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Author Topic: Gyroscopicgravity  (Read 21096 times)
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Which is exactly the conclusion i ended up with.

Looks like someone already built my UFO and his conclusion was it does not work
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQzu3peG4sY[/youtube]

Don't give up on this one. : )

Several things wrong with his approach...it's not robust enough, mainly. I would bet the reason those little motors don't work is they are too weak to fight the angular momentum of the spinning gyros attached, thus binding the axle up against it's bearing. So the reason they stop working is likely their small shafts lock against their bushing...and there's not enough force left to turn them. Also, he didn't spin them the other direction...such would have isolated it to the bearing and not some 'ether' lock (why do people think that's involved when it's just probably friction?)

The video's guy's experiment is one I've wanted to do for years, but lack the (mountable) flywheels or gyros to do it. If you take a toy spinning gyro and put it at 45 degrees and move it in an arc, you'll get a visceral feel for something that sure feels funky. : )

Laithwaite also demonstrated this with (I think) a 50 pound motorcycle wheel before the Royal science group... (the one that exiled him after for believing in this).

There are not many I believe in the "anti-grav" field...but Laithwaite is one and T Townsend Brown is the other.

rc
   
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EMDevices,  Get a real gyro and play with it.  You'll see there is no fraud in that video if you have played around with a fast spinning gyroscope.  You can easily have a gyro attached to a string at one end when spinning and it will stay horizontal as long as it's spinning fast while only being held by the string at one end with nothing to support the other end.  

Yes there is no fraud. And I am almost convinced that the "Laithwaite effect" is the same gyro effect that you show us, but inverted.

A gyro having a horizontal axle whose the end is placed on a pivot, turns around due to precession, as on your picture. This happens only if the gyro is submitted to a vertical force (gravity) that exerts a torque in a vertical plane onto the gyro axle.
Inversely the action of forcing a rotation similar to the precession, exerts a torque onto the gyro axle, and so, it goes up or down depending on the rotation direction.

To clearly show this effect, I have attached the end of the offset arm of my gyro to a flexible piece that is fastened to a ball bearing having a vertical axis secured to a heavy base (around 7Kg).
The horizontal rotation can last much more time that the gyro rotation.
Depending on the clockwise or anticlockwise direction of the rotation launched by hand, the gyro flies up or down and maintains its altitude during several turns before slowing.

It seems that there is no change of weight. Although I have weighted my system, I can't confirm this point 100% because my weighing machine was not very sensitive (0.1 Kg).

Imho we have not a vertical force acting onto the gyro, but a torque, and consequently the gyro weight is transfered to the pivot point which in the Faithwaite's experiment, is his hand. I'm almost convinced that his hand supports all the weight, but the torque that tends to raise the gyro compensates the ordinary torque caused by a weight at the end of a long arm, and consequently his hand can hold the ensemble because the force is now vertical and doesn't twist his wrist.


   
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I believe the officially accepted explanation is that no weight is lost or gained. It is simply shifted to another location.

I agree (see my previous post, question of torques that compensate one another).

   
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Quote from: EMdevices on 2012-05-28, 07:10:36
I think I've detected some fraud in the video.

You have a very twisted mind.  C.C This experiment was performed by Laithwaite  at the Royal Institution too.  ;) He was not exactly like RomeroUK or other scam artist. I suggest you to read about Laithwaite ad his work, before you accusing him making fake videos!  ???

@chef
 O0

and in spite the presentation was spectacular, the effect seems finally conventional.

   

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AG
I agree,i personally think he needs larger flywheels to get some real mass moving, if there is any weight loss it will be more apparent with larger weights and as you say his motors were not up to much.

It's interesting following this thread as the experimentation with gyro's is fascinating to say the least.

I can see that Laithwait did something interesting in that he seems to lift the weight quiet easily when spinning and somewhere when i first read the thread i found some text saying he had a little boy lift it as well, now if that can be proved then there must be something interesting going on which merits further builds.

I would suggest to anyone to use aircraft modelling motors and pwm motor drivers with a pic chip pwm generator and lock the speed of each flywheel using an rpm sensor/opto reflective, if this thing does loose weight then each parameter can be adjusted including the precession rotation speed.

