Growth

Author Topic: Growth (Read 8301 times)

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Allcanadian

Growth « on: 2013-04-17, 01:02:46 »

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I was watching the news today and one headline was "U.S. housing starts rose in March to their highest level since June of 2008" and I thought this sounds like good news. Then I thought about it a little more, housing starts up, GDP up but aren't these numbers simply a measure of something continually rising?. Now if they are always building more houses and it is simply a matter of how many then obviously they intend to "house" over the whole damn planet. If the GPD is always rising then obviously they are raping the planet of resources on an ever increasing scale to build more useless shit for people to buy.

It would seem to me that growth in this context is more like an indication of ignorance because obviously we cannot keep building more and more houses until there is no more room left because that would be insane. At which point we come to something called intelligence or the lack of it and linking forethought to intelligence. Forethought is understanding the consequences of our actions as it relates to the future and is an indication of intelligence. Thinking we can just keep building more and more houses without consequence shows neither forethought or intelligence because we know it is unsustainable. As well another concept comes into play, at what point did insanity become the norm?. Who decided that continuous growth was normal when we know the result can only be disasterous in our future.

Which leads to the word of the day, FUBAR, most business people and economists are FUBAR because they worship a system none obviously understand which is designed solely to destroy the planet...FUBAR.

AC

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Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman

giantkiller

Re: Growth « Reply #1 on: 2013-04-17, 01:24:03 »

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Frequency equals matter...

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Allcanadian

Re: Growth « Reply #2 on: 2013-04-17, 02:10:16 »

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@GK
Nice post and sometimes it would seem were damned if we do and damned if we don't. I know many seem to worship the very thought of OU but I have always approached it with a sense of caution. Now let's say we have unlimited cheap energy, for most I think this would mean a cheaper way to strip mine the planet for cheaper resources so they can buy more shit they don't need. I don't think we can win this one because fundamentally the whole damn thing is flawed and there is no purpose anymore than a virus has a purpose.

AC

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Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman

TinMan	Re: Growth « Reply #3 on: 2013-04-17, 05:47:51 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 5677	@Giantkiller Sounds like a great start to the movie Terminator. The day will come when the song- in the year 2525- becomes a reality! If we don't tread carefully. --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

giantkiller	Re: Growth « Reply #4 on: 2013-04-17, 05:49:11 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 1730 Frequency equals matter...	I have never had any limits in conquering what I set my mind to. I have acquaintances that have access to 200 million dollars with no accountability for the Keely technology. They will turn this planet into sand. What do think my options are? --------------------------- http://purco.qc.ca/ftp/

Chet K	Re: Growth « Reply #5 on: 2013-04-17, 10:02:49 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4719	AC Do you have a house/Home?

Allcanadian

Re: Growth « Reply #6 on: 2013-04-17, 14:31:12 »

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@GK

Quote

They will turn this planet into sand. What do think my options are?

That's kind of funny,90% of the science guys think they know everything but never succeed at anything and the other 10% who do succeed usually screw up the planet or society in some way. Let's hope they are in the 90% bracket.
If I were you I would run away, it ain't going to help but it's good exercise and will take your mind off the coming armageddon, a good pair of sandals are essential.

@Ramset

Quote

Do you have a house/Home?

No I live in a van down by the river, have hair down to my ass and have a fondness for barbequed Squirrel, snorting lighter fluid and wearing women's underwear... life is good, why do you ask?.

AC

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Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman

TinMan

Re: Growth « Reply #7 on: 2013-04-17, 14:41:10 »

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Quote from: allcanadian on 2013-04-17, 14:31:12

@Ramset
No I live in a van down by the river, have hair down to my ass and have a fondness for barbequed Squirrel, snorting lighter fluid and wearing women's underwear... life is good, why do you ask?.

AC

What could be better than a cross dressing redneck hippy living of that fat of the land,carrying his own fuel supply in his lung's to toast his squirrel.

