Tinman's split toroid experiments...

[PhysicsProf]

@Tinman, hope you don't mind if I start a thread about your split toroid, fascinating idea and tantalizing results so far:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_C1VC_-f3Z0

So at about 11.93 MHz, you see the signals from the two secondary coils are 180 degrees out of phase with each other, and somewhat more output power from the coil wound on the "upper half" of the toroid.  This is surprising (to me), and I think an innovative device worth further experimenting and consideration.

Congratulations!

You noted that the input current measurement, about zero or even negative at this frequency, was not meaningful.  Then you said you would add a current-sensing resistor to the input side (etc), in order to measure Pinput.  Have you done this yet??

I have a ferrite ring, 10 cm OD and 6.5 cm ID.  I was thinking that with two of these, the upper one could be wound just AS YOU DID with your upper-half toroid.  Then the other secondary and primary wound over BOTH of these rings.

Also, does one need iron or ferrite?  could rings with higher permeability be used?

I like your idea and hope for more experimental data from you on this!

[ion]

Good thinking outside the box with the split toroid.

In some ways this is similar to the Travhf core design but which has only a two turn cancelling secondary.

[TinMan]

Hi PhysicsProf

I had actually forgotten about this device. This was built just a week before we had to shift house,and along with shifting house,i started a new job. So amongst all the mayhem,i just forgot all about it.

The reason i said that the negative current reading meant nothing,is that i don't think that meter would have been giving an accurate reading at that frequency.The specs on the meter are +/- 5% at 10KHz-so i don't put my trust in the meters at those frequencies. But i guess it could have just as easily read a positive current?.
The core was terrable aswell-made from plastic steel putty. I sure would like to be able to cast a metglass core with the same config,and try that.Two ferrite toroid's might work just fine,but iron wouldn't be so good at high frequencies.

The one thing it seem to tell me,was that there  are frequency ranges where the magnetic field seems to become more concentrated toward the center of the core.
Now there is one thing i would like to know,that i haven't been able to work out.In a toroid,it is said that the magnetic field is mostly confined in the core. So which magnetic field? north or south?. If we have both,then how is a current produced?.


I'm glad you did start this post Steve,as now I'm going to find that thing,and do some more testing on it.
I never got around to putting a CSR on the input,and having a look on the scope,but when i find it,that will be the first order of business.

[PhysicsProf]

I'm glad you did start this post Steve,as now I'm going to find that thing,and do some more testing on it.
I never got around to putting a CSR on the input,and having a look on the scope,but when i find it,that will be the first order of business.

Great!  I think its a fun and informative device you have there.
We will learn something... even if COP>1 is elusive...

Now there is one thing i would like to know,that i haven't been able to work out.In a toroid,it is said that the magnetic field is mostly confined in the core. So which magnetic field? north or south?. If we have both,then how is a current produced?

Inside the toroid, the field lines are concentrated, forming a full circle; there is not beginning (say, north) or end (south).  It is the changing B-field strength that causes currents in the secondary

Outside the toroid, the field is near zero (they say; when the currents are at high-freq, I begin to wonder if some B-lines wander...)

Yeah, kinda weird... 

[Magluvin]

Now there is one thing i would like to know,that i haven't been able to work out.In a toroid,it is said that the magnetic field is mostly confined in the core. So which magnetic field? north or south?. If we have both,then how is a current produced?.

Once the fields of the primary expand from the windings, they propagate as shown below until the fields stop expanding, then most all the field is in the core, before being saturated that is.

So if you wanted to detect the field lines crossing over to the other side of the toroid, as shown below, then simply put 1 wire directly through the center of the toroid opening, staying away from the core and winding as much as possible. And what ever the direction of current through that wire, will coincide with how the field cuts the wire, right hand rule, and it will coincide with my N and S designations for the coil itself and the polarity of the fields that cross over the toroids open area. 

If you put a hall sensor in the toroid opening, facing upward, again a field measurement can be made and will coincide with my N and S designations shown below.

Granted, the density of the field in the opening while the field is expanding or contracting, will not be of the density of what is accumulated in the core. The field expansion and crossover happens fast. Like a snap. But never the less, every bit of the field developed by the primary that forms into complete loops in the core, passes through that doughnut hole.

So the test I described earlier in the other thread with the larger dia core and a smaller dia core inside the larger(shown below also) could validate some things. If the secondary that is only wound on the outer core is induced less to none compared to the sec wound on the inner core only, this would change the books supposedly.

Mags

[TinMan]

Hi Mags-good to have you here on this thread.

So a couple of basic questions first.