Some years ago i played with a 12volt motor, it was not very large and had a very small shaft about 2mm diameter but quiet a large body for it's size, i was over running it at between 15-20 volts and the gyro effect became very pronounced at high revs, when placed on the floor it kept jumping onto the end of it's shaft and standing up, it could not stop it doing this, I'm not saying it lost weight but that it preferred to have an upright attitude with the large motor body up in the air with the whole weight of the motor bearing down on the spinning shaft end which was the opposite to where you would find it's center of mass, it was as if the center of mass had shifter to the end of the small shaft instead of the body where the real weight was.
   

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There is a u-tube collection of one public lecture which included the boy.

I think the weight was around 15lbs.
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Yes, the COG for the spinning mass relocates but that COG shift includes the mass of the rest of the device....gyro support, rod, bearing, etc.

All fascinating.

Just as interesting is his story of ridicule by his peers for bringing to light something that wasn't fully investigated nor all the correct math developed. I understand he and a colleague finally did develop the proper math before his death. Last I heard was those corrections are still not published in text books.



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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   
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I've also play with gyro before.  I would agree with the weight change experiment we did in here.  However, I still don't think he could lift that 40 pounds easily.  The experiment or the way we think is purely one axis precession.  The way he did looks to me it involve 2 axis precession at the same time. 




   

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Frequency equals matter...


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I throw chuks, that is nunchuks. Really fast spins, horizontal and vertical. When you get the precession just right the orbits seem weightless. This also about the time most people hit themselves. LOL. ;D
This process also lets you learn and gauge destination and speed coordination with your body in the middle. That being, the sticks can be [sent] to a destination behind you , out of sight and connect at point. The handoff symmetry, where he lifts the axil in a circular spire, that Laithwaite showed is right in synch with the precession he was experiencing.

But I have yet to see a really good chuker lift off. :o


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But I have yet to see a really good chuker lift off. :o

You have yet to see me 'chuk' myself in the one spot I kept hitting. It was always enough for lift-off  :D

Laithwaite didn't show the same kind of strain.


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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   
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I would agree with the weight change experiment we did in here.
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Which weight change? Did you have weighted a precessing gyro? I did it. Null result.
There is not one measurement showing it, in spite that the effect is strong. There is no upward force, there is only a torque applying onto the gyro axle, it's very different from a single force and well explains what we observe.

   

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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   

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Buy me some coffee
I Think he died which is annoying as he only lived 50 miles from me in that patent.
   
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Which weight change? Did you have weighted a precessing gyro? I did it. Null result.
There is not one measurement showing it, in spite that the effect is strong. There is no upward force, there is only a torque applying onto the gyro axle, it's very different from a single force and well explains what we observe.



lol

The delta weight is 0, but as I said, it may involves 2 torques.  I used to tie a toy gyro to a string and weight, but it is very sensitive unless you make a big one.   The best is to build one as big as his and feel it yourself. lol

 

 




 
   
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@exnihiloest
Quote
Imho we have not a vertical force acting onto the gyro, but a torque, and consequently the gyro weight is transfered to the pivot point which in the Faithwaite's experiment, is his hand. I'm almost convinced that his hand supports all the weight, but the torque that tends to raise the gyro compensates the ordinary torque caused by a weight at the end of a long arm, and consequently his hand can hold the ensemble because the force is now vertical and doesn't twist his wrist.


yes, I'm glad we are of the same opinion on this.    The gyro develops a torque, not a force, which is case 2 in my previous diagram.   So the guy has to lift 40 lb with one arm, and unless he is super strong, that's pretty hard to do.

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I detected some fraud...

Sorry guys, maybe "fraud" was too strong of a word.    

However, we are watching a VIDEO obviously, and it's meant for entertainment purposes.   Or perhaps it was meant for education through entertainment,  but nonetheless, he starts to change his voice BEFORE he lifts the weight,  and frankly that's dishonesty, or simply lying, a small white lie but a lie nonetheless.  It shows an intent to deceive, and if he is deceiving in this small mater, what's to say the scale is not fake?  meaning the weight is perhaps only 5 lb  ?