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Chet K

Re: Growth « Reply #8 on: 2013-04-17, 17:34:50 »

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AC
You seemed upset with Houses,I never met a man scared of Houses.
Housing and Planet raping go hand in hand with "useless Sh#t".......................?

Know I understand ,Thanks for Clarifying that,I like to meet a man who makes a real stand on who he is and how he feels.
An up front kind of fellow willing to make sacrifices .....to stand for what he believes in.

So whatcha do when the water gets hard?

Thx
Chet

Allcanadian

Re: Growth « Reply #9 on: 2013-04-17, 18:37:10 »

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@ramset

Quote

You seemed upset with Houses,I never met a man scared of Houses.
Housing and Planet raping go hand in hand with "useless Sh#t".......................?

I was just joking, I have a house,double garage/shop and barn on 22 acres and the older house was moved from another location onto a new basement. As an old fart I came to the conclusion quality was more important than quantity and less can be more. I drilled my own well, setup up my own water treatment system, have started testing my own wind power generators as well as a co-gen system (heat and power). I was also very lucky to have almost unlimited water resources 8 months of the year and in the next few months I want to setup a 1Kw micro-hydro system. It's almost impossible to get around the fact that micro-hydro is a sustainable resource and can supply energy 24/7 which is huge compared to wind and solar. I picked out this acreage specifically because it has huge potential as far as sustainability and renewable resources are concerned.

I understand this may not seem like much in monetary terms however I really enjoy doing things for myself and trying to do things in a sustainable way, I don't want to be part of the problem but hopefully part of a solution. To leave things better than I found them.

Maybe we can be part of a solution, I started looking at generators and found a very real need for a cheap variable speed off the shelf generator. Now the first thing that comes to mind is a permanent magnet generator however they are expensive and have the problem of low output at low speed. The best generator will produce full power over a very wide range of speeds including low RPM so no mechanical gears or belts are needed. If a person can make a standard 1 hp 4 pole AC induction motor act like a generator and produce near full power output at low RPM then small scale renewable energy takes one very big step forward. In this case a generator is no further than the nearest used appliance such as a washer, dryer, furnace etc... and the cost and maintenance drop to very low levels. If anyone has any thoughts on this I would be happy to hear them although I do have my own system in mind, open source of course.

Take a look at hydrokinetic energy, I think there is a huge amount of potential there if a very cheap and reliable generator was available.

Regards
AC

---------------------------

Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman

ion

Re: Growth « Reply #10 on: 2013-04-17, 19:19:53 »

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AC

Quote

If a person can make a standard 1 hp 4 pole AC induction motor act like a generator and produce near full power output at low RPM then small scale renewable energy takes one very big step forward. In this case a generator is no further than the nearest used appliance such as a washer, dryer, furnace etc... and the cost and maintenance drop to very low levels.

AC induction motors can be self excited and act as generators with the addition of an external capacitor. I have done this with single phase and 3 phase motors. The 7 to 10 kW unit from Harbor Freight works in this manner but takes some speed to do it. Maybe tuning the capacitor value will yield output at low RPM's. There are other ways, and a lot of info on line.

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Allcanadian

Re: Growth « Reply #11 on: 2013-04-17, 23:55:31 »

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@Ion

Quote

AC induction motors can be self excited and act as generators with the addition of an external capacitor. I have done this with single phase and 3 phase motors. The 7 to 10 kW unit from Harbor Freight works in this manner but takes some speed to do it. Maybe tuning the capacitor value will yield output at low RPM's. There are other ways, and a lot of info on line.

Yes, I have run many AC induction motors as generators in island mode using an external capacitor for excitation current, that is reactive current. The problem is that if we run the generator and load it at low RPM it falls flat on it's face until the load is removed. The load has siphoned off all the reactive current and we can plot reactive current vs load current and predict when this will happen under varied loads at any given RPM.
I can rig any AC motor to run as a generator in an hour or so and it does not require a great deal of thought or effort however my question is how could we run it at 1/2 the rated RPM and still generate full power?.

