Surprise: 2.5 kW device for sale in Kansas. Is this it?

[PhysicsProf]

 A claim of a self-running device - for sale - arises from a small town in Kansas.  MidTech claims a 2.5kW device, for $6500.  Lending credence -- they've been selling solar and wind devices for many years, have a real going company.

I listened to the entire interviews (over an hour) of Sterling with co-inventor Doug Myers -- found it intriguing.

  From PESWiki:  http://peswiki.com/index.php/Free_Energy_Blog:2014:01:14#Video_of_my_2_interviews_with_MidTech

"I would also like to thank Dustin Law for the countless hours involved in our new project. Without him it wouldn't have been completed." (Doug Myers on Facebook; Jan. 11, 2014; ~8 am EST)



{Sterling} Last night, I stayed up until 2 am working on attaching relevant images to my two interviews with Doug Myers of MidTech. So I only got 2 hours of sleep before having to get up to head to the airport for this trip to visit Brillouin... I didn't want to just post the audio. I hope you agree the effort was worth it.

There's a lot of great content. I was hoping to also have a PESN story up to accompany this, but that may have to wait.

    (YouTube; January 14, 2014)

Here are links from our recent coverage in case you've not seen those. The first one is a report of my second of two interviews.

    MidTech update - - There isn't any HHO involved in this technology. It has a motor and generator and battery, so from what I can tell it's in the QMoGen ballpark. The unit weighs 150-175 lbs. As long as the load is under 2.5 kW, it is load-following. The grid-tie hook-up for this device will be identical to hooking up a wind or solar system. (Free Energy Blog; January 12, 2014)

    MidTech setback - "We had a little electronic set back today on our black box. We have new components coming, but it will be about a week before we can get them, to fix it." (Free Energy Blog; January 12, 2014)

{from the video, I gather the problem is an overheating component. - Steve}

   
    Midtech Energy Black Box Power Station - On January 11, 2014, Doug Myers of Hutchinson, Kansas, USA, announced that his company, MidTech Energy Solutions LLC, has a 2.5 kW "black box" power system available for purchase for $6500, with a lead time of 2-3 weeks. He told me the interface is UL certified; and a grid-tie option is available. (PESWiki; January 12, 2014)

    New #1? - I'm building a feature page about a new technology I just found out about that just announced that their product is available for sale. I did an interview. UL certified interface. (Free Energy Blog; January 12, 2014)

              From the video, I gather the device involves a motor and a generator, with mechanical device (in a closed box) in between -- which is the "secret" part.
A battery to get it started.  Then it self runs...? 

Marathon electric motor.  4 foot tall x 18" x18" "black box".  2.5 KW continuous.
I live 4.5 hours by car from there -- may take a look...

Caveat -- they've applied for a patent...   Perhaps unwise, we'll see...

[PhysicsProf]

  I was impressed that this company is doing well in wind and solar energy already.  They know their stuff.
(Look at their Hummer! - from the vid)   The pictured motor is in their device.

Their website:  http://midtechenergysolutions.com/ 
Evidently their announcement of the new device was given at their facebook page on 11 January 2014.

[PhysicsProf]

  Interview notes - as Sterling writes

MidTech update - - There isn't any HHO involved in this technology. It has a motor and generator and battery, so from what I can tell it's in the QMoGen ballpark. The unit weighs 150-175 lbs. As long as the load is under 2.5 kW, it is load-following. The grid-tie hook-up for this device will be identical to hooking up a wind or solar system. (Free Energy Blog; January 12, 2014)

[PhysicsProf]

 
Its true that MidTech is waiting for a component in order to fix something on their working prototype.  Apparently there was an overheating problem.  (This seems an understandable glitch, given the nature of prototypes.)

I may be able to see the prototype working, by the end of the month.  What tests should I do?  I'm open for suggestions.  A few thoughts:

1.  Ideally I would be allowed to look inside, to see what batteries and large capacitors are in there.  Presumably just one battery to get it started -- how many Amp-hours is it?  Deep cycle or not?  What type of battery, lead-acid?

