Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it?

Author Topic: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? (Read 37580 times)

MileHigh	Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #25 on: 2012-03-03, 16:28:49 »
Hero Member Posts: 1888	On second thought it could be a Coriolis Vortex Amplifier (CVA). The magnet and the ball are act like a resonant Coriolis flux antenna that opens a portal to the vortex amplification effect. You should study John Bidinkie, 1823 - 1862.

GibbsHelmholtz

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #26 on: 2012-03-03, 16:37:55 »

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Let's start with some simple thought experiment.

I drew a picture with one of us inside the wheel. Of course we all know if he run, the wheel turn. The twist is that we'll also put needles such that if he moves left or right, no matter how slight, will be poked. Now as long as he run at a constant speed, he life is not in danger. What happens if he accelerate just a tiny winy bit on accident! Would he ever can get back to constant speed or the wheel keep going faster and faster until explode?

Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it?

rollRdeath.bmp (576.05 kB, 512x384 - viewed 645 times.)

EMdevices

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #27 on: 2012-03-03, 16:55:30 »

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the static magnetic field produces a linear force on the steel ball, and not a torque. However, a torque appears if the ball is displaced from equilibrium because there is friction and reaction against the rails. But a picture is worth a thousand words!

EM

Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it?

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Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it?

magball02.JPG (24.1 kB, 520x395 - viewed 614 times.)

MileHigh	Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #28 on: 2012-03-03, 16:57:32 »
Hero Member Posts: 1888	Gibbs: Yes, Dr. Wilhelm Reich experimented with that effect. Quote Would he ever can get back to constant speed or the wheel keep going faster and faster until explode? There was a typo there, it should read as follows: Would he ever can get back to constant speed or the wheel keep going faster and faster until he explodes? MileHigh

GibbsHelmholtz

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #29 on: 2012-03-03, 17:37:54 »

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I feel something really fishy here.

If the guy in my picture walk for 1/4 of the circumference in space with no gravity, he would end up like in the left. He move 1/4 left, the wheel move 1/4 right (let's say they have the same inertia). Now let's turn gravity on this position, he would drag and accelerate the wheel. Now let's combine both superpositions into one (which is the reality of the experiment here), we have the guy walk for 1/4 circumference and the wheel position end up like the right (move twice of his distance).

You think this is weird, but if you put two coins together and roll one coin around the other, the rolling coin will take twice the circumference to get back to its original position.

Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it?

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GibbsHelmholtz

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #30 on: 2012-03-03, 19:44:14 »

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Quote from: EMdevices on 2012-03-03, 16:55:30

the static magnetic field produces a linear force on the steel ball, and not a torque. However, a torque appears if the ball is displaced from equilibrium because there is friction and reaction against the rails. But a picture is worth a thousand words!

EM

I agree and here's a question. Let's say the ball is out of balance below the magnet. Of course the ball will try to go up to the magnet. Would the wheel move CW or CCW in your picture?

If the ball is stuck to the wheel, we would certainly know the answer.

PhysicsProf	Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #31 on: 2012-03-03, 20:04:55 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3249	So how do we resolve the issue of whether this is real (the wheel spins continually without hidden motor, etc.) or fake? Will endless debates solve the matter? I think its fake based on some experience, but I suggest that the way to find out is to do the experiment. « Last Edit: 2012-03-03, 22:38:49 by PhysicsProf »

GibbsHelmholtz	Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #32 on: 2012-03-03, 21:15:52 »
Hero Member Posts: 700	If you guys think there is something interesting to experiment. I propose this experiment. We can design something similar like a wheel/ball within a wheel/drum. Let it roll down a ramp. Record the initial and final height when it come up on the other side. Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? exp.1.bmp (576.05 kB, 512x384 - viewed 556 times.)

MileHigh	Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #33 on: 2012-03-03, 22:01:27 »
Hero Member Posts: 1888	I think this one is based on advanced new single-wire Mylow technology.

