The Rotary Transformer Project.

TinMan · 2013.03.03, 03:40:48

The first graph is P/in with the generator open.
The second graph is with a 23.6 ohm load on the generator.

Magluvin · 2013.03.03, 03:46:18

Hmm, this could be done with a pulse motor setup. Its sorta like a multi pulsed input to an Orbo, but the core is axial not toroid.

Good stuff Tin

Mags

TinMan · 2013.03.03, 04:38:36

Quote from: Magluvin on 2013.03.03, 03:46:18
Hmm, this could be done with a pulse motor setup. Its sorta like a multi pulsed input to an Orbo, but the core is axial not toroid.

Good stuff Tin

Mags

Indeed it could-if set up right.
How it work's
Lets take two inductors(single wire wound, but just round ones as used in the ssg pulse motors)and face them at each other,with a 2mm gap between them.
We will call one the primary,and one the seconary.
Now if you send a current through the primary with the seconary close-we ofcourse get a backEMF,and the secondary will want tp move away from the primary(lenz force)
Now lets send a pulse of current through the primary-but with the seconary open.
Now we find that the secondary wants to be pulled toward the primary-due to both having steel core's (electromagnetic effect)

So what happens if we pulse the primary with a current,with the seconary open during this pulse-we get an attraction between the two,and no lenz force.
Now although the seconary was open,a magnetic field was still built up within the core.
What we do next is this-at the very same time the primary coil is switched off (become's open)we draw a current from the secondary coil as the magnetic field is collapsing around it.
We then once again get an attraction-but this time it is the primary coil being attracted to the secondary.

The end result is this-we can draw a current from the seconary,and at the very same time create a magnetic field that produces rotational force.

We created a curret without the lenz force effect.
We created an electromagnet without inputing any current into the coil-but by removing the current from the coil.
And we also reduce the P/in-as can be seen in the video bellow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6xRcSkPYn4

Itsu · 2013.03.03, 11:49:47

Impressive results Tinman.

I have nothing with motors, but nonetheless i can understand what is happening.

Great video series......

Regards Itsu

poynt99 · 2013.03.03, 15:00:33

I suspect you'll be approaching an efficiency of 90% or so, real soon.

TinMan · 2013.03.03, 15:33:02

Quote from: poynt99 on 2013.03.03, 15:00:33
I suspect you'll be approaching an efficiency of 90% or so, real soon.

What give's you an indication of that poynt99 ?

poynt99 · 2013.03.03, 15:54:51

Quote from: tinman on 2013.03.03, 15:33:02
What give's you an indication of that poynt99 ?

The efficiency to this point has been low as per your graphs. The latest video demonstrates what appears to be an increase in efficiency. I suspect as time goes on, n will approach 100%.

TinMan · 2013.03.03, 16:03:30

Quote from: poynt99 on 2013.03.03, 15:54:51
The efficiency to this point has been low as per your graphs. The latest video demonstrates what appears to be an increase in efficiency. I suspect as time goes on, n will approach 100%.

Ah -ok poynt99,i think there is a misunderstanding here.
The graphs you see are of two identical -off the shelf pm motors.
One is being used as a generator,the other the prime mover.
This is being done so as ION can help me work out the efficiency of the generator.
Once we have worked this out,i will then hook the rotary transformer to the generator,and graph the performance in the same way.
We can then work out the efficiency of the rotary transformer ,as we will know the efficiency of the generator.

If you go back one page in the thread,you will see what we are up to.
But the graphs above are not with the rotary transformer-they are with a stock motor.

poynt99 · 2013.03.03, 16:17:33

OK, thanks for the explanation. My bad.

I do however believe that your transformer is less than 50% efficient without the secondary load, and will approach 90 or 100% as you tweak your added secondary(s).

ion · 2013.03.03, 16:25:39

Yes, the purpose of these tests is to characterize the motor / generator efficiencies by using two identical PM motors, shafts coupled.

Once efficiency at various RPM's and various loads are determined, we can divide the efficiency between the two devices so we know what our losses are.

Then one of the generators can be used as an electronic prony brake, as it will load the DUT according to the resistors it is loaded with.

This should be a fairly precise way to measure improvements in Tinmans rotary transformer project.

I doubt that the present motor generator setup will yield anything near 100% as we have losses attributed to each device.

TinMan · 2013.03.03, 16:37:26

Quote from: ION on 2013.03.03, 16:25:39
Yes, the purpose of these tests is to characterize the motor / generator efficiencies by using two identical PM motors, shafts coupled.

Once efficiency at various RPM's and various loads are determined, we can divide the efficiency between the two devices so we know what our losses are.

Then one of the generators can be used as an electronic prony brake, as it will load the DUT according to the resistors it is loaded with.

This should be a fairly precise way to measure improvements in Tinmans rotary transformer project.

I doubt that the present motor generator setup will yield anything near 100% as we have losses attributed to each device.

Hi ION
DO we have enough in those graphs to calculate efficiency of the generator?

Once we know the efficiency of the generator,we can the get the efficiency of the motor-although as a pair they will be way below 100%

If needed ,i can chart some more graph's with lower resistor values on the load.

ion · 2013.03.03, 19:29:33

Quote from: tinman on 2013.03.03, 16:37:26
Hi ION
DO we have enough in those graphs to calculate efficiency of the generator?

