60 miles per charge on a electric lithium power trike project

[Tommey Reed]

Hi All,

After study EV for many years, I found a cheap way to recycle lithium batteries for laptop batteries.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TxXs5N93jg

I also found out some of the problems with dead lithium batteries, is due to too much of a load either from charging out load on the battery.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEX9eYrQWSg

This is why I'm building a electric bicycle trike.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fECKPvEUeJQ

Testing the e bike kit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZwVbrOAxd8

Tom.

[Chet K]

Tom

Very cool project..
Thx
Chet

[Peterae]

Hi Tommey
I have built a Lithium mountain bike before and had a range of about 10 miles that could get me to work over some of the biggest downland hills in the South East England.

Your solution for letting the pressure from the cell is very interesting and this actually shows how bad all manufacturers charge their batteries.

For safety a Lithium battery should never be allowed to over charge, or under charge or even have an excessive discharge current, any of these are potentially creating a bomb.

It's hard to believe, but all manufacturers i know charge their batteries in series and monitor the total voltage to get an average over charge voltage indication, the more complex systems do monitor the voltage across each cell but then only switch in a low wattage resistor to help slow the charge to that particular cell.
This is not a good design yet every Battery management system i have seen works this way.

Some don't even monitor the voltage across each cell, this leads to an in balance over a period of time where 1 cell could end up at 20% charge and the others varying up to full charge, the result during discharge is that once the 20% charged cell reaches it's 0% charge level then the whole battery shuts down, giving the wrong conclusion that the whole battery is faulty, and in actuality each cell just needs re balancing, but because there is no balancer built in then you need to buy a new battery.

There are some things that you need to monitor to be safe with these batteries.
Each cell must not go over it's maximun working voltage.
Each cell must not get over discharged by going under it's minimun cell voltage.
Cell temperature needs monitoring during charge and discharge to stop explosive pressures, hence the pressure cap design, these batteries are not batteries they are sticks of dynamite in an over pressure situation, sealed in a metal can.

There's only one way to safely charge a Lithium battery cell and that's to charge each cell singularly, monitoring temperature, and cell voltage.
To my knowledge there is no manufacturer that correctly implements this correct charge regime.
and on this basis there is one thing you would never do and that is to start using Lithium batteries in Aeroplanes LOL

There is one safe Lithium battery technology that is not dangerous and that is LIFEPO4 or Lithium / Ferric Phosphate Chemistry, these do not suffer the thermal runaway problems all the other chemistry's see.

If you love your life and your house there is only 1 safe way to charge your laptop/ mobile phone or anything that uses these Lithium cells and that is to charge in your shed or at least in a fireproof battery charge bag, which is designed for the worst case scenario.

The only thing that has saved many explosions is the pressure cap design, but the battery should never have got to an over charged state in the first place through bad Battery management design.

If a cell gets over charged then as you found the top shorts, if the cell gets over discharged then the crystalline structure of the cell gets damaged, you may be lucky if the under voltage is minimal, but generally when the under voltage state is reached then leakage in the cell tends to trickle discharge the cell over a short period of time, good cells have a very slow self discharge rate, cells that have been under voltage self discharge at varying rates, a really bad one will get hot due to the heating leakage current within the cell and can again become a ticking time bomb due to increase pressure due to excessive internal stress and heat.

[Tommey Reed]

Hi Peterae,

I agree these chargers seem to be more worry about fast charge then a safe one.

I read the lithium cell should be between 2.75v-4.00v, yet people are pushing them to the max and this is what is the problem.

I have already test 4 lead acid batteries12v@10ah, and would rather use nickel metal hydride batteries that cost more when it come to voltage.
They seem the best to this day, the Toyota Rav4 EV are still running around with 25+ year old (NiMh) batteries.

I got ten miles on a heavy 26" bike at around 30mph, with lead acid 30lb batteries and took 2.5 hours to recharge them at 2.2ah, about half the discharge was used.

