Re: Energetics of Ferromagnetism by Leon Dragone

[Kator01]

Hello all,

While I was reading a paper from the Greek scientist Papimi which is only accessible in the web-archive
I found a description of an engery comparison in an arcing device here:
http://web.archive.org/web/20110820094309/http://www.papimi.gr/university.htm

At the end of the page he referred to Dragones work. So in researching the web for Leon Dragones work I found the following very interesting paper :

http://exvacuo.free.fr/div/Sciences/Dossiers/EM/Leon%20Dragone%20-%20Energetics%20of%20Ferromagnetism.pdf

Regards

Mike

[Kator01]

Hello all,

if you reduce the second link to : http://exvacuo.free.fr/

you get a french  intro which I translate here:

"Welcome !

Here you are on a heteroclyte personal multimedia library essentially devoted to science and radio, and left open to friends and curious.

Everything is in bulk but downloadable. You will navigate with the explorer"

Now entering this private website there are some very interesting collections of scientific, technical and Broadcasting files.

This specific file is found entering "science"-> "Dossiers" -> "EM"

http://exvacuo.free.fr/div/Sciences/Dossiers/EM/

I did some additional reseach and did not find much about this scientist exept at the websites of padrak, the keely.net and the energeticforum.
Italek had also made an analysis which I attach here together with Screenshots which might give some insight into the technique Dragone used
and the problems one might face.
But I think that with the present time switched-mode power-supply techniques an experiment could be performed, i.e. dumping Capacitor stored energy at 320 V and 30 to 60 A into a coil should not be a problem.

Personally I do not have the means to do such an experiment but I thought it might be of interest.
To whom it might concern: Be careful not to engage into a quick and dirty test-setup as I can see from what I have read that ithe principle  must be well understood and a test well designed.
But who am I to tell you this 

Mike

[Kator01]

Hello all,

when I found Leon Dragones work I did not intend to open a new thread however as I notice itsu tries to replicate the transformer-experiment which does not has anything in common to Dragones principle.
I do not think that with standard-transformer-process a cooling effect will be observable simply because of the cyclic magnetisation losses in the core in combination with the ohmic losses in the copper-winding of the coils in AC - Mode.

@chet : can you please open a new topic "Energetics of Ferromagnetism by Leon Dragone" and move my posts there ?

I will come back later with some considerations on some key points I am pondering on during the last days. It needs some time so please bear with me

Mike

[Peterae]

Hello Kator01
I have moved your posts here to a separate thread.

Peter

[Kator01]

Thank you Peter

ike

[Smudge]

Don't know whether this is the best place to post this.  I have been following this thread and its spin-off while being away from home and computer and unable to post.  But I am back at home now and can log on, so here goes.

I can write a critique of Dragone's paper showing that he has got things wrong with his explanation for gaining energy, but I am not sure that would solve anything.  What I can't dispute is the fact that he got something anomalous in his experiments.  So is there another explanation for that anomaly?  I think there is.  Some time ago I wrote a paper entitled "Non-Coherent Access to Hidden Precession Energy in Ferro-magnetic Materials".  It went through several iterations and the final one is attached here.  In a nutshell it is known that electron dipoles, be they spin or orbits, continually precess about their local B field where that precession obeys quantum rules.  My proposal was to provide a very rapid change of field in a time frame faster than the precession time which hopefully would force the precession outside the quantum rules yielding an anomalous increase in magnetization that then decayed away over a number of precession cycles.  Unfortunately, with free electron precession of around 28GHz per Tesla the field would have to change in a time of picoseconds (not the nanoseconds mentioned in the paper).  That is outside the capabilities of your average OU experimenter, so little attention has been paid to that paper.

What I didn't see at the time, and what the Dragone work has revealed to me, is that you can apply a reverse field to a magnet that will lower the precession frequency, and with modern magnet materials the magnetization doesn't necessarily flip, the dipoles are still aligned.  So my take on the Dragone work is that the reverse field almost cancels the magnet's field but at the same time the hidden (non-coherent) precessions lower their frequency to a level where my idea might work.  Then the fast increase in field when the coil current is switched off produces an anomalous increase in magnetization just as I state in my paper.  The only difference is that in my paper I considered a coil that gave an an increase to the magnet's field, and that would require impossibly fast switching.

What do you think?

Smudge

[Kator01]

Hello Smudge,

thank you. That makes a lot of sense to me.
Also according to what I was reading from the older comments Dragone at that time did not have the technique to switch fast high currents, so he was forced to use very big coils driving them with a sparkgap.

