What is going on in Min2oly's "Radiant Energy 101" clip?

MileHigh · 2012.02.10, 04:45:13

Here's the clip:

Min2oly is explaining what "radiant energy" is to his audience. I am saying that he is making this clip without knowing what is really and truly going on. That's an unfortunate thing because if you do understand what is going on then your experimenting can be that much more interesting and rewarding.

There are some around here that have built one, two, perhaps even a dozen Bedini motors and have played with coils, capacitors, diodes and batteries in all sorts of different setups.

Anyone is free to contribute to the thread but the focus here is on the builders. If you build something you should know how it works. I am just going to watch from the sidelines and make some colour commentary. Try to keep your eye on the ball and discuss what is going on on the clip. When somebody really gets the explanation right I will shout, "Bingo!"

MileHigh

MileHigh · 2012.02.10, 04:49:20

Magluvin is the first to contribute with these comments:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MAGLUVIN FIRST COMMENT >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Its a boost converter.

When the battery is put across the coil, current begins to flow. As it flows, a magnetic field is built in the coil, and as the field builds, more current from the battery is taken.

When he disconnects the battery from the coil, the magnetic field collapses, causing currents to continue to flow through the coil, through the diode and into the cap, as it is the only short path available once the red wire is disconnected.. Mind you the current in the coil never changes direction. Wink

Didnt I do pages of this stuff at ou?

Tuff one.

Mags

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MAGLUVIN SECOND COMMENT >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Well how deep does the rabbit hole go?

More surface talk.....

Another possibility is, that I can only assume what orientation the diode is in, which determines the way current can flow through it.

Even if we reverse the diode, we still get our high voltage to the cap, but it is opposite polarity now.

When we charge a coil as shown in the vid, the field builds, and when we disconnect the source from the coil, that field collapses.

If we have a perfect switch used to connect and disconnect the source to the coil, meaning when on its on, but when off it will not allow current to flow, not even HV spark, then when we disconnect(open switch) the "forward" voltage of the collapse has only the path of the diode to charge the cap of my previous description of the vid.

What if we dont have a diode and cap? With our perfect switch, when we open it, the field collapses. And as it collapses down toward zero field, there is no place or path for the voltage potential produced by the collapsing coil to go.

Coils have capacitance. So the combination of coil with built in capacitance we have an LC. Single wire coils have very small capacitance between windings, and bifilar coils have a higher capacitance.

If you charge up an LC and disconnect, it will oscillate. So when we disconnect the source from our coil with no diode and no cap, our coil will oscillate at very high freq due to very small capacitance in our coil. The oscillation dies pretty quickly. No oscillation occurs if we have a path for that potential to the cap. The oscillation will be heavily damped

So if we reconnect our diode and cap, only we reverse the diode, when the source is disconnected from the coil, and the field collapses. But with no where for a continued forward potential current to flow, the coil goes into its oscillation mode, and the field collapses very quickly, and when the field polarity of the coil reverses during oscillation, N S to S N, that is when the potential of the coil has a path for current through the diode and to the cap for storage.

This is what I call back emf. In my original description, I call it forward emf, meaning that when we disconnect the source from the coil, the collapsing field current is in the same direction as the current produced by the source through the coil.
In this reversed diode description, once the field of the coil reverses within 1/4 wave of LC oscillation, then the output of the coils current is in the opposite direction of the original source current. Back emf.

The output to the cap in either situation will be nearly the same. Possibly a small, tiny, itiy bitty, difference due to the bemf version may have lost some due to the dying oscillation during that 1/4 wave of oscillation mode, being that the oscillation eventually dies. So there is some loss in each cycle.

There are some out there that use the term bemf when actually to be correct in some situations, should use just emf or forward emf, produced by the collapsing field of a coil.

Well, im beat. Dont really have time to edit errors.

Magsleeps soon

MileHigh · 2012.02.10, 04:57:45

Magluvin:

QuoteEven if we reverse the diode, we still get our high voltage to the cap, but it is opposite polarity now.

That's not correct. Sometimes it helps to make a simple drawing on paper. You might want to try that and see what comes up.