2.  I'd like to see it run drawing at 2 kW on the load -- I have a couple of small space heaters and can measure the power they are drawing during the test.  How long will it run 2,000 watts?
Consider (from http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=A0oG7mEsm9ZSch4AvBhXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzZDBlYWc1BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMgRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1NNRTI2Ml8x?qid=20090202214711AAvg3WF )

If the actual load is just 100W, we have this quick analysis:

Your actual load is 100W...
With no losses the current is 100W/12V = 8.33A
This means you need 8.33Ah capacity for each hour of running, with provisos as below.

WIth a 7Ah battery that implies 8.33A/7Ah = 0.84 hours
The nominal voltage of a 12V battery is 12.6V, but you will be lucky to have 12V at the inverter terminals.

Battery ratings..
The battery will be rated at the 10 or even 20 hour rate, so that is a current of 0.7A or 0.35A for a 7Ah battery. The current you are drawing is 10 times that, in reality too much for this battery. The battery capacity is derated considerably, so the implied 100W running time of 50 minutes becomes maybe less than half an hour.

In practice the losses due to the inverter must be added as part of the load. As this is a low load for an 800W inverter it would just be a stab in the dark to say what its losses are, unless you can measure the actual current drawn from the battery when running under that load. My feeling anything from a few watts to 150W losses. It could more than double the load. You could be down to 10 minutes if the battery doesn't get overheated. Batteries are also less capable in cold conditions. A 7Ah battery is more suitable for loads about 10W.

Get the drift? You need a larger battery. The load is more consistent with an 80Ah size deep cycle battery. This would run more like expected, up to 9h, perhaps somewhat less due to inverter losses.

So with a 1,000 W load, this is a real drain on a battery, but an 80Ah battery should theoretically last for about 9/10 = 0.9 h (less given inverter-type losses).  For 2000W, less than 1/2 hour running,  and this requires an 12V amazing battery to put out so much current!  Roughly speaking, the current draw would be at least 2000W/12V = 167 Amps.  Wow!  quite the battery... it should get hot.   Do you see my point?

So these basic tests -
A.  Can it run a 2kW load?
B.  For how long?

I think I can quickly rule out batteries as the source of power -- several hours of running at 2kW for example.
But perhaps I've overlooked something?  amazing batteries?  you tell me.
Remember, the box is just 4-feet tall x 18" x18"  (how many batteries can you cram in there anyway?)

3. They may allow me to look inside the "mechanical black box", to see the mechanism that connects the motor to the generator.
No doubt proprietary, and I will honor that.

4.  I would like to get a look at the output waveform using my oscilloscope with no load and with a 2kW load.

What other tests would your recommend?

[PhysicsProf]

Here is a photo of the device (outside).  I'd want to make sure there are no wires leading into it, e.g. up from the floor.

[PhysicsProf]

Test 5:  I will ask that they run the 2kW-load test with the door of the device opened, so that I can take temperature measurements of the various components as a function of time. I have a few IR probes.  I would like to see (for instance) how hot the battery gets...

Test 6:  Also, how noisy is it?  where does the noise come from?

[Slider2732]

I'm still laughing after seeing the Hummer. Unless it's an electric conversion, then doesn't that monstrous thing negate everything they stand for ?
Also, I wonder if they know that the Hummer was connected to the demise of the GM EV1.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0489037/synopsis
They could perhaps have that pointed out if you visit, if only in fun

Am listening to Sterlings interview with them now.

At 15 minutes in the video he says there are 3 smaller processes making 1 power output.
I gather that the guys are surprised there is so much interest.
They say it breaks no laws of physics.
In the 2nd phone interview he talks of a battery, to mechanical, back to battery. Also 2 rotating moving parts for the servicing. Isn't that rather similar to a ###### motor ?
Earlier, he said that they happened upon the technology.
Hmm, the more I listen to this and including the way he says it's "all mechanical and all electrical" it does sound like a Be*r*dini motor.

