Thermionic emission is normally the result of heating the cathode from the heater filament. Here, the heater filament was also the cathode. An excessive reverse bias to the 5U4GB (with no heater power) would cause thermionic emission to be secondary instead of primary.
5. If you reverse almost everything familiar in a full-wave rectifier and backward-feed another full-wave rectifier you get the following:
      a) center tap 500-0-500 secondary
      b) each '500' wire connected to the cathode of a 'silicon' rectifier (why mention it was silicon? Even then, it was assumed to be so and not mentioned)
      c) the anode of each silicon rectifier connects to an anode of the 5U4GB
      d) in one direction - the silicon is overdriving the tube - as the silicon replacements always did - and with a noisy wave. As a rule of thumb; a power supply using silicon rectifiers will develop an HT voltage -under load- that is roughly 1.2 times the RMS voltage delivered by the transformer. No-Load can be much higher.
      e) in the other direction the tube is doing the rectifying also placing the silicon in a reverse bias (noise generator anyone?)

That would be valid thoughts while thinking noise generation is the key.

I think this lesson was more than an analogy. I think it is an actual way to see the most basic operating principles of a TPU.

The above is not a bad thing to test but one thing isn't considered. Why are tubes an easier starting point?

My opinion:

Tubes are the easiest way to convert energy in the transverse form to compression waves then back again. How many solid state devices can do that?

Why harp on compression waves again? Because, there is no gain from two waves meeting unless they are both compression waves. Then, is the only time superposition provides real gain. (yes, I know. 'Compression waves' is an oxymoron in the eyes of the classicist. Never the less, they exist in waveguides, the Earth's waveguide and plasma chambers.).

The biggest mistake being repeated is folks try to jump right to SS thinking the conversion state was upgraded by doing it in the SS. Bad mistake. The upgrade was to move the conversion from the tubes to the coils. The controls are just controls.

My opinion - for a late Sunday evening.

Cheers Folks. Have a good week!  

[Lindsay Mannix]

xrays gama rays .. start well below what is needed for commercial application but does it not address your switching speed issue that you are sure of ?

please kv test some tubes and out a getter on th outside ..

This is a place to learn the truth ....that is we dont know the real truth . My question is do we really want to know?
Can a greater mind impart knowledge to one not ready to recieve it?
We are all on the edge of something here so it best to be solution based.
It not time to blame our tools yet. 

[Grumpy]

You guys are arguing about things that don't matter.


By the way, when you prevent current from flowing the resultant force is longitudinal.  Hell, Lord Kelvin knew this over 100 years ago.

[darkspeed]

Good one WaveWatcher!

[BEP]

You guys are arguing about things that don't matter.


By the way, when you prevent current from flowing the resultant force is longitudinal.  Hell, Lord Kelvin knew this over 100 years ago.

Yes but what solid-state device can do that with the resulting force still doing work? (Question sounds idiotic - now that I think about it. Oh Well, maybe the idea will make it across. I know what force will continue on when the switch has opened with almost zero contact open time.)

Also, now that I think back.... The term 'Hash', in the 60's, 70's and later was almost always referring to switching transients of silicon replacements for tube rectifiers. You had to put snubbing caps across them and add a current limiting resistor to clean up the mess.

I'm surprised I remember that bit because of my use of the term 'Hash' in the 60's, 70's a a bit later. 

[otto]

Hello all,

SM gave us a good description how he made his tube rectifier. Maybe its clever to make a drawing and post it? Just an idea.
Maybe then its clever to figure out how to use batteries or a battery as power supply for a TPU? And then to make a drawing about such a configuration? And post it, of course? This is my next idea.

And my next idea is to compare this 2 "systems" - ways to pulse a TPU.

Or, the easiest way, ignore me, ha,ha.

Ohhhh, I have no time for drawings, sorry.

Otto

PS: in 1 video we could see something like a 9V battery?