This is a basic trike design I'm working on, I believe 60 miles range would need 48v@60ah battery pack and will have enough cells to build a 600 laptop cells or 5kw lithium battery pack.

I also agree by charging each battery you have better control, this charger/balancer does not seem to really do that. If that was the case then why would they short out, I believe it is also the load of each battery that also cause the pressure switch to open in the cell due to heated load.

http://www.pluginamerica.org/drivers-seat/revenge-nimh-batteries

Tom

[muDped]

I also agree by charging each battery you have better control, this charger/balancer does not seem to really do that. If that was the case then why would they short out...

That is one of the primary problems with series connected
cells.  Unless they are very carefully matched overcharging
of some cells within the string will inevitably occur.  It is the
overcharging which produces the gas which raises the pressure
in the cell to eventually (at about 200 psi) open the switch.
The integrated Current Interrupt Device (CID) is a normally
closed switch which is forced open by the high pressure to
protect the cell, and its surroundings, from potentially
explosive destruction.

[Tommey Reed]

Hi MuDped,

I am thinking of building a special microcontroller charger that reads each cell in a parallel pack, this way the controller would pick out a single cell when it goes bad.

When cells are in parallel there is no way to know if any cell is bad due to over loaded or even shorted.

The microcontroller scan the 16 cells and charge all cells in a counting flow at a high rate, so when a bad cell pops up the controller would give a location in the pack to replace.

This way each parallel pack then can be hook in a series to get higher voltage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-zESc6W4lg

Tom.

[Tommey Reed]

Hi all,

I like data, but real data when test EV bicycle on the road is the best.

This is a 10 mile ride at full load, using 48v@10ah lead acid battery pack.

Took 3.2hr for 48v@2.2a to fully recharge when I was done.

Total battery storage                48v@10a =480      watts
Total charge needed     48v@2.2a x 3.2hr =337.92 watts

Test Run top speed at 27mph.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzV05QNZ17w

So I would need 10 times the storage to get 60+mile per charge, or 5kw lithium battery.

Tom

[Chet K]

Tom
If you interested I have a 1947 Harley trike frame I will donate to your Build,also a golf cart motor and rear end
which fits the chassis...or I have a few Austin Healey / Mg Midget Rears that fit too..?

I planned on using it with the Diesel Genset which I'm building as per Johan's Specs,however I have another one [Harley trike]which I am
going to be getting as part of a barter deal with my neighbor[I work He deals   ]

can probably deliver it in the next few weeks if your interested.

Thx
Chet

[Tommey Reed]

Hi Chet,

Sound great, but I'm really looking for bicycle parts. This will keep the weight down and make it more efficient.

I will have a 5kw lithium battery bank, this will give me 60+ mile rang at 25mph.

I am looking for 2 front 20" bicycle wheels, seems to be expensive even on Ebay with rim/tubs and tire. average for two of them $70.00 with shipping.

these are my laptop batteries I got in today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9hspTVdiVQ

Tom

[Peterae]

You really need to use a BLDC motor for efficiency, i had Regen, so could reclaim up to 33% of the energy when going down hill.

I bought all my stuff from here, there is an amazingly cheap controller that does everything at the bottom of the Motor controllers page really cheap and very versatile  
http://www.goldenmotor.com/

Special Features:
Cruise Speed Control -- Sensor/Sensorless Dual-Mode Control
Programmable via PC to setup motor control parameters
Motor hall sensor failure redundency (Automatically switch to sensorless control mode)
Anti-theft alarm and wheel-locking by detection of vibration
True regenerative braking (only effective when you squeeze the hand brake)
Other failures redundency (Work with failed throttle and power breaker)
Work with multiple voltages: 24V, 36V and 48V with the same controller
Report failure components by beeps
Motor phase self detection and calibration
Support Forward and Reverse Control
Excessive Current Protection
Low Voltage Protection
High Reliability

