"Friction Heater" by Gabriel

ion · 2013.01.22, 14:44:10

Your Kill A Watt meter should read real power used on the KWH setting (the KWh totalizer).

Apparent power will be read on the VA setting if your meter has one. Most KILL A WATT meters have this. This is a real time measurement, not totalizer.

To double check I am running a test with a large AC capacitor of 120 uF (118.8 uF measured) and am using my Kill A Watt meter to log real power.

Reactance at 60 Hz. is 22.328 Ohms

The current drawn is 6.150 Amps, Voltage is 122.8, power factor is zero, apparent power is 755.22 Watts

Real power is 3.9 Watts (dielectric loss as this is not an "ideal" capacitor). This loss can be modeled as a small resistor in series with the capacitor. We will be able to find the value of this resistor by the ratio of real power to apparent power. We will also be able to compute the leading current vs voltage angle.

I will run this for one hour and see what is read on the KWh totalizer. After 15 minutes it is still zero.

Edit: After 1 hour my KWh total is 0.003, proving these meters read and totalize real power not apparent power. Capacitor is 10 x10 x14 cm. and is still at room temperature.

Edit: After 2 hours KWh=0.006 Capacitor is still at room temperature. I suspect most of the loss is in the wire (slightly warm) attaching the capacitor to the meter.

Chet K · 2013.01.24, 02:24:08

Some very Raw Data

The device run was started at 90F Control [

500 watt resistive
all runs 0.1KWH input on EZ Killowatt meter = Same as device
oil volume 2 gals Type 304 SS vessel = Same as Device +30 lbs steel
Start 90F Stop 110 elapse time 5 min start 47 stop 66
start 110 stop 135 5 min 40 sec 66 91 [little time Prob]
Start 135 stop 160 6 min 30 sec 91 108
start 157 stop 187 7 min 15 sec 108 125
start 180 stop 206 6 min 50 sec 125 135
start 201 stop 231 5 min 40 sec 135 150
start 225 stop 260 7 min 10 sec 150 167
start 250 stop 283 8 min 15 sec

total temp rise 197 F total temp rise 120 F
total input 0.8 KWH Total input 0.8 KWH
total time 51 min Total time 97 min
Ambient Temp 54F Ambient Temp 36 F

Chet K · 2013.01.24, 02:46:09

Comments from Control Guy [Me]

we ran this very rushed test to establish some comfort with technique and materials involved
as well as any little issues that might arise

*Ambient Temp and input power of control not equal with device run [to be corrected manana ]
Device runs at 1300 watts to start [cold oil] goes down to 8-850 at op temp [has been down to 500 Watts in some testing]
I ran one 500 watt immersion heater[control run] ,will play with another 500 for 1000 watt total tomorrow.

also I had to run outside do to "smelly oil" [also correct Manana]

*Device input to be monitered and noted at regular intervals during run .
device start temp and control start temp to be "same".

It has been reccomended by those that know better to run in a 30 gal Drum of water,
Gabriel is going to check availability of "drum" manana.

Comments welcome
[remember I can't be fired [Yet}

thx
Chet

Gabriel · 2013.01.24, 03:38:43

So after tracking the Watts drop over Temp rise and Time,
I ran the Heat core for 0.300 KWh non stop. Started at 146F with that VA @ 1470 and Watts @ 1255 give or take a few.
Ended run @ 205F, VA @ 1155, and Watts @ 929 give or take a few. Time elapsed was around 16 min.
The watts drop is more rapid after 180F. @ 250F to 280F I have seen the watts as low as 500.
This all depends on how the Core is setup to run. If I wanted to I could make it run @ 250 watts but at the price of losing temp rise over time.
Now after getting more then one email from a friend about running run caps inline with this motor I have, I am forced to give it a try. He claims it will make it run on less inline AMPs thus lowering the watts being used. I don't know much about all this but its worth trying and its something I can do at my shop.

Thank you
Gabriel

PhysicsProf · 2013.01.24, 03:50:17

GReat to have quantitative results in this arena! Thanks ION, Gabriel and Chet.

A few comments, questions follow:

Quote from: ION on 2013.01.22, 14:44:10
Your Kill A Watt meter should read real power used on the KWH setting (the KWh totalizer).
....

Edit: After 1 hour my KWh total is 0.003, proving these meters read and totalize real power not apparent power. Capacitor is 10 x10 x14 cm. and is still at room temperature.

Edit: After 2 hours KWh=0.006 Capacitor is still at room temperature. I suspect most of the loss is in the wire (slightly warm) attaching the capacitor to the meter.