BEP	Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #34 on: 2012-03-04, 02:59:42 »
Hero Member Posts: 2205	Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2012-03-03, 04:13:09 Mister Hand is doing it! I'll bet he can't bolt that magnet down and have the wheel keep moving! Ha Ha I already told ya'll how it worked

Harvey

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #35 on: 2012-03-04, 05:45:32 »

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Posts: 81

Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2012-03-04, 02:59:42

I already told ya'll how it worked

I agree. At least it won't operate for very long in a fixed stator environment.

One thing to observe is that the attraction of the stator magnet is not in a linear direction. In fact, it follows an inverse cube rule of a spherical nature - but in this demonstration it is probably closer to an inverse square rule. The attraction is such that it lifts the ball in the rail above the centerline of the magnet - whereas if the rail were missing it would attract straight into the centerline as was shown prior.

So what is the result? The rail allows the ball to get closer but at the expense of storing gravitational potential energy as it raises it, however there is an acceleration and associated momentum which carries the ball past a point of equilibrium and the gravitational potential energy is then converted to kinetic energy in the opposite direction. If the rail were immovable, then the ball would oscillate as magnetic and gravitational forces exchange until equilibrium is found. However, because the rail is free to move, all of the various things like bearing friction, air drag, paramagnetic braking, surface irregularities etc. all interact in a way that delays equilibrium.

However, even though we are separating the two fields (gravity and magnetic) into non-conservative quadrants where energy could be extracted, eventually the system will achieve equilibrium and stop moving. Small adjustments are there by Mr. Hand to delay that inevitability.

Q. Would it be possible to fabricate an electronic or mechanical adjustment that utilized less energy than that produced by the turning wheel - thereby removing Mr. Hand and keeping the system in constant imbalance?

exnihiloest

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #36 on: 2012-03-04, 10:58:27 »

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This story of ball and wheel is a particular case of a general misconception about dynamics. The dynamics of any thing is due to an imbalanced starting situation. The cause for something to move is this disequilibrium, and the dynamics is to lower the energy and recover the balance by reducing the starting imbalance.

Those who think that the imbalance can be maintained so that there is a perpetual motion are illogical because doing that, they remove the cause for the motion! If a system configuration at time t is the same as at time t+1, what would be the cause for a change?

BEP

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #37 on: 2012-03-04, 12:41:59 »

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If a system configuration at time t is the same as at time t+1 then there has been no change. That question was illogical. The question being illogical doesn't make the questioner illogical.

Harvey's question is valid and he is not illogical for posing it. The answer maybe "Nothing.". The answer may be beyond our current comprehension. In any case, it is obvious that none of us have a positive answer for the question.

So, why does the debate continue and the insults begin?

BEP

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #38 on: 2012-03-04, 13:11:28 »

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Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2012-03-03, 16:37:55

Let's start with some simple thought experiment.

I drew a picture with one of us inside the wheel. Of course we all know if he run, the wheel turn. The twist is that we'll also put needles such that if he moves left or right, no matter how slight, will be poked. Now as long as he run at a constant speed, he life is not in danger. What happens if he accelerate just a tiny winy bit on accident! Would he ever can get back to constant speed or the wheel keep going faster and faster until explode?

GibbsHelmholtz,

I love your graphic! Very clearly, it depicts the situation of the engineer with the customer sticking from behind him and the accountants sticking from before him.

It is also applicable to someone attempting to have a fun discussion of the esoteric even under a thread title containing the words "Just for fun". It may be best to give up and simply be impaled.

exnihiloest

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #39 on: 2012-03-04, 13:14:45 »

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Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2012-03-04, 12:41:59

If a system configuration at time t is the same as at time t+1 then there has been no change. That question was illogical. The question being illogical doesn't make the questioner illogical.

Are you not able to go beyond a litteral formulation?!
There is no change between a wheel at a certain position and the same wheel after a rotation of some angle. All physical parameters are identical.
If there is no tag on the wheel, you will not be able to distinguish between the two positions by any physical measurement method. Study Newton's first law.

Quote

Harvey's question is valid and he is not illogical for posing it.
...
So, why does the debate continue and the insults begin?

