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OverUnity Research > Electrical / Electronic Theory and Learning Center > EM Theory > PERMEABILTY and PERMITTIVITY
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Author Topic: PERMEABILTY and PERMITTIVITY  (Read 30214 times)
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img  Grumpy
PERMEABILTY and PERMITTIVITY « on: 2010-05-13, 17:48:20 »

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Permeabilty is a measure of the magnetic force force required to polarize a medium magnetically:

u = 4pi x 10^-7 Newtons / Ampere^2

Permittivity is a measure of the electrical force require to polarize a medium electrically:

E = 8.85 x 10^-12 Farads / Meter

Permeabilty is like "pressure" (force per area)

Permittivity is like "density" (a scalar value)

What might we be able to accomplish by varying the "pressure" and "density" of a medium with very little expenditure of energy?
   
img  BEP
Re: PERMEABILTY and PERMITTIVITY « Reply #1 on: 2010-05-13, 20:14:39 »
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The only method I know of is with the leading edge of a pulse and resonance.
There are two resonances usable with leading edges. One is the time for rise.Next, is the number of pulse edges within the driven device. These  usaually fall near the aucoustic.
   
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Re: PERMEABILTY and PERMITTIVITY « Reply #2 on: 2010-05-13, 20:34:37 »

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Just for shits and giggles...

If charge has to be conserved, permittivity is Farads/meter and a Farad is Columb/volt, then permittivity is Columb/volt/meter.

If "meter" goes down then voltage must go up to conserve charge.  By changing "meter" you just magnified your voltage without changing the amount of charge.

Similar scenario with permeability which is Newtons/ampere^2
(for analogy, Pressure = force/area)
Make the area smaller and the pressure increases, or increase the force and the permeability or current must change.

Francis Nipher concluded from his experiments that an electrostatic field applied to a magnet increased the pereability of the air around the magnet.  Increasing the permeability results in increased force over the same area.

Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2010-05-13, 20:14:39
The only method I know of is with the leading edge of a pulse and resonance.
There are two resonances usable with leading edges. One is the time for rise.Next, is the number of pulse edges within the driven device. These  usaually fall near the aucoustic.

Are you saying that the leading edge of a pulse changes the properties of the medium it propagates through?
   
img  BEP
Re: PERMEABILTY and PERMITTIVITY « Reply #3 on: 2010-05-14, 00:12:17 »
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Quote from: Grumpy on 2010-05-13, 20:34:37
Are you saying that the leading edge of a pulse changes the properties of the medium it propagates through?

Not exactly.

I'm saying a sudden shock (or the leading edge of pulse with very short rise time) is analogous to a sudden impact. Such an impact can cause distortion of the medium where it travels. Hammer hits a bell. Bell flexes rapidly and is the source for ringing.

Electric pulse - wires move, flex metal distorts and perhaps more....
   
img  Ken
Re: PERMEABILTY and PERMITTIVITY « Reply #4 on: 2010-05-14, 02:17:35 »
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Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2010-05-14, 00:12:17

Electric pulse - wires move, flex metal distorts and perhaps more....

As an electrician, it is hard to make some helpers believe that wires in panel boards and switchboards need to be tied down bundled or strapped because once the electricity starts flowing the wires vibrate and move.

Usually I try to find the noisiest transformer in the place and ask them why its making noise. Then they are convinced.

 8)


"Its easy to turn electricity into light, sound , and motion. I will be impressed when someone can turn electricity into more electricity."
   
img  MileHigh
Re: PERMEABILTY and PERMITTIVITY « Reply #5 on: 2010-05-14, 03:13:13 »
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The bell is a mechanical LC resonator!  It's a mechanical "electric tank" circuit!
   
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Re: PERMEABILTY and PERMITTIVITY « Reply #6 on: 2010-05-14, 03:42:25 »
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Quote from: MileHigh on 2010-05-14, 03:13:13
The bell is a mechanical LC resonator!  It's a mechanical "electric tank" circuit!

Ding! Ding! Ding! You Got IT!

Alright, bad analogy from somebody as anal retentive as WW.

Hammer hits a bell head. Bell Head flexes rapidly and is the source for ringing in the ears.

Ok. I give up. I was trying to show the similarities between compression waves and pulse leading edges (ultra short rise time wave fronts).


   
img  MileHigh
Re: PERMEABILTY and PERMITTIVITY « Reply #7 on: 2010-05-14, 04:02:46 »
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WaveWatcher:

The mass of the bell is like the capacitance.  It's pretty much identical.

The stiffness of the metal of the bell is like the inductance.  Ditto about being identical.

When you hit a bell it is like injecting a pulse of current into the capacitor.  Then the capacitor discharges into the inductor, and then the inductor discharges into the capacitor, and so on and so on.

In the bell, the moving mass of the bell itself compresses the spring of the bell.  Then the spring of the bell discharges and makes the mass of the bell move.  The moving mass of the bell itself compresses the spring of the bell, and so on and so on.

In both cases the stored energy is bouncing back and forth between the mass/capacitance and the spring/inductance.