ION -- very informative. What would happen to the V-A versus true Power if you "drove" a big inductor instead of a cap?
And -- can a load ever "trick" a residential meter, so that the true power consumed is actually more than the meter measures? (NOT that I want to do this! I don't, but would avoid a pitfall.)

Also -- Question: how do you measure 0.003 KWh (3 Watt-hour) with a Kill A Watt meter? mine only goes to 0.01 (10 Watt-hour) precision.

PhysicsProf · 2013.01.24, 04:09:18

Chet and Oilpiggy --

Let me start with this observation -

Quote from: Oilpiggy on 2013.01.24, 03:38:43
So after tracking the Watts drop over Temp rise and Time,
I ran the Heat core for 0.300 KWh non stop. Started at 146F with that VA @ 1470 and Watts @ 1255 give or take a few.
Ended run @ 205F, VA @ 1155, and Watts @ 929 give or take a few. Time elapsed was around 16 min.
The watts drop is more rapid after 180F. @ 250F to 280F I have seen the watts as low as 500.
This all depends on how the Core is setup to run. If I wanted to I could make it run @ 250 watts but at the price of losing temp rise over time.
Now after getting more then one email from a friend about running run caps inline with this motor I have, I am forced to give it a try. He claims it will make it run on less inline AMPs thus lowering the watts being used. I don't know much about all this but its worth trying and its something I can do at my shop.

Thank you
Gabriel

It looks like you're seeing an effect correlated with the decreased viscosity of the oil as the temp rises -- in essence, less "friction" as the oil viscosity decreases. Makes sense I think.

The really interesting effect is seen in your data posted by Chet above, where we see greater increase in Temp (what I call "Delta-T") for the SAME INPUT ENERGY = 0.01 KWh, as the oil temp rises. This may be due to some change in the specific heat of the oil, but I don't think so.

More data should help sort this out.

No conclusions reached yet, except that the data from Oilpiggy's device are interesting!

Here are a few notes on the data so far:

Some very Raw Data 5W 40 oil ambient start 54F

The device run was started at 90F Control [ Roll Eyes 500 watt resistive immersion heater
all runs 0.1KWH input on EZ Killowatt meter = Same as device
oil volume 2 gals Type 304 SS vessel = Same as Device +30 lbs steel [for device internals]
Delta-T Delta-T
Start 90F Stop 110 20F elapse time 5 min start 47 stop 66 19F
start 110 stop 135 25F 5 min 40 sec 66 91 25F [little time issue here [long run]
Start 135 stop 160 25F 6 min 30 sec 91 108 27F
start 157 stop 187 30F 7 min 15 sec 108 125 17F
start 180 stop 206 26F 6 min 50 sec 125 135 10F 15 minutes
start 201 stop 231 30F 5 min 40 sec 135 150 15F 15 minutes
start 225 stop 260 35F 7 min 10 sec 150 167 17F 13 minutes
start 250 stop 283 33F 8 min 15 sec

total temp rise 197 F total temp rise 120 F
total input 0.8 KWH Total input 0.8 KWH
total time 51 min Total time 97 min
Ambient Temp 54F Ambient Temp 36 F

-- much higher average rise in Temp (197F versus 120 F) for the same quantity of oil; but variations in insulation etc. probably a factor(s).

The control needs to duplicate the test device as well as possible (insulation, fins or no fins on the container, etc.)

Please carry on! we learn through the process of acquiring and analyzing data.

Gabriel · 2013.01.24, 04:38:05

Hey guys.... what would be a Electric meter at a cheap price.... saving for my new Lathe

With that being said I only like to buy a tool one time so not cheap in quality just in price

It would be nice to have my cake and eat it too.
I found a metal trash can on line at my local ACE, how many gallons of water are we going to use for the test?

PhysicsProf · 2013.01.24, 05:12:15

Quote from: Oilpiggy on 2013.01.24, 04:38:05
Hey guys.... what would be a Electric meter at a cheap price.... saving for my new Lathe With that being said I only like to buy a tool one time so not cheap in quality just in price
It would be nice to have my cake and eat it too.
I found a metal trash can on line at my local ACE, how many gallons of water are we going to use for the test?

1. I like the intertek meter: http://www.ebay.com/itm/US-Plug-Power-Energy-Watt-Volt-Amps-Meter-LCD-Monitor-Analyzer-Overload-Display-/230882467728?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item35c1aadf90

for about $15.89 with free shipping.

Gives 3 digits past the decimal for KW-h, that is, it reads to watt-hours.