You are assigning me yourself alleged intents. I have not said that Harvey's question is not valid, for the reason that I had not even read Harvey's reply!

. If I had replied to Harvey, I would have indicated it.

My reply was a general thought about the idea involved in this thread, because it appears regularly under multiple forms. It was not related to Harvey's post.

Your question is therefore an ad hominem attack due to a biaised mind. Insults come only from you. You are wasting our time with digressions and false accusations, ww.

exnihiloest

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #40 on: 2012-03-04, 14:14:40 »

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Quote from: Harvey on 2012-03-04, 05:45:32

...
Q. Would it be possible to fabricate an electronic or mechanical adjustment that utilized less energy than that produced by the turning wheel - thereby removing Mr. Hand and keeping the system in constant imbalance?

My previous reply about imbalance was not related to yours, just a coincidence misinterpreted by ww. It was a likely coincidence because it was obvious that the underlying question of this thread is that of a "perpetual imbalance".

Now a constant imbalance is a static situation. Note that "static situation" doesn't imply stationarity, because Newton's first law and relativity say that there is no difference between something at rest and something moving at constant speed, it is just a question of the observer's viewpoint. This was the confusion from ww between dynamics and kinematics.
Kinematics doesn't imply a change of any physical parameter inside the observed system to be considered as a closed system, when only constant speeds are involved. So there is no possibility to extract energy from this situation which is really static in despite the viewpoint of an external observer who sees a movement.
If we deal with dynamics, it is different. In this case, something must change inside the observed system and so we could expect for producing energy. If there are changes, the system can be in different states, at least between the start point and other positions. So the question becomes: are there means to return to the state of the start point and repeat the cycle? It is very doubtful, because if there is a cause for the system to go from the state A to B, it is still valid when we want the system to go from B to A and so it acts in the reverse direction. And we must keep in mind that this applies even for any elementary action at any instant of time.
I propose that we keep the perpetual motion of the first kind for the time after finding those of the second kind, we will have time to waste...

MileHigh

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #41 on: 2012-03-04, 16:22:44 »

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There is no fancy mechanism for energy to come from Mr. Hand. The acceleration of the fairly large wheel, which appears to be made out of aluminum and possess a decent amount of rotational inertia, is quite abrupt and represents much more acceleration than a wobbling metal ball bearing could possibly transfer to the wheel. That's assuming the Mr. Hand mechanism would even work at all which I seriously doubt.

I think that about 30 turns of fishing line are spooled around the wheel. There are two channels on either side of the wheel rim that are perfect for that. Off camera there is somebody with a similar wheel that is being used as the receiving spool. This person is the mysterious power source for the wheel that we see on camera.

It's the old trick were the camera can't see the fishing line. I use the term "fishing line" as a lay person's term. You can see in their other clips that they have built all sorts of intricate mechanical devices and must know their stuff. There is probably a near-invisible type of transparent filament that is used in the movie industry that is much thinner and much less visible than fishing line. It probably comes in different maximum tension grades and a low-tension version of this filament like you could use for this application would be nearly invisible to the naked eye, and completely invisible to an ordinary camera.

The whole point of the slip is to suggest to you that the ball bearing can make the wheel spin when in fact the vast majority of the forces associated with the ball bearing are radial and therefore can't make the wheel spin by definition.

GibbsHelmholtz	Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #42 on: 2012-03-04, 16:35:31 »
Hero Member Posts: 700	Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012-03-04, 10:58:27 ... If a system configuration at time t is the same as at time t+1, what would be the cause for a change? What if I show you a situation where configuration at t is the same as t+1, though we still have a cause for change.

ion

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #43 on: 2012-03-04, 16:55:24 »

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It's turtles all the way down

I outlined what I consider a more elegant possible approach to the Bessler wheel prime mover in this thread:

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=129.0

I admit the sketches I supplied may be difficult to comprehend, but if you read the thread in it's entirety you will get the idea.

---------------------------

"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

Harvey

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #44 on: 2012-03-05, 00:42:20 »

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Posts: 81

Let us have another thought experiment wherein the device has a similar function as this thread's device.