1- When operating in the MHz frequency ranges with AC,will resistors still work the same way for a load ,as they do in the low frequency ranges across an AC output-or do they have a speed limit? I am useing 1/2 watt carbon film resistors

2-My SG has its own math function(if you want to call it that)where as it can tell me the Vpp.Vrms,Vmax,Vmin-all that fruit.
My question is,when we send an 8 Vpp AC signal to an inductor with a CSR in series to get our current,once we have that current value,is it multiplied by the 8 VPP or the RMS value from the SG to get our P/in?.

[Magluvin]

Hi Mags-good to have you here on this thread.

So a couple of basic questions first.

1- When operating in the MHz frequency ranges with AC,will resistors still work the same way for a load ,as they do in the low frequency ranges across an AC output-or do they have a speed limit? I am useing 1/2 watt carbon film resistors

2-My SG has its own math function(if you want to call it that)where as it can tell me the Vpp.Vrms,Vmax,Vmin-all that fruit.
My question is,when we send an 8 Vpp AC signal to an inductor with a CSR in series to get our current,once we have that current value,is it multiplied by the 8 VPP or the RMS value from the SG to get our P/in?.

Hey brad

1  If it is a non inductive resistor, then the only inductance to worry of is in the leads of the resistor and the rest of the circuit. What I just read last night was that a non inductive resistor is just a carbon block, not a spiral carbon film. So the resistor should specify non-inductive to be sure.

2 p-p if you want peak power, RMS if you want Rms measurment.    When you say SG, do you mean scope?

Running late for work

Mags

[TinMan]

@ Mags
SG is my signal generator.

Thanks for the info on the resistors. I dont see any ringing across the resistors,only a nice clean sine wave

[Magluvin]

@ Mags
SG is my signal generator.

Oh, I get it now.  As you said, sg with math function. Never seen one.  lol, thats why I thought you were talking about the scope.

What interests me is why it is claimed that all the coils field is 'only' in the core    

What would it be that they dont want us to know?

And what would be the advantage of knowing this?

Think. If it were a rod core where the fields N and S escape the ends of the core and expand outward, then when the field collapses, where does it collapse to? Or even just a pulsed straight wire.

If the field from the coil gets developed in the core only, then when it collapses, how does the collapse induce the coil if all the field is trapped in the core? Where is the right hand rule?? Thats like saying we can have some windings(secondary, pickup) only close to the outer circumference of the toroid, like say an air core toroid coil that is a larger diameter than the iron based core, and it should get induced.  But we all know that there is not much if any field out there. But pass just 1 wire through the middle and wala, we have induction.   The main reason why the field is in the opening of the core is to get to the other side to be in complete loop in the core. The curvature of the toroid, or even the 90 deg turns of the Ecores guide the fields in the path toward the other side of the core, because it is attracted there and the N and S poles fields can be relaxed in the core where they like to be.  The iron enables like fields to be close to each other without all the repelling. But once out of the core, like fields repel each other and flower outward to loop back to the opposite pole which it is naturally attracted to. Solid metal cores will hold that field like Leedskalnin, but cores that are particle based have tiny air gaps allowing the filed to collapse when the source field is gone.  So a solid iron toroid or say closed core has to receive a reverse field in order to unlock that originally created field in the core.

So for AC, the core can be solid, and dc pulse should be non solid, or gapped so the field collapses before a new dc pulse, otherwise 1 pulse will charge the core and the next pulse will encounter saturation and little output after that.

Mags

[TinMan]

Oh, I get it now.  As you said, sg with math function. Never seen one.  lol, thats why I thought you were talking about the scope.

What interests me is why it is claimed that all the coils field is 'only' in the core    

What would it be that they dont want us to know?

And what would be the advantage of knowing this?

Think. If it were a rod core where the fields N and S escape the ends of the core and expand outward, then when the field collapses, where does it collapse to? Or even just a pulsed straight wire.

If the field from the coil gets developed in the core only, then when it collapses, how does the collapse induce the coil if all the field is trapped in the core? Where is the right hand rule?? Thats like saying we can have some windings(secondary, pickup) only close to the outer circumference of the toroid, like say an air core toroid coil that is a larger diameter than the iron based core, and it should get induced.  But we all know that there is not much if any field out there. But pass just 1 wire through the middle and wala, we have induction.   The main reason why the field is in the opening of the core is to get to the other side to be in complete loop in the core. The curvature of the toroid, or even the 90 deg turns of the Ecores guide the fields in the path toward the other side of the core, because it is attracted there and the N and S poles fields can be relaxed in the core where they like to be.  The iron enables like fields to be close to each other without all the repelling. But once out of the core, like fields repel each other and flower outward to loop back to the opposite pole which it is naturally attracted to. Solid metal cores will hold that field like Leedskalnin, but cores that are particle based have tiny air gaps allowing the filed to collapse when the source field is gone.  So a solid iron toroid or say closed core has to receive a reverse field in order to unlock that originally created field in the core.