I've checked this against the Kill-a-Watt meter several times, and the agreement is within about 6%. My Intertek meter turns to 0.010 KWh first, then the Kill-a-watt meter turns to 0.01 KWh shortly thereafter (is what I've observed repeatedly).

If one is looking for an effect of say 115% or so, this meter gives a good indication. (I have other power meters for use if one wants more accuracy for further checking; the cost goes up.)
I've used the WANF power meter also; but it sometimes gives "screwy" readings and I don't trust it as much as the Intertek (and the Kill-a-Watt with lower precision).

2. Testing with the device in a WATER bath is a great idea. Allows one to use standard calorimetric methods,
Q = 4.19 * (mass of water bath) * (rise in temp, deg-C)
as I've before explained in more detail. Even if you are not measuring the heat output (loss) in heating the motor, you get a very good idea of the power delivered to the water! So this is a conservative approach, very good approach IMO.
I've worked with water calorimetry for years.

BEST wishes! looking forward to further results.

ion · 2013.01.24, 13:50:49

Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2013.01.24, 03:50:17
GReat to have quantitative results in this arena! Thanks ION, Gabriel and Chet.

A few comments, questions follow:

ION -- very informative. What would happen to the V-A versus true Power if you "drove" a big inductor instead of a cap?
And -- can a load ever "trick" a residential meter, so that the true power consumed is actually more than the meter measures? (NOT that I want to do this! I don't, but would avoid a pitfall.)

Also -- Question: how do you measure 0.003 KWh (3 Watt-hour) with a Kill A Watt meter? mine only goes to 0.01 (10 Watt-hour) precision.

A large well designed inductor would produce the same result i.e. near pure reactive load, but in this case current would lag voltage by 90 degrees instead of leading as in the case of the capacitor.

To my knowledge, you cannot "get at or make use of" reactive power to do any "work". As soon as you try, you wind up producing a resistive component, which will be metered. I have developed some interesting circuitry to attempt to get around this. No success thus far, but I will share when my research is complete.

I used the Intertek (no model # but as shown in your link) power meter, and compared it to the Kill A Watt P4400 (without cost entry). Thus far they both seem to be similar and satisfactory, except the Intertek has greater resolution on some measured parameters and allows cost entry.

Note: When starting a new test you need to reset the Intertek with the small recessed button or it will remember elapsed kW from a prior test. Powering the meter off does not reset the meter, as it has a small internal battery backup. Sometimes this "memory" can be a handy feature e.g. running a test over days when the power might be interrupted momentarily.

I also fully agree that the calorimetric method for testing is best and can yield the accuracy we are looking for, however, including the motor dissipation becomes difficult, which is why I suggested the "small room" method, which is a strictly comparative method.

http://www.tutelman.com/golf/measure/precision.php

Chet K · 2013.01.24, 15:51:50

Gabriel
A suggestion on Oil for todays test ,you had said "vegetable" ? lets try to keep it the same.
For container....
Laundry tub?
Tubberware storage tub?
Something perhaps the wife has things squirreled away in the attic [Aunt tilly's old hanky collection container]?

At least 20 gals should be minimum?[the more the merrier]

I hate buying things I don't need to do tests.

True we have to be safe ,[plastic containers can get soft and"yield/fold" at higher temp]
However I have found a few well placed support Boards here and there fix that issue.[temp dependent of course] also we can run tests at "safer" temps a few times?

The biggest issue is your Cooling fins or my "lack there of".
can you post a still of the container fin arrangement? and brief dimension info on fin size and space?

Suggestions from anyone that can read here for Stifling the heat fins effect are more than welcome.

Thx
Chet

PS
ION
Thank you for your help and links!

ion · 2013.01.24, 16:02:59

Those plastic tubs used to cool 1/4 or 1/2 keg aluminum beer barrels should be close to what you need. Plus you have another use when the weather warms up.

PhysicsProf · 2013.01.24, 18:26:13

Thanks for replies, ION -- I see we agree.

Quote from: ION on 2013.01.24, 16:02:59
Those plastic tubs used to cool 1/4 or 1/2 keg aluminum beer barrels should be close to what you need. Plus you have another use when the weather warms up.

LOL

Chet K · 2013.01.25, 00:59:10

OK
So I just came in a little early tonight to clean up last nights mess, the test was spur of the moment
Tings got a little sloppy

Sorry about the burnt Oil smell in here Poynt and Peterae it should go away in a couple years!