For your discussion about a open-circuit coil ringing because of the self-capacitance and all that, the essence of what you were saying was right but it has nothing to do with the clip.

Again, bringing it back to the clip, for anyone and especially the builders: What is really happening in Minn2oly's clip?

MileHigh

MileHigh · 2012.02.12, 21:42:32

Anytime a pulse motor builder gives me flack about "not being a builder" I am going to point them to this thread.

Again: Explain what is really going on in this clip and point out where Min2oly is wrong.

My take on it is that there is no point in building pulse motors if you can't dissect this clip and understand exactly what is going on.....

Revenge of the nerds!

MileHigh

poynt99 · 2012.02.12, 22:25:30

Hey,

I just watched that clip for the first time. All I can say is:

OMG!

Harvey · 2012.02.13, 02:42:54

There probably is some radiant energy produced when the handheld jumper loses contact with the diode inductor junction - most likely it is present in the RF bands where it could be easily detected with a nearby AM radio (since radio energy is radiant energy).

However, this experiment is demonstrating the capture of the BEMF spike produced at that moment the jumper loses contact.

1. Jumper makes contact and current immediately flows through the 8-filar series connected inductor but is temporarily limited by the inductive reactance.
2. A magnetic field forms around the inductor commensurate with current flow which increases with time.
3. Jumper loses contact and current flow is abruptly ended
4. Magnetic field collapses into the inductor and attempts to keep the current flowing but the path is broken
5. Charges accumulate across the coil and are measured at voltage. Normally these charges would 'ring' down until dissipated but the diode prevents that.
6 Voltage present at the cathode of the diode is retained thus charging the capacitor.
7. The meter gives us an approximated integration of the capacitor charge - the meter also loads the circuit with some internal path thus slowly discharging the capacitor.

What would be more interesting here - is a discussion on the best way to maximize the efficiency of the process - Joule Ringer comes to mind http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glRuwV9IlaY

muDped · 2012.02.13, 02:44:02

Quote from: MileHigh
...
Again: Explain what is really going on in this clip and point out where Min2oly is wrong.
...

It is possible to perform that task in
a positive, constructive and educationally
sound fashion.

Pretend that you are Min2Oly.

How would you desire someone to step
forward and show you the error?

Could you provide us an example of how
this might best take place?

MileHigh · 2012.02.13, 03:13:42

Thanks for the go at it Harvey but still looking for the answer. Hoping a pulse motor builder will post.

Dumped, just chill with the politically correct social engineering please, it's oppressive.

Allcanadian · 2012.02.13, 04:33:45

@Poynt99

QuoteI just watched that clip for the first time. All I can say is:
OMG!

I just watched the video and I would agree, Double OMG, I can almost feel the radiant energy coming off that puppy from all the way up here in Canada, the man is a musical genius just like Stevie Wonder. On another note something is whacked in that video, either his diode is pooched the meter is shot or he is using an electrolytic cap connected backwards because there is no way in hell the cap should bleed off that fast.
Regards
AC

muDped · 2012.02.13, 06:03:15

Quote from: MileHigh
...
Dumped, just chill with the politically correct social engineering please, it's oppressive.

Just an appeal to bring out the civility and
breeding that resides within you.

Nay, not social engineering - but I can see
where one might think so.

That you desire to cling to a manner of behavior
which you find mischievously delightful in defiance
to encouragement to act otherwise may indeed
seem "oppressive." It may be that you perceive
it to be your principal means of wielding "power"
over your peers - thus, to give it up would be a
most difficult decision.

The art of being a gentleman seems long lost.

MileHigh · 2012.02.13, 06:11:17

Dumped,

I think you should try getting into a contest with AC, the two of you might be like pees in a pod. I am not going to engage you, the 9/11 debate was a life's worth for me.

MileHigh

Farmhand · 2012.02.13, 15:51:45

Hello MileHigh, My first post here. I think at about 4:20 mins in the video he gets a bit mixed up and says the radiant spike gets to the capacitor before the current flows through the short back to the battery. I think what is actually happening is the short is charging the coil and building a magnetic field, when the circuit is opened the magnetic field collapses and charges the cap. First he applies the voltage then current charges the coil, the circuit is then opened and the magnetic field then collapses producing emf to charge the cap, there is current involved in that too.