Does that change how gyros work?  not in the least!   I invite anybody to go to the gym and lift 40 lb with one hand!

EM
   

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@exnihiloest

yes, I'm glad we are of the same opinion on this.    The gyro develops a torque, not a force, which is case 2 in my previous diagram.   So the guy has to lift 40 lb with one arm, and unless he is super strong, that's pretty hard to do.

Sorry guys, maybe "fraud" was too strong of a word.    

However, we are watching a VIDEO obviously, and it's meant for entertainment purposes.   Or perhaps it was meant for education through entertainment,  but nonetheless, he starts to change his voice BEFORE he lifts the weight,  and frankly that's dishonesty, or simply lying, a small white lie but a lie nonetheless.  It shows an intent to deceive, and if he is deceiving in this small mater, what's to say the scale is not fake?  meaning the weight is perhaps only 5 lb  ?

Does that change how gyros work?  not in the least!   I invite anybody to go to the gym and lift 40 lb with one hand!

EM

40lb. with one hand isn't a problem for me.

If you ever have the chance, lift a spinning gyro of sizable weight as he did. You will be shocked how easy it is. IMHO he didn't need to fake anything. It should have happened exactly as he shows in the video.



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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   

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The thing about such a setup is that the COG is transferred to the supporting structure. This can be the bearings, shaft, your hand, wrist, elbow, shoulder and back. His arm didn't lift 40 pounds throughout the stunt.

You can bet he and his forty pound gyro total weight didn't change but his arm didn't need to lift 40lbs. through the whole process.

Think about it. Structurally, there is little difference to the gyro between a supporting rod and the person holding it.

This is why I used the word 'apparent' when referring to weight changes.


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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   
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I read the document that Chef posted on page one of this topic.    This guy did a lot of experiments that I have not heard of and were NEVER thought in school,  and I took a whole year of CALCULUS based Physics and a whole year of STATICS and DYNAMICS for engineers.    

I am extremely fascinated by the behavior of the gyro when hung from a long string as shown in the last two pages of that document that Chef posted.  It seems to describe the "Bohr atom model"  because there seem to be stable "orbits" that it prefers.

Another very interesting behavior seems to be the lack of centrifugal forces resulting from precession !   It's very interesting!  I will try to analyze the first picture I posted below, to understand why it tilts like it does.  
 
Also,  he had a little child lift a 24 lb force, and even at arms length, holding a 24 lb weight is hard to do.   Yes the gyro transfers its weight to the pivot but still, 24 lbs is hard to hold in your hand at arms length.

EM
« Last Edit: 2012-06-02, 06:07:37 by EMdevices »
   

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Yes the gyro transfers its weight to the pivot but still, 24 lbs is hard to hold in your hand at arms length.

It transfers its COG near to wherever the pivot manifest itself. It doesn't stop at your hand. If you stiffen your hand and wrist the weight is at your elbow, etc.

Gyroscopes are interesting with no fancy experiments. The most interesting fact I know about them is so few of the upper scientific crust think it is fascinating that COG can be transferred.

After all, it is just a rotary form of a lever but science typically doesn't do well when things go beyond static. They would rather scream 'Heretic' than resolve any possible questions, unless funding is available to do so  C.C Then, they will research the most ridiculous crap until the money is gone  >:(


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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   
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[edit:] not relevant
« Last Edit: 2012-06-07, 00:08:46 by EMdevices »
   
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You can bet he and his forty pound gyro total weight didn't change but his arm didn't need to lift 40lbs. through the whole process.
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There is only one possibility to transfer the weight to the ground and get the reaction force preventing the device to crash: through the pivot point.

See experiment #12http://gyroscopes.org/1974lecture.asp

The gyro is mounted on a spring. When it turns horizontally, we don't see any rising (contrarily to what Faithwaite says, but I'm not sure to well understand him). This proves that the horizontal rotation of the gyro is not followed by a weight loss on the pivot point.

   

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The linear vertical bearing rose on the spring as precession began and only for a brief moment. I would like to see an experiment showing how the transition of COG functions and flows.

So, applying a force doesn't always create an equal and opposite opposing force. Sometimes, the opposing force is normal to but not equal to the applied force.