AnyHoo
Tonights event will be "water" Calorimetry [a sanctioned "Boil Off" governed by the house rules]

Both manifolds will be Immersed in 15 gals of 54F water. [stirred feverishly during run?]
The big "G" will be running his Wee Beasty with a start temp of 90 F [just like last night]
The run will be nonstop to Redline [0.8 KWH] Input measurements will be monitered and noted at every 10 degree "oil vessel Temp" rise.all thru his EZ Killowatt Meter.

The underDog [me} will be running Two old school 500 watt resistive heaters thru an EZ [Maybe the wanf?} Killowatt meter.

WE do have some concerns regarding the Shut down? We will both have BooKoo Heat stored at that point far in excess of our water temp.

Seems like a cool down could be part of test protocol?
Or Flip em and Rip em? [Shut off and remove pronto]

Comments Please Approx 2hrs to run time.

Thx
Chet

PhysicsProf · 2013.01.25, 02:20:50

Quote from: ramset on 2013.01.25, 00:59:10
...
Tonights event will be "water" Calorimetry [a sanctioned "Boil Off" governed by the house rules]

Both manifolds will be Immersed in 15 gals of 54F water. [stirred feverishly during run?]
The big "G" will be running his Wee Beasty with a start temp of 90 F [just like last night]
The run will be nonstop to Redline [0.8 KWH] Input measurements will be monitered and noted at every 10 degree "oil vessel Temp" rise.all thru his EZ Killowatt Meter.

The underDog [me} will be running Two old school 500 watt resistive heaters thru an EZ [Maybe the wanf?} Killowatt meter.

WE do have some concerns regarding the Shut down? We will both have BooKoo Heat stored at that point far in excess of our water temp.

Seems like a cool down could be part of test protocol?
Or Flip em and Rip em? [Shut off and remove pronto]

Comments Please Approx 2hrs to run time.

Thx
Chet

The WANF meter should be fine (accuracy for KWh's within about 6% from my experience with it) for these tests -- fine with immersion (resistive) heaters.

With FIFTEEN gallons of water and 0.8 KWh of input energy, there should be no problems that I can foresee.
Let's look at the expected heat rise, with "no losses" -- one watt-hr = 3600J, 1 KWh = 3.6MJoules.

Q = 0.8KWh = 0.8 * 3.6MJ = 2.9 MJ
Now the equation I have in memory from doing calorimetry with water is

Q (heat) = 4.19 * mass of h2o in grams * (Temp change in deg-C), then the answer is in Joules
Gotta run for a little while, will come back with the equation in "strange units" -- gallons and deg-F...

Chet K · 2013.01.25, 02:39:48

Oy Vey
House rules ...........
Metric

Sorry Forgot

I keep trying to change the world {and the rules].

Just in the NickoTeen Steve!!

About ten minutes to "gentlemen start your Buckets"

Chet K · 2013.01.25, 03:19:37

Change do to overflow issue new size water displacement
45 liters
Management apologizes for any inconvenience caused by this last minute change

PhysicsProf · 2013.01.25, 03:35:57

OK, you measure the Temp-rise in deg-F and calculate the energy put into the water (Q) using this equation:

Qout (in Joules) = 4.19 * (gallons H2O*3785g/gallon) * (temp-rise in deg-F *5/9degC/deg-F)

. = 8811 * (#gallons) * (Temp-rise in deg-F)

It would be easier if you have a button on your temperature probe to measure deg-C rather than deg-F.

I.e., raising 2 gallons of water 1 deg-F implies you put in about 17621 J = 17.62 KJ.
and compare with

Qin (in KJoules) = (measured KWh) * 3600 since 1 KWh = 3600 KJoules, so 0.8 KWh = 2900 KJ.

(unless I made some error in converting units... easy to do...)

PhysicsProf · 2013.01.25, 03:38:12

While I was typing:

Quote from: ramset on 2013.01.25, 03:19:37

Change do to overflow issue new size water displacement
45 liters
Management apologizes for any inconvenience caused by this last minute change

OK, this is metric which is easier for many (including me) -- 45 liters = 45,000 g = 45Kg of water.
Now if you have a "Deg-C" button on your temp probe, pls use that! and we're all set, Chet!