My theory is that the motor HV output is sent to a 120V down converter. People normally run directly to storage batteries and not a converter. No idea how it would become 2.5kW.

The battery goes to a drive circuit and powers the motor - stage 1
The motor output runs to a converter circuit - stage 2
Some output backfeeds through a 14V circuit to charge the battery - stage 3

Hopefully not just self sustaining until the battery fails, with being used and charged at the same time...which Sterling found with the South African device ?

With it being winter, i'd test with the 2x electric heaters that you were thinking of, a 1500W and a 1000W. We have 2 here that have displays on them, to show temperature, power level etc and that type would make it clear whether they were working or not. Best would be 2x brand new ones still in their boxes and all to be filmed.

Oh, I see you're featured in Sterlings report near the end Steve  


*Edit* I looked up the motor - 5kcp35knb057as on the Marathon website.
http://www.marathonelectric.com/MMPS/index.jsp
It's a 1/4W single phase AC motor, spinning at 1625rpm.

[PhysicsProf]

  Thanks for your input, Mark.
One thing that puzzles me -- why would they put an AC motor in there?  Seems a DC motor would be needed or at least prefered, running off the battery, to get the thing started.

[Chet K]

Quick update
@All
spoke with Tinman this am ,all is well ...his water motor has run 100 hrs now with 7 AH battery not loosing charge  and slight gain
His  larger prototype is almost finished and this will be shared very soon I am told !
@Graham
I asked about Chas Cambel contacts  he wiil ask Dansie for any he might have,.

Thx
Chet


PS
Will remove this in 24 hrs

[Grumage]

Dear Chet.




Cheers Graham.

[Centraflow]

Steven and all,

Been away for a few days with clients of my wife, driven nearly 2000km and full of a cold or flu. I have kept up with things here, but only on my phone.

I have been thinking about this and I can't find any reasoning to the claim, but hope it is right. On very short tests of using a 60ah battery as the electron collector in SMD, along with a different electrode setup, I can self run the system using an inverter connected to that battery.

The inverter is 12v-230vac, this then runs one of my 30v dc power supplies which runs the front end. Now this does not mean a lot at the moment apart from the battery seems to rise above its standing voltage of 12.6v to over 13v when running, and when switched off falls back to it's rest voltage.

As of yet I have not done all the power tests, input to output, and so may be just the battery size, but why would it show a rise in voltage when running and fall back when off? This is a good first indication of an excess :)but could be as I have said the large battery time will tell when I can use that battery again, or find another, as it was out of my car and now has been put back, and I do not have another.

It seems that the mode of operandum of the charge, ELF@2hz ac wave could be an added advantage apart from chemical change electron capture.

Will keep informed as time permits

regards

Mike

[PhysicsProf]

For the record, here are updates from Sterling:

by Sterling D. Allan
Pure Energy Systems News


As already mentioned, I had an awesome conversation with Doug Myers of MidTech on Wednesday. And today I talked to his electrical technician, Dustin Law, to get an update on where things are at presently.

Last week we posted a feature page about their generator which allegedly produces up to 2.5 kilowatts, without any solar, wind, or fuel required, producing no pollution. And they said the systems are available for $6500 USD.

Then, the next day, they announced that their electrical technician, Dustin, had found a component on their circuit board that was getting too hot and could effect the longevity of the system; so they were going to order parts to get that addressed before opening their product for sale.

On Wednesday, Doug told me that he was expecting those replacement parts to arrive on Friday. But today, Dustin said that the shipment had not arrived yet. He said he had anxiously awaited for it to arrive yesterday, but it never showed up.

Dustin said he expects it to arrive tomorrow (regular services by FedEx and UPS on MLK holiday), after which he will need about two hours to get everything hooked up. Then he will be running tests to make sure everything is operating properly, not overheating, responding to load changes properly, shutting off properly if the load goes beyond the limit of the generator, restarting properly.