MileHigh
   
img  BEP
Re: PERMEABILTY and PERMITTIVITY « Reply #8 on: 2010-05-14, 11:15:55 »
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MH,

You are preaching to the choir but it is a very good explanation.

I have a pretty good understanding of these things but find it really difficult when trying to describe a LEM pulse. If folks can't see it in that little scope screen in their mind's eye - it can't exist, but they do.

A LEM pulse may not appear on a scope but it can ring a bell. Normally, they only cause white spots in your vision or headaches  :D
   
img  Grumpy
Re: PERMEABILTY and PERMITTIVITY « Reply #9 on: 2010-05-14, 17:45:20 »

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Quote from: MileHigh on 2010-05-14, 03:13:13
The bell is a mechanical LC resonator!  It's a mechanical "electric tank" circuit!

a bell creates longitudinal waves in the medium (air)

Does an impact excited circuit also create longtitudinal waves in the medium?
   
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Re: PERMEABILTY and PERMITTIVITY « Reply #10 on: 2010-05-14, 18:02:22 »

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what effect does the pulse have on the mass of the impact excited coil?

What effect does this changing mass have on the space around the coil?
   
img  MileHigh
Re: PERMEABILTY and PERMITTIVITY « Reply #11 on: 2010-05-14, 22:46:01 »
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WaveWatcher:

What's an "LEM" pulse?

Grumpy:

Quote
Does an impact excited circuit also create longtitudinal waves in the medium?
If you mean the rest of the circuit by "medium" then typically the answer is no.  I am talking about a typical circuit or motor that experiments build around here.  The circuit is very small compared to the wavelengths in the signal so there are no waves.  Every part of an electrical node in the circuit is at the same potential, so you can ignore any wave effects.  A computer motherboard is a different story, and you do have to deal with waves going down the signal traces.

Quote
what effect does the pulse have on the mass of the impact excited coil?
No effects.

MileHigh
   
img  BEP
Re: PERMEABILTY and PERMITTIVITY « Reply #12 on: 2010-05-15, 13:16:47 »
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Quote from: MileHigh on 2010-05-14, 22:46:01
WaveWatcher:

What's an "LEM" pulse?


This is the best explanation, I've seen posted, of the most common example: http://www.montalk.net/notes/longitudinal-waves.
>>Edit: I don't agree with all of his ideas. One detail about LEM I find untrue is "Notice also that there is no vorticity in this field, and therefore no magnetic field".
Rather, there is vorticity and that rotation appears in the travel of charge motion and a magnetic spin-wave. This vorticity only exists with such a wave that is not from a point-source, such as a sphere. Any LEM that is directional or multi-directional (not from a point-source) will have rotation in the electric and magnetic potential. Any LEM from a point-source is not LEM but simple radiation of charge potential. (I believe any magnetic from a point-source is self-cancelling.)

I think most will agree a spin-wave or circular polarization (as simple and common as circular polarization is) is denied to exist or beyond many experimenter's capabilities to detect.
>>End Edit

For more in-depth info you could purchase the complete text of the pictured document.

I find it more fun to build ways to produce them.

If your scope is faster than most scopes owned by a home experimenter you may see an LEM pulse as a single vertical line. Displaying any more characteristics is difficult and requires the understanding that not all scope traces are obtained by making an electric-only connection to points where things of interest aren't happening. i.e. the active instead of passive device.

« Last Edit: 2010-05-15, 14:37:53 by WaveWatcher »
   
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Re: PERMEABILTY and PERMITTIVITY « Reply #13 on: 2010-05-17, 04:16:26 »
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"What might we be able to accomplish by varying the "pressure" and "density" of a medium with very little expenditure of energy?


We accomplish wave propagation."

Doesn't Grumpy's question define a compression wave as well as a transverse wave?

EM,

I would think if your oscillator experienced a change in space then the operator of that oscillator experienced the same and would not see a difference in operation. Only an observer outside the disturbance would see a change in oscillator operation.
I can also imagine if the oscillator was LC based then it would shift frequency when placed in a magnetic field density change.

An increase in density would create a downward shift in frequency and a decrease in density an upward shift in frequency.
   
img  poynt99
Re: PERMEABILTY and PERMITTIVITY « Reply #14 on: 2010-05-17, 13:18:53 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
It might be an idea to have a "level" with you at these places. It's quite possibly an illusion. The place I've been, and the one that appears in the photo are on sloped terrain, and one can get "disoriented" and hence fooled by what "seems" level, when it may not be.

Same goes for the apparent "ball rolling up-hill" effect often demo'd at these places.

.99
   
img  Grumpy
Re: PERMEABILTY and PERMITTIVITY « Reply #15 on: 2010-05-17, 14:08:21 »

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Quote from: MileHigh on 2010-05-14, 22:46:01
No effects.

MileHigh

Don't be so sure of that.  Mass and volume might vary like other so-called constants.

So, Francis Nipher discovered that a electrostatic field increases the permeability of the space around a magnet.  If you impose a moving region of electrostatic potential, within a magnetic field, then you would have something akin to a moving magnet, a very very fast moving magnet, and all you do is move HV potential around in a circle.