AC

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Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman

evolvingape

Re: Growth « Reply #12 on: 2013-04-18, 00:32:25 »

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Quote from: allcanadian on 2013-04-17, 23:55:31

however my question is how could we run it at 1/2 the rated RPM and still generate full power?.
AC

High Torque driver required with more poles on the driven to run slower at high efficiency, using flywheel principles with high inertia as a stall hunting buffer.

http://www05.abb.com/global/scot/scot234.nsf/veritydisplay/73538d3f2dd243edc125788d003def44/$file/technical_note_comparison_of_4pole_and_2pole_designs_for_large_motors_and_generators_en_052011.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KERS

The alternative to the above being to gear your driver to driven with associated losses. A standard off the shelf PMA has a performance curve that tells you Voltage and Amperage related to RPM. DC is my choice as a bridge rectifier is simple and inverters with controlled output frequency easily available, AC output direct from the alternator requires a frequency speed RPM controller or governer.

http://www.windbluepower.com/Wind_Blue_Motor_Hydro_Permanent_Magnet_Alternator_p/dc-500.htm

Study the graph of Model DC500 PMA Output:

"On our test stand with a 12 Volt battery connected the PMA produced 120 Amps at 2000 RPM. "

Relative low speed for an alternator, 12V compatibility, 120A output to load. Change the speed of rotation to change the output to load, but most importantly look at the potential difference of the components of power, V and A relative to RPM.

« Last Edit: 2013-04-18, 23:27:25 by evolvingape »

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Allcanadian

Re: Growth « Reply #13 on: 2013-04-20, 10:44:19 »

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@evolvingape

Quote

Study the graph of Model DC500 PMA Output:
"On our test stand with a 12 Volt battery connected the PMA produced 120 Amps at 2000 RPM. "
Relative low speed for an alternator, 12V compatibility, 120A output to load. Change the speed of rotation to change the output to load, but most importantly look at the potential difference of the components of power, V and A relative to RPM.

I had looked at these however the 120A is most likely a max bench rating and if it was run at this spec for any length of time the old blue smoke would be sure to follow. As well they cost $300 plus shipping where I was thinking less than $150 at 500 RPM max and 1Kw output for 8 months 24/7. I'm a little demanding,lol, so I imagine I will have to do this myself as I have not seen anything even remotely close to my specs.

AC

---------------------------

Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman

evolvingape

Re: Growth « Reply #14 on: 2013-04-21, 13:35:11 »

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Quote from: allcanadian on 2013-04-20, 10:44:19

@evolvingape
I had looked at these however the 120A is most likely a max bench rating and if it was run at this spec for any length of time the old blue smoke would be sure to follow. As well they cost $300 plus shipping where I was thinking less than $150 at 500 RPM max and 1Kw output for 8 months 24/7. I'm a little demanding,lol, so I imagine I will have to do this myself as I have not seen anything even remotely close to my specs.

AC

Yes the 120A is probably the max bench rating however you can see from the graph that the alternator is designed to reach this Amp rating very quickly and tops out as Voltage increases in a linear relationship with RPM.

I have one of these alternators and my requirements will be similar to yours running a relatively low RPM turbine <2000 RPM. This should give me 20V x 115A = 2300W @ 2000RPM. Of course this will depend on the Torque available to drive the PMA at this speed, but I can increase Torque by adding more nozzles until I know the flow rate I need.

If we adjust the parameters for your desired specification we can achieve this:

14V x 100A = 1400W @ 1500 RPM

You want to run your driver at 500 RPM so using a pulley step up gear ratio of 3:1 you can do this and run the PMA at 1500 RPM giving you enough Voltage pressure to charge a 12V battery and 1400W output without getting anywhere near max rating of the alternator so it should run relatively cool. A 3:1 ratio is a little high for a pulley gear system so to hit your 1kW target drop the ratio to something like 2.5:1 or maybe 2.2:1 etc which is easily done.