Most all of us are familiar with the Lenz law demonstration where a magnet is dropped into a copper tube. We have clear evidence that the time involved to traverse the distance is greatly increased due to the magnetic braking. Therefore, the tube being held rigid prevents the magnet from falling as fast as gravity would accelerate it.

Let us make the tube very long. In fact, let us curve the tube ever so slightly so that it represents a gradual arc. To take it further, let us make the tube so long, that eventually it arcs back to itself and makes a circle, a very large circle.

Next, let us mount the circle to a hub at its center with low friction bearings so the tube is now free to move along that path so that our tube stands vertically with its hub and axle in the horizontal.

Inside is a round spherical magnet with good clearance on all sides.

Using an exterior magnet, we raise the internal spherical magnet up to the level of the axle and then we pull the exterior magnet horizontally away from the axle quickly enough so that the internal sphere magnetically centers itself due to Lenz's Law and there is no contact with the tube before it drops scarcely any appreciable distance (especially compared to the immense diameter of the tube).

Keeping in mind Newtons third law of motion and understanding correctly the magnetic principles involved in Lenz's Law, what motion (if any) can we expect from our copper tube?

What conditions would be necessary to keep our sphere magnet suspended at the axle height?

How does the cyclic nature of the magnetic interaction impact the resultant motion(s)?

Digression: Is the Lenz connection of the sphere to the copper similar to any real connection of the ferromagnetic ball and its rail in this threads device? Is the friction cyclic? If so, how does that impact the involved motion(s)?

ArtistGuy

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #45 on: 2012-03-05, 02:08:00 »

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Posts: 59

Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2012-03-03, 20:04:55

I suggest that the way to find out is to do the experiment.

+1

Agreed. Talk is cheap and parts are $, but it's the only valid way.

However, considering this thing has been around since 1823...and it's not used in practice, why would that be? Suppression? Hardly. Probably because it does not work. If it did work, it would...work. And be working out there already.

Secondly, in the video the presenter does not show themselves, and in my observation, such is usual symptom of fake. People with real things want to be known for it, unless they live in paranoia land.

rc

MileHigh

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #46 on: 2012-03-05, 03:59:48 »

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Harvey:

I note from past experience that you are really into "magnetic esoterica." I really think the implicit operative or message in that clip is that they are showing you something specifically for the purpose of ultimately making you realize that what they are showing you is not really true. They are showing you a form of propaganda. So it's an implicit massage saying "beware of what you see because this is performance art illustrating how people can be swayed by false scientific propaganda" or something like that. Will they reveal that in the future is unknown and I somehow doubt it.

Certainly what they say in the description is not true, the ball is not acting like an unbalanced weight on one side of the wheel making it turn. The only way for that to be true would be for the ball to be fixed to the wheel, do an MGh drop through gravity, and them move back up and repeat he whole process again. So that's the explicit message, the ball has to be fixed to the wheel and fall to turn potential energy into kinetic energy. You can see from the comments on the clip that many people are being fooled.

Quote

Using an exterior magnet, we raise the internal spherical magnet up to the level of the axle and then we pull the exterior magnet horizontally away from the axle quickly enough so that the internal sphere magnetically centers itself due to Lenz's Law and there is no contact with the tube before it drops scarcely any appreciable distance (especially compared to the immense diameter of the tube).

Keeping in mind Newtons third law of motion and understanding correctly the magnetic principles involved in Lenz's Law, what motion (if any) can we expect from our copper tube?

What conditions would be necessary to keep our sphere magnet suspended at the axle height?

How does the cyclic nature of the magnetic interaction impact the resultant motion(s)?

Digression: Is the Lenz connection of the sphere to the copper similar to any real connection of the ferromagnetic ball and its rail in this threads device? Is the friction cyclic? If so, how does that impact the involved motion(s)?

If I understand you correctly you are describing a vibratory motor. A magnet exterior to the big wheel vibrates back and forth horizontally and when the magnet moves away from the wheel the spherical magnet inside the tube can fall and push the wheel forward because of the eddy currents induced in the tube holding he spherical magnet. When the exterior magnet moves towards the wheel the spherical magnet moves back up an the process starts all over. You can imagine a low frequency buzz because the cycle time would be quite short.