When I talked to Doug on Wednesday, he said he had looked at our QMoGen page, and that their "Black Box" system definitely fits into that ballpark of devices. He said there is no hydroxy system, no water that can freeze. He expects that annual service of the device should be adequate, as the rotating components are engineered to operate continuously without any problem.

The "black box" portion is bolted shut primarily for safety, as that is where the rotating components are located, not to protect intellectual property. The cabinet includes a motor, generator, battery, circuitry, and wiring.

He said that they do modify both the motor and the generator, which are off-the shelf components.

So when we do our validation of this technology, we'll be able to look inside the black box. We'll be able to see that there is nothing hidden in the entire black cabinet. Everything is off-the-shelf stuff. So, really, once the system is up and running, producing 2.5 kW while in self-looped mode, and disconnected from the battery that got is started, even one minute of such operation will signify that their system works as claimed. But we'll want to run it for several hours anyway. We'll want to assess what happens when the load suddenly increases or decreases -- will there be any brown-out or spike on the other things plugged into the system?

Dustin will be checking for these things as well when he assesses the system on Monday after installing the replacement circuit components. He wants to be sure it's 100% ready to go before opening it up.

We (NEST) have several people lined up to be involved in the testing, including Steven E. Jones, Mike Waters, Chip Paul, myself. Steve has oscilloscopes, two 1000 W heaters, several IR-temperature reading devices (non-contact). We'll also have a private group coming in as well, with interest in bringing this to their customer base, so they will be there to make sure we ask all the rubber-hits-the-road kind of questions.


Running so Far

I asked Doug how long they have had their prototype running continuously, and he said that the "6-months" statement from their East-of-Mississippi guy, Chris, was a misunderstanding. They've been working on it for 6 months. Doug said the longest they've had it running continuous has been 24 hours, twice.


UL Approval Matters

I've done some inquiring into UL requirements for systems of this ilk and have learned that if something is powering a house, in the U.S., it has to be UL-approved. This is especially true if it is going to be run through a grid-tie with battery back-up, which sends energy out onto the grid.

Even though the grid-tie with battery back-up only sees the battery, not what is powering the battery, regulations require that the battery charging system be UL approved. My friend Randy Tolbert, who was my landlord before we moved to our present location, has installed solar systems for about three decades. He's been running his home on a grid-tie with battery back-up for 15 years. He says you can't even tell when the grid goes down. The electricity automatically switches from the grid to the battery, without a hiccup. Then when the grid comes back up, it waits five minutes before syncing back up to the grid.

Unfortunately, there are not presently grid-interface connects for AC-producing systems, to do net metering. Net metering systems that use batteries shut the entire system down in the case of a grid outage. 

A UL listing is not required if a system is being used as an off-grid genset. But in that case, the customer needs to sign a waiver understanding that the system is not UL-approved yet, and that the system is experimental/beta testing; accepting responsibility for any problems that might occur. The UL listing is primarily a liability waiver, saying that the system has been tested to comply with the UL safety regulations, so any problems are going to be a result of intentional misuse by the user.

Dustin explained that the "transfer switch" that they were planning to use with their "Black Box" does not send their power to the grid. It only serves as a relay so that if their black box doesn't provide enough power for the home, then the transfer switch will pull from the grid to augment what is needed. But that scenario will not be able to be implemented until their "black box" is UL approved, otherwise people could be jeopardizing their home warranties or home insurance.

That said, what I was planning to do with my MidTech Black Box system, once I get it from them, once it tests out, and I raise enough funds to get one, is to use it as a genset to power things in the home separate from the home wiring.

If the world fell apart, and the grid went down for an extended period, prior to getting a system is UL approved, I could turn off the breaker to the grid so the house is not connected to the gird, then backfeed the black box into the home wiring through a male-male connection from the genset to a 20-amp portion of the home (a regular outlet that is hooked to a 20-amp fuse); and this would enable me to back feed up to 2.4 kW before the fuse would trip. But that would only effect those portions of the home that are on that leg of the service panel. If I wanted the whole home to be powered, I'd have to run an extension cord from the genset to an outlet that is on the other leg of the service panel. But I wouldn't be able to power anything that pulled more than 2.5 kW, such as the electric dryer, air conditioner, electric water heater (ours is gas).