Here are your pulleys and taperlock bushes for connection to driveshaft:

http://www.bearingboys.co.uk/V___Wedge_Pulleys-1038-c

http://www.bearingboys.co.uk/Taperlock_Bushes-1134-c

Maybe a little more than you are willing to spend but when you consider the time saved and the flexibility a setup like this will give you, might be worth considering. This is exactly what I am doing and the Supersonic Pulsometer is the device that I have been working on to efficiently convert heat to mass fluid flow, which runs the turbine and drives the PMA, thus giving me a flexible test bed for heat to electrical power conversion technology.

Hope that helps,

Rob

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Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.

Allcanadian

Re: Growth « Reply #15 on: 2013-04-24, 19:54:35 »

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@evolvingape

Quote

I have one of these alternators and my requirements will be similar to yours running a relatively low RPM turbine <2000 RPM. This should give me 20V x 115A = 2300W @ 2000RPM. Of course this will depend on the Torque available to drive the PMA at this speed, but I can increase Torque by adding more nozzles until I know the flow rate I need.

That sounds interesting and I take it that you are running a Pelton setup.

My supply is low head at 1.5m and high volume near 3m/s @ 2 to 3m^3/s and I have designed a modified Kaplan with suction head. I'm hoping to get her wet in a month or so and have started bench testing a modified AC induction motor running as a generator in island mode.

Best case scenario I will be able to drive the generator directly (500 RPM max)and at this point belts and gears would be a last resort. My goal is a small footprint 1Kw low head hydrogenerator with a price point near $500 or $0.50/watt which is wildly optimistic but that is the goal. I believe it can be done however it will require some new technology utilizing different materials but let's face it "normal" is grossly overrated. Normal is the present where we need to be concerned with the future.

AC

---------------------------

Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman

evolvingape

Re: Growth « Reply #16 on: 2013-04-25, 22:25:16 »

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I am not running a Pelton setup, your not on the trusted list, to find out what I am and will be running will take time and patience.

I am building a proof of concept prototype that is small scale but infinitely variable and integrates more technologies into one space than anything you have ever seen or probably can conceive of, a proper test rig that does real work and provides real data for analysis. Once the variables I need to know are known I will be building a full scale prototype that aims to operate at 90% overall system efficiency. I will be using 25Kw/h of high grade heat energy input from multiple fuels and producing 22.5Kw/h of electrical energy output and 22.5Kw/h of space heating heat energy output at the goal of 90% system efficiency. Work that one out if you can! Shouldn't be too hard, I have already told you how to do it.

No belts and gears you say, hmm, my system offers user defined variable control of a test platform that is fully functional and capable of doing work. The addition of a slide or pivot arm offers simple belt tensioning in a manual sense, and further addition of a spring tension gives me an automatic belt tensioner. I can adjust ratios on a whim to achieve any RPM / Voltage / Current within relationship limits I like, without requiring an automatic speed governer controlling AC output frequency. By the use of a DC rectifier I have both storage capability and through an inverter reliable precise AC frequency output, even pure sine wave if I desire.

You either have your finger on the pulse, or your feeling a stiff.

RIM

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Everyman Standing Order 01: In the Face of Tyranny; Everybody Stands, Nobody Runs.
Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security.
Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.

Allcanadian

Re: Growth « Reply #17 on: 2013-04-26, 00:20:22 »

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@evolvingape

Quote

No belts and gears you say, hmm, my system offers user defined variable control of a test platform that is fully functional and capable of doing work. The addition of a slide or pivot arm offers simple belt tensioning in a manual sense, and further addition of a spring tension gives me an automatic belt tensioner. I can adjust ratios on a whim to achieve any RPM / Voltage / Current within relationship limits I like, without requiring an automatic speed governer controlling AC output frequency. By the use of a DC rectifier I have both storage capability and through an inverter reliable precise AC frequency output, even pure sine wave if I desire.