So for AC, the core can be solid, and dc pulse should be non solid, or gapped so the field collapses before a new dc pulse, otherwise 1 pulse will charge the core and the next pulse will encounter saturation and little output after that.

Mags

Yes i agree,there are many questions to be answered about the torid transformer. My dad use to say that the torid is very powerful,when placed in the right situation., You may like my next video on the split core setup. Seems that i can load the winding that passes through the center of the toroid,and insted of the voltage across the resistor going down,it go's up,and no reflection seen on the CSR on the input?.

[Magluvin]

Cant wait! 

Mags

[TinMan]

I have done some more tweeking on the frequency,and seem to have found a range where it shows the best results.
The video explains it pretty much,so i will just post that here.The winding that passes through the middle of the core,reacts far different than that of the winding around the outer of the core.The output from the winding through the center of the core puts out a lot more power when the secondary is heavily loaded.There also seems to be no reflection shown on the P/in.
The more i load the two outputs,the more they compensate for the load-while P/in remains the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjHIBmj2Q3M

[TinMan]

@ Mags
Im lookin for a couple of ferrite rings of the right size to make the one you pictured second above.Then cast them in the steel putty,and wind the primary over the two cores. So im wondering what happens if the two secondaries are 180* out of phase with each other? What effect would that have on the input?.

[Magluvin]

@ Mags
Im lookin for a couple of ferrite rings of the right size to make the one you pictured second above.Then cast them in the steel putty,and wind the primary over the two cores. So im wondering what happens if the two secondaries are 180* out of phase with each other? What effect would that have on the input?.

Hey Brad

Look at the vid a bit. Im at lunch, so Ill study it after work.

I thought of the same thing using a large toroid core and a small one that fits inside the big one.  But my concern is that the metal putty, if not as magnetic as the cores themselves, may present leakage that will throw off testing data.

Unless the putty is densely infused with powdered iron till its I would say 90% powder 10% bonding epoxy, to come close to the cores magnetic abilities.   Or just make the core pieces, then all is equal.    I also thought making some iron wire cores with the thickened putty. Ive used Plasticoat primer to insulate the iron wire in other projects.

Note, when mixing in iron powder, have the epoxy already mixed with hardener then add powder. Otherwise the epoxy wont completely get mixed with the hardener part and some areas may never cure. Mixing is much harder with the powder, so mixing the epoxy first eliminates extra work.  Also it takes longer for the epoxy to cure with all the iron taking space and not allowing the chem reaction to happen in the normal amount of time due to lack of ability to heat up, compared to epoxy alone.

Be back later

Mags

[Magluvin]

I have some iron powder/particles I recover from our sand blaster and bead blaster at work. Picked up some epoxy. I came up with a simple solution for the toroid core inside of the larger core.

Im going to make a simple plastic mold to make 1 toroid then drill out the core for the 2 secondaries. Might try to use a stiff foam material to make the slots for the secondaries, then just pick out the foam instead of drilling.  Then after winding the secondaries, Ill press in a bit of putty into the gaps.

Mags

[Chet K]

OK
This will not be the proper place for this ,However it will have to do for now....

Spoke with Brad again this AM [PM his time] and he has had a motor running for 4 hours on nothing but a completely sealed chamber with water as the only fuel ,recycled over and over again ?

vids are coming and the working principle.....
[stupid simple]
Steve you will be needing that MOT after all [plus the magnetron]

More to come.
thx
Chet



Edit to remove Evolvingape comment

[Chet K]

Ok
Brad took this a bit further than the guy in the first Vid below,......and then combined the motor in the second vid to run off this
water phase/combustion event.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYc7I-XvmKA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4VJG8-9izQ

To make a long story short he is exploding water [and water only] in a sealed chamber using a magnetron from a microwave along with the Mot and a timed spark.
the same water is used over and over,no condensing chamber no heating ,just exploding water after he gets it to its stoichiometric state with the magnetron..................

he has it running a generator .
He will assist in a replication ,he is already building a bigger one.

I suppose a vid will be forth coming although he is reticent about making vids ATM.[trying to give that addiction up and stay focused on his work]

thx
Chet

[Centraflow]

What a great idea using a flywheel and a one way bearing and the water to HHO then fire and expand and then contract as it turns back to water again, so bringing back down the piston.

Very very nice and so simple

regards

Mike

[Chet K]

OK
Spoke with Brad this AM,He was sharing some of the mechanism involved in his new motor.

the magnetron is focused in some fashion onto a  piece of copper which has the water in close proximity .
there are opposiing magnetic fields also in close proximity and which also pull there respective charged elements towards them during this carefully orchestrated moment of Stoiciometric Mahem with an injection of ignition..............

he spoke of his last 4 hour nonstop run and watching the very cool flashes thru the clear super strong High density plastic housing which this small motor uses for a ""chamber"".