Update

Here is an excerpt from an email I received from Doug on [MONDAY =  today] January 20, 2014 8:53 AM [Mountain] (slightly edited)

Also anyone wanting to view the project ONCE IT IS COMPLETED will be required to sign a notice of disclosure [NDA] as well as a non compete clause. I have also consulted an attorney about drawing up a non compete purchase agreement contract so that our technology cannot be used [for reverse engineering] once it is purchased. You will be updated as that progresses.

We are also mulling around the idea of a formal release of the product upon its completion and to invite everyone at that time to inspect the completed project, because of the overwhelming response of individuals flying in from around the world wanting to inspect the black box.

We were informed that the electronics would be delivered today so Dustin and myself will be late at again tonight to install the components. We will wait until tomorrow to do our testing so no mistakes will be made due to lack of sleep. As usual once we begin installing we will not answer our phones until it is complete. Thank you for your understanding in all of this and we will be the future of energy.

Doug Myers


Fundraiser for Trip...

I really appreciate the infusion you provided to enable my recent trip to Oakland to visit Brillouin, etc. I hope you agree that was a worth-while trip. I'm not even done reporting on all the great things we learned while we were there. We've also pulled in some funds toward purchasing a MidTech unit and transport.


After we get the green light from Doug (when they are comfortable with their system to begin selling it, and therefore will want our validation to help in the process), I would like to fly out there as well, to be part of that, documenting it and witnessing it.

We'd appreciate it if you can chip in toward that trip, as well as our regular up-keep needs. Getting a round-trip ticket from SLC - Wichita just a day away costs around $900.

# # #

Progress

Jan. 19; Manuel M; US: $20
Jan. 20; Chris Loder (son of Ted) offered his frequent flyer miles to cover my flight

Note what Doug Myers of MidTech said:
"We are also mulling around the idea of a formal release of the product upon its completion and to invite everyone at that time to inspect the completed project, because of the overwhelming response of individuals flying in from around the world wanting to inspect the black box. "

This suggests to me that they won't open it for "inspection" by Sterling or any one else probably, until the product reaches "completion" -- could be some time off.  I've packed some gear; don't expect to use it this week as previously expected.
(I wrote to Sterling to avoid too much hype! -- I think this is a problem.]

[Slider2732]

If I understand things correctly and the main problem was an overheating component...then how difficult would it be to bolt it to the filing cabinet type casing ?
Maybe that's an idea

[PhysicsProf]

  The main problem IMO is that excessive "hype" surprised and then scared the MidTech company.  Pesn.
People wanting to fly in and "see" it...

[Slider2732]

Ahhh, more like thinking time on what to do.
They've said it breaks no energy rules and perhaps it really is just a very well designed and made piece of somewhat conventional kit. Conventional to us that is.

[PhysicsProf]

Report at PESN regarding this:

The last update we got from MidTech was on January 22: "As they got to replacing things in the circuit board, they found out that they had to replace everything in it, upgrading all the components to a heavier grade. They'll be putting it in the box and testing it out, and hope to have it running by tonight."

After a few days, I sent them an email suggesting that they go back to what worked and get a validation of that, which could bring in some good funding for the R&D needed to get it ready for production.

For what it's worth, the energy read my wife gets on MidTech is that they ran into some issues and the are not focusing much time on the Black Box. From what I know, they have other business to handle with their solar and wind products. Doug's voice message says: "If you are calling about the black box, leave your name and phone number, and one of our staff will get back to you."

-- SilverThunder 04:22, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

On a personal note, I was diagnosed yesterday as having a tick-borne disease... ugh.  Lots of pains, swelling, rash, fatigue for weeks now.
Tests in the works; treatment with doxycylin started yesterday.