One would assume that would make the big wheel rotate. But compared to the clip in this example, any possible energy input from Mr. Hand is minuscule. It's much different from the "Minato motor" case where you are holding a magnet in free space with your arm and making something very small and very low mass turn due to an unconscious motor effect. In this example the hand is just fixing a magnet in place that's in a stable position on the table top. There really aren't any unconscious hand movement effects to deal with. And again, there are no real motor effects. The steel ball in this case is not a magnet either, and the only eddy current effects to speak of come from the rotating wheel passing the fixed magnet, and they cause the wheel to slow down.

There may be some other way they are doing it but invisible fishing line is certainly one distinct possibility. All it would take would be a little bit of rehearsing between two people, one off camera, rotating identical wheels.

MileHigh

« Last Edit: 2012-03-05, 05:28:34 by MileHigh »

MileHigh

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #47 on: 2012-03-05, 04:25:43 »

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There are some related and somewhat humourous incidents that come up from time to time, a kind of self-propagandizing related to observing phenomena and not going the full distance in thinking through the experiment. You can end up taking the data you see at face value even through it is suspect. I suppose Rosie is the champion when it comes to that.

Some of you that may have followed the Steorn saga might be aware of a certain Hugh Deasy. Now, any of you Canadians out there, perhaps more so those from British Columbia might be aware of a former premier named W.A.C. Bennett. He quickly earned the nickname "Wacky Bennett." Similarly Hugh Deasy, being a big proponent of Steorn and apparently having a scientific background, quickly earned the nickname, "Dizzy Deasy."

In this clip he says, "Motor seems to grow lighter when the rotor spins."

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5bxUdpJ940[/youtube]

The problem is that he is not asking himself how the bloody digital balance actually works. Like for example, is it sampling a few readings and then averaging the results? How would it cope if the object that you want to weigh is vibrating instead of just being a constant "DC" weight? Apparently these issues never entered Dizzy Deasy's mind.

In this clip he says, "I'm not showing any details but this moves without any wheels or any jet. Just an unbalanced force. My invention and I hope it will replace all planes, cars , rockets submarines etc."

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSvsRkckjkA&feature=plcp&context=C3c0a745UDOEgsToPDskKB7r1SYGY23vwpyFdEIYH5[/youtube]

I had a football game based on this principle as a kid. You had players that you put on a board. Then you flipped a switch and the board vibrated and you watched the players move down the field. In real life in factories and rock crushing plants and stuff like that they are called vibratory feeders and they are everywhere. Poor Dizzy Deasy has not discovered the "next big thing."

MileHigh

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #48 on: 2012-03-05, 04:36:24 »

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One more fun one from Mr. Deasy.

I have often warned about the dangers associated with short circuiting batteries, etc. For example, if you connected a 12-volt lead-acid battery in parallel with a 9-volt lead-acid battery, you would basically be short-circuiting the 12-volt battery. It would almost be the same as doing a direct short-circuit across the 12-volt battery.

This clip speaks for itself:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2-eeDWssLc&feature=plcp&context=C32289ffUDOEgsToPDskL6Gj4l-759xAW03chgDRUe[/youtube]

In this clip he makes a short circuit and within less than one second all of the plastic insulation around his wiring is already melting and smoking. If he did not disconnect the circuit over the next second all of the insulation would be burnt off and the wires would be glowing red hot. That's after two seconds. Over the next second the wires would have gotten white hot and started to burn through his table and start a fire. So within three seconds he could have been dealing with a fire.

Harvey	Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #49 on: 2012-03-05, 07:06:22 »
Jr. Member Posts: 81	Quote from: MileHigh on 2012-03-05, 03:59:48 . . . wheel the spherical magnet inside the tube can fall and push the wheel forward . . . Taking N3 (Newton's Third Law) into account - can you identify the reaction to the falling spherical magnet? Is it opposite?