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Author Topic: The in's and outs of the William Skinner machine  (Read 16447 times)

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Here is what has started all this, the newsreel film

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxIRaJlTD4Y&feature=youtu.be

If anyone can improve the quality it would be appreciated O0

regards

Mike 8)


---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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Here are some photos

regards

Mike 8)



---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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Here are my three sections of the machine, the top section has not got the four wheels at the ends of the cross shaft, they are needed for it to work properly and was only draw like that to give a simple explination ;)

regards

Mike 8)


---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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There are various enlarged looped videos done by Luc "gotoluc" on the OU forum of different parts of the film, I have not posted here as they are Luc's work and very well done.

There are various persons trying to replicate "parts", but I feel that for this to work as designed, it should be all or nothing ;)

Each of the three sections has a particular function and they interreact with one another without affecting the motor drive, remember the drive is only 1/8hp and a very thin resin coated cord as the belt to the drive converter.

If the center drive weights are not moved by hand to start the machine, the top drive cams just rotate on the ends of the shafts. The ends of the shafts get a 180 degree little push by the cams only when the cams and cross bars line up in a straight line and the middle weights are applying a back force on the levers, "quite brilliant", a little push on the swing syndrome to keep it going :D

The real power only comes from the falling bottom mass, and why they are tall, it is the apparent falling over of the top of those masses. The max power output will be subject to the weight of those masses, pass it and the system will go out of sync.

The system free wheels when not loaded, but as more load is applied, the dynamics of those bottom masses change and increases torque, it is self regulating up to the max differential of the masses to power take off.

I am trying to write a pdf of all this with complete explanations and drawings, it will take some time to do properly.

You have to think of the bottom masses being 3 dimensionally moved and changing the aspect of centripetal, centrifugal forces in relation to gravity :D  not really a flywheel, even though some think that way.

more to come

regards

Mike 8)


---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   
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It's turtles all the way down
Centraflow:

I admire your ability to make some sense out of those photo's which to me are quite undecipherable.

Somewhere, there must be an operating principle detailed enough to make a small proof of concept device.

Absent that, I would not be interested in building a full scale model as I lack the welder and materials. A small scale proof of concept should be within reach though.

The newspaper article that was available from the period would not open on my Foxit pdf reader. If anyone has a copy that works, I would be grateful.

Surely Skinner must have applied for a patent application or descriptive notes must be saved somewhere.

Does anyone have a plausible hypothesis for how this thing worked?

Regards, ION


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   

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Just as a side line

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eQp4grGdqY

regards

Mike 8)


---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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*****

Posts: 2081
Centraflow:

I admire your ability to make some sense out of those photo's which to me are quite undecipherable.

Somewhere, there must be an operating principle detailed enough to make a small proof of concept device.

Absent that, I would not be interested in building a full scale model as I lack the welder and materials. A small scale proof of concept should be within reach though.

The newspaper article that was available from the period would not open on my Foxit pdf reader. If anyone has a copy that works, I would be grateful.

Surely Skinner must have applied for a patent application or descriptive notes must be saved somewhere.

Does anyone have a plausible hypothesis for how this thing worked?

Regards, ION

Hi ION,

Yes, it works on gravity on the basis that the center of gravity reference to the mass is continually changing, and so the mass naturally follows. The basis of being OU is that the center of gravity in relation to that mass can be moved with very little energy in contrary to a lot of energy being needed to move the mass. Quite clever and not breaking any laws as such.

No patent can be found apart from his plate heat exchanger. Noting the date being 1939, it was just as war was breaking out. One thing is he went to a lot of trouble to make that machine, and looks just about all hand made by him.

If I can find a good fabrication shop here that would be willing to invest with others and build it, I will do the plans and oversee it. I have spent hours going over this and I am quite confident it does as stated by Skinner.

It is not that complicated at all, infact quite simple and with modern day bearings and CV joints etc, could be built quite cheaply.

Regards

Mike 8)


---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   
Group: Elite
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Posts: 3429
It's turtles all the way down
Hi Mike

If the principle is sound, and if it is scalable you might first want to build a 1/10th scale model to test the principle. (save some money before moving on to a really big machine)

These days it is rather easy to measure power in and  power out. You could use a small toy motor to spin it up, and another identical motor as an output generator driving a load resistor.

These are easy to characterize for efficiency, especially if you have two identical motors.