There is still current flowing through the short but if the connection is brief enough maximum current won't happen. I think his coil has too much resistance, the cap is too small and probably should be an electrolytic one.

I haven't built many pulse motors though just two.

Cheers

Allcanadian · 2012.02.13, 19:52:26

@Farmhand

QuoteThere is still current flowing through the short but if the connection is brief enough maximum current won't happen. I think his coil has too much resistance, the cap is too small and probably should be an electrolytic one.

I would not use the term "short" but rather "path", there are two paths 1)from the battery through the coil when the jumper closes the circuit and 2)from the battery through the coil, the diode, the capacitor and back to the battery when the jumper opens path 1. It should be noted the battery is in series with the discharging coil and that the coil acts as a current source when discharging. It should also be noted that the converter becomes very inefficient once the magnetic field of the coil is no longer expanding yet current is still flowing, in fact this energy is completely wasted relative to the charging of the capacitor.
Regards
AC

Farmhand · 2012.02.13, 20:37:59

G'day AC, Yeah path is maybe a better term, I was thinking along the lines of the circuit is already complete but an idle/open circuit (because of the cap) until he taps the negative of the coil to the negative of the cap/battery thereby completing the path (closed circuit) from the battery through the coil.

The second path you indicated is not made until he manually connects the wire and is not how you say it is if I am seeing the video correctly. He put's the capacitor in parallel with the battery after the cap is charged. When he discharges the capacitor into the battery the coil and diode are not in the active circuit path. From what I can tell. I drew a picture of the circuit and I'm looking at it now, your right, the diode prevents shorting of the cap but closes the circuit by bypassing the cap and diode.

That's how it looks to me.

Farmhand · 2012.02.13, 21:02:55

Also. The way I see it the coil produces emf when the magnetic field collapses, and it's that emf which causes the current which in turn I think induces back emf. Although the back emf is pretty much irrelevant to this conversation in my opinion. But it is worth mentioning I guess.

My main points would be that the emf from the battery when applied across the coil causes current flow, this charges the coil (builds the magnetic field), then when the circuit is opened and the magnetic field collapses the coil becomes a source of emf, which causes current flow if the circuit is configured to allow it.

Cheers

MileHigh · 2012.02.13, 23:54:37

Welcome to the forum Farmhand. I have seen your comments on OU and on YouTube and they show that you have your feet firmly planted on the ground.

Lots of you have made good comments mixed in with some bad comments and you are starting to converge on the solution but still no Bingo! Farmhand you are right that Min2oly's comment at 4:20 is wrong. It's pure "old wives' tale" material and let's say it's the equivalent of speaking English and not being able to conjugate the verbs "to have" and "to be" properly. It's a grave error he is making.

As a hint, it also makes sense to look at examples like this in terms of energy also. i.e.; Discuss what is happening in the clip when you look at the energy.

Also, no one has discussed the core vs. no core aspect.

Still challenging any pulse motor builders besides Farmhand to chime in.

MileHigh

Harvey · 2012.02.14, 01:16:25

"...Still challenging any pulse motor builders..."

Is this a pulse motor?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=m6DiE81UBfs

Magluvin · 2012.02.14, 02:47:42

Is this a pulse motor? Hehe hey Harvey! How ya doin?

Here is a pulse motor, using the back emf, or what ever one might call it at any time, place or way, to a 5 ohm 5w resistor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7PR8JEVp7A

Mags

MileHigh · 2012.02.14, 05:21:13

Mags and Harvey:

So you guys get your hands dirty, good for both of you. (Whoops! I think Farmhand mentioned that he is a builder too.)

From my experience online, the problem is that perhaps 9 out of 10 pulse motor builders could not even begin to comment on Min2oly's clip. Perhaps 4 out of those 10 also get "corrupted" like Min2oly.