It does sound a bit like electromagnetism  :)

 ;D Kirchhoff vs. Faraday - Newton vs. Laithwaite

Sounds like a discussion to avoid  ;)


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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   
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In the above video, the reason the two inclined disks stop turning is given right when they are first turned on.

When the two are on, they show a preference for CCW spin. But when he turns on the bottom motor, it is going CW. That will stop the two top disks from turning because they now have to fight against the bottom direction. If he reversed the wires on the bottom motor to make it turn CCW, he should see a better overall effect. The vibrations are normal since his two disks are most likely not perfectly balanced on their axis.

wattsup


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I found the information on the mysterious pendulum effects during a solar eclipse.  

The excerpt below is from this NASA link:    

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/1999/ast06aug99_1/



Quote
An Abrupt Excursion in the Plane: What Allais Published

In a marathon experiment, Maurice Allais released a Foucault pendulum every 14 minutes - for 30 days and nights -without missing a data point. He recorded the direction of rotation (in degrees) at his Paris laboratory. This energetic show of human endurance happened to overlap with the 1954 solar eclipse. During the eclipse, the pendulum took an unexpected turn, changing its angle of rotation by 13.5 degrees.

Left: Maurice Allais (1911 - ) won the Nobel Prize in Economics in 1988. He stated, "All my researches in theoretical and applied physics which, at first sight, appear to be remote from my main activity as an economist, have, in reality, enriched me with valuable experience."

Both before and after the eclipse, the pendulum experienced normal rotation (Foucault effect of 0.19 degrees/minute). This 13.5-degree excursion in the angular plane persisted throughout the length of the eclipse, a total of 2.5 hours of observations. Allais got similar results when he later repeated the experiment during a solar eclipse in 1959.


EM




PS.  I watched video #7  from the link that exnihiloest posted above.        It appears the gyro loses weight when it is precessing, it is out of balance by about 2 kg as he shows in the video.   So the gyro no only shifts its weight to the pivot but drops in weight a bit as well.  !    Antigravity ?    
video #8 , which I tried to analyze before definitely shows the gyro is lighter.   The precession speed is very slow, so that's not the answer, it has to lose weight!
« Last Edit: 2012-05-31, 20:10:50 by EMdevices »
   
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The linear vertical bearing rose on the spring as precession began and only for a brief moment. I would like to see an experiment showing how the transition of COG functions and flows.
So, applying a force doesn't always create an equal and opposite opposing force.

Action/reaction applies: the vertical force is needed to fight the inertia until the balance is obtained, otherwise we wouldn't need force. Newton's second law.

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Sometimes, the opposing force is normal to but not equal to the applied force.

When the force is normal, it is not an opposing force. The action/reaction still applies but elsewhere or in another way, without contradicting the conservation of energy and momentum (Lorentz force, for example). 

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It does sound a bit like electromagnetism  :)

Laithwaite himself in a paper makes a parallel between precession and electromagnetism, and ask the interesting question of what is the equivalent of electromagnetic waves in the mechanical case. Unfortunately, he is not synthetic, his parallel between the mechanical and electromagnetic quantities remains fuzzy. I think it is a point to clear, because it is a promising method for analysing.

Quote
;D Kirchhoff vs. Faraday - Newton vs. Laithwaite

Sounds like a discussion to avoid  ;)

Kirchhoff: which force?
Newton vs. Laithwaite: not yet proved, it's the open question here, not to avoid  :).

   
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It appears the gyro loses weight when it is precessing, it is out of balance by about 2 kg as he shows in the video.   So the gyro no only shifts its weight to the pivot but drops in weight a bit as well.  !    Antigravity ?    
...

It is the weakest Laithwaite's point.
Torques can give the illusion of weight loss. Laithwaite has never publicly weighed gyros on a scale, what would be the only acceptable proof.
I did it and I'm not alone, and the result is: gyro weight loss cannot be measured.

I'm sure that Laithwaite is by far intelligent enough to understand that a weight loss measurement would be the only real proof of his underlying ideas. As I can't imagine that he didn't lead these measurements, due to his intellectual curiosity, I'm forced to conclude that he did it but was unable to measure any weight loss, as all other experimenters.

   
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