I think were talking apples and oranges here because my project is a very simple very inexpensive sustainable resource micro-hydrogenerator. In which case even a single ball bearing becomes a liability due to cost restrictions and logistics for the consumer. I look at it this way, millions of people with no heat or power or lights or books who routinely drink polluted water and may make a hundred dollars a year really don't give a damn about technology. They want something they can afford that works 24/7 for 10 years without maintenance which means belts and gears are hardly an option. I'm not trying to impress anyone I'm trying to help them.
As well there is no shortage of people making things more complex or costly however people moving in the opposite direction are about as abundant as unicorns.

AC

« Last Edit: 2013-04-26, 00:59:16 by allcanadian »

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Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman

evolvingape

Re: Growth « Reply #18 on: 2013-04-26, 13:45:02 »

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I don't think we are talking apples and oranges, I do think you do not understand what I am doing, and that's OK. Microhydro has been around for ages and it is not the solution or there wouldn't be a problem. Belt's are for the test rig only, if you go straight to direct drive and you have not nailed your variables first time, which is unlikely, then you have no flexibility in testing. Not that belt's are unreliable, the timing cam belt in your car probably has an automatic tensioner and gets changed on average every six years because if it snapped it would wreck your engine, many belt's for less critical operations can run for decades and are easy to change. Keep your eye out for those unicorns

RIM

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Everyman Standing Order 01: In the Face of Tyranny; Everybody Stands, Nobody Runs.
Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security.
Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.

Allcanadian

Re: Growth « Reply #19 on: 2013-04-26, 19:32:26 »

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@evolvingape

Quote

I don't think we are talking apples and oranges, I do think you do not understand what I am doing, and that's OK.

I would agree I don't understand what your doing because you haven't told me what your doing, lol,

In any case I have come to the conclusion that it is better to do something even in a very small way such as a very affordable microhydro system that to be waiting around for a miracle of science. Build the technology, prove it then open source it so everyone on the planet can benefit from it ... I like that concept.

As well I have a vested interest in this because I have an excellent water resource some 100 feet from my house so I figure I will do this for me first then give it to everyone else. I understand some say we can't get emotional or introduce feelings into the equation however I disagree. It is my feelings for others and my will to express my own creativity which motivates me not science.

I guess I'm just a disagreeable person because most of what I see in the real world seems more like BS to me and it doesn't seem to be working out all that well.
AC

---------------------------

Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman

evolvingape

Re: Growth « Reply #20 on: 2013-04-26, 20:36:18 »

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I have open sourced all the information required to understand what I am doing, so in a sense I have told everyone, and that's what I meant. Whether they understand it or not having read it is another question.

I have taken a different route, I have based everything on known technologies and simply integrated them into a system in a different way. Nothing I am doing (that anyone knows about) is new and therefore has already been proved and it is all open source.

If you have an excellent water resource local to you then you have what you need to run my system, which requires a heat source. An AC Induction Heater Supersonic Pulsometer will provide you with electrical output, space heating and distilled drinking water and is designed to run 24/7 365 with no maintenance as it is all automatically governed by pressure differentials. The only thing you will need to do is set the cyclic rate on your water source flow control valve and therefore control generator RPM which will control the heat source.

Feelings and emotion are the driving force behind a humans existence, without them you are nothing more than an automaton and will achieve little in life. Controlling your feelings and emotion is the real challenge and channelling them as a force for good in this world is not easy but is possible, but then we all make mistakes also.

Rob

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Everyman Standing Order 01: In the Face of Tyranny; Everybody Stands, Nobody Runs.
Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security.
Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.

Allcanadian

Re: Growth « Reply #21 on: 2013-04-26, 23:48:11 »

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@evolvingape

That sounds pretty interesting and I hope everything works out for you in the future. I think it's time for a change and people like yourself and the many others working at the grassroots level will make a difference. At the end of the day were going to have to do this ourselves and the supposed "humanitarians" generally show up only after the scent of profit is thick in the air.

AC

---------------------------

Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman