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Author Topic: Displacement Current - Does it Exist?  (Read 100134 times)
Group: Experimentalist
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Putting capacitors in series will never prove that the magnetic field comes from a displacement current.

Either the capacitors have connecting wires, and then the ordinary currents in these wires will produce the magnetic field, or they are just plates, and even if they are infinitely thin and the current through them can be neglected, they are only equipotential and will therefore be of no use between the first and the last plate, so that we will no longer be in the approximation of the plane capacitor.


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Group: Tinkerer
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tExB=qr
Paper: physical interpretation of displacement current

   
Group: Experimentalist
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"There is no way now that the electron can move, so there is no electron conduction current through the capacitor. Here something very primitive happens. These electrons induce a positive charge onto the other side of the capacitor or they push the electrons on the other side of the capacitor plates away from them and pull the positive charges towards them such that opposite chargers are induced on either side of electron."

I agree. You don't need anything between the two plates for the charges of one plate to influence the other.

The coulombic influence does pass between plates as if it were the field of moving electrons, so we do have, in a way, coulomb/s crossing the gap between plates, which is called displacement current.



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"Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"
   
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Quote
"There is no way now that the electron can move, so there is no electron conduction current through the capacitor. Here something very primitive happens. These electrons induce a positive charge onto the other side of the capacitor or they push the electrons on the other side of the capacitor plates away from them and pull the positive charges towards them such that opposite chargers are induced on either side of electron."

I think this shows how little most understand about electricity and electric fields.

First, in a metal conductor only the negatively charged free electrons are mobile. The positive charges cannot move only the negative free electrons can move in a conductor. Conventional flow notation was proven wrong decades ago and it's complete nonsense. In Canada all children are taught electron flow notation in grade school and nobody believes (+) charges are flowing in a conductor.

Here is a better model of how charges and electricity actually work in reality.
http://amasci.com/redgreen.html
http://amasci.com/miscon/whatis.html

As well it boggles the mind that in this day and age so many still don't understand basic electricity, capacitors and what a displacement current is. I mean, it's so simple even a child could understand it.

1)Mobile free electrons with a (-) charge are forced onto the (-) capacitor plate. Only the (-) electrons can move not the (+) protons.

2)The (-) electric field from the excess of (-) electrons on the (-) plate repel any like (-) charges in the dielectric and opposite plate.

3)The opposite plate acquires a (+) charge because the (-) free electrons have been repelled from the plate by the (-) electric field of the (-) plate. No (+) charges moved into the opposite plate because they cannot move, they were already present and stationary in the metal. The opposite plate became (+) because some of the (-) free electrons were removed from it. See amasci red/green link above.

4)The (-) free electrons in the dielectric cannot flow as an electron current but they can be displaced a small amount towards the opposite plate. Any time we have many (-) charges displaced even a small amount the combined (-) electric field can repel any other nearby (-) electrons. The process of electric field induction is taught in every Canadian grade school. I find the fact that so many adults still don't understand electric field induction while most children do a little disturbing.

We could also talk about the actual forces present. One example which stuck in my mind was by A.D.Moore in his book on electrostatics. Moore calculated that if we separated all the (-) electrons and (+) protons or "charges" in a 1 cm cube of aluminum by a distance of 1 meter. The forces pulling the opposite charges together would be 32 million million million pounds. Roughly equivalent to the weight of a steel cube 76 miles x 76 miles x 76 miles in size. I memorized this example because it shows that electric fields can produce unimaginable forces in the right context.

AC


---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

We don't have an energy crisis we have an understanding crisis concerning what energy is and how it works... AC
   
Group: Experimentalist
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Posts: 1807
 
Quote
"There is no way now that the electron can move, so there is no electron conduction current through the capacitor. Here something very primitive happens. These electrons induce a positive charge onto the other side of the capacitor or they push the electrons on the other side of the capacitor plates away from them and pull the positive charges towards them such that opposite chargers are induced on either side of electron."

I think this shows how little most understand about electricity and electric fields.

First, in a metal conductor only the negatively charged free electrons are mobile.
...

Science has never said otherwise, since "electron conduction current" in the quote in bold is the current of free electrons in the conductor, yet it should be understood.

Thanks to AC, have we just learned that H+ ions do not move in an electrolyzed solution towards the negative electrode? Have we just learned that plasmas do not contain moving positive charges? Have we just learned that protons cannot be accelerated in a current by an electric field or deflected by a magnetic field, so that the LHC does not exist?
Of course, currents of positive charges also exist. And not only can it exist, but also a current of negative charges is equivalent to a current of positive charges in the opposite direction.

Neutral matter has as many positive as negative charges. It is therefore understood that a deficit of electrons allows the positive charges of the matter to be revealed, and that the displacement of this electron deficit is equivalent to a positive charge moving. The effects are the same, and this effect is the electric current.
The electron carries a charge, but a hole in a semiconductor also carries a charge and this one is positive. To say that the electron IS a charge is only a convenient shortcut. The electron carries a charge, but it is also a mass or a momentum.
So when we talk about charges, we must understand that we are talking about coulombs, and that the electron is only a particular case of charge carrier to which the notion of current is not reduced. Coulombs/seconds are an electric current no matter which particles give rise to it or how they do so.

A flow of electrons is an electric current, but an electric current is not a flow of electrons, this is the confusion that Amasci and AC make but not the scientists who already understood it in the 19th century. It turns out that the scientists were clever enough to assume that the direction of the current was that of the positive charge carriers. So the negative electrons move in the opposite direction of the current. All this is a pure convention, a secondary detail of no real interest, a choice, and certainly not an error.
As for the "induction" that everyone understands, it is still necessary to distinguish that of the coulombic influence at a distance between plates of a capacitor, perfectly expressed in the above quotation, from the induction by a variable current, even if in the second case it is also a result of the coulombic influence.

The interest of science is that it knows how to extract the general principles and formalise the laws of physics, going from the particular to the general, whereas Amasci does the exact opposite: reducing the electric current to particular cases, as we see here with the electron.
Beware of the pseudo-scientific discourse and images for the intellectually deficient that one finds on Amasci, which are to electromagnetism what the phlogiston of the XVIIth century is to thermodynamics: a ludicrous gibberish. If at the time it was still excusable, because science was only in its infancy, today it is no longer, it is disinformation and a return to obscurantism. The same people who would not even know the existence of the electron if scientists had not taught them, William Beaty included, claim to be teaching them what a charge or a current is, when it is clear that they have only a partial and regressive view of it and that nothing they know about it comes from logical and intelligible reasoning based on their own measurements, and which their formulation would allow to be verified quantitatively. If I asked them to prove to me that the electron exists and how much its charge is, these jackasses would be very annoyed, but not Millikan.



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"Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"
   

Sr. Member
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Posts: 487
I think this shows how little most understand about electricity and electric fields.

First, in a metal conductor only the negatively charged free electrons are mobile. The positive charges cannot move only the negative free electrons can move in a conductor. Conventional flow notation was proven wrong decades ago and it's complete nonsense. In Canada all children are taught electron flow notation in grade school and nobody believes (+) charges are flowing in a conductor.

Here is a better model of how charges and electricity actually work in reality.
http://amasci.com/redgreen.html
http://amasci.com/miscon/whatis.html

As well it boggles the mind that in this day and age so many still don't understand basic electricity, capacitors and what a displacement current is. I mean, it's so simple even a child could understand it.

1)Mobile free electrons with a (-) charge are forced onto the (-) capacitor plate. Only the (-) electrons can move not the (+) protons.

2)The (-) electric field from the excess of (-) electrons on the (-) plate repel any like (-) charges in the dielectric and opposite plate.

3)The opposite plate acquires a (+) charge because the (-) free electrons have been repelled from the plate by the (-) electric field of the (-) plate. No (+) charges moved into the opposite plate because they cannot move, they were already present and stationary in the metal. The opposite plate became (+) because some of the (-) free electrons were removed from it. See amasci red/green link above.

4)The (-) free electrons in the dielectric cannot flow as an electron current but they can be displaced a small amount towards the opposite plate. Any time we have many (-) charges displaced even a small amount the combined (-) electric field can repel any other nearby (-) electrons. The process of electric field induction is taught in every Canadian grade school. I find the fact that so many adults still don't understand electric field induction while most children do a little disturbing.

We could also talk about the actual forces present. One example which stuck in my mind was by A.D.Moore in his book on electrostatics. Moore calculated that if we separated all the (-) electrons and (+) protons or "charges" in a 1 cm cube of aluminum by a distance of 1 meter. The forces pulling the opposite charges together would be 32 million million million pounds. Roughly equivalent to the weight of a steel cube 76 miles x 76 miles x 76 miles in size. I memorized this example because it shows that electric fields can produce unimaginable forces in the right context.

AC

One implied prediction is that we would begin to see asymmetries start to form with steep-gradient discharges of large magnitude, depending on the polarity and material on either end of the arc


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"An overly-skeptical scientist might hastily conclude by scooping and analyzing a thousand buckets of ocean water that the ocean has no fish in it."
   
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Hakasays
Quote
One implied prediction is that we would begin to see asymmetries start to form with steep-gradient discharges of large magnitude, depending on the polarity and material on either end of the arc

Indeed, we do see asymmetries everywhere and electrons are obviously the only mobile charge carriers in solid conductors. When we start looking at specific field properties the negative charge carriers and there field properties become really important. For example, only the (-) electrode on an NE-2 neon bulb glows which is useful to determine the polarity of a HV electron current/field.

Did you know almost all the most successful FE inventors used electron flow notation?. They used electron flow notation and infinite element analysis almost exclusively like myself because conventional notation/lumped sum modelling is amateur and doesn't reflect reality.

For example, in some Figuera patents he labelled the (-) terminal as the "origin". Hubbard also claimed the polarity, voltage, frequency of the impulse to start his device must be correct or it wouldn't work. Coincidentally, only Hubbard knew how start his device. Different methodologies and perspectives can often yield better results.

It's no wonder most of the paid shills and trolls don't want anyone to start using electron flow notation, infinite element analysis or start thinking outside the box. They want good little sheeple all thinking and doing the same ordinary things so they can be controlled.

Here's a clue...
Suppose we wanted to drastically increase the charge density by magnitudes in one specific area of a solid material. We could always add more free (-) electrons because there mobile but we cannot add more (+) protons because there stationary within the material. Now ask yourself how we could utilize or capitalize on this specific property to produce asymmetries within a system. Don't think in terms of lumped sum elements that's for amateurs. Think in terms of a string of individual elements(infinite elements) each having specific properties but also interacting with each other and there surroundings.

AC



---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

We don't have an energy crisis we have an understanding crisis concerning what energy is and how it works... AC
   
Group: Experimentalist
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Posts: 1807
...When we start looking at specific field properties the negative charge carriers and there field properties become really important. For example, only the (-) electrode on an NE-2 neon bulb glows which is useful to determine the polarity of a HV electron current/field.
...

Nonsense. Negative charges are not more important than positive charges, the question is symmetrical. And you just proved yourself the opposite of what you say, without even realizing it. Because if it is on the side of the negative electrode that the neon bulb glows, it is therefore on the side of the positive charges of the neon, attracted to the negative electrode!


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"Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"
   
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Posts: 2391
Here is a good resource on neon's for the experimenters here...
https://www.giangrandi.ch/electronics/neon/neon.shtml

I have used neon's like the NE2 in my circuits for years as ionization detection/modulation devices.

For example, many building unique motors or generators with high turn coils may have HV or ionization control problems. I had such a problem building an Adams motor/generator variant. I was pulsing a blocking oscillator(self-oscillating joule thief) like so ( high frequency on, wait X time, high frequency off, wait X time). Then to limit/modulate the discharge voltage I used an NE2 as a coil ionization detector which partially grounded the transistor base through a resistor to limit the input current.

Here is another good link describing how PAGD (Pulsed Abnormal Glow Discharges) in neon/vacuum tubes can produce strange effects.
http://rexresearch.com/correa/correa.htm
These experimenters basically wrote the book on Autoelectronic Emissions and have decades of first hand experience. Not just flapping there gums about supposed textbook theory but decades of real experiments.

AC


---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

We don't have an energy crisis we have an understanding crisis concerning what energy is and how it works... AC
   
Group: Experimentalist
Hero Member
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Posts: 1807
The displacement currents do not create a magnetic field. Only a displacement of real charges can. I think I have said this before, but this recent paper explains why:
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1361-6404/ac8705



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"Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"
   

Jr. Member
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Posts: 89
The displacement currents do not create a magnetic field. Only a displacement of real charges can. I think I have said this before, but this recent paper explains why:
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1361-6404/ac8705
Now I understand why I did not get any voltage on the capacitor placed between the two solenoids.
   

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Group: Experimentalist
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Posts: 1807
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGN65lse5yE :-\

NASA had also carried out highly accurate tests and thought it had seen this thrust. But its most recent work invalidated this hypothesis. Experimental artefacts related to electrostatic forces in the environment or arc leakage were the likely cause of a (weak) thrust. NASA has abandoned this route to propulsion.

"No performance was observed from the NACAP under soft (1 torr) or hard (10–7 torr) vacuum
conditions. Figure 32 shows that NACAP performance rapidly falls to immeasurable levels as
the pressure is reduced. In hard vacuum even with potentials above 50 kV, there was no measurable
performance observed
."
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20040171466/downloads/20040171466.pdf


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"Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"
   
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