Now today we have H-bridges available like this one here from Analog Devices ( 60 to 70 $)

http://www.analog.com/en/design-center/reference-designs/hardware-reference-design/circuits-from-the-lab/cn0196.html#rd-overview

I personally know the engineer who developed this board. In this standard-configuration with a max Voltage of 20 V for the MOSFEFTs  ( Controller-supply is 12 V fix and MOSFET-Supply seperated  to a max of 20 V ) one can switch currents in 10 ns up to 85 A !
So there is a good chance to set up an experiment based on the necessary calculations

Mike

[Smudge]

And it would make sense to use another magnet, perhaps a larger one, to null out the field from the magnet under test.  That eliminates the need for using a large coil to get the many ampere-turns needed.  Then simply drive a smaller coil that is wound onto the test magnet.  There is certainly scope for many experiments here.

Smudge

[Chet K]

perhaps an experiment can be modeled here [step by step] and we'll see about mustering the resources and talent /Lab [a members Lab]
for a build in this thread and a few other places too..
Chet

[Smudge]

Here is an image of the top part of the classical BH loop for a modern magnet where the magnetization remains constant through the second quadrant.  Thus it should be possible to bias the magnet near its negative coercive point where B is close to zero but the dipoles have not yet flipped, so the dipoles are still aligned along their original direction.  And they will be persistently precessing at a relatively low Larmor rate (but not cohered so the magnetization vector will not precess).  Now a fast pulse applied to a coil around the magnet might induce anomalous magnetization that then decays back to the original value.  Then when the coil is switched off you end up with the CW loop shown in red.  And a CW loop represents an energy source.

Smudge

[Smudge]

Been looking at bonded NdFeB magnets and some of them have the demagnetization knee in the third quadrant.  Thus it should be possible to bias one to near zero flux but the magnetization is still there, the dipoles are aligned and persistently precessing about that alignment at some reasonably low Larmor frequency.  In the attached images I show a possible experimental set up where two NdFeB disc magnets are mounted so they act like a pair of Helmholtz coils, with the bonded magnet placed at the center.  I have done FEMM simulations showing (a) the field from the two disc magnets that is reasonably uniform at the center, (b) the field from just the bonded magnet placed at that central point and finally (c) the combined fields showing the field null inside the bonded magnet.  This could be worth playing with to see if anything shows up when the bonded magnet is given a rapid change of flux from the coil that could produce anomalous magnetization for a short period.

Smudge

[Kator01]

Helo Smudge,

good idea for a experimental setup

While pondering on the last simulation ( field cancelled ) I was thinking about the B-Field jump and where it is heading.
If the jump occurs it is facing two air-gaps which are high magnetic resistance for the B-Field.

My gut-feeling tells me i would be wise to place two ferrite-disks of a given thinkness into the air-gaps so the the field-jump can use this as a carrier
for a coil to be placed around the middle magnet ?

I would exclude the hard-magnetic material of the pm to perform well for a current-manifestation due to the field-jump.

What do you think ?

Mike

[Smudge]

Helo Smudge,

good idea for a experimental setup

While pondering on the last simulation ( field cancelled ) I was thinking about the B-Field jump and where it is heading.

By field jump I assume you mean the sudden increase in field when the coil is energized.

If the jump occurs it is facing two air-gaps which are high magnetic resistance for the B-Field.

My gut-feeling tells me i would be wise to place two ferrite-disks of a given thinkness into the air-gaps so the the field-jump can use this as a carrier
for a coil to be placed around the middle magnet ?

Since you still have an effective air path beyond the ferrite discs they will not have much effect on the reluctance of that air path.  They would certainly affect the coupling between the outer magnets and the inner magnet.

I would exclude the hard-magnetic material of the pm to perform well for a current-manifestation due to the field-jump.

Not sure what you mean here.

One thing to note is that having NdFeB magnets in close proximity to each other will create enormous forces, so it requires some ingenious mechanical non-magnetic fixing arrangements.  And it would be wise to allow for some adjustment of the magnet's separation so as to be able to tune for maximum effect (assuming of course that there is an effect).  Another thing to be aware of is the ease with which the stronger magnets could cause the weaker magnet to flip its magnetization, something you don't want.  If this does happen the sudden change in stresses within the stronger magnets can cause them to shatter.  I have had this happen when I used a NdFeB magnet to flip the magnetization of a smaller ferrite magnet, the NdFeB magnet split into two parts.

Smudge

[Cortazar]

Hi Smudge
Is the magnet in the center also NdFeB ?
What should be its strengh ?
Rgds.
Cortazar

[Smudge]

Hi Smudge
Is the magnet in the center also NdFeB ?
What should be its strengh ?
Rgds.
Cortazar

That magnet is bonded NdFeB so it is lower strength than the two outer magnets.  The bonding also redcuces eddy current effects.  I used the NdFeB characteristics supplied with FEMM for the simulations, 52MGOe for the outer ones and 10MGOe for the bonded one.
Smudge

[forest]

Looks like Ferranti generator to me