Rate of change in potential per unit time probably also factors in.  Basically you wind up with a swirling region of space with a crap-load of energy as long as you keep the ES field changing and the magnetic field turned on.
« Last Edit: 2010-05-17, 14:23:50 by Grumpy »
   
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Re: PERMEABILTY and PERMITTIVITY « Reply #16 on: 2010-05-17, 21:27:38 »
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Grumpy,

Place a planar(single layer only) coil between the plates of a capacitor. Use a Z meter to measure the impedance or inductance of the coil. Apply a medium voltage across the capacitor plates and measure the coil again.
The applied voltage to the plates should be stable and well filtered.
Do the opposite. Apply a static magnetic field to the coil.
What you should see is the coil in the electrostatic field shows a lower inductance than the coil with no potential across the plates. Placing the coil in a magnetostatic field increases the inductance. The metal of the plates or magnet will effect the results.

How Niper saw the change is beyond me. Unless the plates and the coil have a very large area the change is small. Same for the magnetic test.

   
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Re: PERMEABILTY and PERMITTIVITY « Reply #17 on: 2010-05-17, 22:10:42 »
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To summarize: I can believe Niper's claim but did he know applying such a charge, across the equatorial magnetic plane, invokes Lorentz. The charges, during separtion and equalization, would be rotating. Rotation of charge does strange things, not magic but interesting.

Also, his work adds support to my understanding that electrostatic and magnetostatic are like two sides of a coin.
An analogy is sponge and water. You squeeze a wet spong and water is displaced. You drench a dry sponge with water the sponge expands. I consider magnetic the sponge and electostatic like water.
Sorry for the wordyness. Back in the ER waiting room again. 
   
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Re: PERMEABILTY and PERMITTIVITY « Reply #18 on: 2010-05-17, 22:28:09 »

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Here are two pages of Nipher's article:

If this effect can be increased then it may lead to interesting results.

First try a static electric field on WW's plates (see above) and then replace the plates with coils and pulse them to create a pulsing HV field across the collector coil - BAM! - instant TPU!

Remember when SM placed his clip-on meter inside the TPU and stated that a very strong magnetic field was there?
   
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Re: PERMEABILTY and PERMITTIVITY « Reply #19 on: 2010-05-17, 23:18:00 »
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First off, it wouldn't be BAM. It would be KABOOM! 8)
Maybe even 3.147 KABOOMS.

Second, the clamp was closed. A charge field would not read unless it was rotating at a very high rate and high potential. I will not place my hand in such a field. The only other field I know of, which may cause a reading, would be a radial magnetic rotating field (sudo rotation). Of course, current flowing through the clamp will also cause a reading.
So, create a rotating electrostatic or radial magnetostatic field or make current flow through air with no wire. Your choice 8). None of those options seem easy.
   
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Re: PERMEABILTY and PERMITTIVITY « Reply #20 on: 2010-05-19, 10:53:50 »
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I Hope none of what I stated is taken as solutions to a TPU or other free energy devices. Some of it is cause for interesting experiments but none have been "THE' solution. 
   
img  Grumpy
Re: PERMEABILTY and PERMITTIVITY « Reply #21 on: 2010-05-19, 14:09:06 »

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What is invoked during a change that is not invoked when in a static state? 

Look at every generator and every induction device - all involve a state of change be it a changing field or position.  Even a battery and capacitor involve particles changing.
   
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Re: PERMEABILTY and PERMITTIVITY « Reply #22 on: 2010-05-19, 23:14:53 »
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Any conversion or change requires motion, particle level or higher.

Anyone know of any totally static system which can convert energy?

That would also decribe a couple of my brother-in-laws. Do absolutely nothing but expect a paycheck  :(
« Last Edit: 2010-05-20, 01:09:28 by WaveWatcher »
   
img  szaxx
Re: PERMEABILTY and PERMITTIVITY « Reply #23 on: 2010-05-19, 23:55:44 »
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Hi All,
What about using a pair of nested tetrahedrons. To generate the rotation in 2 opposing directions for the magnetic and two plates external with phase shifting HV to generate the electrostatic rotating field?
Anyone got details of the Nieper ring
Component?
Keeley net circa 1994.
Im not being too successful with details on the latter and there must be some interaction with permeability and permitivity. As electrogravitics plays a part in this one if the info supplied is correct. It may be an interesting device to replicate.
   
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Re: PERMEABILTY and PERMITTIVITY « Reply #24 on: 2010-05-20, 01:20:03 »
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Quote from: szaxx on 2010-05-19, 23:55:44
What about using a pair of nested tetrahedrons.

Sounds like it should do something interesting.

A few years back I wound one coil within another. Each looked like a wire-frame of a soccer ball. The smallest unexpected effect was strange warbling tones from the wire movement. The most fun part was during very high drive. It tore itself apart in about 3 seconds. The watch in the center froze in time (the mechanical parts were busted by the vibration  :-[ ).
 
   
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