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Author Topic: Refrigerant Powered Engine (gasoline replacement instructions pdf)  (Read 39789 times)

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Mike suggested a scroll compressor might be best suited to this system, but no efficiency figure given that I can find with a quick search. Compression efficiency of gas back to liquid will be critical in the operation of a closed loop RPE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scroll_compressor#Efficiency

http://www.emersonclimate.com/en-US/products/compressors/scroll_compressors/Pages/scroll_compressors.aspx


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Dear all.

That was a particularly interesting afternoon indeed !!

I am now more eager than ever to start upon a replication. Many thanks to Tinman, Centraflow and evolvingape for the chat and subsequent Skype conversation !!

After having a chat with my friend at the LPG conversion garage last week who suggested the use of a Petrol/Gasoline injector in place of the LPG injector. BTW nothing was mentioned about what I was doing !!  ;) His suggestion based upon the injectors being able to handle a liquid up to a pressure of 6 to 7 Bar.

I now have most of the ingredients to hand still need to find a condenser and a few fittings !!

Cheers Grum.


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I was musing to myself and had an idea for this system..

Why don't we run an ICE generator with an LPG conversion as a heat engine, basically burning the LPG like normal. Radiator temperature should be around 80 - 90 C..

Then we run a second ICE generator with an RPE conversion and loop the two systems together so that we can take advantage of all that heat from the LPG ICE.

Should create quite a large thermal potential difference and both systems run off same fuel, but with opposing heat cycles.

What do you guys think ?


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I was musing to myself and had an idea for this system..

Why don't we run an ICE generator with an LPG conversion as a heat engine, basically burning the LPG like normal. Radiator temperature should be around 80 - 90 C..

Then we run a second ICE generator with an RPE conversion and loop the two systems together so that we can take advantage of all that heat from the LPG ICE.

Should create quite a large thermal potential difference and both systems run off same fuel, but with opposing heat cycles.

What do you guys think ?
I had a very similar thought after our convo yesterday. But i was thinking of using a 2 cylinder engin,and have one cylinder run of the LPG,and the other on the RPE.If we use an engine that has the two cylenders side by side,then the heat from the cylinder running on LPG,would heat the cylinder running the RPE system.


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Hi Guy's

just got back home from a 4hr round trip to our apartment at the beach, and I hear Chet has been chatting up my wife ;D sorry to miss you

That idea is quite good, but still my concern is leakage. This system must be 100% gas tight, if it is and we have a good delta T we will be in business, the heat sink could be a home made solar panel with some copper tubes painted matt black. In theory a 5:1 thermal to power ratio will produce excess even with power train losses.

So we must sort out the leakage problem first of all.

regards

Mike 8)


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Good stuff Tinman I like it, however I see your idea as phase two of the project. An integrated engine with both LPG and RPE complimenting..

Phase one would be to build two separate 2 stroke engines, one running on LPG and the other running on RPE. The cooling systems must be cross connected so the hot water from the LPG runs around the RPE engine, and the RPE (cold engine) coolant system runs around the the LPE (hot) engine. In a single engine the coolant fluid channels are connected and you will lose your heat energy potential difference.

The other concern I have with your idea Tinman is that it may be hard to initially balance the energy going into each cylinder causing shear forces on the crank under load as it hunts, potentially leading to critical failure. It is doable, however I feel it will be better as a custom designed engine so you can separate the micro channels and have two thermal systems in the same engine block.

So in summary split the LPE hot water into two streams, one that goes round the RPE warming it up, and the other that directly heats the RPE exhaust gas before compressor condenser to maximise heat energy transferred to the refrigerant gas and thus maximising the reduction in compression costs back to liquid.

Probably best run as a hybrid engine. The LPE providing drive as normal, and the RPE charging a KERS type flywheel system and running an alternator. So when you run out of fuel (LPE which will deplete), you can still drive on stored electrical energy and electric drive motors to the LPG refuel station.

As an add on Mike, the RPE is the heatsink engine, and the thermal input providing high delta T is the LPE hot engine. The potential difference could well be in the 80 - 90 Centigrade range.. plenty!


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EA, agreed.

Can we put some ideas forward on sealing. When I can get a minute I will redraw that hand sketch so as it can be seen ;D

regards

Mike 8)


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EA, agreed.

Can we put some ideas forward on sealing. When I can get a minute I will redraw that hand sketch so as it can be seen ;D

regards

Mike 8)

Dear Mike.

I really don't think the Piston sealing is much of an issue!!  I have been using Nitrile "O" rings in place of piston rings on some of my Model engines for years now. And yes, they actually  survive temperatures well above their 100 deg C rating !!
For the RPE however, we are not going to see temperatures anywhere near that. As I see it, it will be the valve stems that will require attention. But possibly by using valve stem seals in reverse i.e. just below the underside of the head in the inlet/outlet tracts would probably seal the engine towards your 100% goal.

Cheers Grum.


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EA, agreed.

Can we put some ideas forward on sealing. When I can get a minute I will redraw that hand sketch so as it can be seen ;D

regards

Mike 8)
Mike-see reply 26 on this thread.
Quote: I have been giving this some thought,and think i have a cheap way to convert a standard gas engine to do what you want it to do.The biggest problem is like ION mentioned-blow by. If we take a standard single cylinder engine(e.g,honda,chonda,robbin,etc),there would be enough meat on the piston to remove the standard piston ring's,and machine one of the piston ring grooves to take a hydraulic ram seal. The cylinder can then be polished using a buffer disk of right diameter,and cutting compound- used to cut and polish car paint.This will give the cylinder a mirror finish to ensure a perfect seal.These seal's will handle a quite high temp,and i dont think this type of setup would generate much heat at all within the engine-in fact, i think there would be freezing problem's insted.

This is well within our capability,and will work just fine.


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Agreed Tinman, sealing should not be a problem. There is a wide range of O ring sizes available and the temperature range is more than suitable for what we want to do:

http://www.bearingboys.co.uk/O-rings-1050-c

http://www.bearingboys.co.uk/O-rings_Technical_Data-60-a

A couple of small 2 stroke generators with water cooling would be ideal.. if I could find them.. struggling at the moment all the 2 strokes seem to be air cooled and the 4 strokes are water cooled.

Might be a good idea to add a couple of back up rings in a suitable material as well.

Not found what I am looking for yet but these two designs are interesting:

http://thekneeslider.com/ecomotors-opoc-two-stroke-engines-opposed-piston-opposed-cylinder/

http://thekneeslider.com/pivotal-piston-water-cooled-two-stroke-engine/


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Everyman Standing Order 01: In the Face of Tyranny; Everybody Stands, Nobody Runs.
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A 2 stroke engine??. What about the transfer and exaust port's in the cylinder ?.


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I had less information when I posted before about the two stroke, now I have more information and need to reassess. I will sleep on it, but I am no longer thinking 2 stroke..

Thanks for pointing that out Tinman.  O0


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Everyman Standing Order 01: In the Face of Tyranny; Everybody Stands, Nobody Runs.
Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security.
Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.
   
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