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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Hi Mike all very Interesting particularly as what seems hundreds of years ago I was lectured by Laithwaite  when a student. The RI lectures really finished the poor guy .. tptb had as much time for 'free energy' then as they do now. Here are those banned Christmas lectures given for School children in 1974 that did Eric the inventor and developer of the linear railway  so very much damage .. but first _
The theme for his Christmas Children's lecture  was 'Alice through the looking glass', In those halcyon days Eric might have learnt to beware of the Jabberwock but I'm afraid  he quickly also had to learn to beware tptb (The powers that be) and the men in black.  

‘Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
   Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
   And the mome raths outgrabe.

“Beware the Jabberwock, my son
   The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
   The frumious Bandersnatch!”

He took his vorpal sword in hand;
   Long time the manxome foe he sought—
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
   And stood awhile in thought.

And, as in uffish thought he stood,
   The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
   And burbled as it came!

One, two! One, two! And through and through
   The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
   He went galumphing back.

“And hast thou slain the Jabberwock?
   Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!”
   He chortled in his joy.

‘Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
   Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
   And the mome raths outgrabe. Lewis Carroll


 Here then is Eric .' The engineer through the looking glass' 1 of 7 .. I hope you can spare the time to watch at least a little of the others.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnNUTOxHoto

regarding fabrication of this bit of brilliance Mike   well .. from little acorns giant oaks grow ...... perhaps these bits can fit together and be watered .. It so happens Mike that the guy I was writing about  owns a pretty large fabrication shop.  He is also no slouch at Technical drawing himself. (I suspect Chet is giving serious consideration to him and his work as I write) Like all of us studying this subject (including Laithwaite in his time) he's a little cash strapped and very hampered but I'm sure he'd be more than happy to fabricate at a very low cost particularly as its an area he's au fait in anyway.  Still perhaps I get ahead of myself but with a little injection and organisation  .. well I'm sure you get my drift  O0
Best wishes as always Duncan  
« Last Edit: 2014-07-02, 09:54:08 by Duncan »


---------------------------
How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ?
http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf
whilst we know little .. friends remember,
In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
D. Erasmus
   

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Hi Mike

If the principle is sound, and if it is scalable you might first want to build a 1/10th scale model to test the principle. (save some money before moving on to a really big machine)

These days it is rather easy to measure power in and  power out. You could use a small toy motor to spin it up, and another identical motor as an output generator driving a load resistor.

These are easy to characterize for efficiency, especially if you have two identical motors.

Yes it would be the way to go to start with, though a reasonable size is needed (weight) to get the real advantage I think.

Seems I have got too close to the truth, I am getting some threats and also been removed from the EF forum, well, read only, and I am asking why to Aaron at the moment!!

Also there is a movement away from the actual way it works, the most important part being the input drive to start with.

I need an enhanced view of the first 4-5sec of the video and looking at the top drive, I can see it but seems nobody else, very strange, can anyone do it here on this forum?

thanks

regards

Mike 8)


---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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Posts: 2081
Thanks Duncan

when I have a minute I will look at the videos, I just have too much on my plate at the moment, and shortly off to France as we do every year for a break with my father in law and do a bit of wild boar shooting as he has a special permit for this time of year to keep the numbers down.

regards

Mike 8)


---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   
Sr. Member
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Posts: 407
Happy day's .. enjoy Michael ... There's a few bore's and nay sayers on various forums I would certainly give you a licence to shoot .. with my blessings!  O0
« Last Edit: 2014-07-02, 20:49:17 by Duncan »


---------------------------
How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ?
http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf
whilst we know little .. friends remember,
In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
D. Erasmus
   

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Posts: 2081
Here is the top in a loop, not very good, but can see the bar moving and the cams on the end of the shaft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIJ2oioB42M&feature=youtu.be

private video, please keep it so

regards

Mike 8)


---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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Posts: 2081
This shows the gimbal and the levers turning, the gimbal is a very important part to the system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szShmgLTGFk

regards

Mike 8)


---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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Posts: 1946


Buy me a cigar
Dear Mike.

The more I look at this machine the more I am reminded of Eric Laithwaite's gyroscopic device !!  This has also been pointed out by Duncan.

How about this one ??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COP-gEVvaW8&index=1&list=PL2C537FF2BF0A03D8

It seems that keeping things in an out of balance state actually works !!

Cheers Graham.
   


---------------------------
Nanny state ? Left at the gate !! :)
   

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Dear Mike.

The more I look at this machine the more I am reminded of Eric Laithwaite's gyroscopic device !!  This has also been pointed out by Duncan.

How about this one ??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COP-gEVvaW8&index=1&list=PL2C537FF2BF0A03D8

It seems that keeping things in an out of balance state actually works !!

Cheers Graham.
   