Chet K · 2013.01.25, 04:28:28

Of course

Control oil/Heat vessel 304 SS contains 2 gal 30 w motor oil ** no cooling fins on oil Vessel
Control water manifold "plastic" Contains 45 liters water [beer cooler thingy]
2 - 500 Watt immersion heaters
Wanf Killowatt meter

Open top run ,constant hand stirring through out test [both Oil and water]

45 liters
Start
Start TEMP water 7 C Oil 23.6 C Ambient 14 C
0.1 KWH 8C 35C
0.2 10.1 43C
0.3 13 53
0.4 13.7 58
0,5 13.9 58.6
0.6 14.1 62.1
0.7 15.3 63
0.8 16.6 63.8

Ambient Temp 14C
total run time 50 minutes
total input 0.8 KWH
watt draw 978 W

Gabriel · 2013.01.25, 05:02:40

Test results,

45 liters in a 55 gallon drum
Open top run ,constant hand stirring through out test ( just water only )

0.100 KWH per set
watts water temp
0.1 1324 9.444 C
0.2 1266 10.555 C
0.3 1278 12.222 C
0.4 1234 13.333 C
0,5 1226 14.444 C
0.6 1216 16.111 C
0.7 1204 17.222 C
0.8 1225 18.888 C

water start temp 7.222 C
water end temp 18.888 C
Ambient air start temp 11.111 C
Ambient air end temp 12.222
Oil start temp 32.222
Oil end temp 38.333
total run time 37.40 minutes
total input 0.8 KWH
watt draw start 1440 W
watt draw end 1225 W

PhysicsProf · 2013.01.25, 05:08:20

Quote from: ramset on 2013.01.25, 04:28:28
Of course

Control oil/Heat vessel 304 SS contains 2 gal 30 w motor oil ** no cooling fins on oil Vessel
Control water manifold "plastic" Contains 45 liters water [beer cooler thingy]
2 - 500 Watt immersion heaters
Wanf Killowatt meter

45 liters
Start
Start TEMP water 7 C Oil 23.6 C Ambient 14 C
0.1 KWH 8C 35C
0.2 10.1 43C
0.3 13 53
0.4 13.7 58
0,5 13.9 58.6
0.6 14.1 62.1
0.7 15.3 63
0.8 16.6 63.8

Ambient Temp 14C
total run time 50 minutes
total input 0.8 KWH
watt draw 978 W

OK -- thanks for the data, Chet! Let's look just at the water-calorimetry part for starters, see how we do.
0.8 KWh input energy = 2900 KJ.

Output heat picked up by the water:

Q = 4.19 * 45,000g (H2O) * (16.6 - 7)C -4.19*45kg *9.6DegC = 1810KJ output to water only.

The efficiency just to the water is 1810/2900 = 62%, which is reasonable and a good start!

Perhaps fins on the oil vessel would be good... But a comparison with the Gabriel device can be made also!

Gabriel · 2013.01.25, 05:19:08

Chet you should do the same test but with out the oil. Put your heaters in the water and see what the out come would be.
Just a thought.....

PhysicsProf · 2013.01.25, 05:28:33

Good point, Oilpiggy -- I've done many of these calorimetry tests with the immersion heaters directly in the water, and find that when the vessel is well-insulated, I get Eout/Ein = efficiency = 0.94-0.99, very repeatably. This makes an excellent control run and test of the meters etc.

Now to look at Oilpiggy's data -- thanks for posting!

Quote from: Oilpiggy on 2013.01.25, 05:02:40
Test results,

45 liters in a 55 gallon drum
Open top run ,constant hand stirring through out test ( just water only )

[good!]

0.100 KWH per set
watts water temp
0.1 1324 9.444 C
0.2 1266 10.555 C
0.3 1278 12.222 C
0.4 1234 13.333 C
0,5 1226 14.444 C
0.6 1216 16.111 C
0.7 1204 17.222 C
0.8 1225 18.888 C

water start temp 7.222 C
water end temp 18.888 C
[temp rise 11.666 C]
Ambient air start temp 11.111 C
Ambient air end temp 12.222
Oil start temp 32.222
Oil end temp 38.333
total run time 37.40 minutes
total input 0.8 KWH
watt draw start 1440 W
watt draw end 1225 W

Again, Let's look just at the water-calorimetry part for starters, see how we do.
0.8 KWh input energy = 2900 KJ.

Output heat picked up by the water:

Q = 4.19 *45kg *11.7DegC = 2,206 KJ output to water only.

The efficiency just to the water is 2206/2900 = 76%, which is reasonable and a good start!

I suggest insulating the water-containing vessel, and a plastic vessel is better than metal.

How much oil did you use, Oilpiggy? One can then check on the Qoutput to the oil, which adds to the total Qoutput.

Gabriel · 2013.01.25, 05:41:53

The heat core was filled with 2 US gallons of 100% organic soy oil.

Chet K · 2013.01.25, 12:42:21

Well
I Passed out ......

Seems like the rest of the crew Too

Even Steve seems to have run out of lead in his pencil?

So Steve.....Whats the oil Q