[PhysicsProf]

"MidTech Energy We are still here sorry guys trying to finish up a couple of hybrid jobs and the black box very long days."  - note at Facebook 6 hours ago.

https://www.facebook.com/midtech.energy

[Chet K]

Steve
I saw your note on Diagnosis,I had an opportunity to get "Lyme" Disease here about 5 years ago [connecticuts state disease]
I could have done with out the experience ....
never got formal treatment The doctor told me the rash was poison Ivy .... took me 6-7 months to finally get to the point where you were and the test was positive ,I felt like choking the doctor [I didn't tho ]and yes the fatigue can be overpowering at times,keep your immune system strong and don't stress your body with to much exercise !

At least you have a Diagnosis and treatment.

and the symptoms should start to subside.

Chet

[Slider2732]

Yes, best wishes for a speedy recovery Steve !

It seems MidTech have gone a little quiet.

Might I ask something in regard to Lyme disease then ? your account is eerily familiar Chet.
Last year I got a rash on the back of one leg, thought it was a spider bite. It was tender, about 3" circumference and red/blotchy. The skin disturbingly hardened in that area but didn't flake away.
It took several months to repair and I just passed it off as a spider bite.
However, the fatigue problems were debilitating. They returned a month or so after the leg healed and lasted until a couple of months ago. Even going to pick up the mail from the front yard would see a condition best described as running out of battery power throughout the body. My legs would slow in movement and each step became more difficult to make.
It was like walking through knee high mud.
Multi-vitamins are what I deemed to have fixed it, then blaming processed foods as well as the spider.
Am quite sure that I could have blamed a number of things depending on the self treatment, but would have included an arachnid somewhere.

[Chet K]

Mark
Go get the test ...

The joints are supposed to be the first place to notice [the Knees specifically]
yes you end up feeling lie a beat mule ready for the glue factory.....

However I eliminated alot of the unhealthy things from my diet [sugar salt etc etc] and try not to overstress my imune system

I'm good now!!
thx
Chet

[PhysicsProf]

Blood-test results came back -- its actually Rocky Mtn Spotted Fever (RMSF).  Antibiotics + lots of water and vita-C .

Yeah, MidTech has gone quiet.  The Brazilians are still there!  (similar ?? )

[Centraflow]

Did not know where to post this but after I looked at the pesn: site and noticed his number one spot was Platinum Investments SA, I had a look at their site.

I know him, ex neighbour of mine from La Cañada, my previous house here in Valencia. They are set up on the technology estate in Paterna (suburb of Valencia about 40km from me now), I am wondering where the money comes from!! very expensive setup there

My opinion is there might be a lot of money laundering going on there "just my opinion and could be totally wrong". I have registered on their site and waiting for approval, been two days now and nothing!! I might not be welcome!!! The reason I am saying this is the Vegas link also seems a lot of government participation judging by the logo's on the site, they are all corrupt here

There generator seems to be like a B**ini driven by a hydraulic motor, the latter for sure is the case, and the former is a magnet/coil setup, nothing unusual here. I know there is a trip being planed by you know who, I could save ALL that money if I could get in there. Steven you have influence there don't you?

Any way we will see if my registration is accepted

Regards

Mike

P S hope you get better soon Steven

[Slider2732]

Very interesting post Mike.
I hope all is well and appearances are just deceptive. But, you know the land and the ways.

Being as they said they basically stumbled on the circuit to use, the motor + Bended knee circuit seems so likely. The output then going to a rectifier/amperage transformer section to convert the high voltage output. That would be the 3 stages, with a feed off the circuit back to the battery.
Am thinking they read up about similar systems and backed away a bit, some folks online can be very vocal about their views on such systems.
That transformer section would be interesting to see, if that's what's going on. It must be doing something to cause a heat problem. I say run it anyway and open the door on it, get some warm air in winter. Or water cool it, leading to/from any outside pipework and help prevent freezing


@Chet - if it returns I certainly will. Not got a doctor y'see and we might be moving to Texas in the not to distant future.