Hi Graham

it has aspects of this, but no springs and it has a motor input just to give a push every 180 degrees. The output does not really see the input, all the output power comes from the bottom four weights only and is not a fly wheel.

When not loaded it idles, as a load is applied the dynamics of those weights change as the rotation slows under load, this causes a change in the middle weights causing a different angle which transmits back down to the bottom weights which try to maintain the RPM. The result is torque is increased on the output, quite brilliant. Naturally there is a maximum of load, it has a direct relation to the weight of those weights.

The system of 4 is in balance and so keeps vibration down to the minimum. You will see on my bottom drawing that all weights are kept at 180 degrees at all times, but depending on load the relation of middle weights to bottom weights changes as load is applied. Important is the middle weights must not overtake the bottom weights, if they do you need more weight on the bottom weights for the amount of power you are taking out.

The bottom weights are tall for a reason and that I will explain again. What is important is that top drive so as that push every 180 degrees is minimal (that is the only load on the motor apart from the drive to that point).

It is not a flywheel, that must be taken out of the equation from the start, and if someone thinks it is an out of balance flywheel, that's an item that does not exist, it would be more akin to a crank counter balance ;)

regards

Mike 8)


---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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Posts: 2081
A better drawn top drive A.

This is only one pair, there are two pairs, on the top section photo you can see the outer wheels, and on the video at 3-4sec you can see the cams turning on the end of the shafts. These are completely free turning, the push comes in sync with the middle weights coming around at the extream points of the shafts, and why to start it one of those weights is swung around by hand.

regards

Mike 8)


---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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Posts: 2081
Well after a long talk of what is going on with this machine (three days) with a prof: who is 100 times more intelligent than me, not hard ;D the machine works as an "ellipsoid of precession created by a permanently moving reference of space time coordinates" and comes down to "relativity". :D

His comment was in one word "brilliant"

I am now going to take an aspirin for my head :)

regards

Mike 8)
« Last Edit: 2014-07-03, 19:15:40 by Centraflow »


---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   
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Good work, Mike - very interesting approach.  
I'm looking forward to your notes when ready and will be happy to read them and comment.  
Agree with ION that a scale model would be great for testing...
Steve

PS - didn't Prof Laithwaite do some work with magnetism also?
PPS - yes, I checked and that's the same fellow.  Good stuff.
   

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Good work, Mike - very interesting approach.  
I'm looking forward to your notes when ready and will be happy to read them and comment.  
Agree with ION that a scale model would be great for testing...
Steve

PS - didn't Prof Laithwaite do some work with magnetism also?
PPS - yes, I checked and that's the same fellow.  Good stuff.

Hi Steve

yes Laithwaite was infact at one time a prof: at London Imperial College (uni), he was the inventor of the maglev, he has a lot of history.

There are various persons trying to build this machine, the problem is as always, nearly all go off on a tangent with their own ideas, that is not a replication.

I have gone down the path of working out how it works first and why, along with help from an old friend who is a prof: in astrophysics and mechanical engineering, the later part is how I got to know him.

We got our heads together, more him than I ;D and found out why it works, even before knowing it works, just a different but interesting approach O0

That said, I have mainly worked out all the system, still need to do some work on the top drive design, but it is nearly there and really exciting.

As my friend said in one word "brilliant", this Skinner had all the angles sorted out and built a one off that seems to have just disapeared, no patent, nothing apart from a mislaid path film and a very short press article.

regards

Mike 8)


---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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Posts: 2081
I have been sent this part document which primarily is to do with reactive power in mechanical systems. Still nobody really knows what is going on, this is a mathematical delve into reactive mechanical power.

My friend implies that this is as close as science will allow ;) and seems to apply to Sr. Skinner.

regards

Mike 8)

PS. read from example 2


---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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Posts: 2081
I am finding that on other forums there is a huge argument over whether the motion of the lever is circular or elliptical, it is infact both.

Here is my drawing of how it works, it is interactive with the center weight, which in turn is interreactive with the bottom weight/load.

More load produces more torque in the machine, quite brilliant, also it can't be over loaded, as more load is applied, the top lever will move more toward the center axis of the gimbal, when it hits that center then the drive just turns on the end of the lever.

regards

Mike 8)


---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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Posts: 2081
The above diagram is at the point when the machine overloads, as so no drive is connected as there is a center of axis from top through to output, the cam just turns on the end of the rod.

regards

Mike 8)


---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   
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Posts: 2990
   

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Posts: 2081
Hi Chet

That is a nice program, I have always said it is a resonant system, it is the only way.
Not much time atm, just so much to do, spare time is on the TPU, need to loop it back is my priority.

Regards

Mike


---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   
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