48V/100A All for  $95

[Chet K]

Tom
Can you post a pic of the bike rim /tire
or a link ?
a friend has some Mountain bikes sitting out for parts [a shame I just scrapped a bunch  ]


Chet

[Tommey Reed]

Hi Chet,

This is the cheapest I found at Northern Industrial Tools Tires on Spoked Ball Bearing Wheel—20in. Pneumatic  Item# 145120

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/AjaxOrderItemDisplayView?updatePrices=1&calculationUsageId=-1&catalogId=11652&errorViewName=AjaxOrderItemDisplayView&langId=-1&orderId=65721550&storeId=6970&ddkey=http:OrderCalculate

But there is no Northern Tools over in this area, I might be able to buy them is they do shipping.

I have the money, buy don't know how much they will charge for shipping,

I'm also looking to buy a Tig welder, I have mig and plasma cutter.
Tig is better welder for thin metals.

Thank you for the offer of parts, but this is a bicycle trike, that's the only way it won't have to be license to drive.

This is another reason I'm building my trike:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3INj_7WVDQ8
$4000.00 starting price is way too much for a low tech trike.

I can do better for less.
Tom

[Chet K]

Tom
A neighbor has a small tig which he wants around a hundred bucks for brand new with a small bottle ?
Also I will see about the 20 inch rims [your Northern Link did not go thru for me]

Regarding Licencing and registering these small "Green machines",  I think we could get some clearance for special exemptions on Urban  or Rural  applications .the Green machine I am working on will be at least a 100 MPG  water emulsified diesel fuel , electric hybrid .

we need these types of vehicles and the governments will work with us on this.

Chet

[Tommey Reed]

Hi Chet,

This is the basic finished design I'm looking for.

What do you all think?

Call me Chet, question on the tig welder.
Tom

[Chet K]

Tom, 5 AM here [I'll ring later]

One comment on the design....

"altitude"...

 I love building low and close to the ground , However looking up at the bottom of trucks ,cars and even the Belly's of squirrels leaves a very uncomfortable feeling once out on the road.

I noticed in your Vid that those fellows delt with that issue directly and placed the operator within eye level of pedestrian and most surrounding traffic .

Of course the drag will be much bigger [proportionate to speed],  but more user friendly,   and safer !!

I do Love your design tho

Later.....

Chet

[Tommey Reed]

Hi Chet,

I totally agree, my son wanted is lower and I said the same thing.

I have change the basic design, and will make a wooden version to check if it's high enough first.

Tom

[Grumage]

Dear Tom and Chet.

Some years ago we got involved with a charity event, raising funds for the Wales Air Ambulance. The owner of Welshpool Airport came up with the Red Dragon Race, this competition was effectively pedal powered wind bikes !!  His aim was to eventually see human powered flight !!

Sadly Bob crashed into the side of mountain, both he and his co pilot died and I am afraid, so did his race.

The attached picture is our final entry, the Black Knight, that beat the opposition soundly, being capable of speeds up to 20 mph !!  Stamina permitting !!    I may add that after taking second prize at our first race we went on to win every race for the next 5 years running !!

You will notice that my design carries the person within the centreline so as to achieve a near untippable device. I am a great believer in two front wheels and a single rear wheel based upon the famous Morgan 3 wheelers. My earliest memories are being seated in the rear area of my dear Fathers Morgan.

We also built a test bed 3 wheeler using a Honda 50 cc combined engine and transmission, that too was great fun, doughnuts all around the garden but never a tip !!

Keep up the great work.

Cheers Grum. 

[Chet K]

Graham

OOHHHH..... I like that !!

"It slices.. it Dices  ...it'll snip the wings off a Jersey Mosquito.....[an old Carney Hawking sales pitch  ]



Great stuff!!

Chet

[Tommey Reed]

Hi All,

I thought this would be interesting to design a trike on cad, and animate it as a 3d diving simulation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1WJSfCsseo

Tom