Once we know the efficiency of the generator,we can the get the efficiency of the motor-although as a pair they will be way below 100%

If needed ,i can chart some more graph's with lower resistor values on the load.

The efficiency would best be calculated with higher loading of the mo-gen test set. Right now the efficiency looks too low because the idle current is a big part of the throughput.

Something around a 10 ohm load would be better but still far below the ratings of the devices. The Y axis of your chart should be readjusted to 0 to 100 watts for this.

mbrownn · 2013.03.03, 23:23:53

Tinman, as an experiment try wrapping about 100 turns of heavy duty wire around the motor case. have this coil in series with the motor. you want as low a resistance as possible, less than an ohm. Think of it like this, you are pre-saturating the iron core using the same power as you use to power the motor. The motor and transformer effects require a certain level of core saturation and saturation, if we can apply extra saturation at little loss, hence very low resistance, we get more from the de-saturation.

Our losses are twofold

1 Ohmic

2 Iron

We cant do much about the iron loss but the more functions we get using the same core the higher the overall efficiency.

Stargate did this with permanent magnets to get the core operating on the right part of the saturation curve but of course with permanent magnets you cant switch them off to increase recovery in the pulses.

Chet K · 2013.03.04, 01:45:53

TM
I would just like to point out one observation.
your graph above has 22 hits since this AM ,i have never looked ,Steve is driving I doubt he looked
I think there are others looking that do not belong to this Freedom group?

?
Thx
Chet

TinMan · 2013.03.04, 02:05:46

Quote from: ramset on 2013.03.04, 01:45:53
TM
I would just like to point out one observation.
your graph above has 22 hits since this AM ,i have never looked ,Steve is driving I doubt he looked
I think there are others looking that do not belong to this Freedom group?

?
Thx
Chet

!! AGAIN ? !!

Well the only thing they will be seeing here at the moment is two ! off the shelf motors ! -one being calibrated as a generator.

But still.

Chet K · 2013.03.04, 02:13:41

I just want to make you aware that the agreement we have here is between "us" members.

If others are somehow coming in ??

I suggest at the very least a password change!!
Thx
Chet

TinMan · 2013.03.04, 02:26:59

Quote from: ramset on 2013.03.04, 02:13:41
I just want to make you aware that the agreement we have here is between "us" members.

If others are somehow coming in ??

I suggest at the very least a password change!!
Thx
Chet

We've been hacked ?
Just when you think it's safe to go back into the water.

poynt99 · 2013.03.04, 14:00:28

What do you mean Chet?

Chet K · 2013.03.04, 15:02:00

99
I will send an email.
thx
Chet

ion · 2013.03.05, 16:56:33

Attached is a photo of a special purpose motor generator test set just recently built for one of our customers.

It's purpose was to demonstrate loading and unloading of a motor, and detection / auto shutdown of unloaded system to save energy.

TinMan · 2013.03.05, 17:54:54

Quote from: ION on 2013.03.05, 16:56:33
Attached is a photo of a special purpose motor generator test set just recently built for one of our customers.

It's purpose was to demonstrate loading and unloading of a motor, and detection / auto shutdown of unloaded system to save energy.

Nice setup ION
Is this your handy work?

poynt99 · 2013.03.05, 19:04:23

Nice work ION.

Slider2732 · 2013.03.05, 20:09:34

Well I looked at the graphs only once...just now.
Perhaps the forum updates the view count on each page load ? has the software been upgraded recently and this is a previously unknown side effect ?
That would explain the 15 views of the suitcase generators above.
Edit - except 37 views to 26 views wouldn't equate out anyway.

The suitcase generator looks superb btw, like a demo unit for conferences or part of a 'bug out bag' for energy.

Nothing more to add, just that it's all intriguing with the setup and finding the correct values of the stock motors is something i'd have had no clue about before this thread.

ion · 2013.03.06, 00:57:31

This suitcase demonstrator was built by my son for a client. I was consultant to the job and supplied some parts.

Since we are doing the motor / generator tests here I thought it would be of interest.

I had previously tested a tandem motor generator and posted the results on this forum, but can't seem to find it right now.

I'll have to look in my archives.

TinMan · 2013.03.07, 02:22:47

Quote from: mbrownn on 2013.03.03, 23:23:53
Tinman, as an experiment try wrapping about 100 turns of heavy duty wire around the motor case. have this coil in series with the motor. you want as low a resistance as possible, less than an ohm. Think of it like this, you are pre-saturating the iron core using the same power as you use to power the motor. The motor and transformer effects require a certain level of core saturation and saturation, if we can apply extra saturation at little loss, hence very low resistance, we get more from the de-saturation.

Our losses are twofold

1 Ohmic

2 Iron

We cant do much about the iron loss but the more functions we get using the same core the higher the overall efficiency.

Stargate did this with permanent magnets to get the core operating on the right part of the saturation curve but of course with permanent magnets you cant switch them off to increase recovery in the pulses.

I may have to give this a try,or even remove the section of core between the two coils-just like the slots in the lockridge device.