Mags I watched your clip and I have an observation and a related question. The observation is that most pulse motor builders either don't try to measure the average output power from the inductive spike that goes to the charging battery or they believe that it's impossible to measure the power of the "radiant energy."

In your clip from 2009, you have a 5-watt resistor that gets quite hot. You don't have a charging battery and instead you just have the 5-watt resistor. So the question is have you ever tried to measure the average output power of the inductive spike?

Just curious if the build is still intact and sitting on a shelf somewhere.

MileHigh

Magluvin · 2012.02.14, 05:37:52

I dont have that setup at this time. I have all of the coils rotor and mags etc. It isnt too difficult to setup.

At the time I believed I was showing the average power of the spike, by routing it to a cap via a diode then to the 5ohm resistor.

Tell me more.

Mags

Groundloop · 2012.02.14, 15:06:29

MileHigh,

Do you think it is possible to use a very short (in the nanoseconds range) pulse onto a wire
or a coil and then extract the first short voltage spike before any real current is starting to
flow in that wire or coil?

GL.

MileHigh · 2012.02.15, 02:16:02

Mags and Groundloop:

If you are going to verbally describe a simple circuit please give a complete description. I will try to comment anyways.

Mags, if you have your cap in parallel with the 5-ohm resistor and they are connected to ground, and the coil output is feeding the cap/resistor on the other side, chances are that the cap is smoothing out the pulsing to a nice DC value. That's how you measure the average power out from the pulsing coil. You didn't say the value of the cap though. Also, if you can measure the average output power, you are well on the way to measuring the value of the inductance of the coil.

Also, do you have a scope?

So if we assume that the voltage across the cap is near-DC and you are measuring 2.5 volts that would be 1.25 watts dissipated in the resistor that wouldn't make sense because you said the resistor was running very hot. So chances are something else was going on.

Notice that you have a very low resistance of only five ohms. Who says that you can lower and lower the resistance without some other effect affecting the average output power from the coil? So that's the big hint, can you think about what may coming into play there? Also, if you are going to split hairs, you should measure the output power with the voltage across the cap at a stable 12.6 volts (or thereabouts) to emulate the missing charging battery. Another brain teaser, why would that be the case?

For Groundloop, when you say extract the short voltage spike, I assume that you mean the energy in the spike. Is that correct?

We know that EM waves travel about 30 cm in empty space in one nanosecond. Let's say that a voltage signal travels about 10 cm through wire in one nanosecond.

Suppose your coil consists of a length of wire that's 1000 cm long (10 meters). So if you make a 10 nanosecond pulse that will travel along the wire and be about 100 cm in length. So in this case the coil is not even a coil with the property of inductance anymore. It acts like a microwave transmission line in this case. Once frequencies become very high microwave transmission line effects take over. You can still work out exactly what happens but you are in a different realm that is above and beyond basic electronics.

Again, for both of you, you must describe exactly what the configuration of your circuit is if you want to understand it. Electronics is a precise science and talking in generalities without describing things properly really doesn't work. I may sound anal but it's the truth.

MileHigh

Groundloop · 2012.02.15, 06:17:13

Quote from: MileHigh on 2012.02.15, 02:16:02
Mags and Groundloop:

If you are going to verbally describe a simple circuit please give a complete description. I will try to comment anyways.

Mags, if you have your cap in parallel with the 5-ohm resistor and they are connected to ground, and the coil output is feeding the cap/resistor on the other side, chances are that the cap is smoothing out the pulsing to a nice DC value. That's how you measure the average power out from the pulsing coil. You didn't say the value of the cap though. Also, if you can measure the average output power, you are well on the way to measuring the value of the inductance of the coil.

Also, do you have a scope?

So if we assume that the voltage across the cap is near-DC and you are measuring 2.5 volts that would be 1.25 watts dissipated in the resistor that wouldn't make sense because you said the resistor was running very hot. So chances are something else was going on.

Notice that you have a very low resistance of only five ohms. Who says that you can lower and lower the resistance without some other effect affecting the average output power from the coil? So that's the big hint, can you think about what may coming into play there? Also, if you are going to split hairs, you should measure the output power with the voltage across the cap at a stable 12.6 volts (or thereabouts) to emulate the missing charging battery. Another brain teaser, why would that be the case?