No I did not offer any words of caution [Micro What..... doing Micro Which.... ]

Brad is a big Boy With very Large Cahoonas.................

He said once again when he has more of it sorted he will assist in replications.

I told him I would call again in a few days

On another note
Rob [evolvingape]sent a vid of what he found to be the simplist workable Kelvin Dropper Video replication   for running the unit he is sending me to play with
here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQmAIo6JWMU

He especially liked the paper bits hanging on the side to show the charge building [visual aid]



Later
Chet

[Chet K]

http://waterarcresearch.blogspot.ch/

As you know Brad will  be releasing his Papp type Water engine on June 15 [if you were unaware now you know  ] ,He had no issues sharing the "how its done" and I feel the need to learn a bit more.as well as experiment.

Until Brad releases this keep the News to yourself ,it is "his" surprise after all...

AS I already mentioned We have one new member who can read here Grumage
and just for Clarity Duncan and Johan do not have access to this Freedom Energy board.

thx
Chet

[Chet K]

Tucker Leavitt has done a very nice and simple presentation
And has charted significant extra energy in his testing.   http://waterarcresearch.blogspot.ch/

Snip"
The results in Table 1 clearly indicate that water arc explosions liberate stored potential energy.  Looking at the last 3 columns of Table 1, it can be seen that the water explosion's kinetic energy was even greater than the pulse discharge's electrical energy in three of the eight shots displayed. These results are consistent with the findings reported in Graneau et al. (2000) and require that some sort of internal water energy is released during a water arc explosion
--
Snip"
So, if water explosions do in fact release energy, where does this energy come from? I can't yet give you a definitive answer, but I have a hunch that the energy of a water explosion comes from the reorganization of the water's hydrogen bonding network during the explosion process. Inelastic neutron scattering experiments have revealed the existence of two different kinds of hydrogen bonds in water, each bond with a different strength (Li and Ross, 1993). The "strong" and "weak" bonds have vibrational force constants of 32 meV and 24 meV, respectively, and exist in water in a strong-to-weak ratio of about 2:1 (Graneau, 1998). During an explosion event, forces associated with the high-current arc discharge tear the water into fog droplets. This consumes a certain amount of mechanical energy, which is stored as additional surface tension energy in the fog. However, the molecules in the fog droplets now have significantly fewer neighbors than they did in the bulk water (see my cheesy little diagram below) and can more easily reorient themselves into lower energy states. Thus, weak hydrogen bonds can reform into strong hydrogen bonds, and van der Waals attractions can collapse into weak hydrogen bonds. This bond reformation would, of course, release energy, and could conceivably supply the kinetic energy of a water explosion.
--------------------
This seems a very simple place to experiment and I believe as Johan 1955 stated ,this is the method of the Papp engine.

Johan had done similar testing To what Brad is building  a chamber which Contains all rhe energy and converts to rotational motion.

I suppose the Lthium additive will be good to play with also in this experiment
Thx
Chet

[Chet K]

Good News from Australia

I had not spoken with Brad much since he started his new job[14-16 hr days 6 days a week driving the big truck]

However We had a wonderful Chat today ...
He is onto his 3rd  design with his Water/Papp engine

Number 1]  has 416 hrs run time with no outside power other than the 7AH battery which is maintaining charge thru a loop back design.

Number2] Is a 1.1 liter gas motor modified to a one inch crank stroke [piston travel] which runs at
3-4000 RPM and makes 625 Watts ....however lubrication is an issue [cylinder piston interface]
so he is going to Turbine.....?

Number 3] is a 6 inch truck turbocharger looped back onto itself


I will add more info later {have a few other "jobs" which just came up]

[Centraflow]

Hi Chet

that No. 3 rings a bell, here is my design built by Aaron @ EF, the original ran on syng and ran an alternator, circa 1989

looking forward to seeing his

regards

Mike

[Chet K]

Mike
I get the feeling Brad is looping the turbo Too.... reusing the same water supply over and over.
I will be asking him this weekend about assistance in replicating his "Number one prototype" in a thread here.

I know we can get some replications going on for that ,it is a simple clear plexi tube with a magnetron a few coils and 20ml of water,which is then hooked up to a generator and back to the battery.

I cannot imagine a simplar settup for testing ?? and perhaps mixing in a few more ideas??

thx
Chet

[Grumage]

Dear Chet.

It was great to talk to you earlier on.

I have attached a sketch of what I think Tinman's Mk 1 engine looks like.  Close  

Cheers Graham.