For Groundloop, when you say extract the short voltage spike, I assume that you mean the energy in the spike. Is that correct?

We know that EM waves travel about 30 cm in empty space in one nanosecond. Let's say that a voltage signal travels about 10 cm through wire in one nanosecond.

Suppose your coil consists of a length of wire that's 1000 cm long (10 meters). So if you make a 10 nanosecond pulse that will travel along the wire and be about 100 cm in length. So in this case the coil is not even a coil with the property of inductance anymore. It acts like a microwave transmission line in this case. Once frequencies become very high microwave transmission line effects take over. You can still work out exactly what happens but you are in a different realm that is above and beyond basic electronics.

Again, for both of you, you must describe exactly what the configuration of your circuit is if you want to understand it. Electronics is a precise science and talking in generalities without describing things properly really doesn't work. I may sound anal but it's the truth.

MileHigh

MileHigh,

Let me start by saying that I know that electronics is a precise science, and I also know what a transmission line is.
And it is not a problem for me to design and build a switch that can switch on and off in the nanoseconds range.

>>For Groundloop, when you say extract the short voltage spike, I assume that you mean the energy in the spike. Is that correct?
No, just a voltage potential and no current transferred over the transmission line.

And you did not answer my question. So I will ask again:

Do YOU (as a person) think it will be possible to put a short nanosecond pulse onto a transmission line of some length,
then switch off the input pulse before any current has started to flow over the transmission line, and then switch on
a load at the other end of the transmission line to capture energy into a load?

A simple yes or no answer will do fine.

GL.

Harvey · 2012.02.15, 08:19:09

Quote from: Magluvin on 2012.02.14, 02:47:42
Is this a pulse motor? Hehe hey Harvey! How ya doin?

Here is a pulse motor, using the back emf, or what ever one might call it at any time, place or way, to a 5 ohm 5w resistor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7PR8JEVp7A

Mags

Hiya Mags,

Doin ok I suppose - could use about 40K to dig myself out of this economic rabbit hole I fell into though

Haven't been online much lately but the forum here sent me an email saying it was going to drop my account so I figured I should probably pop in and say hi at least

What ever happened with the mini MEG . . . ORBO BonBon thing - did you ever get any surplus out of that config? I was going to analyze Bearden's take on all that but first I wanted to dig into Heaviside's stuff since Bearden was throwing his name in the mix and when I started on that I realized I needed to read Maxwell's original paper - and about half way through that I got sidetracked and never finished. Sure would be nice to pin down exactly what energy pool all these fellows are extracting from, i.e. T.H. Moray, Tesla, Marks, Schwartz etc. Perhaps Dirac was right and there is something there to balance it all out. Interesting thing about Schwartz' work is that energy output would be slightly higher facing the sun than facing away and definitely showed extreme variance related to distance from the equator.

On another note there should be a lot more sporadic claims coming in as we approach the solar maximum and the sun spots wreak havoc on all the testing going on globally.

I hope Milehigh gets the answer he's looking for. I'm pretty sure my analysis is spot on, but I'm too apathetic to care either way

Best wishes to all.

MileHigh · 2012.02.16, 00:16:04

Harvey:

There is a possibility that your analysis is spot on but your write up is sometimes ambiguous. When I first read it I may have misconstrued ambiguity in your prose as flat-out errors. Describing a process is tricky.

Groundloop:

QuoteDo YOU (as a person) think it will be possible to put a short nanosecond pulse onto a transmission line of some length,
then switch off the input pulse before any current has started to flow over the transmission line, and then switch on
a load at the other end of the transmission line to capture energy into a load?

No. Power flows through the transmission line, the wave has to have an electric and a magnetic component. The rate of change of the electric field with respect to time will induce a corresponding magnetic field as determined by the impedance of the transmission line.

In a related matter, there is no such thing as "one wire energy transmission." All of those demos rely on high-frequency AC and capacitive coupling always provides the "invisible second wire."

MileHigh